Author Topic: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)  (Read 9702 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #175 on: July 03, 2017, 03:26:08 PM »
Your implication here is that I'm picking my "standard" with the aim of still being able to rag on Grabby, and it is insulting.

Honestly, I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone could read your posts and possibly think otherwise. 
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Online kingshmegland

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #176 on: July 03, 2017, 04:20:18 PM »
I have Republican leanings but he should be held to a standard and as a constituent, he's let me down.

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #177 on: July 04, 2017, 11:58:32 PM »
I don't think that tweet is that bad; it's a joke.  I mean, it's wrestling, FFS. :lol :lol :lol

I don't know. 

I mean, yes, it's a joke, but that doesn't exactly comfort me.  All it means is that the president of the United States (a president who has declared that the media is an enemy of the American people, mind you - was that a joke, too?) thinks it's totally funny to joke about assaulting a news organization. 

What would comfort me would be to see him stop telling jokes and start taking his job seriously.  He is the president of the United States.

It's a choreographed (and not real) assault.   

Sure.  And I suppose I could take that to mean that Trump is not actually enemies with CNN at all, that they in fact work for the same company and are paid to pretend to be enemies.  But I'm guessing that wasn't exactly Trump's intended message.  I'm guessing he was just saying 'heh, look at me beating up CNN!'
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #178 on: July 05, 2017, 05:14:49 AM »
I guess we should also ignore the fact that the.gif originated from Reddit's supposed largest alt-right extremist forum, and the creator of it (HanAssholeSolo) is apologizing for it now that he's been identified?  Whatever the reason for the tweet, the forum (and alt-right in general) can easily interpret it as support for their views and beliefs.  This from a man who once said of the alt-right "I donít want to energize the group, and I disavow the group, and if they are energized I want to look into it and find out why."

Tweeting their stuff = disavowing them?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #179 on: July 05, 2017, 08:34:55 AM »
Obama whined about Fox News a little too much, but Trump has taken it to a whole new level with CNN.  I get that he can't get over how in the tank the Clinton News Network
was for their namesake, but it's just stupid to obsess over stuff like this.


Obama and Hillary blamed an entire election - involving the votes of something like 130 MILLION people, on a news outlet that would cream their jeans for something like 5 million viewers.  It makes NO sense, and reeks of playing to popular mythology.  But when Trump does it, god forbid we "NORMALIZE THE SHIT SHOW".   Mofo, please.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #180 on: July 05, 2017, 08:45:12 AM »
I guess we should also ignore the fact that the.gif originated from Reddit's supposed largest alt-right extremist forum, and the creator of it (HanAssholeSolo) is apologizing for it now that he's been identified?  Whatever the reason for the tweet, the forum (and alt-right in general) can easily interpret it as support for their views and beliefs.  This from a man who once said of the alt-right "I donít want to energize the group, and I disavow the group, and if they are energized I want to look into it and find out why."

Tweeting their stuff = disavowing them?

Did he know where it came from? Did he know the pedigree of the person that made the video? 

So when I listen to Ted Nugent's music (or Joan Baez's) I'm now adhering to all their beliefs too?    I just bought a Mercyful Fate record; am I now a Satanist?  (I lied about that last thing; I can't stand his voice).   I'm a pro-choice Republican; does that mean I can't voice my belief because I might be <GASP!> energizing the Democrats?   

The video was juvenile, and I would hope for more from my President (I'm vehemently anti-Twitter to begin with) but to read all this into it speaks far more about the reader, in my opinion, than the President.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #181 on: July 05, 2017, 08:49:57 AM »
Obama whined about Fox News a little too much, but Trump has taken it to a whole new level with CNN.  I get that he can't get over how in the tank the Clinton News Network
was for their namesake, but it's just stupid to obsess over stuff like this.


Obama and Hillary blamed an entire election - involving the votes of something like 130 MILLION people, on a news outlet that would cream their jeans for something like 5 million viewers.  It makes NO sense, and reeks of playing to popular mythology.  But when Trump does it, god forbid we "NORMALIZE THE SHIT SHOW".   Mofo, please.
In your lifetime have you ever seen a president so hellbent to take on and belittle any media source? Or one so self-absorbed that he has to attack any outlet that dare print something he doesn't like?

And in topical news, his tweets about DPRK and the ICBM launch are a new low. Our foreign policy is represented by the inane tweets of a 13yo girl, minus the nuance and thoughtfulness.

Quote
North Korea has just launched another missile. Does this guy have anything better to do with his life? Hard to believe that South Korea and Japan will put up with this much longer. Perhaps China will put a heavy move on North Korea and end this nonsense once and for all!

Imagine if Grabby were president in 1962. "Nicky's so inadequate he has to put his missiles right next to us. I could hit him with my missile all the way from here. Such a loser."
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #182 on: July 05, 2017, 09:01:08 AM »
Obama whined about Fox News a little too much, but Trump has taken it to a whole new level with CNN.  I get that he can't get over how in the tank the Clinton News Network
was for their namesake, but it's just stupid to obsess over stuff like this.


Obama and Hillary blamed an entire election - involving the votes of something like 130 MILLION people, on a news outlet that would cream their jeans for something like 5 million viewers.  It makes NO sense, and reeks of playing to popular mythology.  But when Trump does it, god forbid we "NORMALIZE THE SHIT SHOW".   Mofo, please.

Are they really comparable though? Obama made comments on Fox News from time to time when asked about it. Trump seems to have become hell bent on making the take down of CNN is #1 priority. It almost seems like it's more important to him than, you know, running the country and stuff. Maybe I have selective memory of Obama's presidency, but I don't recall him saying stuff like....

Jul 2, 2017 08:21:42 AM #FraudNewsCNN #FNN https://t.co/WYUnHjjUjg

Jul 1, 2017 05:08:37 PM I am thinking about changing the name #FakeNews CNN to #FraudNewsCNN!

Jul 1, 2017 08:12:40 AM I am extremely pleased to see that @CNN has finally been exposed as #FakeNews and garbage journalism. It's about time!

Jun 27, 2017 07:47:17 AM So they caught Fake News CNN cold, but what about NBC, CBS & ABC? What about the failing @nytimes & @washingtonpost? They are all Fake News!

Jun 27, 2017 07:30:38 AM Fake News CNN is looking at big management changes now that they got caught falsely pushing their phony Russian stories. Ratings way down!

Jun 27, 2017 05:33:42 AM Wow, CNN had to retract big story on "Russia," with 3 employees forced to resign. What about all the other phony stories they do? FAKE NEWS!

Jun 6, 2017 07:15:36 AM Sorry folks, but if I would have relied on the Fake News of CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, washpost or nytimes, I would have had ZERO chance winning WH   

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #183 on: July 05, 2017, 10:44:01 AM »
I guess we should also ignore the fact that the.gif originated from Reddit's supposed largest alt-right extremist forum, and the creator of it (HanAssholeSolo) is apologizing for it now that he's been identified?  Whatever the reason for the tweet, the forum (and alt-right in general) can easily interpret it as support for their views and beliefs.  This from a man who once said of the alt-right "I donít want to energize the group, and I disavow the group, and if they are energized I want to look into it and find out why."

Tweeting their stuff = disavowing them?

Did he know where it came from? Did he know the pedigree of the person that made the video? 

So when I listen to Ted Nugent's music (or Joan Baez's) I'm now adhering to all their beliefs too?    I just bought a Mercyful Fate record; am I now a Satanist?  (I lied about that last thing; I can't stand his voice).   I'm a pro-choice Republican; does that mean I can't voice my belief because I might be <GASP!> energizing the Democrats?   

The video was juvenile, and I would hope for more from my President (I'm vehemently anti-Twitter to begin with) but to read all this into it speaks far more about the reader, in my opinion, than the President.

You're rightly entitled to think that.  I'm not sure what you're implying that it states about "the reader" (which apparently is me in this case)? There are numerous outlets 'reading into it', and questioning his intent - I'm sure as a lawyer you are acutely aware of the 'law of unintended consequences'.  First, we don't know if he knew where it came from.  Second, I don't think you have 10s of millions of followers that you influence.  Third, you're not (allegedly) the most powerful person in the country.  Do you not believe that what POTUS says and does matters and or carries influence?  The people on that Reddit forum sure did.

I agree, it was likely just a juvenile way of showing his followers that he believes he's kicking CNN's ass.  Did he know the source - jury is out... I could easily believe either answer.  But, unintended consequences and all.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #184 on: July 05, 2017, 01:46:42 PM »
Let's quickly shift focus to Trump's son.

Out of curiosity, what exactly are Big Govt, opprressive taxation, anti 2A left wing socialists celebrating today?
ó Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) July 4, 2017


He's really got the conservative buzzwords down, doesn't he? I'm amazed he managed to fit so many into a 140 characters. Why is a statement like this even necessary? Seriously. He's the son of the fucking president. Why? What good comes of this other than verifying the delusions of a few million people and getting Americans to hate each other a little further? I swear, as more and more time goes by, I'm convinced that Trump, Trump's family, and the bulk of Trump's supporters don't have a care in the world for what comes of this country. They don't seem to care about anything other than trolling and "shit posting" all over the internet.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #185 on: July 05, 2017, 06:02:59 PM »
I guess we should also ignore the fact that the.gif originated from Reddit's supposed largest alt-right extremist forum, and the creator of it (HanAssholeSolo) is apologizing for it now that he's been identified?  Whatever the reason for the tweet, the forum (and alt-right in general) can easily interpret it as support for their views and beliefs.  This from a man who once said of the alt-right "I donít want to energize the group, and I disavow the group, and if they are energized I want to look into it and find out why."

Tweeting their stuff = disavowing them?

Consistency is not Donald Trump's friend (or any of anyone who frantically reaches for the retweet button every time someone posts something they agree with). :lol :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #186 on: July 06, 2017, 11:01:50 AM »
Obama whined about Fox News a little too much, but Trump has taken it to a whole new level with CNN.  I get that he can't get over how in the tank the Clinton News Network
was for their namesake, but it's just stupid to obsess over stuff like this.


Obama and Hillary blamed an entire election - involving the votes of something like 130 MILLION people, on a news outlet that would cream their jeans for something like 5 million viewers.  It makes NO sense, and reeks of playing to popular mythology.  But when Trump does it, god forbid we "NORMALIZE THE SHIT SHOW".   Mofo, please.
In your lifetime have you ever seen a president so hellbent to take on and belittle any media source? Or one so self-absorbed that he has to attack any outlet that dare print something he doesn't like?

And in topical news, his tweets about DPRK and the ICBM launch are a new low. Our foreign policy is represented by the inane tweets of a 13yo girl, minus the nuance and thoughtfulness.

You're preaching to the choir.  That ANY of this is unfolding on Twitter is a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned.


Quote
Quote
North Korea has just launched another missile. Does this guy have anything better to do with his life? Hard to believe that South Korea and Japan will put up with this much longer. Perhaps China will put a heavy move on North Korea and end this nonsense once and for all!

Imagine if Grabby were president in 1962. "Nicky's so inadequate he has to put his missiles right next to us. I could hit him with my missile all the way from here. Such a loser."

Haha.  It's funny though; JFK has a fair amount of resonance for me lately (my daughter goes to a school that has ties to him) and more and more I realize that JFK is what Trump COULD be, but he seems to have no ability to rise above, and Trump is what people worried that JFK WOULD be, except that he gloriously DID rise above.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #187 on: July 06, 2017, 11:04:58 AM »
Obama whined about Fox News a little too much, but Trump has taken it to a whole new level with CNN.  I get that he can't get over how in the tank the Clinton News Network
was for their namesake, but it's just stupid to obsess over stuff like this.


Obama and Hillary blamed an entire election - involving the votes of something like 130 MILLION people, on a news outlet that would cream their jeans for something like 5 million viewers.  It makes NO sense, and reeks of playing to popular mythology.  But when Trump does it, god forbid we "NORMALIZE THE SHIT SHOW".   Mofo, please.

Are they really comparable though? Obama made comments on Fox News from time to time when asked about it. Trump seems to have become hell bent on making the take down of CNN is #1 priority. It almost seems like it's more important to him than, you know, running the country and stuff. Maybe I have selective memory of Obama's presidency, but I don't recall him saying stuff like....

Jul 2, 2017 08:21:42 AM #FraudNewsCNN #FNN https://t.co/WYUnHjjUjg

Jul 1, 2017 05:08:37 PM I am thinking about changing the name #FakeNews CNN to #FraudNewsCNN!

Jul 1, 2017 08:12:40 AM I am extremely pleased to see that @CNN has finally been exposed as #FakeNews and garbage journalism. It's about time!

Jun 27, 2017 07:47:17 AM So they caught Fake News CNN cold, but what about NBC, CBS & ABC? What about the failing @nytimes & @washingtonpost? They are all Fake News!

Jun 27, 2017 07:30:38 AM Fake News CNN is looking at big management changes now that they got caught falsely pushing their phony Russian stories. Ratings way down!

Jun 27, 2017 05:33:42 AM Wow, CNN had to retract big story on "Russia," with 3 employees forced to resign. What about all the other phony stories they do? FAKE NEWS!

Jun 6, 2017 07:15:36 AM Sorry folks, but if I would have relied on the Fake News of CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, washpost or nytimes, I would have had ZERO chance winning WH

No, no, you're right.  I have no argument with you.  I was going slightly different in direction and saying that the idea that somehow Trump is unprecedented - and I really have a problem with the propaganda (and bullying) of the "normalizing" argment - is false.    Yeah, he's ramping it up, but it's no different than the Stones ramping it up after Elvis, and the Sex Pistols ramping it up after the Stones. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #188 on: July 06, 2017, 11:13:15 AM »
You're rightly entitled to think that.  I'm not sure what you're implying that it states about "the reader" (which apparently is me in this case)? There are numerous outlets 'reading into it', and questioning his intent - I'm sure as a lawyer you are acutely aware of the 'law of unintended consequences'.  First, we don't know if he knew where it came from.  Second, I don't think you have 10s of millions of followers that you influence.  Third, you're not (allegedly) the most powerful person in the country.  Do you not believe that what POTUS says and does matters and or carries influence?  The people on that Reddit forum sure did.

I agree, it was likely just a juvenile way of showing his followers that he believes he's kicking CNN's ass.  Did he know the source - jury is out... I could easily believe either answer.  But, unintended consequences and all.

I don't disagree - in fact, just the opposite - with the notion of unintended consequences, and that is in some part why I am so against the notion of "Presidency by Twitter".   But while I wasn't singling you out at all, yeah, I think it speaks to the reader.   When you hear/see a statement, you automatically view it through your filter.  ALL of us, myself included, have a filter of some sort, with inherent biases.   But not all biases are equal.   

If Tom Brady says "I will do whatever it takes to win.", the Patriot fan will say "Yeah, like managing your diet to the calorie, practicing seven days a week in the off-season, and abstaining from sex with that lovely Giselle the night before games!", and the Colts fan will say "Yeah, like draining every last drop of air from the football moments before gametime".  That's on the reader.   

Like that video on the humor page. It's only a few seconds of a longer piece, but since it's "TRUMP", it's about how stupid he looked.  PERIOD.  But in the longer piece, CLEARLY the protocol was to have the President's shake, and the First Ladies shake, and then swap.  The Polish First Lady got caught behind the President of Poland and was late to her cue.  Whether he stuck his hand out to help her save face, or because he was clueless, or for some other reason is not known.  Whether she was purposefully ignoring him, or simply following the protocol, or scrambling to catch up, is not known (at least I haven't seen any official statements on the matter).    But some of us are predetermined to see TRUMP BAD in all scenarios and some of us are willing to consider the various possibilities and arrive at a likely (though likely never proven) conclusion. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #189 on: July 06, 2017, 11:16:48 AM »
Let's quickly shift focus to Trump's son.

Out of curiosity, what exactly are Big Govt, opprressive taxation, anti 2A left wing socialists celebrating today?
ó Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) July 4, 2017


He's really got the conservative buzzwords down, doesn't he? I'm amazed he managed to fit so many into a 140 characters. Why is a statement like this even necessary? Seriously. He's the son of the fucking president. Why? What good comes of this other than verifying the delusions of a few million people and getting Americans to hate each other a little further? I swear, as more and more time goes by, I'm convinced that Trump, Trump's family, and the bulk of Trump's supporters don't have a care in the world for what comes of this country. They don't seem to care about anything other than trolling and "shit posting" all over the internet.

He does have the lingo down.  I had to google "2A" to get Second Amendment.   

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #190 on: July 06, 2017, 11:42:25 AM »
I don't disagree - in fact, just the opposite - with the notion of unintended consequences, and that is in some part why I am so against the notion of "Presidency by Twitter".   But while I wasn't singling you out at all, yeah, I think it speaks to the reader.   When you hear/see a statement, you automatically view it through your filter.  ALL of us, myself included, have a filter of some sort, with inherent biases.   But not all biases are equal.   

On this, we can agree.   :omg:  We all look/listen at life through our biases resulting from a lifetime of learned (taught?) behaviour.  My "bias" as it relates to Trump typically varies from contempt, to disgust, to shock, to exasperation, to annoyance.

Like that video on the humor page.  *snipped / 100% valid analysis*

Dude... it's humour.  Humour is OFTEN the result of something taken out of context.  You ever watch Three's Company?   :D
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #191 on: July 06, 2017, 12:52:17 PM »
I don't disagree - in fact, just the opposite - with the notion of unintended consequences, and that is in some part why I am so against the notion of "Presidency by Twitter".   But while I wasn't singling you out at all, yeah, I think it speaks to the reader.   When you hear/see a statement, you automatically view it through your filter.  ALL of us, myself included, have a filter of some sort, with inherent biases.   But not all biases are equal.   

On this, we can agree.   :omg:  We all look/listen at life through our biases resulting from a lifetime of learned (taught?) behaviour.  My "bias" as it relates to Trump typically varies from contempt, to disgust, to shock, to exasperation, to annoyance.

But don't we owe to ourselves - if not others - to understand that bias, and accommodate the fact that others have theirs too?

Why does your 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' matter, and have to be accommodated, but someone's 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' for, say, a flamboyant gay man, get labeled bigotry?   


Quote
Like that video on the humor page.  *snipped / 100% valid analysis*

Dude... it's humour.  Humour is OFTEN the result of something taken out of context.  You ever watch Three's Company?   :D

Bro, I loved Three's Company.  Jack Tripper was my idol.   But I'm not a huge fan of humor that makes a specific person the butt of the joke.   

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #192 on: July 06, 2017, 01:01:38 PM »
John Ritter's portrayal of Jack Tripper will always be one of the best comedic performances in the history of TV and film.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #193 on: July 06, 2017, 01:17:12 PM »
GET THE F*** OUT.

So I went on to look at Wiki for "Jack Tripper".   And it talked about how "Three's Company" went to "Three's a Crowd".  I didn't remember that (or the girl who played his "fiancť", so for shit's and giggles, I googled her (Mary Cadorette).  Turns out, she owns an antique store here in CT, and get this:  the store is in a barn that is let by the owner of an adjoining house.  The house was recently for sale, and if you bought the house you had an option on the barn and the tenant.   My wife and I were THISCLOSE to making an offer on that exact house!   I could have been her landlord! 

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #194 on: July 06, 2017, 03:30:30 PM »
But don't we owe to ourselves - if not others - to understand that bias, and accommodate the fact that others have theirs too?

Why does your 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' matter, and have to be accommodated, but someone's 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' for, say, a flamboyant gay man, get labeled bigotry?   

First, I do recognize that others have a "bias", or predisposition, or preconceptions, or whatever you want to call it.  To try and understand and accommodate for all of those from everyone?  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "accommodate", but no, I don't think I owe that to myself.

On your second point, please tell me you're not asking for an explanation on why there's a difference between my statements towards a behaviour, or particular action/statement... something that someone chooses, and similar statements towards a persons sexuality (something they don't chose... something they simply 'are').  I'm not shocked about Trump as a person, or hold contempt towards him as a person (and EVERY thing that he does/says), but am that way about MOST OF his actions/statements.  There's a difference.  Again, as a lawyer, I believe you know this.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 04:55:10 AM by jingle.boy »
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #195 on: July 07, 2017, 12:14:17 AM »
But don't we owe to ourselves - if not others - to understand that bias, and accommodate the fact that others have theirs too?

Why does your 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' matter, and have to be accommodated, but someone's 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' for, say, a flamboyant gay man, get labeled bigotry?   

Not to pile on after jingle's post, but I'd like to clarify: is it your position that all biases are equally reasonable or unreasonable?
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #196 on: July 07, 2017, 07:28:53 AM »
But don't we owe to ourselves - if not others - to understand that bias, and accommodate the fact that others have theirs too?

Why does your 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' matter, and have to be accommodated, but someone's 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' for, say, a flamboyant gay man, get labeled bigotry?   

First, I do recognize that others have a "bias", or predisposition, or preconceptions, or whatever you want to call it.  To try and understand and accommodate for all of those from everyone?  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "accommodate", but no, I don't think I owe that to myself.

HAHAHA, that is SO telling.  I don't mean "recognize others' bias" and "accommodate their bias".  I meant recognize YOUR bias and accommodate that YOUR bias may not make you right and may put you at odds with others.    Fuck my old boots; I can't IMAGINE ever being that certain about something that I was positive I was right and roughly half of the 7.4 BILLION (or 360 million, if you want to limit it to U.S. and Canada) rest of the people were perhaps wrong.

Quote
On your second point, please tell me you're not asking for an explanation on why there's a difference between my statements towards a behaviour, or particular action/statement... something that someone chooses, and similar statements towards a persons sexuality (something they don't chose... something they simply 'are').  I'm not shocked about Trump as a person, or hold contempt towards him as a person (and EVERY thing that he does/says), but am that way about MOST OF his actions/statements.  There's a difference.  Again, as a lawyer, I believe you know this.

Nice try, but no.  I didn't say "gay" man.  I said "FLAMBOYANTLY gay man".  What you wear, what you project of yourself, is absolutely choice, and if it's not then neither is what Trump projects of himself.    You can justify your form of bigotry as "nature vs. nuture" all you want, but at the end of the day, you're casting judgment (intolerance) on a person who holds different opinions than you.  If it was only about the "opinions" and not the man, you wouldn't be calling him Grabby at every turn, and claiming that blown handshakes are Carlin-esque humor.    Not saying you have to do something different, but just recognize what it is you're doing and own it.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #197 on: July 07, 2017, 07:37:51 AM »
But don't we owe to ourselves - if not others - to understand that bias, and accommodate the fact that others have theirs too?

Why does your 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' matter, and have to be accommodated, but someone's 'contempt, disgust, shock, exasperation, annoyance' for, say, a flamboyant gay man, get labeled bigotry?   

Not to pile on after jingle's post, but I'd like to clarify: is it your position that all biases are equally reasonable or unreasonable?

No (although I imagine I have to go a lot farther to find one that is "unreasonable" than some people here), I am saying that we have an obligation to understand our own biases and account for them.   One way is to openly acknowledge them, which may be hard to do (or even impossible), or create issues ("Hey guys, I know I hate Jews, but check this out!").    But a more simple way, and a more collaborative way, is to simply recognize that I'm one of 360 million people, and not everyone thinks the way I do.  I can't assume I'm right on a given issue.  I can articulate my point as best I can, and I can amass statistics to support my case.   But at the end of the day I have to leave SOME room for the fact that others may actually be right, and since the world is an odious place, that the "odious" answer may have some element of truth in it.   Referring to people we disagree with as "Grabby" or "Obummer" doesn't do that.  Calling people that don't agree with us (and don't vote for us) "deplorable" doesn't do that.    Assuming that EVERYONE prioritizes issues the same way we do doesn't do that.

Don't make the common mistake here; I'm not talking about ACCEPTANCE, and I'm not talking about artificial constructs like the recent fad of talking about "normalization" as a rationalization to do and say whatever you want.

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #198 on: July 07, 2017, 08:24:48 AM »
You can justify your form of bigotry as "nature vs. nuture" all you want, but at the end of the day, you're casting judgment (intolerance) on a person who holds different opinions than you.  If it was only about the "opinions" and not the man, you wouldn't be calling him Grabby at every turn, and claiming that blown handshakes are Carlin-esque humor.    Not saying you have to do something different, but just recognize what it is you're doing and own it.   

I don't have intolerance for the man (despite your opinion that I do)... I have intolerance for his behaviour/actions given the position that he is in - I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this.  If you don't want to listen/believe, then perhaps you should recognize and accommodate your own biases?   ;)

If he was just the Celebrity-Apprentice guy, I couldn't give two shits about his behaviour - I certainly didn't prior to him campaigning.  But what he does/says has MASSIVE repercussions and impact - yes, even to Canadian citizens.  As for calling him Grabby... I stole that from Chino (I think?), and thought it was a smarmy nickname that I found a mild level of humour in. You don't, that's fine.  I have to try and laugh at a lot of the things he says/does, because if I took it 100% serious, I'd probably want to kill myself.  Calling him 'Grabby' says nothing about me being a bigot or intolerant of HIM.  And for the record, I said nothing about the hand-shake issue yesterday - other than acknowledging you had a 100% valid analysis of it.

Last time I checked, you weren't in my head, so you're not exactly in a position to say what my opinions are vs my "form of bigotry".
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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #199 on: July 07, 2017, 12:01:23 PM »
You can justify your form of bigotry as "nature vs. nuture" all you want, but at the end of the day, you're casting judgment (intolerance) on a person who holds different opinions than you.  If it was only about the "opinions" and not the man, you wouldn't be calling him Grabby at every turn, and claiming that blown handshakes are Carlin-esque humor.    Not saying you have to do something different, but just recognize what it is you're doing and own it.   

I don't have intolerance for the man (despite your opinion that I do)... I have intolerance for his behaviour/actions given the position that he is in - I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this.  If you don't want to listen/believe, then perhaps you should recognize and accommodate your own biases?   ;)

No, I hear your claim of distinction, but intolerance is intolerance.  You don't think every case of intolerance in the history of man had a similar "rationalization"? 

Quote
If he was just the Celebrity-Apprentice guy, I couldn't give two shits about his behaviour - I certainly didn't prior to him campaigning.  But what he does/says has MASSIVE repercussions and impact - yes, even to Canadian citizens.  As for calling him Grabby... I stole that from Chino (I think?), and thought it was a smarmy nickname that I found a mild level of humour in. You don't, that's fine.  I have to try and laugh at a lot of the things he says/does, because if I took it 100% serious, I'd probably want to kill myself.  Calling him 'Grabby' says nothing about me being a bigot or intolerant of HIM.  And for the record, I said nothing about the hand-shake issue yesterday - other than acknowledging you had a 100% valid analysis of it.

Last time I checked, you weren't in my head, so you're not exactly in a position to say what my opinions are vs my "form of bigotry".

I don't have to be in your head.  You said it.  There's no question that what the President does has massive repercussions.   That applies to every President.   But it's all relative and that's where I'm coming from; does Trump's video of a body with a CNN logo on it REALLY have more repercussions than a treaty that impacts the economics of literally every nation on earth?    Does the picture now floating around of Donald Trump's 2012 tweet that says "I've never seen a skinny person drinking a Diet Coke" and an image of him in Hamburg with a Diet Coke next to his chair have more repercussions than a terrorist organization with cells in at least 50 countries?   

And when you add to it the real distinct possibility that Trump is not a singularity at all, but rather the inevitable conclusion of the recent spate of "intolerance to intolerance" that has proliferated in the last 15 years, I think there is a lot for which all of us should be personally accountable.   As I have said often, "tend our own garden". 

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #200 on: July 07, 2017, 12:05:57 PM »
Quote from: Stadler

does Trump's video of a body with a CNN logo on it REALLY have more repercussions than a treaty that impacts the economics of literally every nation on earth?    Does the picture now floating around of Donald Trump's 2012 tweet that says "I've never seen a skinny person drinking a Diet Coke" and an image of him in Hamburg with a Diet Coke next to his chair have more repercussions than a terrorist organization with cells in at least 50 countries?   

Why do you insist on saying we (or whoever you're talking about, it's convientely vague) treat all these things the same?

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #201 on: July 07, 2017, 12:06:42 PM »
Stadler, I know you don't like Trump, but you can't compare his drinking a diet coke with a terrorist organization around the world.

I mean, I can see where you're coming from on the similarities, but I think you're pushing it a little bit with your anti-Trump agenda.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #202 on: July 07, 2017, 12:21:46 PM »

I don't have to be in your head.  You said it.  There's no question that what the President does has massive repercussions.   That applies to every President.   But it's all relative and that's where I'm coming from; does Trump's video of a body with a CNN logo on it REALLY have more repercussions than a treaty that impacts the economics of literally every nation on earth?    Does the picture now floating around of Donald Trump's 2012 tweet that says "I've never seen a skinny person drinking a Diet Coke" and an image of him in Hamburg with a Diet Coke next to his chair have more repercussions than a terrorist organization with cells in at least 50 countries?   
I can only say that from my isolated perspective, the point is that the person dealing with those very serious things is the same juvenile twit evidenced by the trivial things posted here. Shouldn't the fact that he behaves like a fucking retard concern us all when global treaties and combating international terrorism are his freaking job?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #203 on: July 07, 2017, 01:21:27 PM »
Stadler, I know you don't like Trump, but you can't compare his drinking a diet coke with a terrorist organization around the world.

I mean, I can see where you're coming from on the similarities, but I think you're pushing it a little bit with your anti-Trump agenda.

I'm not comparing HIS drinking of Diet Coke with terrorism, I'm saying that for someone who claims to be 'above the petty bullshit' (my words) there's an inordinate amount of time spent on dumb shit like Coke bottles, and CNN videos, and handshakes (real or snubbed).    And what discourse there is about the issues is limited to soundbites of "22 million!" from the CBO without any analysis as to whether those 22 million are by choice or by force, whether they are there because of economics or something else, or whether they have access elsewhere to quality healthcare.   

If it's REALLY about the politics, let's make it about the politics and leave the petty nonsense for lesser intellects (I kid on that last part).  But we all know it's not, and that's where my ultimate point lies:   Trump is not a singularity; he is an inevitable and logical conclusion of where politics has been going for well over a decade (maybe two decades).  Trump isn't the "tat" for the "tit" of how Obama was treated; since Reagan/Bush, each President has been treated in a fashion that is a reaction to the one that came before.  But increasingly, non-political things started to intrude.  Bill Clinton's sexual conquests.   George Bush's intellect.   Obama's nationality.  And increasingly, more and more emphasis has been placed on things that don't actually sway the needle, like the impact of social media, and Fox News and now Fake News.   To the point that it escalates and becomes far too tangential to the issues at hand.  Depending on how you want to look at it, Obama was akin to ELP circa Works and Yes circa Yesterdays... and we're in the Sex Pistols phase.  Hopefully, reason will take over and we'll avoid the Disco era, and go right to the NWOBHM.   

You can focus on the Sid Vicious/Johnny Rotten aspect of Trump (the CNN video, the coke bottles) all you want, but at the end of the day it's going to be the Joe Stuermers and Iggy Pops and Ramones (i.e. the substantive issues) that will carry the day.   

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #204 on: July 07, 2017, 01:32:58 PM »

 it's going to be the Joe Stuermers .

Was that when Genesis took that very punk rock turn when they replaced Steve Hackett for live shows?  :mehlin

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #205 on: July 07, 2017, 01:48:03 PM »
If it's REALLY about the politics, let's make it about the politics and leave the petty nonsense for lesser intellects (I kid on that last part).  But we all know it's not, and that's where my ultimate point lies:   Trump is not a singularity; he is an inevitable and logical conclusion of where politics has been going for well over a decade (maybe two decades).  Trump isn't the "tat" for the "tit" of how Obama was treated; since Reagan/Bush, each President has been treated in a fashion that is a reaction to the one that came before.  But increasingly, non-political things started to intrude.  Bill Clinton's sexual conquests.   George Bush's intellect.   Obama's nationality.  And increasingly, more and more emphasis has been placed on things that don't actually sway the needle, like the impact of social media, and Fox News and now Fake News.   To the point that it escalates and becomes far too tangential to the issues at hand.  Depending on how you want to look at it, Obama was akin to ELP circa Works and Yes circa Yesterdays... and we're in the Sex Pistols phase.  Hopefully, reason will take over and we'll avoid the Disco era, and go right to the NWOBHM.   

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #206 on: July 08, 2017, 12:19:12 AM »
Stadler, I have a few points for your consideration.  This is probably going to wind up being an obnoxiously long post, so I’ll try to TL;DR it at the end.   

First of all, I would like to say that I do agree with a lot of what you’re saying, particularly when it comes to understanding our own biases.  When it comes to intellectual discourse and social progress, I think it is crucially important for people to challenge their own perspectives and examine their own biases.  Otherwise, nothing ever changes.  Progress requires people to change their minds and be open to the possibility that they might be wrong.  When someone stubbornly clings to their opinions, they run the risk of standing in the way of that progress.  When everyone assumes that they are on the correct side of every argument, progress becomes entirely impossible. 

That being said, when it comes to examining our biases, I’m not sure we see eye to eye on what exactly constitutes bias.

As an unrelated example, I work in a managerial role, and part of my job involves catching and correcting other people’s mistakes.  Now, sometimes I will take the time to bring the mistake to the employee’s attention, but not always.  For example, if an employee has been with us for two years and I’ve never seen them make the mistake before, I’m much more likely to let it go and move on, as I can safely assume that they do know the correct procedure and simply slipped up.  On the other hand, if someone makes that same mistake frequently, I’m much more inclined to bring it up with them.

That is not bias.  It is pattern recognition.  The mistake I’m correcting might be minor enough that I don’t need to pull the employee aside and talk to him about it, but the fact that he keeps making similar mistakes means it is something I need to address and pay attention to. 

Same goes for Trump.

In a vacuum, the WWE/CNN Gif is not particularly problematic.  If a friend had shared it with me, I might have even laughed at it.  At the very worst, I would have rolled my eyes and thought it was silly.

So, why does it bother me that Trump shared it?

Because this is not a vacuum.  Trump can’t seem to go two days without taking a shot at CNN, or at the very least talking about Fake News.  He constantly insults news organizations, often referring them with nicknames designed to undermine them.  He has Tweeted that the mainstream media is an enemy of the American people.  And all the while he makes exceptions for the media outlets that do support him. 

These things add up.  And as they add up, it becomes more and more difficult for me to roll my eyes and write silly Tweets off as being just silly Tweets, because I start to see a pattern forming, and it’s a pattern I find deeply troubling.

When I see a world leader who seems intent on destroying the credibility of news organizations which are critical of him while simultaneously elevating the ones which support him, that alarms me.  That kind of behavior shouldn’t be dismissed just because it’s taking place on Twitter.

And for the record, it actually isn’t just taking place on Twitter.  Look at Sean Spicer’s press briefings.  When he gets a hard hitting question from a critical news outlet, he’s likely to stumble over his non-answer and try to move on as quickly as possible.  When he turns to Skype for a favorable question from an organization you’ve never heard of before, he thanks them for the great question and answers it in great detail.  As I recall, there was even a press briefing that several major liberal news outlets were blocked from attending at all.

Undermining trust in the media seems to be a key strategy of this White House.

And here’s the thing: the president’s attitude toward the media is a substantive issue.

Why?  Because I kind of value freedom of the press, and I worry about the direction our country might take under the guidance of a president whose idea of fair and unbiased reporting is Fox News. 


TL;DR:  There is a difference between having a bias and recognizing a pattern.  Trumps’ silly CNN Tweets are part of a pattern that I find deeply troubling, and when I react to those Tweets, I’m also reacting to the overall pattern.

/rambling
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 12:32:42 AM by Jaffa »
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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #207 on: July 08, 2017, 02:20:51 AM »
Stadler, I have a few points for your consideration.  This is probably going to wind up being an obnoxiously long post, so Iíll try to TL;DR it at the end.   

First of all, I would like to say that I do agree with a lot of what youíre saying, particularly when it comes to understanding our own biases.  When it comes to intellectual discourse and social progress, I think it is crucially important for people to challenge their own perspectives and examine their own biases.  Otherwise, nothing ever changes.  Progress requires people to change their minds and be open to the possibility that they might be wrong.  When someone stubbornly clings to their opinions, they run the risk of standing in the way of that progress.  When everyone assumes that they are on the correct side of every argument, progress becomes entirely impossible. 

That being said, when it comes to examining our biases, Iím not sure we see eye to eye on what exactly constitutes bias.

As an unrelated example, I work in a managerial role, and part of my job involves catching and correcting other peopleís mistakes.  Now, sometimes I will take the time to bring the mistake to the employeeís attention, but not always.  For example, if an employee has been with us for two years and Iíve never seen them make the mistake before, Iím much more likely to let it go and move on, as I can safely assume that they do know the correct procedure and simply slipped up.  On the other hand, if someone makes that same mistake frequently, Iím much more inclined to bring it up with them.

That is not bias.  It is pattern recognition.  The mistake Iím correcting might be minor enough that I donít need to pull the employee aside and talk to him about it, but the fact that he keeps making similar mistakes means it is something I need to address and pay attention to. 

Same goes for Trump.

In a vacuum, the WWE/CNN Gif is not particularly problematic.  If a friend had shared it with me, I might have even laughed at it.  At the very worst, I would have rolled my eyes and thought it was silly.

So, why does it bother me that Trump shared it?

Because this is not a vacuum.  Trump canít seem to go two days without taking a shot at CNN, or at the very least talking about Fake News.  He constantly insults news organizations, often referring them with nicknames designed to undermine them.  He has Tweeted that the mainstream media is an enemy of the American people.  And all the while he makes exceptions for the media outlets that do support him. 

These things add up.  And as they add up, it becomes more and more difficult for me to roll my eyes and write silly Tweets off as being just silly Tweets, because I start to see a pattern forming, and itís a pattern I find deeply troubling.

When I see a world leader who seems intent on destroying the credibility of news organizations which are critical of him while simultaneously elevating the ones which support him, that alarms me.  That kind of behavior shouldnít be dismissed just because itís taking place on Twitter.

And for the record, it actually isnít just taking place on Twitter.  Look at Sean Spicerís press briefings.  When he gets a hard hitting question from a critical news outlet, heís likely to stumble over his non-answer and try to move on as quickly as possible.  When he turns to Skype for a favorable question from an organization youíve never heard of before, he thanks them for the great question and answers it in great detail.  As I recall, there was even a press briefing that several major liberal news outlets were blocked from attending at all.

Undermining trust in the media seems to be a key strategy of this White House.

And hereís the thing: the presidentís attitude toward the media is a substantive issue.

Why?  Because I kind of value freedom of the press, and I worry about the direction our country might take under the guidance of a president whose idea of fair and unbiased reporting is Fox News. 


TL;DR:  There is a difference between having a bias and recognizing a pattern.  Trumpsí silly CNN Tweets are part of a pattern that I find deeply troubling, and when I react to those Tweets, Iím also reacting to the overall pattern.

/rambling
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #208 on: July 08, 2017, 04:43:54 AM »
If it's REALLY about the politics, let's make it about the politics and leave the petty nonsense for lesser intellects (I kid on that last part).  But we all know it's not, and that's where my ultimate point lies:   Trump is not a singularity; he is an inevitable and logical conclusion of where politics has been going for well over a decade (maybe two decades).  Trump isn't the "tat" for the "tit" of how Obama was treated; since Reagan/Bush, each President has been treated in a fashion that is a reaction to the one that came before.  But increasingly, non-political things started to intrude.  Bill Clinton's sexual conquests.   George Bush's intellect.   Obama's nationality.  And increasingly, more and more emphasis has been placed on things that don't actually sway the needle, like the impact of social media, and Fox News and now Fake News.   To the point that it escalates and becomes far too tangential to the issues at hand.

Great points here Stadler, and yes, I do see how "Trump" is the culmination of the last 25-ish years of US politics.  The difference I see between him and past POTUS' is that HE is the one that is (on purpose; ignorance;  indifference??) forcing the attention on meaningless/petty nonsense (which, according your statement, implies that Trump is a "lesser intellect").  Granted, Twitter didn't exist pre-Obama, but we certainly didn't see Clinton bragging about how which interns have a gag reflex and which don't (ironic you would bring up the Birther issue).  The end result is that Trump's actions/behaviour (largely on Twitter, but not always limited to his tweets) show his constituents - and the rest of the world - that politics/policy/governing/etc... is not what he is primarily focused on.  And, as the leader of the US, it is ergo not what the US is focused on.

I've read a few articles recently (non-US, thus non-"partisan") talking about how other countries are taking leadership positions where the US clearly doesn't want to lead anymore, as well as governments going around Trump in order to productively work with the US.  Whether his supporters simply can't see it because they can't step outside of their biases/echo chamber, or are burying their heads in the sand, the US's position in the global arena is weakening on a regular basis because of Trump.

@ Jaffa... great post - I agree with all of it.  I'd been looking for the way to articulate the difference between what I thought Stadler was saying about bias, and how I felt it, and particularly towards Trump.  You nailed it.  In a way, Trump has been the creator of my bias towards him - because of his consistent patterns of behaviour, and because of the position he is in.
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Offline ariich

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Re: Trump Tweets (sorry Stadler)
« Reply #209 on: July 10, 2017, 10:03:22 AM »
Jaffa for President!