Your point is freakin gospel to me man, if you knew me personally you'll see how odd it is for me to be trying to convince you of the importance of a binary thinking on a subject. I don't disagree with the rule, I assert the exception, the base point or the ground we all stand upon to maintain civility.
I think something is still lost in translation, let's work with an example, just so I can make sure we understand each other right and just completely disagreeing. Do you think the treatment of Westboro baptist church as social pariahs is wrong? Do you think they should be given a broader stage to share their ideas?
I'm glad we have some common ground, here, because I have a lot of respect for your opinions and your point of view. I
As for the Westboro Baptist Church, great example; no I don't at all think their treatment as social pariahs is necessarily wrong, but I think they should have whatever stage anyone else has.
My whole point is only that the response is content neutral. We can't have this assumption that because I disagree with what is being said, I get carte blanche to respond however I want. I think there has to be some civility to this. We should be able to discuss ideas that are on their face abhorrent. The DISCUSSION ITSELF can't be abhorrent, and that's where we seem to be at this point.
I disagree, thoughts and ideas lead to action. That's not guess work, it's history. Hateful rhetoric works, it might take time but it grows and it works.
I think, respectfully, you're sort of dealing with the flood waters after the flood, and I'm trying to prevent the flood. In our reactionary, PC world, yes, thoughts lead to action, because we've been taught that's what we should do. I love him, and I like the sentiment, but the actual implementation of Billy Joel's "Don't take any shit from anyone!" is problematic. I should be able to say something like... "The performance of black students in schools is not entirely a function of "racism against blacks perpetrated by whites" without being branded a "racist". I'm not at all saying "blacks are inferior", or that "blacks are stupid". I am beginning a dialogue as to how we can get to a point where you can't tell the racial makeup of a school by their test scores. I should be able to say "there is equal blame to go around in the problem of how black people and cops interact" without being branded a racist. And yet... we're not at that place. If you're not entirely on board with the PC, "common sense" analysis, not only is your opinion dismissed, it is branded in a way that is chilling moving forward.
Seldom in history has commoners advocated the "piles of corpses", it just happens when you stand by and let the hateful thoughts spread, win hearts and mobilize into actions.
I recall XJDenton's recent post about people lashing out against PC are simply bothered that they cannot be rude or insult others without people slamming them for it, I agree with that.
Well, I agree there is some truth in XJDenton's comment, but he's still wrong in the sense that so what? Here's the thing: if HATEFUL IDEAS are so powerful, if IDEAS breed action, then so must "LOVING" (or whatever word you want to use) ideas breed action. If you have faith in your position, if you feel you are SO right, let your ideas stand. For every person that just wants to be an asshole to others, there are five or six (like me) that believe we are sugar-coating or outright ignoring crucial discussions that we HAVE TO HAVE to fix our society, out of a justified fear that people like XJDention will dismiss our ideas with the incendiary tag "RACISM!" without having the courtesy or facts to marshall a coherent intellectual counter. If my idea is HATEFUL, and it is so BAD an idea, you should be able to counter it without resorting to meta- ad hominem attacks like "OH, you just want to be an asshole!" or "You're a RACIST!". The argument against Hitler should have been one of science and fact and reason, not "Ooooh, you're BAD!, you're an ANTI-SEMITE!" I know, I had family (non-Jews, even though I have some Jewish in my family) that were gassed in Poland, and it's not as simple as history paints it. There WAS resistance, at least in Poland, and there WERE people saying "this isn't right, we don't want this." Ultimately, when it came out, there were MILLIONS of people that said "this isn't right" and millions who gave their lives to make sure it stopped. The course of man isn't perfect; unfortunately people get caught in the transition periods. Being "PC" doesn't prevent that from happening, and my argument is that it probably HELPS it, more than it prevents it.
I'm genuinely confused on whether or not you guys are getting what I'm saying, cause I agree with this. Yes meaningful dialogue, yes! I'm not talking about cursing out people who bring a discussion to the table! But when you come in with a certain attitude and presentation that only prompts aggression then an aggressive tone you shall get in return. And I think the "meaningful dialogue" gang is jumping ship with Trump's rhetoric and mannerisms empowering of the other gang.
Not sure I follow this; can you help me?
But I will say this: dismissing the idea - even if the presentation is flawed - as "rhetoric" and "hate speech" perpetuates the problem. Here's the point: when I go into a negotiation, there are three things that are understood by my team: one, we WILL walk away if we have to, two, we WILL have to make concessions, and so we frame our argument to accommodate that, and three, IT IS NOT PERSONAL, and emotion has no place at that table. Don't get me wrong; the aggressive racists are just as wrong here. It's not an effective way of making your point (and no, I'm not trying to help the racists be more effective). But that's their weak point. By dismissing them as "assholes" and "haters", and denying them their rights, you are reinforcing their belief system. They already feel attacked by a system that they don't see as fair, so to continue to attack is to reinforce the behavior. Come in, demand not SILENCE, but CIVILITY, have the dialogue, and keep the notion of "I'm OFFENDED!" out of it.