Author Topic: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?  (Read 16642 times)

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Offline portnoy311

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #245 on: September 20, 2017, 09:07:13 PM »
I don't condone Antifa at all, just as I don't think any rational person does. Yes, I am worried about them. But I am also a little weary about those ready to call Antifa "the left."

Just curious, but why?   Why is it any different than the "Nazi's" being called the "right"?   I lean right and I can't even begin to tell you how much I abhor what the Nazi's stand for, and you can even take out the "I hate Jews/gays/immigrants" from that.    But they get lumped in with the right all the time.

The answer, in my view, is that "extremism is extremism", and it fails not because of WHAT it stands for, but HOW it stands for it.  I disagree with many, but I don't want to KILL them, or silence them.

I've never called them "the right" and would push back if I saw it being done.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #246 on: September 20, 2017, 09:30:32 PM »
I've never seen it done, but I've certainly seen the right called Nazis for nothing more than their politics.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #247 on: September 20, 2017, 09:45:44 PM »
I've never seen it done, but I've certainly seen the right called Nazis for nothing more than their politics.

People call things dumb names all the time. Idiots call the right Nazis. Idiots call the left terrorist sympathizers or Obama a Muslim. It's whatever. I don't know why we need to spend so much time focusing on these extreme arguments and essentially brush aside the vast majority of pragmatic perspectives.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #248 on: September 21, 2017, 09:47:36 AM »
Well, it's anecdotal, and so therefore useless, but when I was on the old Genesis forum, I made a comment, and the resident Lefty noted, just before his week's vacation, that I was a "Nazi baby-killer" (ignoring for a second that most far right-wingers are pro-life) for my conservative views.    It's not a stretch, nor is it coincidence in my view, that it's a short putt from "right" to "alt-right", and yet while leaning right, I have almost nothing in common with the alt-right. 

Offline antigoon

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #249 on: September 21, 2017, 11:07:46 AM »
idk, can you prove you're not a nazi baby killer?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #250 on: September 21, 2017, 11:14:01 AM »
Except for the tattoos, yes.  :) 

Offline Adami

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #251 on: September 21, 2017, 11:15:56 AM »
Nazi baby killer? That's insane.

How do you even know that a baby is a Nazi before you kill them?
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #252 on: September 21, 2017, 11:16:10 AM »
:lol

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #253 on: September 21, 2017, 11:22:36 AM »
Nazi baby killer? That's insane.

How do you even know that a baby is a Nazi before you kill them?

Now that's funny
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #254 on: September 22, 2017, 10:37:34 AM »
Nazi baby killer? That's insane.

How do you even know that a baby is a Nazi before you kill them?

Shine a torch in its eyes. If it doesn't react it's clearly nazi-ing anything.

Offline TL

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #255 on: September 22, 2017, 08:09:08 PM »
Well, it's anecdotal, and so therefore useless, but when I was on the old Genesis forum, I made a comment, and the resident Lefty noted, just before his week's vacation, that I was a "Nazi baby-killer" (ignoring for a second that most far right-wingers are pro-life) for my conservative views.    It's not a stretch, nor is it coincidence in my view, that it's a short putt from "right" to "alt-right", and yet while leaning right, I have almost nothing in common with the alt-right.
I think part of it is that breaking it down into just "Left, Center, Right" is far too simplistic to be useful. Honestly, even at its most basic, a political spectrum should include Far Left, Left, Center-Left, Center, Center-Right, Right, Far Right.  Even then it's leaving out a lot of nuance, but it at least provides a little clarity.

Most people fall into Center-Left, Center, Center-Right.
If someone genuinely falls into one of the "Far" designations, on either end, they really need to re-evaluate some things. I view the Far Left and the Far Right as similarly awful.
Stadler, I definitely view you as being Center-Right. That's a fine place to be. Many good people are Center-Right. One of the greatest Premiers my province ever had was a Center-Right politician.
For me, I'd probably be around the border of Center-Left and Left, at most.

The "Alt-Right" (which is a self branding on their part, and not particularly accurate as far as I'm concerned) are basically neo-nazis. I don't consider them typical of the normal right wing. If Nazis even fall on the political spectrum, it would be at the furthest edge of Far-Right. Even then, I feel like their politics are so beyond the pale that it's almost unfair to moderate right wingers to even put them at the extreme of that side.


Offline portnoy311

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #256 on: September 22, 2017, 08:53:55 PM »
Yup, great post. I have a (former) friend that I had lost contact with after college, save for Facebook. He deleted his account last month (or was perma banned) after spending the last year using his page as pure propaganda for the alt-right, including their less than savory or mature internet tactics. I actually had to google what a "beta herb" was when he called someone that who dared question what the hell he was talking about when posting something about the white ethnocentrist nation state he was calling for. I never engaged him, but I did check his page frequently just for the "car crash" factor. He routinely said stuff like "I'm not a Nazi, but I'm complimented when you libtards resort to that ad hominem" coupled with bullshit about his IQ (his STEM degree made him a super genius apparently, nevermind multiple of my friends who did actually engage him and I hold STEM degrees from the same university). Honestly, a lot of what that guy was advocating for WAS incredibly close to what the Nazis wanted. But, pointing that out and calling his views related to Nazism (which again I never did, he probably doesn't even realize I looked at his page), wouldn't at all be reflective of views of the mainstream right or actual sane conservatives.

Just as I haven't seen too many people here get offended when antifa is called out for their tactics, I am going to push back on the idea that "it's a short putt from right to alt-right." The right is engaged in their own brand of political correctness and the irony and hypocrisy is going over a lot of people's heads. "Don't use certain terms to describe anyone who leans right, even if I disagree with 95% of their platform, because that offends me personally as I also advocate for fiscal conservatism."


Or to put it in a way that will create more pushback (that's what we need - a good solid disagreement!), the problem I have with Hillary's "half of Trump's supporters are what I call 'Deplorables' " isn't at all the petty 'deplorables' moniker, she's hardly wrong on that point. It's the 'half.' No, it's not that many, but you're damn right they do exist, and they are deplorable. That has nothing to do with the rest of them. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #257 on: September 25, 2017, 10:30:49 AM »
Well, it's anecdotal, and so therefore useless, but when I was on the old Genesis forum, I made a comment, and the resident Lefty noted, just before his week's vacation, that I was a "Nazi baby-killer" (ignoring for a second that most far right-wingers are pro-life) for my conservative views.    It's not a stretch, nor is it coincidence in my view, that it's a short putt from "right" to "alt-right", and yet while leaning right, I have almost nothing in common with the alt-right.
I think part of it is that breaking it down into just "Left, Center, Right" is far too simplistic to be useful. Honestly, even at its most basic, a political spectrum should include Far Left, Left, Center-Left, Center, Center-Right, Right, Far Right.  Even then it's leaving out a lot of nuance, but it at least provides a little clarity.

Most people fall into Center-Left, Center, Center-Right.
If someone genuinely falls into one of the "Far" designations, on either end, they really need to re-evaluate some things. I view the Far Left and the Far Right as similarly awful.
Stadler, I definitely view you as being Center-Right. That's a fine place to be. Many good people are Center-Right. One of the greatest Premiers my province ever had was a Center-Right politician.
For me, I'd probably be around the border of Center-Left and Left, at most.

The "Alt-Right" (which is a self branding on their part, and not particularly accurate as far as I'm concerned) are basically neo-nazis. I don't consider them typical of the normal right wing. If Nazis even fall on the political spectrum, it would be at the furthest edge of Far-Right. Even then, I feel like their politics are so beyond the pale that it's almost unfair to moderate right wingers to even put them at the extreme of that side.

I think that's a great post, and I love the nuance that it brings.  I know for me, I'm still struggling with the linearity of the designations and how you balance them.   If you believe in single payer healthcare and free tuition, but want a white America, does that average out to moderate?  I'm using extreme positions to make a point, but in a more substantive way, I struggle with the increasing divide between identity politics and fiscal politics.   At that point the binary nature of these labels doesn't work. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #258 on: September 25, 2017, 10:43:00 AM »
Just as I haven't seen too many people here get offended when antifa is called out for their tactics, I am going to push back on the idea that "it's a short putt from right to alt-right." The right is engaged in their own brand of political correctness and the irony and hypocrisy is going over a lot of people's heads. "Don't use certain terms to describe anyone who leans right, even if I disagree with 95% of their platform, because that offends me personally as I also advocate for fiscal conservatism."

It's not "political correctness" in this context, it's called "framing"; all politics is "framing".  It's "pro life" (and not "anti-choice") for a reason.   If you're for it, repealing Obamacare is removing onerous taxes unfairly placed on a portion of our society.  If you're against it, repealing Obamacare is giving tax cuts to the rich.   I think where we fail ourselves is not being able to discuss these issues without the "protections" of the "framing". 

Quote
Or to put it in a way that will create more pushback (that's what we need - a good solid disagreement!), the problem I have with Hillary's "half of Trump's supporters are what I call 'Deplorables' " isn't at all the petty 'deplorables' moniker, she's hardly wrong on that point. It's the 'half.' No, it's not that many, but you're damn right they do exist, and they are deplorable. That has nothing to do with the rest of them.

Of course they exist, but she was wrong not just in number. She was (and still is) wrong in her assessment.  She didn't lose because all "deplorables" voted for Trump (Carlos Danger is "deplorable" but he didn't (presumably) vote for Trump.)  She lost because anywhere from 10 to 15 million people that voted for Obama decided that the unknown is  better than the same-old, same-old.   

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #259 on: September 25, 2017, 11:11:41 AM »

  She lost because anywhere from 10 to 15 million people that voted for Obama decided that the unknown is  better than the same-old, same-old.

That's far from the only reason Trump won.  It's the one you're most comfortable with because it describes you specifically  (except you didn't vote for Trump, I know but you still preferred the unknown)

Offline Chino

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #260 on: September 25, 2017, 11:15:07 AM »

  She lost because anywhere from 10 to 15 million people that voted for Obama decided that the unknown is  better than the same-old, same-old.

That's far from the only reason Trump won.

That's a large (if not the largest) part of it though. Even with those 10M-15M going the other way, she still won the popular vote by 3M. Had the democrats ran just about anyone even slightly more likeable that didn't have the last name Clinton, I think that 3M spread would have been notably larger.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #261 on: September 25, 2017, 11:19:00 AM »

  She lost because anywhere from 10 to 15 million people that voted for Obama decided that the unknown is  better than the same-old, same-old.

That's far from the only reason Trump won.

That's a large (if not the largest) part of it though. Even with those 10M-15M going the other way, she still won the popular vote by 3M. Had the democrats ran just about anyone even slightly more likeable that didn't have the last name Clinton, I think that 3M spread would have been notably larger.

agreed

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #262 on: September 25, 2017, 11:22:44 AM »
Had the democrats ran just about anyone even slightly more likeable that didn't have the last name Clinton, I think that 3M spread would have been notably larger.

I told my brother Friday night when we were talking that one.....neither candidate was a good candidate. They both sucked and still suck, as people and as leaders. Had Joe Biden just went ahead and ran against her he'd have beaten Trump handily. I'd have voted for him in a heartbeat. He should have looked at it as a (1) term gig just to keep obama's agenda/momentum...whatever you want to call it going and to keep as much stability going as possible in Washington. He's respected by both sides and probably could have gotten some good work done.

But, the Clinton 'machine' and powers that be simply wouldn't let him.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #263 on: September 25, 2017, 02:03:30 PM »

  She lost because anywhere from 10 to 15 million people that voted for Obama decided that the unknown is  better than the same-old, same-old.

That's far from the only reason Trump won.  It's the one you're most comfortable with because it describes you specifically  (except you didn't vote for Trump, I know but you still preferred the unknown)

It actually doesn't describe me at all.  I did not prefer the unknown.  I was very clear that I didn't then and still don't think that anyone's first elected office should be the President of the United States of America.   I don't have the beef with politicians that most do; I would never get heart surgery from someone who never operated on someone before.   I would never ask anyone who's never managed a project to renovated my house. 

Had those people voted to party, Trump would not have won. 

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #264 on: September 27, 2017, 02:13:12 PM »
Had the democrats ran just about anyone even slightly more likeable that didn't have the last name Clinton, I think that 3M spread would have been notably larger.

I told my brother Friday night when we were talking that one.....neither candidate was a good candidate. They both sucked and still suck, as people and as leaders. Had Joe Biden just went ahead and ran against her he'd have beaten Trump handily. I'd have voted for him in a heartbeat. He should have looked at it as a (1) term gig just to keep obama's agenda/momentum...whatever you want to call it going and to keep as much stability going as possible in Washington. He's respected by both sides and probably could have gotten some good work done.

I agree with all of this. We were in for 4 years of shit regardless.

But, the Clinton 'machine' and powers that be simply wouldn't let him.

Offline Chino

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #265 on: September 28, 2017, 12:10:25 PM »
Had the democrats ran just about anyone even slightly more likeable that didn't have the last name Clinton, I think that 3M spread would have been notably larger.

I told my brother Friday night when we were talking that one.....neither candidate was a good candidate. They both sucked and still suck, as people and as leaders. Had Joe Biden just went ahead and ran against her he'd have beaten Trump handily. I'd have voted for him in a heartbeat. He should have looked at it as a (1) term gig just to keep obama's agenda/momentum...whatever you want to call it going and to keep as much stability going as possible in Washington. He's respected by both sides and probably could have gotten some good work done.

But, the Clinton 'machine' and powers that be simply wouldn't let him.

Please don't think I'm trying to dig deep or insinuate anything here.. just kind of curious. You've said a few times that your vote for Trump was primarily rooted in not wanting Hillary to have a (maybe two) SCOTUS appointment(s). What is it about Biden that would lead you to believe he wouldn't have made nearly identical choices as Clinton? I too would have much rather seen Biden run and I think he would have walked away with that election had he done so.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #266 on: September 28, 2017, 01:10:48 PM »
Had the democrats ran just about anyone even slightly more likeable that didn't have the last name Clinton, I think that 3M spread would have been notably larger.

I told my brother Friday night when we were talking that one.....neither candidate was a good candidate. They both sucked and still suck, as people and as leaders. Had Joe Biden just went ahead and ran against her he'd have beaten Trump handily. I'd have voted for him in a heartbeat. He should have looked at it as a (1) term gig just to keep obama's agenda/momentum...whatever you want to call it going and to keep as much stability going as possible in Washington. He's respected by both sides and probably could have gotten some good work done.

But, the Clinton 'machine' and powers that be simply wouldn't let him.

Please don't think I'm trying to dig deep or insinuate anything here.. just kind of curious. You've said a few times that your vote for Trump was primarily rooted in not wanting Hillary to have a (maybe two) SCOTUS appointment(s). What is it about Biden that would lead you to believe he wouldn't have made nearly identical choices as Clinton? I too would have much rather seen Biden run and I think he would have walked away with that election had he done so.

I think Chino is right here; I would have likely voted for Biden, too, but it would have been with the full understanding and knowledge that I would be sacrificing one or maybe two Supreme Court picks.  Biden is a good guy, fair, and a consummate politician, but he is not going to swerve too far out of the lines when it comes to those "legacy" things that arise from the Presidency.   He is a Washington guy through and through (not necessarily a bad thing). 

Offline TL

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #267 on: October 01, 2017, 07:37:00 PM »
Well, it's anecdotal, and so therefore useless, but when I was on the old Genesis forum, I made a comment, and the resident Lefty noted, just before his week's vacation, that I was a "Nazi baby-killer" (ignoring for a second that most far right-wingers are pro-life) for my conservative views.    It's not a stretch, nor is it coincidence in my view, that it's a short putt from "right" to "alt-right", and yet while leaning right, I have almost nothing in common with the alt-right.
I think part of it is that breaking it down into just "Left, Center, Right" is far too simplistic to be useful. Honestly, even at its most basic, a political spectrum should include Far Left, Left, Center-Left, Center, Center-Right, Right, Far Right.  Even then it's leaving out a lot of nuance, but it at least provides a little clarity.

Most people fall into Center-Left, Center, Center-Right.
If someone genuinely falls into one of the "Far" designations, on either end, they really need to re-evaluate some things. I view the Far Left and the Far Right as similarly awful.
Stadler, I definitely view you as being Center-Right. That's a fine place to be. Many good people are Center-Right. One of the greatest Premiers my province ever had was a Center-Right politician.
For me, I'd probably be around the border of Center-Left and Left, at most.

The "Alt-Right" (which is a self branding on their part, and not particularly accurate as far as I'm concerned) are basically neo-nazis. I don't consider them typical of the normal right wing. If Nazis even fall on the political spectrum, it would be at the furthest edge of Far-Right. Even then, I feel like their politics are so beyond the pale that it's almost unfair to moderate right wingers to even put them at the extreme of that side.

I think that's a great post, and I love the nuance that it brings.  I know for me, I'm still struggling with the linearity of the designations and how you balance them.   If you believe in single payer healthcare and free tuition, but want a white America, does that average out to moderate?  I'm using extreme positions to make a point, but in a more substantive way, I struggle with the increasing divide between identity politics and fiscal politics.   At that point the binary nature of these labels doesn't work.
That is a good point. While useful as a shorthand, and while there is some correlation that, "People who hold position X often also hold position Y", it definitely gets a lot more complicated than that in practice. Someone who wants single payer but is completely opposed to abortion. Someone who is strongly pro LGBTQ, but also favors small government. Someone who likes guns and also wants the government to fight climate change.

I think this is something people often lose sight of in political discourse (and I'll admit even I'm guilty of this sometimes). It's convenient to sort politics into a few labels, but the reality is much messier than that.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #268 on: October 02, 2017, 09:18:28 AM »
This isn't me crying victim at all, because I'm used to it, but I run across this a LOT, particularly because  of where I draw the lines.  I'm more of a "how" than a "what" guy.   I don't at all agree with that wing of the Republican party that deals so adamantly with the social issues side of things, and while I think Bernie to be economically incompetent, I don't necessarily disagree with the general premise of some of his ideas.   

But I think I'm most distraught with how quickly people are willing to reduce to personal terms.  That I'm against the ACA doesn't mean I "want people to die", and I resent the way that some of the arguments are phrased that way.  To this day, I struggle to find how the repeal bills FORCE someone to NOT have insurance.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #269 on: October 13, 2017, 11:45:12 AM »
Not the slightest bit surprising, this is the new America and it's what the people have been clamouring for, after all,but it's still fucking sad.

http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/counties/jackson-county/article178572326.html
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #270 on: October 13, 2017, 11:49:45 AM »
Not the slightest bit surprising, this is the new America and it's what the people have been clamouring for, after all,but it's still fucking sad.

http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/counties/jackson-county/article178572326.html

I disagree. It's another example of the minority opinion dictating something upon the majority. the whole 'new America' idea that  you hint at is choc full of the minority ruling the majority....because the majority refuses to push back out of 'fear' they'll be labeled racist/sexist/homophobic/ etc etc etc.

I've said it before and again it's pertinent.....you reap what you sow folks.....
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #271 on: October 13, 2017, 12:22:09 PM »
Hopefully the book will always be discovered by current and future generations whatever some schools decide to do, but it's a shame they pulled it from their curriculum for what seems like flimsy reasons (complaints?)

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #272 on: October 13, 2017, 12:27:19 PM »

Not the slightest bit surprising, this is the new America and it's what the people have been clamouring for, after all,but it's still fucking sad.

http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/counties/jackson-county/article178572326.html

I disagree. It's another example of the minority opinion dictating something upon the majority. the whole 'new America' idea that  you hint at is choc full of the minority ruling the majority....because the majority refuses to push back out of 'fear' they'll be labeled racist/sexist/homophobic/ etc etc etc.

I've said it before and again it's pertinent.....you reap what you sow folks.....

Thats the dumbest thing ever. Its how they talked back in the day. Those people are idiots and probably haven't read the book.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #273 on: October 13, 2017, 12:32:09 PM »
I always find these cases really odd.  Like,  I would bet good money that for all the arguments and bickering on this sub-forum,  all of us agree on this.    Yet that doesn't translate in these real world cases.  What context are the people making these decisions have that we don't,  or is it more likely they're not looking at the bigger picture? 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #274 on: October 13, 2017, 12:52:03 PM »

Not the slightest bit surprising, this is the new America and it's what the people have been clamouring for, after all,but it's still fucking sad.

http://www.sunherald.com/news/local/counties/jackson-county/article178572326.html

I disagree. It's another example of the minority opinion dictating something upon the majority. the whole 'new America' idea that  you hint at is choc full of the minority ruling the majority....because the majority refuses to push back out of 'fear' they'll be labeled racist/sexist/homophobic/ etc etc etc.

I've said it before and again it's pertinent.....you reap what you sow folks.....

Thats the dumbest thing ever. Its how they talked back in the day. Those people are idiots and probably haven't read the book.
Ben, it PROVES they didn't read the book, or at least comprehend it.  The very premise of the book is what they are ostensibly trying (and failing) to achieve by arbitrarily trying to remove words from existence. 

Offline sylvan

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #275 on: October 13, 2017, 01:09:29 PM »
I always find these cases really odd.  Like,  I would bet good money that for all the arguments and bickering on this sub-forum,  all of us agree on this.    Yet that doesn't translate in these real world cases.  What context are the people making these decisions have that we don't,  or is it more likely they're not looking at the bigger picture?

Amen to this. When two hypothetical people, who argue opposite sides of the most important issues plaguing modern society, can both look at a specific example and say, "Well that's just fucking stupid," then we've found that area that Stadler thinks doesn't exist, only because it's like finding the 7th dimension: Common sense.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #276 on: October 13, 2017, 02:01:24 PM »
All too predictable. And believe me, this will be the tip of the iceberg. If you read the Penguin Classics edition (the 'official' edition, approved by his wife Sonya) of George Orwell's 1984, he predicted in his notes for the novel that one day 'they' would come for even his work. And it will happen. They won't be satisfied until every single challenging idea is consigned to Room 101. Until anything which can provoke a young person to think independently is removed from the curriculum.

What is disturbing to me about this story is the comment by the 'Vice President' of the Biloxi School Board (Kenny Holloway): "We can teach the same lesson with different books". Really? Which 'lesson', Mr Holloway? This is literature, we don't use it for didactic purposes. Only dictatorships use literature to 'teach lessons', free societies let words and books speak for themselves. Harper Lee's novel is a snapshot of a time, it is not something to be used to push an agenda. What will be next, are we going to expunge Othello for its depiction of hot-headed Moors, or Oliver Twist for its reference to Fagin as 'The Jew'?

This is what happens when you have intellectual mediocrities running a school programme, they see everything through the lens of 'telling children what they need to believe', and can't think in terms of teaching kids to think and evaluate for themselves.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #277 on: October 13, 2017, 02:33:17 PM »
All too predictable. And believe me, this will be the tip of the iceberg. If you read the Penguin Classics edition (the 'official' edition, approved by his wife Sonya) of George Orwell's 1984, he predicted in his notes for the novel that one day 'they' would come for even his work. And it will happen. They won't be satisfied until every single challenging idea is consigned to Room 101. Until anything which can provoke a young person to think independently is removed from the curriculum.

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. Setting aside the fact that nobody should be forced to suffer through 1984, the censorship there takes a very different form towards a different goal. What Orwell describes is a very real thing and is already happening here in various forms. However, what we're seeing with this and Mark Twain is censorship by the people combined with a general aversion to having to deal with meatheads. They will come for the subversive 1984, but it's us that will takeaway the pornographic Brave New World.

Quote
What is disturbing to me about this story is the comment by the 'Vice President' of the Biloxi School Board (Kenny Holloway): "We can teach the same lesson with different books". Really? Which 'lesson', Mr Holloway? This is literature, we don't use it for didactic purposes. Only dictatorships use literature to 'teach lessons', free societies let words and books speak for themselves. Harper Lee's novel is a snapshot of a time, it is not something to be used to push an agenda. What will be next, are we going to expunge Othello for its depiction of hot-headed Moors, or Oliver Twist for its reference to Fagin as 'The Jew'?

This is what happens when you have intellectual mediocrities running a school programme, they see everything through the lens of 'telling children what they need to believe', and can't think in terms of teaching kids to think and evaluate for themselves.
Capital, dude. Capital.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #278 on: October 13, 2017, 03:10:44 PM »

"We can teach the same lesson with different books". Really? Which 'lesson', Mr Holloway? This is literature, we don't use it for didactic purposes. Only dictatorships use literature to 'teach lessons',

I'm not sure I follow... litterature classes use books to teach.  THey have lesson plans.  That's how I understood the statement.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?
« Reply #279 on: October 13, 2017, 03:54:59 PM »
They should teach you how to better interpret a book. How to understand what the author was trying to say. How to gain your own understanding. They shouldn't be using them to try and teach a moral message from the book. That's something the reader should learn to do on his own. To use the current example, "the teens were slated to learn that compassion and empathy are not dependent upon race or education." While that is one message, I had a different takeaway from it. I view Atticus as a man who understood that shit jobs need to be done. If he was the only person capable or willing to do them, then he did them. A more pragmatic interpretation, but one that was very meaningful to me. Atticus Finch gets hero status in my world. That's why you teach somebody to interpret something, rather than teach them your idea of the meaning. Often times there are more than one.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson