Author Topic: Politics and Religion  (Read 798 times)

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Online Chino

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Politics and Religion
« on: January 03, 2017, 11:56:10 AM »
Hello Moderators, Admins, and keepers off all things DTF.

I understand topics can get hot in P/R, but all things considered, that subforum, in my opinion, was one of the most civil places on the internet in regards to political discussion. I feel like this was one of the only places where differences of opinion were actually discussed without them just boiling down to people being called "libtards". I actually looked forward to the disagreements and differences in opinion. Hearing my points refuted intelligently by guys like Bill and Josh has made me a better human being, I think. That subforum taught me to look at things from all angles and through different lenses, and I've carried many of the lessons learned through life. I miss it greatly. I get that there were many times that the mods had to intervene, and that sucks, but is there no wiggle room here? I feel like there must me some middle ground somewhere.

I'm not looking to open a can of worms or anything like that.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2017, 06:35:18 AM »
It appeared that people were given many chances to try to find middle ground and chose to continue acting in a manner that ran contrary to the rules that they willfully agreed to follow.  Not everybody, but it was happening far more often lately than it should have.  It would be nice if some middle ground could be found, but when you continually demonstrate that you can't act civilly or play nice with others, then sometimes everybody has to suffer for it in order to make a point.  Hopefully a solution can be found.

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2017, 10:15:26 AM »
Hello Moderators, Admins, and keepers off all things DTF.

I understand topics can get hot in P/R, but all things considered, that subforum, in my opinion, was one of the most civil places on the internet in regards to political discussion. I feel like this was one of the only places where differences of opinion were actually discussed without them just boiling down to people being called "libtards". I actually looked forward to the disagreements and differences in opinion. Hearing my points refuted intelligently by guys like Bill and Josh has made me a better human being, I think. That subforum taught me to look at things from all angles and through different lenses, and I've carried many of the lessons learned through life. I miss it greatly. I get that there were many times that the mods had to intervene, and that sucks, but is there no wiggle room here? I feel like there must me some middle ground somewhere.

I'm not looking to open a can of worms or anything like that.

Honestly, most threads were pretty much at the point of just calling each other libtards or the opposite equivalent.

I think if posters were held to a higher standard and simply banned or given vacations when they violate rules, instead of being warned over and over, it would have been a bit better. But reading through some of the threads at the end there was really painful.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 10:28:14 AM »
I think if posters were held to a higher standard and simply banned or given vacations when they violate rules, instead of being warned over and over, it would have been a bit better. But reading through some of the threads at the end there was really painful.

Agreed.  Just ban people who can't act civilized as it seems to mostly be the same people.  One warning followed by a temp ban followed by a perm ban.  Or maybe just a one strike and you are out approach would be fine. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2017, 10:32:03 AM »
It appeared that people were given many chances to try to find middle ground and chose to continue acting in a manner that ran contrary to the rules that they willfully agreed to follow.  Not everybody, but it was happening far more often lately than it should have.  It would be nice if some middle ground could be found, but when you continually demonstrate that you can't act civilly or play nice with others, then sometimes everybody has to suffer for it in order to make a point.  Hopefully a solution can be found.

This. 

I think if posters were held to a higher standard and simply banned or given vacations when they violate rules, instead of being warned over and over, it would have been a bit better. But reading through some of the threads at the end there was really painful.

Yeah, and the problem is that, even though you are right, as a practical matter, that is really hard to do.  As nice as it would be if everyone followed the rules perfectly, I have to acknowledge that it is almost impossible for that to happen all the time.  We have to give some recognition of the fact that the topics in that subforum are more important and have much more of an emotional impact, which creates more tension in discussions.  It's a difficult balance.  And I'm not sure what the solution is.  While I am very sympathetic to what Chino says, and I want there to be an active P/R section, I'm also really tired of seeing the rules (and mutual respect) erode away whenever it is open.
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Online Chino

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2017, 11:11:03 AM »
Maybe I'm stepping over a line here, but I feel as though there are 3 or 4 posters in that sub that if removed would result in much more civilized discussion.

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2017, 11:54:49 AM »
I'll be honest... I enjoyed lurking and reading the train wrecks....

Offline ?

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2017, 12:13:38 PM »
I'll be honest... I enjoyed lurking and reading the train wrecks....

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 12:42:39 PM »
I'll be honest... I enjoyed lurking and reading the train wrecks....

To some extent, so did I, and so do many others I'm sure. However, I and several others also used to enjoy posting there.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 02:34:17 PM »
Maybe I'm stepping over a line here, but I feel as though there are 3 or 4 posters in that sub that if removed would result in much more civilized discussion.

I agree, except I also believe it is true that it is these types of posters who create active discussion...not sure what the answer is.

I also concede that I tend to be overly-merciful but am willing to try and be more tyrannical :)

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 03:34:50 PM »
Maybe I'm stepping over a line here, but I feel as though there are 3 or 4 posters in that sub that if removed would result in much more civilized discussion.

I agree, except I also believe it is true that it is these types of posters who create active discussion...not sure what the answer is.

True, but now we have no discussion.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 03:37:54 PM »
Maybe I'm stepping over a line here, but I feel as though there are 3 or 4 posters in that sub that if removed would result in much more civilized discussion.

I agree, except I also believe it is true that it is these types of posters who create active discussion...not sure what the answer is.

True, but now we have no discussion.

Isn't this a discussion?

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 03:41:51 PM »
Maybe I'm stepping over a line here, but I feel as though there are 3 or 4 posters in that sub that if removed would result in much more civilized discussion.

I agree, except I also believe it is true that it is these types of posters who create active discussion...not sure what the answer is.

True, but now we have no discussion.

Isn't this a discussion?


Oh I meant in PR.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2017, 04:56:01 PM »
I feel like Cramx3 is being divisive...
can I ban him?
 :)

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2017, 05:00:20 PM »
I feel like Cramx3 is being divisive...
can I ban him?
 :)

I suggest just telling him to cram it, taking a bow and skipping off into a sunset. That's what I'd do.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2017, 05:07:33 PM »
If I'm going to the sunset then I am leisurely walking, I'm not a skipper or a runner.

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2017, 05:10:16 PM »
If I'm going to the sunset then I am leisurely walking, I'm not a skipper or a runner.

Oh no, Yesh would skip off into the sunset.

You're free to follow him with a leisurely walk though.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2017, 05:11:57 PM »
I'd follow yesha to the sunset  :tup

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2017, 05:50:36 PM »
You're just trying to butter me up from being banned :)

Online millahh

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2017, 05:57:05 PM »
Maybe I'm stepping over a line here, but I feel as though there are 3 or 4 posters in that sub that if removed would result in much more civilized discussion.

I agree, except I also believe it is true that it is these types of posters who create active discussion...not sure what the answer is.

I also concede that I tend to be overly-merciful but am willing to try and be more tyrannical :)

I learned to be tyrannical, you can too!
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2017, 06:39:34 PM »
All my future bans will be in the name of Millahh :)

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2017, 08:18:32 PM »
Well since you brought it up, I'm for it being closed honestly.
I've been posting less and less there when I really started to feel people getting away with insults, I had to assume that was due to their opinions aligning with the staff. And I'm okay with that, simple solution is to not go to that section of the forum. Except when I see these people around other parts of the forums and find myself trying to separate their cheerful friendly personalities from the ugly hateful ones I witnessed in P&R, I couldn't do that so I started avoiding more and more normal other-sections threads just cause these people are frequent posters in it. I know that's all on me to get over but I can't get the taste of insults out of my mouth.
I've been on DTF for a long time, last year was the first time I seriously thought of quitting for my dignity's sake.
So long story short, I think if it remains locked long enough I think I could reconcile and stop feeling shitty whenever I see these people posting elsewhere on the forums. I'd vote permanently but I know that's not gonna happen.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2017, 08:21:18 PM »
Well since you brought it up, I'm for it being closed honestly.
I've been posting less and less there when I really started to feel people getting away with insults, I had to assume that was due to their opinions aligning with the staff. And I'm okay with that, simple solution is to not go to that section of the forum. Except when I see these people around other parts of the forums and find myself trying to separate their cheerful friendly personalities from the ugly hateful ones I witnessed in P&R, I couldn't do that so I started avoiding more and more normal other-sections threads just cause these people are frequent posters in it. I know that's all on me to get over but I can't get the taste of insults out of my mouth.
I've been on DTF for a long time, last year was the first time I seriously thought of quitting for my dignity's sake.
So long story short, I think if it remains locked long enough I think I could reconcile and stop feeling shitty whenever I see these people posting elsewhere on the forums. I'd vote permanently but I know that's not gonna happen.

But then you and I can't discuss the middle east. Which didn't happen often enough.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2017, 09:41:14 PM »
We know where we agree and where we disagree, I remember we had a nice in-depth discussion about it a couple of years ago before you left for your last DTF hiatus. Nothing ever really changes there and we could always PM it.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2017, 07:45:19 AM »
Well since you brought it up, I'm for it being closed honestly.
I've been posting less and less there when I really started to feel people getting away with insults, I had to assume that was due to their opinions aligning with the staff. And I'm okay with that, simple solution is to not go to that section of the forum. Except when I see these people around other parts of the forums and find myself trying to separate their cheerful friendly personalities from the ugly hateful ones I witnessed in P&R, I couldn't do that so I started avoiding more and more normal other-sections threads just cause these people are frequent posters in it. I know that's all on me to get over but I can't get the taste of insults out of my mouth.
I've been on DTF for a long time, last year was the first time I seriously thought of quitting for my dignity's sake.
So long story short, I think if it remains locked long enough I think I could reconcile and stop feeling shitty whenever I see these people posting elsewhere on the forums. I'd vote permanently but I know that's not gonna happen.

But here's the thing, like you said, you backed away when you didn't feel it was something you wanted to participate in.  I myself did the same thing in the election thread after the election.  It just seemed like it went off course so I stopped participating, but I kept reading it, just didn't want to get involve and I kept participating in other PR threads.  That's the beauty of the freedom.  Now we don't have that at all. 

You're just trying to butter me up from being banned :)

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2017, 10:52:07 AM »
I suppose I'll just chime in and say I'd rather see the thing obliterated than left readable behind a glass window.
There were discussions I had with people there that went well, and ones that didn't go so well. It seems like some regulars of that side have gone missing or their activity has sharply declined, and that's a shame, because I enjoyed talking to many of those people despite disagreements in PR.

Anyway, my point is, I see why the decision to close it was made, but I don't understand the decision to archive it as a read-only document, putting all of our bad behavior on display for the every new DT fan ever down the line. If the sub deserved the Eddard Stark treatment, at least give it the decency of a nice, clean, thorough stroke :lol

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2017, 10:52:34 AM »
**duplicate post, please delete**

Online Chino

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2017, 10:58:12 AM »
I suppose I'll just chime in and say I'd rather see the thing obliterated than left readable behind a glass window.
There were discussions I had with people there that went well, and ones that didn't go so well. It seems like some regulars of that side have gone missing or their activity has sharply declined, and that's a shame, because I enjoyed talking to many of those people despite disagreements in PR.

Anyway, my point is, I see why the decision to close it was made, but I don't understand the decision to archive it as a read-only document, putting all of our bad behavior on display for the every new DT fan ever down the line. If the sub deserved the Eddard Stark treatment, at least give it the decency of a nice, clean, thorough stroke :lol

Like Stark, we put P/R on the spike for all to see.


Online millahh

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2017, 03:03:15 PM »
All my future bans will be in the name of Millahh :)

Ban frequently and capriciously, make examples of them!
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2017, 04:51:13 PM »

Honestly, most threads were pretty much at the point of just calling each other libtards or the opposite equivalent.

I think if posters were held to a higher standard and simply banned or given vacations when they violate rules, instead of being warned over and over, it would have been a bit better. But reading through some of the threads at the end there was really painful.
I honestly didn't see much of that at all. As for the higher standard, that's fine, but frankly I never actually understood what the standard was. At times it would seem like everything was just dandy the way it was and at others it seemed like we were supposed to be the Harvard debate team. There have been more than a few bans that bewildered me as to their cause and/or purpose, other than perhaps the mystical aphorisms of the magic 8-ball.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 04:56:53 PM by El Barto »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2017, 05:14:53 PM »
Well since you brought it up, I'm for it being closed honestly.
I've been posting less and less there when I really started to feel people getting away with insults, I had to assume that was due to their opinions aligning with the staff. And I'm okay with that, simple solution is to not go to that section of the forum. Except when I see these people around other parts of the forums and find myself trying to separate their cheerful friendly personalities from the ugly hateful ones I witnessed in P&R, I couldn't do that so I started avoiding more and more normal other-sections threads just cause these people are frequent posters in it. I know that's all on me to get over but I can't get the taste of insults out of my mouth.
I've been on DTF for a long time, last year was the first time I seriously thought of quitting for my dignity's sake.
So long story short, I think if it remains locked long enough I think I could reconcile and stop feeling shitty whenever I see these people posting elsewhere on the forums. I'd vote permanently but I know that's not gonna happen.
With all due respect, mate, such is life on planet Earth. You gotta learn to compartmentalize the personality quirks of others. Or don't and disavow two thirds of the population.

As for me, it's had the opposite effect. I'm far more comfortable posting in P/R with the people I know to be civilized and reasonable and who who share my interest and curiosity in the subjects we discuss there. I suspect that's reflected in a hefty drop in my post count here over the last few weeks. While I've met some great folk here over the years, I don't feel compelled to spend much time here if we can't discuss things of common interest.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2017, 09:00:35 AM »
I would definitely rather there be a P/R than NOT be a P/R.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2017, 05:38:42 PM »
With all due respect, mate, such is life on planet Earth. You gotta learn to compartmentalize the personality quirks of others. Or don't and disavow two thirds of the population.

100% agreed Barto, And that's what you gotta do everywhere online. Except DTF, which I found to be my chill lounge of the internet, a place where strong/violent feelings were only expressed in matters of music and entertainment and people still had a degree of mutual respect with those who disagree with them on these matters. I never had to post in the same thread as someone who considers me a filthy parasite or a potential murderer.
But as my previous post indicated, it's all on me to just not go to that section.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2017, 07:14:05 PM »
With all due respect, mate, such is life on planet Earth. You gotta learn to compartmentalize the personality quirks of others. Or don't and disavow two thirds of the population.

100% agreed Barto, And that's what you gotta do everywhere online. Except DTF, which I found to be my chill lounge of the internet, a place where strong/violent feelings were only expressed in matters of music and entertainment and people still had a degree of mutual respect with those who disagree with them on these matters. I never had to post in the same thread as someone who considers me a filthy parasite or a potential murderer.
But as my previous post indicated, it's all on me to just not go to that section.

I remember a few years ago there was a thread about Jon Stewart's rally in Washington. You were active in the thread and I remember making a response to something that you posted that came off bad because I worded it very poorly. I think that I tried to apologize after I realized that I failed in my delivery, but it's been a long time ago and I can't remember for certain. With that in mind, if I'm one of the people that gave you a negative vibe in P/R then I want to apologize. Rest assured that I intended no ill will.
Thankee-sai

Offline Adami

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Re: Politics and Religion
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2017, 07:21:35 PM »
I feel like one major problem with PR is the desertion of a lot of the more moderate posters. It seems we used to have a whole lot of level headed people on both sides of the spectrum who could discuss, debate and openly learn from each other and it was great. Then more extreme posters from both sides came in, who were less interested in discussion and learning, and more interested in disproving the other side and going off on, often, angry and hateful rants. It became more about being on side A and vehemently against side B (or vice versa) than it was sharing ideas. When it became more and more extreme, the moderate posters (not all, but a good amount) started realizing that they were talking to brick walls and just got frustrated and left. Then it became mostly extremists going back and forth with nothing coming from it. It isn't and wasn't 100% that, but I think that's how it mostly became, with a small amount of good discussion sprinkled in, but not nearly enough.



TLDR: Not enough Hef.
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