Sliding Doors .... What Might Have Been?

[bundy]

So the current luck/unlucky musicians thread have got me thinking how chance can play a part in later events. I'm sure all of us have made decisions which seem relatively insignificant at the time, but can have profound consequences later. This thread is to discuss musicians who've made some of these. No one died, chance didn't play a part and everything worked out well for for all involved. But how different things might have been. I've got three (4 actually, but 2 are variations). I'm interested in reading your thoughts on what might have been in each scenario (I have my own views for each, but I'll save them for the moment) as well as reading some of your own scenarios.

Scenario 1 - Late 1968
Tony Iommi is really impressed by the work ethic of Jethro Tull and the drive of Ian Anderson. He decides to stay on with Tull. His own band Earth really don't seem to be going anywhere and as for their vocalist.. well the guy was a clown at school and he still doesn't seem to have got his shit together.

Scenario 2 A - Late 1970
Fripp and Sinfield are impressed enough by the audition of a relatively unknown vocalist to hire him. The fact that Elton John is a pretty decent keyboard player is a bonus.

Scenario 2 B A few weeks later
Well that didn't work out, the guy was a bit too much of an extrovert, but this other bloke we've since auditioned might fit in a bit more. King Crimson recruit an unknown Bryan Ferry.

Scenario 3  1978
Ritchie Blackmore comes to the realisation that Ronnie James Dio really is a once in a generation vocalist. Dio keeps his place in Rainbow and both he and Blackmore commit to the long term future of the band.

[MirrorMask]

The Black Sabbath scenario - well, Black Sabbath fails to get ground, Iommi was instrumental in defining the sound of the band. Wether Iommi would have remained forever in Jethro Tull is debatable, maybe he would have left after some albums, but Ozzy / Geezer / Bill would have not had a similar version of Black Sabbath, with similar music and topics, with another guitarist.

The Rainbow scenario - Dio and Rainbow create more albums as good as the first three Rainbow albums, they replace the songs Blackmore would have written with Deep Purple from 1984 onwards and the Dio solo albums. They would have went on to become one of the greatest and most consistent bands of the scene, still remembered to this day. Dio would have never felt the need to join a non-existent Black Sabbath (are these situations all occouring in the same alternate universe?9.

[twosuitsluke]

I've wondered many times what would have happened to Metallica if they hadn't kicked Dave Mustaine out and Cliff hadn't died.


I mean Mustaine has created some amazing music but it seems a massive drive for him was to rival Metallica and that's where a lot of anger came from. Maybe part of the reason those early Megadeth albums were so good was because he felt he had something to prove?

I've read lots about how the other guys in Metallica looked up to Cliff, he was the one who listened to classical music and he was integral to what made albums like RtL and MoP more than a bog standard thrash album. I'd loved to have heard how their music would've progressed in the 90's with him on board. I mean Metallica reached higher heights than any other metal band so it seems hard to believe they could've possibly been any bigger than they were when the Black album dropped. If Dave and Cliff were in the band would they have recorded an album like the Black album? Probably not. I love to think about it though. I imagine that the band would have been more likely to fracture had Dave and Cliff been there. Metallica's success is clearly down to Het and Lars being able to take the reigns and call the shots. I imagine Cliff would've likely got bored of playing metal and wanted to try other musical projects. That's all just speculation though.

Any thoughts?

Edit: Sorry Bundy for not commenting on your scenarios by the way, I don't really have much to add I'm afraid.

[MirrorMask]

The problem with people dying is that they're preserved forever in history and we'll never see how they would grow up. Had Kevin Moore passed away during the Images and Words tour, we would have never known or even guessed he was tired of the band no longer than 2 years after.

We don't know how Cliff Burton would have grown up, if he had married and had so many kids to consider a family life, or maybe have so many marriage troubles that would have affected his personality... or simply how his tastes in music would have evolved.

[twosuitsluke]

The problem with people dying is that they're preserved forever in history and we'll never see how they would grow up. Had Kevin Moore passed away during the Images and Words tour, we would have never known or even guessed he was tired of the band no longer than 2 years after.

We don't know how Cliff Burton would have grown up, if he had married and had so many kids to consider a family life, or maybe have so many marriage troubles that would have affected his personality... or simply how his tastes in music would have evolved.

Yea, that is difficult and no one will ever know. I have just often wondered over the years. Feel free to just discuss the questions surrounding Mustaine then 

[Art]

Without Iommi, there would't be a Black Sabbath, and that could very well mean that Heavy Metal, at least as we know it, wouldn't exist. 

[twosuitsluke]

Without Iommi, there would't be a Black Sabbath, and that could very well mean that Heavy Metal, at least as we know it, wouldn't exist. 

Yea, it's hard to imagine how heavy metal would've evolved. I'd like to think it would've done but Doom Metal as a sub genre may never have existed. Where else do they take their inspiration other than old school Sabbath? 

[bundy]

The Black Sabbath scenario - well, Black Sabbath fails to get ground, Iommi was instrumental in defining the sound of the band. Wether Iommi would have remained forever in Jethro Tull is debatable, maybe he would have left after some albums, but Ozzy / Geezer / Bill would have not had a similar version of Black Sabbath, with similar music and topics, with another guitarist.

The Rainbow scenario - Dio and Rainbow create more albums as good as the first three Rainbow albums, they replace the songs Blackmore would have written with Deep Purple from 1984 onwards and the Dio solo albums. They would have went on to become one of the greatest and most consistent bands of the scene, still remembered to this day. Dio would have never felt the need to join a non-existent Black Sabbath (are these situations all occouring in the same alternate universe?9.

Pretty much my sentiments.
If Iommi had stayed with Tull I'm pretty certain there would have been no Black Sabbath. If ever there was a case of the stars aligning and all 4 members being absolutely essential as many argued very well about JPJ and Led Zeppelin, Sabbath were it. I can't imagine the band having got going minus any one of the 4. As Art and Twosuitsluke posted, it's hard to imagine how metal may evolved without Sabbath. As for Tull, I'm not sure how they would have developed. Probably a couple of killer albums before Iommi worked out that he was really trying to be a round peg in a square hole so to speak.

Completely concur about Rainbow. If Dio had stayed on, it's almost inconceivable to think what might have been. Knowing the ideas floating around in both Blackmore's and Dio's heads (given what they each went on to produce over the next few years) can you imagine what a series of Martin Birch produced albums with Blackmore, Dio, Powell, Glover and Jon Lord (jumps ship from Whitesnake to reunite with Glover and Blackmore) may have been like? Like you said they would have gone to be one of the greatest hard rock acts ever.

I can't imagine Elton being a member of KC ever having worked out, but I would love to have seen what King Crimson with Bryan Ferry would have been like. Still, we would not have had Roxy Music if that had been the case. Ironic to note that KC ended up supporting RM on their 1982 Avalon tour.

[twosuitsluke]

In regards to Sabbath, it is clear that they were instrumental in the evolution of metal and influenced a ton of bands but I'm pretty sure heavy metal would've happened without them. They had their influences from somewhere and it was probably a matter of time before another band put those influences together in a similar way. That being said, Sabbath mixed in the occult references, which became a massive part of heavy metal and appealed to a lot of people. There is of course the argument that Iommi's guitar tone was also synonymous with heavy metal and that was what influenced the bands that followed most.

Have any of you guys heard of a band called Spooky Tooth? They were a British rock band that formed in the late 60's. My Dad is a fan and saw them live back in the day. I've heard some of their stuff and it is similar to early Sabbath. I can't say for certain that they predate Sabbath but my Dad is pretty sure they do and Spooky Two (their album) was released before Sabbath's debut. Maybe Sabbath weren't as revolutionary as we all thought but I do think that Tony Iommi's riffs and the occult influences definitely sealed the deal for them and set them apart.

Interestingly I've also just found out, from a quick Google search, that Evil Woman by Sabbath is actually a cover of a song by an American band called Crow. Also, Spooky Tooth also wrote a song called Evil Woman which Sabbath stole the main riff for Sweet Leaf from. Were any of you aware of this?

[bundy]

I have a vinyl copy of Spooky Tooth's 1974 album the mirror. Haven't listened to it for quite a while but it was pretty good as I remember. Haven't heard the early albums so can't really comment. Would have been very interesting to see how metal would have developed if Iommi had stayed on in Tull and there had been no Sabbath. I'm inclined to agree that heavy  music would have eventually progressed on to metal with elements of doom and the occult. Sabbaths contemporaries Black Widow were already incorporating occult elements into their music and live shows (Sabbath in fact cited Black Widow when stressing that they were not an occult influenced band). Many acts were doing the heavy blues thing.
High Tide (don't know if anyone here is familiar with them) were also doing stuff that sounded remarkably like what Sabbath later would if they had, had a violinist. (Simon House would later go on to be a recurring member of Hawkwind). I bought the 1969 debut album, Sea Shanties on CD about 15 years ago purely on the strength of a couple of reviews I had read on Progarchives and the fact that I had been a long time fan of Simon House's work with Hawkwind. Couldn't believe I had never heard of them before. The link below is for the album. Need to listen to it on a decent sound system though to do the album justice. It's terrific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHIQkfp0s68
 

[twosuitsluke]

I have a vinyl copy of Spooky Tooth's 1974 album the mirror. Haven't listened to it for quite a while but it was pretty good as I remember. Haven't heard the early albums so can't really comment. Would have been very interesting to see how metal would have developed if Iommi had stayed on in Tull and there had been no Sabbath. I'm inclined to agree that heavy  music would have eventually progressed on to metal with elements of doom and the occult. Sabbaths contemporaries Black Widow were already incorporating occult elements into their music and live shows (Sabbath in fact cited Black Widow when stressing that they were not an occult influenced band). Many acts were doing the heavy blues thing.
High Tide (don't know if anyone here is familiar with them) were also doing stuff that sounded remarkably like what Sabbath later would if they had, had a violinist. (Simon House would later go on to be a recurring member of Hawkwind). I bought the 1969 debut album, Sea Shanties on CD about 15 years ago purely on the strength of a couple of reviews I had read on Progarchives and the fact that I had been a long time fan of Simon House's work with Hawkwind. Couldn't believe I had never heard of them before. The link below is for the album. Need to listen to it on a decent sound system though to do the album justice. It's terrific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHIQkfp0s68

Yea, that's fair. I did think after posting that maybe Sabbath weren't the first to use occult imagery.

I do know High Tide actually, another band my Dad is/was into. I actually have 4 tracks from Sea Shanties on my iPod, but not the full album for some reason?? I've only given it the odd listen but I'll give it another go.