An ethical dilemma: Thoughts are welcome

[Dr. DTVT]

Ok, so some of you know I had a job offer pulled from me last August due that was due to a financial issue at the school that was going to hire me.  I've been on the job market since mid-August.  Things have been moving very slowly due to my lack of industrial experience, and it was too late to find a teaching job for the 2016-17 school year.  I kind of wanted a new challenge anyway.

I've applied for lots of jobs that interest me in geographic regions that I want to live in.  I left an otherwise great job May 2014 because I couldn't stand living in a rural community.  There was one type of company that had great paying jobs that I refused to apply to - tobacco companies.  I view them as an embodiment of evil.  I hate cigarette smoke more than pretty much every other smell.  I don't see any positive impact their product makes.  I could go on and on about what I think of cigarettes, and how much I can not stand to be around people when they are smoking.

It doesn't take much to see where this is going.  They contacted me about a position.  It's one I've seen posted for several months, but I guess the lack of interest & qualified candidates has pushed this company to start seeking candidates, and they contacted me.

On one hand, I REALLY need a job.  Boredom and having almost everything I own is storage is killing me and my bank account/savings.  The other side is I don't know how I feel about going to work for the Empire/Lord Nefarious/fill in your favorite evil organization, or how people would respond to me telling them I work for a tobacco company.  After months of silence, its nice to hear that a company wants me...but of course it has to be for the one type of company I KNOW I don't want to work for.

Be honest: Would you think less of someone if they told you they worked for a tobacco company?  Have you ever faced an ethical dilemma at work that put your personal convictions at odds with getting or keeping a job, and what dud you ultimately choose?  If you choose the job, did you eventually warm to the job, or did it ultimately not work out.

[black_biff_stadler]

As someone in a nearly identical position to yours minus a PhD.  I'll say hold out for something better. You're extremely educated and personable. Something will come up. Also, there's a decent chance you'll never give 100% to a job you can't put your heart into so you might only be throwing away your good years if it ends up falling apart in the end anyway.

Best of luck in finding what best suits you though

[lonestar]

On an alternative view... you can use and abuse Big Tobacco for a paycheck until the coming school year. Tobacco's days are numbered as is, and your involvement or lack of won't change that one bit.

[TAC]

At this point, people know the deal with smoking. You would not be working for a company that is deceiving people. Would it make a difference if it were a brewery that wanted to hire you?

If you were offered a job by The Eye Poking Needle Company, and people were still willing to poke needles in their eyes, then that is their issue, not yours.

[black_biff_stadler]

Yeah, Arj's and TAC's angles have some merit too.

[lonestar]

The Eye Poking Needle Company

[millahh]

Have you been looking into pharma at all?

To the question you asked, if taking a mercenary gig for a bit will out you in a position to do more good in the long term, no judgment.

[ReaperKK]

I definitely wouldn't judge or even think twice if you worked at a tobacco company, my view is that it's a job, granted it may be in an industry that hurts people but I think TAC has a great point.

If it was me, I'd take the job. You don't have to be there forever and you can always keep looking.

[Implode]

I currently work for a smaller tobacco company. I kind of had the same ethical dilemma when I was offered the position, but I thought that nowadays (at least with my generation), the anti-smoking campaign of the past 20 years worked well enough that everyone knows the risks and knows it's bad for you. I personally don't feel bad working for them, but that's just me.

Edit: What TAC said.

But I'll also say that you don't have to go against your personal views. If you have a problem with working for that kind of company, don't do it! I'm sure you can find a better job and one that fits more with who you are.

[gmillerdrake]

This:

On an alternative view... you can use and abuse Big Tobacco for a paycheck until the coming school year. Tobacco's days are numbered as is, and your involvement or lack of won't change that one bit.

This:

At this point, people know the deal with smoking. You would not be working for a company that is deceiving people. Would it make a difference if it were a brewery that wanted to hire you?

If you were offered a job by The Eye Poking Needle Company, and people were still willing to poke needles in their eyes, then that is their issue, not yours.

and this:

I definitely wouldn't judge or even think twice if you worked at a tobacco company, my view is that it's a job, granted it may be in an industry that hurts people but I think TAC has a great point.

If it was me, I'd take the job. You don't have to be there forever and you can always keep looking.

If YOU can take and do the job without beating yourself up over whatever ethical issues you may think are there....then take the job and start making some $$. But if you're gonna take the job and then your entire stent there mind F%ck yourself the entire time and put undo stress on body and mind over it.....hold out for something that won't make you uneasy.

[El Barto]

If anybody asks you could always tell them you're a proctologist.

A person's gotta do what they gotta do and I won't ever hold that against them. I think the important part would for me would be what they wanted me to work on. Seems like there's room for evil and room for good in the tobacco industry. Given the climate nowadays I think the latter is probably out in front at the moment. If my role was beneficial it'd be a no-brainer. If it were neutral I could live with being a tangential component in their profitability for a short time, even if it didn't sit all that well with me. Particularly if I were just looking at it as a way to refill the coffers and gain some practical experience in the non-academic side of life. If they're trying to design more effective ways to kill people, then again, no-brainer.

[7th]

Ok, so some of you know I had a job offer pulled from me last August due that was due to a financial issue at the school that was going to hire me.  I've been on the job market since mid-August.  Things have been moving very slowly due to my lack of industrial experience, and it was too late to find a teaching job for the 2016-17 school year.  I kind of wanted a new challenge anyway.

I've applied for lots of jobs that interest me in geographic regions that I want to live in.  I left an otherwise great job May 2014 because I couldn't stand living in a rural community.  There was one type of company that had great paying jobs that I refused to apply to - tobacco companies.  I view them as an embodiment of evil.  I hate cigarette smoke more than pretty much every other smell.  I don't see any positive impact their product makes.  I could go on and on about what I think of cigarettes, and how much I can not stand to be around people when they are smoking.

It doesn't take much to see where this is going.  They contacted me about a position.  It's one I've seen posted for several months, but I guess the lack of interest & qualified candidates has pushed this company to start seeking candidates, and they contacted me.

On one hand, I REALLY need a job.  Boredom and having almost everything I own is storage is killing me and my bank account/savings.  The other side is I don't know how I feel about going to work for the Empire/Lord Nefarious/fill in your favorite evil organization, or how people would respond to me telling them I work for a tobacco company.  After months of silence, its nice to hear that a company wants me...but of course it has to be for the one type of company I KNOW I don't want to work for.

Be honest: Would you think less of someone if they told you they worked for a tobacco company?  Have you ever faced an ethical dilemma at work that put your personal convictions at odds with getting or keeping a job, and what dud you ultimately choose?  If you choose the job, did you eventually warm to the job, or did it ultimately not work out.

I'd pass on it if you are feeling a moral dilemma about it.  Why do *anything* you are not 100% behind in life?  On the flip side, most any company produces something that can be considered bad for humanity.  You could find the most "green" job on the planet and some cynic will point out the supply chain of death you are participating in.  Be wary of having anything "unpopular" or politically incorrect on your resume because people these days make ridiculous judgments of others based on hyperbolic and ill-informed views and perceptions.  You can always work there while you find something else, BUT that leaves you being the one not being genuine about your intentions.  So yeah, I'd skip it if you can't get behind it 100%.  I say it is better to be poor than to sell out.

[7th]

Have you been looking into pharma at all?

Pharma kills more people than tobacco does, but then again, it also saves more lives. :-)

This is the problem with any industry: all technology and industrial endeavors have negative effects against the natural wellness of the human condition.  So, the bottom line is you have to choose what is best for you.  If a tobacco company is doing something you cannot condone, don't waste their time or yours.

[Cool Chris]

Why do *anything* you are not 100% behind in life?   

How many things in life is one 100% behind? Is everything we encounter going to completely align with our ideals? Most people who have run of the mill jobs aren't there because they are 100% behind it, whether it be bagging groceries, digging ditches, or doing someone's taxes. They are doing it to support their family.

[7th]

Why do *anything* you are not 100% behind in life?   

How many things in life is one 100% behind? Is everything we encounter going to completely align with our ideals? Most people who have run of the mill jobs aren't there because they are 100% behind it, whether it be bagging groceries, digging ditches, or doing someone's taxes. They are doing it to support their family.

If you are 100% behind making personal sacrifices to support your family then you are 100% behind keeping a job you aren't aligned to personally.  But, as someone who has done a lot of that (decades of doing jobs I wasn't all that into) I can tell you my life got much better when I pursued things I was passionate about and my family has always done just fine. 

[MirrorMask]

I agree with those pointing out that people know the dangers of smoking, and they smoke anyway.

If people all of a sudden would stop smoking, the tobacco companies would be out of practice, not the other way around.

Take the job and meanwhile look for something else, it's not that it's either be unemployed or work forever and ever until retirement on this new company without looking for other jobs.

[Stadler]

Ok, so some of you know I had a job offer pulled from me last August due that was due to a financial issue at the school that was going to hire me.  I've been on the job market since mid-August.  Things have been moving very slowly due to my lack of industrial experience, and it was too late to find a teaching job for the 2016-17 school year.  I kind of wanted a new challenge anyway.

I've applied for lots of jobs that interest me in geographic regions that I want to live in.  I left an otherwise great job May 2014 because I couldn't stand living in a rural community.  There was one type of company that had great paying jobs that I refused to apply to - tobacco companies.  I view them as an embodiment of evil.  I hate cigarette smoke more than pretty much every other smell.  I don't see any positive impact their product makes.  I could go on and on about what I think of cigarettes, and how much I can not stand to be around people when they are smoking.

It doesn't take much to see where this is going.  They contacted me about a position.  It's one I've seen posted for several months, but I guess the lack of interest & qualified candidates has pushed this company to start seeking candidates, and they contacted me.

On one hand, I REALLY need a job.  Boredom and having almost everything I own is storage is killing me and my bank account/savings.  The other side is I don't know how I feel about going to work for the Empire/Lord Nefarious/fill in your favorite evil organization, or how people would respond to me telling them I work for a tobacco company.  After months of silence, its nice to hear that a company wants me...but of course it has to be for the one type of company I KNOW I don't want to work for.

Be honest: Would you think less of someone if they told you they worked for a tobacco company?  Have you ever faced an ethical dilemma at work that put your personal convictions at odds with getting or keeping a job, and what dud you ultimately choose?  If you choose the job, did you eventually warm to the job, or did it ultimately not work out.

Not saying this just to be a contrarian, but I raise my eyebrows more that you DON'T take it than if you took it.   I don't get this mindset, and I really don't get the "Lord Nefarius" mindset.   Maybe if they were making something illegal, or if they were using illegal tactics to sell their product (which some tobacco companies DID do).   But based on what you wrote, that company sells a product, PERIOD.  People can buy it or not at their leisure.   Who are you to say their choices are "bad" or "good" in that sense?    This company puts people to work, it pays taxes, it pays property taxes... there are a 100 good things that a company does to help people that have nothing to do with their product or the impact of their product.   Plus, you have an opportunity to start contributing again, in the form of YOUR taxes, in the form of the lunches and stuff that you buy at the stores around your work, and you now can help others earn a living and keep their jobs, etc.

To me, there is no ethical dilemma here at all.     

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Were I faced with this, I would tell myself "My bill collectors don't give a shit about my principles, they give a shit about getting paid."  Go where there's money now.

[DragonAttack]

Not mentioned is the old cliché 'it's easier to find a job when you have a job' bit, as well as not having to explain a larger gap in your work history down the road.  Best of luck in whichever path you choose.

[Chino]

I'd take the job and continue looking for one that better suits you, even if it means leaving this one after just a few months.

[MirrorMask]

Not mentioned is the old cliché 'it's easier to find a job when you have a job' bit, as well as not having to explain a larger gap in your work history down the road.  Best of luck in whichever path you choose.

I wouldn't be so sure that it's easier to find a job when you're already employed. I have a job and I would like to change it, but since I'm working already, there's no way I can attend some courses that could help me specialize in other fields. I work all day so I have only the evening to check the job mailing lists and keep updated my resume. And I have 30 days notice so I'm cut off from jobs that require you to be immediately avalaible. I'm surely happy to have a job but I feel constrained in the search for a new one.

[Stadler]

Not mentioned is the old cliché 'it's easier to find a job when you have a job' bit, as well as not having to explain a larger gap in your work history down the road.  Best of luck in whichever path you choose.

I wouldn't be so sure that it's easier to find a job when you're already employed. I have a job and I would like to change it, but since I'm working already, there's no way I can attend some courses that could help me specialize in other fields. I work all day so I have only the evening to check the job mailing lists and keep updated my resume. And I have 30 days notice so I'm cut off from jobs that require you to be immediately avalaible. I'm surely happy to have a job but I feel constrained in the search for a new one.

I have absolutely seen situations where resume's were screened based on whether the applicant was employed or not.  Meaning:  stack of 100 resumes, first cut is "are they working now".  No?  In the "Discard pile".   I know for me I don't mean "easier" in the sense of logistics, I mean "easier" in the sense that your odds are better.   All job hunting takes effort, sacrifice and compromise. 

[cramx3]

A couple questions.

Does the tobacco company job require you to move?

What exactly are you doing in this position?

For the moral part of it, if your job was to say advertise and since you hate the prodcut, then I would say it's best not to take the job because you'd find it hard to do well since it would go against what you feel.  However, if your job is like accounting or something unrelated to the actual product then a job is a job and we all need to survive so I would take it and I don't think anyone should give you shit for it.

As for the moving part, if you had to move then maybe it's a more difficult decision.  You could always use this job to stay employed while you look for a job you really want, but that's harder to do if you move because then you made a new commitment to your new housing and everything.  But if you don't need to move, stay put, take the job, keep searching while you make money.

[mikeyd23]

Not saying this just to be a contrarian, but I raise my eyebrows more that you DON'T take it than if you took it.   I don't get this mindset, and I really don't get the "Lord Nefarius" mindset.   Maybe if they were making something illegal, or if they were using illegal tactics to sell their product (which some tobacco companies DID do).   But based on what you wrote, that company sells a product, PERIOD.  People can buy it or not at their leisure.   Who are you to say their choices are "bad" or "good" in that sense?    This company puts people to work, it pays taxes, it pays property taxes... there are a 100 good things that a company does to help people that have nothing to do with their product or the impact of their product.   Plus, you have an opportunity to start contributing again, in the form of YOUR taxes, in the form of the lunches and stuff that you buy at the stores around your work, and you now can help others earn a living and keep their jobs, etc.

To me, there is no ethical dilemma here at all.     

I was going to post something short and sweet basically saying this. I totally agree with Stadler.

[King Postwhore]

On an alternative view... you can use and abuse Big Tobacco for a paycheck until the coming school year. Tobacco's days are numbered as is, and your involvement or lack of won't change that one bit.

I'm with RJ.  I detest cigarettes but you need to pay bills. Do this until you find what you love.

[TAC]

I'm with RJ.   

Reynolds? 

[King Postwhore]

You old smoking bleep.

[bosk1]

I'm going to go against the grain and say, if what they do bothers you that much, don't work for them.  I know it's a lot easier to stand in principle when you haven't been out of work for a long time as you have.  And sometimes, some compromise may be necessary.  But if you are completely against what they do, and you don't have to, don't take the job.  I mean, obviously, you know that at just about ANY job, you may be asked at times to do things you don't like or don't agree with.  That's just part of the deal.  And there are employers that may have some business practices you agree with and some you don't.  Again, it is what it is.  But to me, both of those situations are different than the situation where the company's primary purpose and function is something you completely disagree with.  It would be like if I was offered a position as an in-house lawyer for a porn studio.  I could go my entire career never seeing or participating in any real way with the movies they do.  I would just be doing legal work.  But it just isn't someplace I could bring myself to work for. 

[Stadler]

Just asking, is there an opening of which you're aware?  Not for me, it's for a friend.   

[hefdaddy42]

No judgement here.

But it doesn't matter what I think.  It matters what you think.

[Dr. DTVT]

Thanks for all the feedback from all fronts.  I put in an I am waiting to hear back.  I'm surprised to see so much support for the job, which was nice because that alleviates some of my worries people would give me the stink-eye, but I was also happy to see that a few people could see where I was coming from.

To answer a few questions:

* Yes, I would be interested in and have applied to pharma jobs.  I haven't heard anything back, and I think that is largely because I have no industrial experience and my background in o-chem is only tangentially related to drug chemistry.  It's actually very close to the work Sir Fraser Stoddart and Jean-Pieere Sauvage did that got them shares of the Nobel Prize in 2016.   My other feather is that I have taught biochemistry at the college level, but I'm no biochemist.

* I would have to move, but that's ok, as I would likely have to move for any job.  I've been staying with relatives, as everything I own except for a weeks worth of clothes, my PS4 and games, and my dog and his stuff are in a storage POD.  Winston-Salem is near places I would like to move, so that's not a bad landing spot.

* Yes, it is that "RJ", TAC

In other news, I have a second phone interview with a different company tomorrow.  The funny thing is I probably met and competed against the woman interviewing me in quiz bowl when we were in HS.  I remember her because she had a very peculiar last name.  I also remember we (and that really mean "I single handedly") absolutely blew them out of the water     I did that to most teams.