Why The Urge to Silence Opposing Views?

[El Barto]

I have to wonder how much of this is orchestrated. If I'm the head of the student's Young Fascists organization, booking one of these nimrods and then letting all of the easily upsetables know weeks in advance and "encouraging" protests sounds like it'd be a helluva lot of fun.

[PowerSlave]

I have to wonder how much of this is orchestrated. If I'm the head of the student's Young Fascists organization, booking one of these nimrods and then letting all of the easily upsetables know weeks in advance and "encouraging" protests sounds like it'd be a helluva lot of fun.

Trolling in other words.

[cramx3]

Yea, I can see that too.  Attention and making news.

[KevShmev]

I think its more than just the dorm when you're living that life. These people are brainwashed to love everything about their school - from sports to the businesses.

I get nervous around anybody who gushes as much love for the school they went to as they would their first born; it's kinda creepy.  School pride is one thing, but a lot of people go totally overboard with it.

[Stadler]

I think part of the issue is campus is like your home. These students LIVE on campus. If someone came to your house and started bashing everything you believed in and saying things you find offensive - wouldn't you want to kick them out?

AND

Inside their dorm/apartment complex would be "home."  "Anywhere on or in the same town as campus" is not. 

if I can find the link, I'll post it, but there is a very interesting video discussing the nature of free speech, and the trends in liberalism (in the purely political context) on campus.  And they use a recent example on the Yale campus, which, tl;dr is basically that one person in the administration put out a "do's and don'ts" for Halloween costumes.  And another professor released an email she sent in protest to that, that was taken - only because of the context - as "racist", because it seemed to advocate for racist costumes (which it did not do; it merely said that the students were free to make their choices and live with their consequences and their consciences).    Subsequently, there was a gathering in a quad adjacent to the dorm in which the "racist'" professor and her husband lived as supervisors.   He came out to the quad to advocate for free exchange of peaceful, respectful ideas, as it was an "intellectual safe zone" and that that was the purpose of university.   

One woman burst into tears and said something to the effect of "this isn't a place for intellectual growth!  It's my HOME!  It's my HOME!".  He later said something to the effect of "let's debate this reasonably", and another woman started screaming, "This isn't a debate! This isn't a debate! I want your job!  I want your JOB!".   Within a week, the husband was reassigned within the university and the allegedly "racist" professor was terminated.

This is not free speech. This is not how intellectual intercourse is supposed to work.   University is NOT your home.  It is NOT.  If one student makes it that, it is at their leisure, and with the understanding that considering it "your home" does not allow you to set the rules of discourse as you would in your own home.  You do not OWN anything, you do not have anything other than temporary use rights in a dormitory system.  And even if was - it's not, but I'll humor you - you still have to share that "home" with anywhere from 1000 to 20,000 (at schools like UConn and PSU) other people that live there.    You have to accept that they might have differing ideas, and while you don't have to ACCEPT all those ideas, you do have to accept that they exist and you have to tolerate the ideas themselves.    I can stop you from ACTING as a, say, racist, but I cannot and should not be able to stop you from THINKING like a racist, if that's the conclusion to which your thought process and experiences have brought you.

[Stadler]

I think its more than just the dorm when you're living that life. These people are brainwashed to love everything about their school - from sports to the businesses.

I get nervous around anybody who gushes as much love for the school they went to as they would their first born; it's kinda creepy.  School pride is one thing, but a lot of people go totally overboard with it.

I have the UConn Husky tattooed on me twice; I have the old husky on my chest over my heart:



and the new one just above my pubes (which are trimmed accordingly) and below my beltline:




Makes for an interesting conversation for those lucky few that get to see it, and even more so for those that get to look it in the eye. 

[kaos2900]

These kids are in for a rude awakening when they enter the real world.

[bosk1]

Well, in light of recent posts, I would alter yours slightly to read

These kids are in for a rude awakening when they enter the real world Stadler's bedroom.

[mikeyd23]

 

[Stadler]

Bosk, you're on fire lately, seriously.         

[bosk1]

  I'm just picturing a scenario where you take a young lady back to your apartment, and things progress and are about to get serious when you remove your pants, and she suddenly shrieks and gets wide-eyed.  Since this would obviously be unsettling, you in a very concerned tone ask her what is wrong.  She is unable to form the words and begins sobbing inconsolably.  You again ask what is wrong as you sit down on the edge of the bed next to her and try to put your arm around her.  She then stands abruptly, unzips her jeans, and peels them down just far enough that you see an Orangemen tat just above her crotch.  You gasp for air as the room begins spinning around you.  But you finally understand.  It is all you can do to form the words, "yeah...yeah, it's...this probably isn't going to work out." 

At least, that's how it played out in my mind on a Friday morning at the office.

[hefdaddy42]

[chknptpie]

When did these types of discussions start occurring on campus? I don't remember this occurring when I went to ASU. Was I just oblivious to it? Also - why do these discussions even need to occur on a school campus? There are so many venues available here in the Phoenix metro area that speaking on campus doesn't seem necessary.

[cramx3]

I would say speaking on a campus makes the most sense actually.  It's supposed to be a place of openness, free speech, opposing views, and a learning experience (even if you disagree).  Of course there are other options and makes me think some of this is set up for attention like Barto implied.

At PSU we had a guy called "The Willard Preacher" because he literally stood outside the Willard building which was near the center of campus and hosted a lot of classes so there would be thousands of people going in and out of the building that he would preach in front of.  This guy was mostly religious preaching.  He didn't like anything that went on at the campus, which was ranked #1 when I graduated for drinking schools.  He was a very vocal person, likely paid by a local church to do what he did every single day of my 4 years on campus.  Generally, no one liked him or agreed with him.  Occasionally he'd get into a heated argument with someone, but that was it.  Never violent, and no one ever said he can't do it.  Often people who were bored or on break, would go to the Willard steps just to listen to him even if they didn't agree, it could be entertaining.  I've heard he isn't there anymore.  Not sure what happened (I'm not trying to imply he was shut up either, I just honestly don't know).

[hefdaddy42]

^We had guys like that at both universities I attended during my academic career.^

[Stadler]

  I'm just picturing a scenario where you take a young lady back to your apartment, and things progress and are about to get serious when you remove your pants, and she suddenly shrieks and gets wide-eyed.  Since this would obviously be unsettling, you in a very concerned tone ask her what is wrong.  She is unable to form the words and begins sobbing inconsolably.  You again ask what is wrong as you sit down on the edge of the bed next to her and try to put your arm around her.  She then stands abruptly, unzips her jeans, and peels them down just far enough that you see an Orangemen tat just above her crotch.  You gasp for air as the room begins spinning around you.  But you finally understand.  It is all you can do to form the words, "yeah...yeah, it's...this probably isn't going to work out." 

At least, that's how it played out in my mind on a Friday morning at the office.

HAHAHAHAHAHA, I lost it when I got to "Orangemen" and at that point I realized you had it exactly right.  100% exactly right. 

[Chino]

“Obviously Ann Coulter’s outrageous ― to my mind, off the wall. But you know, people have a right to give their two cents-worth, give a speech, without fear of violence and intimidation . . .

To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness. If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?

What are you afraid of ― her ideas? Ask her the hard questions. Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.” - Bernie Sanders

[Stadler]

When did these types of discussions start occurring on campus? I don't remember this occurring when I went to ASU. Was I just oblivious to it? Also - why do these discussions even need to occur on a school campus? There are so many venues available here in the Phoenix metro area that speaking on campus doesn't seem necessary.

I'm sort of with Cram on this; when I was at UConn (large state school) it didn't happen much, but at law school and business school (smaller campuses) speakers were often an off-shoot of a class module or something like that.   Especially business school; we were in Atlanta (Emory) so we would get Jimmy Carter, S. Truett Cathy (Chick-fil-A founder), CNN talking heads, etc. and some were controversial for Various reasons (see "Truett Cathy") but it allowed for debate and counterpoint.

Now, though - and I blame social media for the bulk of this - we live in a society where we have empowered people to believe - falsely - that their opinions actually matter (as opposed to ideas).   We don't require people to bolster their positions with fact or reasons; in response we get "don't bully me!" or "but I'm terrified!", or some religious justification for ignoring plain information that has to be accounted for in the real world.    That you feel it, believe it, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean that others can't or shouldn't feel differently.   We've lost that. 

I can remember hearing Jesse Jackson speak at UConn and being BLOWN AWAY (still one of the top three speakers I've ever heard personally) and while I didn't agree with a lot of what he was saying, I HAD to account for it.  I HAD to process it, and assimilate it into the things I believed.   I was not doing myself, or my views any justice by just ignoring that which I disagreed with.  (And I'll be honest; during that assimilation, I realized that there were points on which I had it wrong and Jesse was right.  I'm a better person for that today.)   Shutting it out or quieting it doesn't work.  The ideas don't just go away; in fact, they fester.   

We've had 20 years or so of hard-core PC thinking, shutting down ideas that are/were controversial, and dictating the dialogue based on what has the least emotional impact and based on the "perceived offense" measurement.  Does anyone believe there is less hate these days?  Less bigotry?  Less intolerance (and I'm not even talking about the blatant bigotry and hate from the "intolerant of intolerance" crowd)?   I didn't think so.

[Stadler]

“Obviously Ann Coulter’s outrageous ― to my mind, off the wall. But you know, people have a right to give their two cents-worth, give a speech, without fear of violence and intimidation . . .

To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness. If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?

What are you afraid of ― her ideas? Ask her the hard questions. Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.” - Bernie Sanders

I fucking love Bernie Sanders more and more every day.  I really do.  I don't agree with some of his economic policies, nor his attacks on the "beeyonaires!", but in terms of his approach, his demeanor, and his confidence in his ideas, I find few people in politics -hell, ANYWHERE - to be his peer.    Really impressed with that guy, and for the first time in my life, I would love to be able to tell him that in person. 

[Chino]

“Obviously Ann Coulter’s outrageous ― to my mind, off the wall. But you know, people have a right to give their two cents-worth, give a speech, without fear of violence and intimidation . . .

To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness. If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?

What are you afraid of ― her ideas? Ask her the hard questions. Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.” - Bernie Sanders

I fucking love Bernie Sanders more and more every day.  I really do.  I don't agree with some of his economic policies, nor his attacks on the "beeyonaires!", but in terms of his approach, his demeanor, and his confidence in his ideas, I find few people in politics -hell, ANYWHERE - to be his peer.    Really impressed with that guy, and for the first time in my life, I would love to be able to tell him that in person.

That's why I was a fan of his. I don't fall in line with a lot of his policies (even more so those of his hardcore followers), but I admire the man's approach and willingness to converse. His ability to take a step back and think before reacting. He seems like he'd happily sit down and discuss anything with anyone without any shit slinging.

[bosk1]

“Obviously Ann Coulter’s outrageous ― to my mind, off the wall. But you know, people have a right to give their two cents-worth, give a speech, without fear of violence and intimidation . . .

To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness. If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?

What are you afraid of ― her ideas? Ask her the hard questions. Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.” - Bernie Sanders

I fucking love Bernie Sanders more and more every day.  I really do.  I don't agree with some of his economic policies, nor his attacks on the "beeyonaires!", but in terms of his approach, his demeanor, and his confidence in his ideas, I find few people in politics -hell, ANYWHERE - to be his peer.    Really impressed with that guy, and for the first time in my life, I would love to be able to tell him that in person.

That's why I was a fan of his. I don't fall in line with a lot of his policies (even more so those of his hardcore followers), but I admire the man's approach and willingness to converse. His ability to take a step back and think before reacting. He seems like he'd happily sit down and discuss anything with anyone without any shit slinging.

Agreed.  That is the one reason I would have very seriously considered not voting against the Democratic party if he were the candidate, especially if it was him vs. Trump.

[Chino]

“Obviously Ann Coulter’s outrageous ― to my mind, off the wall. But you know, people have a right to give their two cents-worth, give a speech, without fear of violence and intimidation . . .

To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness. If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?

What are you afraid of ― her ideas? Ask her the hard questions. Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.” - Bernie Sanders

I fucking love Bernie Sanders more and more every day.  I really do.  I don't agree with some of his economic policies, nor his attacks on the "beeyonaires!", but in terms of his approach, his demeanor, and his confidence in his ideas, I find few people in politics -hell, ANYWHERE - to be his peer.    Really impressed with that guy, and for the first time in my life, I would love to be able to tell him that in person.

That's why I was a fan of his. I don't fall in line with a lot of his policies (even more so those of his hardcore followers), but I admire the man's approach and willingness to converse. His ability to take a step back and think before reacting. He seems like he'd happily sit down and discuss anything with anyone without any shit slinging.

Agreed.  That is the one reason I would have very seriously considered not voting against the Democratic party if he were the candidate, especially if it was him vs. Trump.

When I cast my vote in November, it was a vote against Trump. Had Bernie been on the ticket, it would have been a vote for Bernie.

[bosk1]

Yes, I know.  And I was looking for a reason to vote against Trump.  Hillary simply could not provide that reason.  But we've beat that drum to death, and this thread isn't really the place for it, so I won't go any farther.

[Stadler]

Well, let's not go crazy; I don't think I would have voted for him - economically, his programs are a disaster - but I can disagree with him and still respect the shit out of him.    I don't mean from a policy standpoint but from a demeanor standpoint, you can't ask for better (now, to put it in voting terms, if Hillary conducted herself like he did/does, I would have voted for her in a heartbeat.  Or conversely, if he was more moderate in his platforms, THEN I could have voted for him.  I don't care if you're Margot Robbie, I'm not voting for a self-avowed "democratic socialist").

[PowerSlave]

Well, let's not go crazy; I don't think I would have voted for him - economically, his programs are a disaster - but I can disagree with him and still respect the shit out of him.    I don't mean from a policy standpoint but from a demeanor standpoint, you can't ask for better (now, to put it in voting terms, if Hillary conducted herself like he did/does, I would have voted for her in a heartbeat.  Or conversely, if he was more moderate in his platforms, THEN I could have voted for him.  I don't care if you're Margot Robbie, I'm not voting for a self-avowed "democratic socialist").

Just out of curiosity, is there any of his policies that you do agree with?

[Stadler]

Well, let's not go crazy; I don't think I would have voted for him - economically, his programs are a disaster - but I can disagree with him and still respect the shit out of him.    I don't mean from a policy standpoint but from a demeanor standpoint, you can't ask for better (now, to put it in voting terms, if Hillary conducted herself like he did/does, I would have voted for her in a heartbeat.  Or conversely, if he was more moderate in his platforms, THEN I could have voted for him.  I don't care if you're Margot Robbie, I'm not voting for a self-avowed "democratic socialist").

Just out of curiosity, is there any of his policies that you do agree with?

Well, I don't know his platform up and down, but socially we probably aren't far apart.  I don't necessarily agree with the idea that 90% of our population is being metaphorically raped by the remaining 10%, but generally there is some common ground.  The problem is that it's never 100%.    I agree with his position on global warming - that it's a serious problem - but am not all in on how he'd address it.   I agree with him that there is no company that is "too big to fail", and white collar criminals have to be prosecuted, but I don't necessarily think we should proactively break them up and I don't think "making money" is necessarily the grounds for that prosecution.  I agree with him wholeheartedly on healthcare (that we should  have a single-payer system).  Like Bernie, I'm pro-choice, pro-legalization, and anti-death penalty.   I agree with him generally on LGBT and racial rights, though I don't necessarily agree with some of his systemic positions on that. 

Even some - very few, but some - of his economic policies make sense, but fail in the implementation.  I don't mind looking hard at student loans, but just relieving people unilaterally of their debt - debt that they took on with full will and intent - is not right.   And while I support revising the tax code, we can't and shouldn't rely on the "top 10%" to fund this country.  I agree with a progressive tax rate, but with reason. 

[Cool Chris]

Guess we've moved on from silencing opposing views to punching them right in the face. Aside from the specific act of violence, this article reads like it is a "thing" now to locate potential targets and coordinate attacks on them.

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/man-with-swastika-armband-gets-punched-in-downtown-seattle-while-yelling-at-people/611177899

[Adami]

Guess we've moved on from silencing opposing views to punching them right in the face. Aside from the specific act of violence, this article reads like it is a "thing" now to locate potential targets and coordinate attacks on them.

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/man-with-swastika-armband-gets-punched-in-downtown-seattle-while-yelling-at-people/611177899

Not arguing with your point at all, but this made me question something.

How would people react to a headline that said something like "Man wearing "I support baby rape" shirt punched in face"? Would people cheer that on?

[portnoy311]

The irony of this thread is always good for a giggle. OP busted out a breitbart link, and later got himself banned for doing exactly what this thread's topic is.

Anyway, fta:

After receiving reports about a man instigating fights, officers responded to the area and found him on the ground. The man refused to give information about what happened, took off his armband, and left, according to police.

It's less interesting if you remove the armband from the situation. Then it's just a guy trying to instigate fights who gets himself knocked out.


I don't condone Antifa at all, just as I don't think any rational person does. Yes, I am worried about them. But I am also a little weary about those ready to call Antifa "the left."

[antigoon]

removing the fact that he openly advocates for ethnic cleansing makes him less sympathetic?

[El Barto]

The irony of this thread is always good for a giggle. OP busted out a breitbart link, and later got himself banned for doing exactly what this thread's topic is.

Anyway, fta:

After receiving reports about a man instigating fights, officers responded to the area and found him on the ground. The man refused to give information about what happened, took off his armband, and left, according to police.

It's less interesting if you remove the armband from the situation. Then it's just a guy trying to instigate fights who gets himself knocked out.


I don't condone Antifa at all, just as I don't think any rational person does. Yes, I am worried about them. But I am also a little weary about those ready to call Antifa "the left."

He sure didn't seem to be instigating fights when he got waylayed. He was backing away with his hand out, clearly trying to avoid violence. He should have pressed charges. I'd kind of like to see the "hero" go to jail on this one.

But you're right. Takeaway the armband and it is a very different story. Then it's just a guy speaking in a public forum that gets clocked by a guy twice his size who didn't like what he had to say.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4497126/racist-nazi-armband-punched-unconscious-seattle-video/   

[portnoy311]

removing the fact that he openly advocates for ethnic cleansing makes him less sympathetic?

I just said the story gets less interesting, nothing about him being sympathetic. It only becomes a free speech discussion if the guy is wearing an armband. Otherwise it's a run of the mill guy trying to be violent and getting it.

[portnoy311]

The irony of this thread is always good for a giggle. OP busted out a breitbart link, and later got himself banned for doing exactly what this thread's topic is.

Anyway, fta:

After receiving reports about a man instigating fights, officers responded to the area and found him on the ground. The man refused to give information about what happened, took off his armband, and left, according to police.

It's less interesting if you remove the armband from the situation. Then it's just a guy trying to instigate fights who gets himself knocked out.


I don't condone Antifa at all, just as I don't think any rational person does. Yes, I am worried about them. But I am also a little weary about those ready to call Antifa "the left."

He sure didn't seem to be instigating fights when he got waylayed. He was backing away with his hand out, clearly trying to avoid violence. He should have pressed charges. I'd kind of like to see the "hero" go to jail on this one.

But you're right. Takeaway the armband and it is a very different story. Then it's just a guy speaking in a public forum that gets clocked by a guy twice his size who didn't like what he had to say.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4497126/racist-nazi-armband-punched-unconscious-seattle-video/   

I don't know, we only saw the 3 seconds prior to the punch. Multiple people reported him for trying to pick fights - those aren't antifa members calling the cops. It's hard to guess what really happened, but I'd still place my trust in the general public over a guy walking around Seattle (of all places) wearing a Nazi armband (of all things, I doubt he was just out for a stroll and decided to dust off his Nazi armband). Especially when the only thing that entails is a post on a message board, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over him or his weak chin. I'm sure the proper people have more information than I do at this point.

[Stadler]

I don't condone Antifa at all, just as I don't think any rational person does. Yes, I am worried about them. But I am also a little weary about those ready to call Antifa "the left."

Just curious, but why?   Why is it any different than the "Nazi's" being called the "right"?   I lean right and I can't even begin to tell you how much I abhor what the Nazi's stand for, and you can even take out the "I hate Jews/gays/immigrants" from that.    But they get lumped in with the right all the time.

The answer, in my view, is that "extremism is extremism", and it fails not because of WHAT it stands for, but HOW it stands for it.  I disagree with many, but I don't want to KILL them, or silence them.

[El Barto]

The irony of this thread is always good for a giggle. OP busted out a breitbart link, and later got himself banned for doing exactly what this thread's topic is.

Anyway, fta:

After receiving reports about a man instigating fights, officers responded to the area and found him on the ground. The man refused to give information about what happened, took off his armband, and left, according to police.

It's less interesting if you remove the armband from the situation. Then it's just a guy trying to instigate fights who gets himself knocked out.


I don't condone Antifa at all, just as I don't think any rational person does. Yes, I am worried about them. But I am also a little weary about those ready to call Antifa "the left."

He sure didn't seem to be instigating fights when he got waylayed. He was backing away with his hand out, clearly trying to avoid violence. He should have pressed charges. I'd kind of like to see the "hero" go to jail on this one.

But you're right. Takeaway the armband and it is a very different story. Then it's just a guy speaking in a public forum that gets clocked by a guy twice his size who didn't like what he had to say.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4497126/racist-nazi-armband-punched-unconscious-seattle-video/   

I don't know, we only saw the 3 seconds prior to the punch. Multiple people reported him for trying to pick fights - those aren't antifa members calling the cops. It's hard to guess what really happened, but I'd still place my trust in the general public over a guy walking around Seattle (of all places) wearing a Nazi armband (of all things, I doubt he was just out for a stroll and decided to dust off his Nazi armband). Especially when the only thing that entails is a post on a message board, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over him or his weak chin. I'm sure the proper people have more information than I do at this point.

I wouldn't trust the people of Seattle to distinguish between picking fights and picking arguments any more than I'd trust them to bathe regularly. In any case, that was assault and while, like you, I'm not too bent out of shape about it, the people who are calling him a hero are just as fucking bad as he is. That was two assholes confronting each other and a lot more assholes happy that their guy won.