What is your favorite DT lineup?

[gzarruk]

Well, the title pretty much sums it up: From all versions of DT, which lineup is your favorite and why?

I know some of these lineups don't have a chance, but I'll still list them of, just in case 

1) JP, JM, MP, KM, CC

2) JP, JM, MP, KM, CD

3) JP, JM, MP, KM, JLB

4) JP, JM, MP, JLB, DS

5) JP, JM, MP, JLB, JR

6) JP, JM, JLB, JR, MM

Personally, I think their ultimate lineup is either 5 or 6. Out of these two, it depends on which period we're talking about (SFAM and SDOIT DT > BC&SL DT), but I think their current version is the best for the band at this moment.

[bl5150]

Quite clearly 3 as I&W is close enough to my favourite album ever.   After that then probably the current lineup.


Might be worth adding a poll to help you see the results easily.

[BlobVanDam]

The SFAM > BCASL lineup will always be my favourite. SFAM + SDOIT alone top any other era by far for me, and it was the most fun lineup where anything could happen.

[Stewie]

Cool thread! It's hard to say...there is so much great material from all the different lineups/eras. Lineup #3 will always be special for me, as that was the lineup when I first saw them live. Lineup #4 was alright, but being so short lived, kinda faded from history pretty quickly for me. Derek is a hell of a player, but I never really felt like he fit in 100%. And, seeing as how ACOS was already written prior to him joining the band, I don't attribute the highlights from that era to him necessarily (as much as I love FII as well). Lineup #5 will always be special as well; lots of great material and releases from that era, even though it got stale towards the end. Honestly, I think the current lineup has lots of potential. I'm still hoping for Mangini to do for DT what JR did for the band. He is definitely not being used to the fullest potential, at least, to me it seems.

EDIT: in short, I don't know that I can pick just one.

[Skeever]

1. Images/Awake Lineup
2. Scenes > Black Clouds Lineup
3. FII Lineup
4. Current Lineup
5. Non-LaBrie lineups

[gzarruk]

Might be worth adding a poll to help you see the results easily.

Thank you! Didn't think about that. Just added it

The SFAM > BCASL lineup will always be my favourite. SFAM + SDOIT alone top any other era by far for me, and it was the most fun lineup where anything could happen.

What I meant with SFAM SDOIT DT > BC&SL DT is that, even it's  the same lineup, DT from 1999-2002 was much better than 2010 DT.  But, I agree, those two albums are fixed as 1 and 2 on my DT ranking. SFAM is my favorite, but I think SDOIT is their best.

However, I think I like the current lineup more, but that probably has to do with all the issues with MP and that I don't have too much interest on what he's been doing lately.

Cool thread! It's hard to say...there is so much great material from all the different lineups/eras. Lineup #3 will always be special for me, as that was the lineup when I first saw them live. Lineup #4 was alright, but being so short lived, kinda faded from history pretty quickly for me. Derek is a hell of a player, but I never really felt like he fit in 100%. And, seeing as how ACOS was already written prior to him joining the band, I don't attribute the highlights from that era to him necessarily (as much as I love FII as well). Lineup #5 will always be special as well; lots of great material and releases from that era, even though it got stale towards the end. Honestly, I think the current lineup has lots of potential. I'm still hoping for Mangini to do for DT what JR did for the band. He is definitely not being used to the fullest potential, at least, to me it seems.

These 3 were be the obvious favorites   
I agree with everything you said. Derek, though, has some AMAZING compositions and recordings that prove he had much more to offer to DT, maybe if he had stayed for 1 or 2 albums more it would've shown, but I think Jordan is a much better fit overall.

While I'm one of the few people who love SC, I just don't know what happened with BC&SL, they definitely needed that lineup change.

About Mangini not being used to the fullest, I don't think they're using JM to the fullest either. They could experiment with much more rhythmic section madness with these guys, STR being the best example.

[Stewie]

I'm still hoping for Mangini to do for DT what JR did for the band. He is definitely not being used to the fullest potential, at least, to me it seems.

About Mangini not being used to the fullest, I don't think they're using JM to the fullest either. They could experiment with much more rhythmic section madness with these guys, STR being the best example.

Myung used to contribute a lot more back in the day; he's just slowly taken a backseat over time, I'm guessing by his own choosing.

[gzarruk]

I'm still hoping for Mangini to do for DT what JR did for the band. He is definitely not being used to the fullest potential, at least, to me it seems.

About Mangini not being used to the fullest, I don't think they're using JM to the fullest either. They could experiment with much more rhythmic section madness with these guys, STR being the best example.

Myung used to contribute a lot more back in the day; he's just slowly taken a backseat over time, I'm guessing by his own choosing.

Well, he only started writing lyrics again after Portnoy left, so, I think, MP was keeping him from not only writing lyrics, but contributing more to the music as well. Anyway, his musical chemistry with MM is amazing, hope they explore more of that on future releases.

[Stewie]

I'm still hoping for Mangini to do for DT what JR did for the band. He is definitely not being used to the fullest potential, at least, to me it seems.

About Mangini not being used to the fullest, I don't think they're using JM to the fullest either. They could experiment with much more rhythmic section madness with these guys, STR being the best example.

Myung used to contribute a lot more back in the day; he's just slowly taken a backseat over time, I'm guessing by his own choosing.

Well, he only started writing lyrics again after Portnoy left, so, I think, MP was keeping him from not only writing lyrics, but contributing more to the music as well. Anyway, his musical chemistry with MM is amazing, hope they explore more of that on future releases.

I agree that his chemistry with Mangini is tight, and there are some good bass/drum moments on the self-titled, but how exactly do you think MP was keeping Myung from participating? Honestly, MP wasn't the dictator some fans seem to think he was. Did he like to oversee every aspect of the band? Sure. Did he specifically corner Myung and say, "John, I really would appreciate it if you would stop trying to contribute to the songwriting process - I don't want you to offer any more lyrics, cool basslines, riffs, or any other musical ideas you might have, okay? Just leave that to me, John and Jordan. Got it? M'kay, thanks bud." Lol. The fact that JM started writing lyrics again after MP's departure may have been due to something as simple as feeling inspired again. Maybe he, like some fans, felt that things had been going on autopilot for a few years. Maybe it just felt like the right time? Who knows. And, just because MP was the "band leader" doesn't mean he told the others what they could and couldn't contribute. I don't know why it's so difficult for some fans to understand this.

[Madman Shepherd]

There is something to appreciate it about every lineup.  Yes, even the Collins era. 

As far as which one I like the most, I would have to go with the current lineup. 

I just really like the vibe they have going and I liked the momentum although I think TA kinda blew it.  Hopefully they can pick back up and kick some more ass.  I've got big hopes for this next album and this next tour. 

[BlobVanDam]

Well, he only started writing lyrics again after Portnoy left, so, I think, MP was keeping him from not only writing lyrics, but contributing more to the music as well. Anyway, his musical chemistry with MM is amazing, hope they explore more of that on future releases.

MP wasn't keeping JM from writing lyrics. In the absence of MP as a major contributor of lyrics, it made sense that JM stepped up at that time. JM has never been a prolific contributor of lyrics, with one song per album at most even since MP's departure, so I have never read much into his lack of lyrics on any particular album. JLB has only contributed lyrics for one short song since MP left. I don't think JLB and JM are the type to force lyrics, only writing them when particularly inspired to.

We know that JP helped JM with the lyrics on BAI (no idea on Surrender to Reason?), so I don't think JM's lyrics are as fully formed as the rest of the band, and maybe not practical in the past when they've had multiple other members able to contribute a finished lyric. With MP gone, it probably works out easier for JP to give a bit of help to JM to polish a lyric than have to write the lyrics himself from scratch.

[MirrorMask]

The SFAM to Black Clouds line-up, it's the one I've seen being born and grow since I became a fan. Of course the Images & Awake (albums) lineup was glorious as well.

[Zydar]

I&W lineup.

[?]

Lineup 3, easily.

[Bertielee]

Lineup 3, easily.

[CharlesPL]

Scenes > Black Clouds Lineup

[Kotowboy]

Scenes > Black Clouds Lineup

Yup. Since I think that Kevin Moore is massively over rated. I even prefer Derek to Kevin.

But the lineup with both Jordan and Portnoy in the band was the best. The albums all sounded great and each one was different.


Also saying " KM line up *obviously* " because he was *obviously* on Awake...

You kinda have to enjoy Awake to go along with that and I never have.

[Bertielee]

Scenes > Black Clouds Lineup

?

[Kotowboy]

Scenes > Black Clouds Lineup

?

Scenes From A Memory. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence. Train of Thought. Octavarium. Systematic Chaos. Black Clouds & Silver Linings.

Jordan Rudess. James LaBrie. John Myung. John Petrucci. Mike Portnoy.

#HopeThisHelps

[Bertielee]

Scenes > Black Clouds Lineup

Yup. Since I think that Kevin Moore is massively over rated. I even prefer Derek to Kevin.

But the lineup with both Jordan and Portnoy in the band was the best. The albums all sounded great and each one was different.

OK, with your explanation, I get it. I'm tired, gonna get some sleep. At first, I got it as if Scenes line-up was superior to BC&SL line-up, which didn't make sense at all.

B.Lee

[Kotowboy]

That obviously means Scenes TO Black Clouds Lineup.

[Bertielee]

That obviously means Scenes TO Black Clouds Lineup.

Yep, but the > sign was ambiguous for me.

B.Lee

[Tony From Long Island]

Gzarruk:  " . . . .but I think their current version is the best for the band at this moment. . . . "

Well, the current version is the ONLY version of the band  "at this moment"   :-)

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, he only started writing lyrics again after Portnoy left, so, I think, MP was keeping him from not only writing lyrics, but contributing more to the music as well.

This speculation is 100% incorrect. MP tried to encourage JM to take part more both in lyric writing as well as songwriting, since he was well aware of how the fans loved all of JM's lyrics. But JM, for whatever reason, chose not to do so.

[MirrorMask]

Wasn't there also the issue of "Come up with lyrics fully formed" and Myung's needed to be rearranged, since they were more in free form? to the point that Petrucci got a co-credit on Breaking All Illusions...

[Madman Shepherd]

Wasn't there also the issue of "Come up with lyrics fully formed" and Myung's needed to be rearranged, since they were more in free form? to the point that Petrucci got a co-credit on Breaking All Illusions...

Exactly.  It was clear that MP pushed JM out of lyric writing by insisting they be written in a specific format. Perhaps JP felt the same way but it is interesting that there has been all this discussion about how much the band was really against the direction on FII and we've kind of deduced most of the band had no issue with it other than Mike.  I kind of feel that was probably the issue with the lyric writing.

When JM wrote lyrics on ADTOE he insisted on giving JP cowriting credit in a sense recognizing that JP has to work a lot with the lyrics to make them fit. 

A while back I remember someone saying, sometimes working more and being inconvenienced by someone's particular style has the best results.  Songs with JM's lyrics certainly prove that point.  He may present the lyrics in poetry format which then has to be edited and changed to fit a song but overall a large portion of the fanbase tends to love those songs the most so why not work with that. 

Reminds me of Steve Hackett in Genesis.  I was reading a biography and the band said he came up with some brilliant parts but they were half formed.  They worked with him to turn it into a full song and that is some of Genesis' best work. 

[gzarruk]

Gzarruk:  " . . . .but I think their current version is the best for the band at this moment. . . . "

Well, the current version is the ONLY version of the band  "at this moment"   :-)

  English is not my first language, so some of the stuff I write sometimes gets muddy and formulated on a weird way. I tried to say that a different version of the band would't work so well at this point. Imagine if MP rejoined right now, it wouldn't work as it did before.

Wasn't there also the issue of "Come up with lyrics fully formed" and Myung's needed to be rearranged, since they were more in free form? to the point that Petrucci got a co-credit on Breaking All Illusions...

Exactly.  It was clear that MP pushed JM out of lyric writing by insisting they be written in a specific format. Perhaps JP felt the same way but it is interesting that there has been all this discussion about how much the band was really against the direction on FII and we've kind of deduced most of the band had no issue with it other than Mike. I kind of feel that was probably the issue with the lyric writing.

Indeed. I'm not saying Mike came and said "I don't want you to come up with lyrics anymore", of course that never happened, but that rule of the fully formed lyrics may have kept him from trying, as he could have felt it as something going directly to him.

I'll quote something from a 2011 interview with Jordan (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/rudess-new-cd-was-written-without-portnoy-being-dream-theater-police-telling-us-yes-or-no/)

Rock Your Life: I understand that in the past Mike Portnoy and John Petrucci were handling the production of your albums. This time although you had the chance to hire a producer you did not. Why?

Rudess: Well, John came to us and said, "Guys, I really want to produce this album. I think I can do a good job." The rest of us thought, "Why not, let him do it," and he did such a great job. John Petrucci has a very solid and strong personality. He is very clear and knows exactly what he wants plus he is very capable. So, what he ended up doing was to bring out the best of everybody. I felt, for example, that my energy was being used in the group. He did that with the others. He worked beautifully with [new drummer] Mike Mangini and John Myung [bass] who had a new spirit about this. With Mike Portnoy leaving, John became, like, free. The fact that Mike Portnoy left did not make us suffer. John Petrucci and I, we are the core composers of DREAM THEATER, and it has been that way since I joined the group. So, even though Mike was extremely talented, there were certain limitations of what he could do in terms of the production. So when we moved on, we looked at each other and said, "We can produce this album. We do not need somebody else telling us what is good or not," and we enjoyed that challenge. The biggest difference in writing music to this album was that we decided to write this music choosing what is best for us without Mike Portnoy being the DREAM THEATER police telling us "yes" or "no." I think that it took us a little more time to craft our music before putting our stamp of approval on it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking MP, I'm just trying to say he wanted to control things so much it probably caused JM to lay back a little bit. Take their last album with MP, BC&SL, for example. That album felt like it had almost no contribution from JM and pretty much nothing from James, that's why James felt the need to put out solo albums again.

Even James said it here (jut before ADTOE was released)(https://www.prog-sphere.com/interviews/resurfacing-an-interview-with-james-labrie/)

- You’ve been around during the writing of the music this time.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Have you been involved in the writing?

- I was making suggestions here and there and definitely very much involved in all the melody structuring for the vocals.

- Was that something new for you?

- I’ve always been involved to a certain extent with the melodies of the song, but not to this extent. So that was new. And also, suggesting riffs and stuff like that. But, I mean, minimal, because… Here is the truth of the matter: The main composers of this band have always been John and…

- Petrucci…

- Yes, let’s make sure of it – John Petrucci and Jordan have been the main contributors with riffs and stuff. John Myung really stepped up to the plate this album, contributing a lot as well.

- This was something that kinda leaked out around Black Clouds: Jordan kinda admitted that John Myung hasn’t really been around when they were writing albums.

- Well, he was around, but he wasn’t…. He was around, he was there, but he wasn’t involved. So…

-How long has this been going on?

- Put it this way: When Dream And Day Unite, he was very much involved. Images, very much involved. Awake, involved. From there it started to kinda like… (indicates steps) a little less, a little less, a little less. To the point where in Black Clouds and Silver Linings, it wasn’t… probably anything. Same with me! I was kinda like sitting back, going (gives an annoyed look) „What’s going on here?“ And that was a lot of the reasons why I needed to do my solo albums. Because I needed to get my ideas out and let people see that I write music. I write riffs. I write like this. I write lyrics like this. And so on. And it did me well and it did just the whole perception, so that people don’t think I was like (in a spoiled singer voice) „When am I singing?“ – I didn’t want that coming across, so it was very important for me to do that.

Take both interviews and you get a better picture: Nobody was telling them "stop contributing to the writing process", but they definitely felt, at least James and Myung, like something was keeping them from collaborating more.

[chaotic_ripper]

Current lineup.

[hefdaddy42]

That obviously means Scenes TO Black Clouds Lineup.

No, not obviously, because > doesn't mean "to" or "through".

Hence, confusion.

[Bertielee]

That obviously means Scenes TO Black Clouds Lineup.

No, not obviously, because > doesn't mean "to" or "through".

Hence, confusion.

Thanks, I'm not the only one finding it ambiguous.

B.Lee

[Tony From Long Island]

Gzarruk:   "  . . . .Imagine if MP rejoined right now, it wouldn't work as it did before. . . . . "


That would work just fine for me, my friend!     Nothing but respect for Mike Mangini, though.

[Tony From Long Island]

Jordan Rudess " . . . .The biggest difference in writing music to this album was that we decided to write this music choosing what is best for us <b>without Mike Portnoy being the DREAM THEATER police telling us "yes" or "no."</b> I think that it took us a little more time to craft our music before putting our stamp of approval on it. . . . ."

I dunno.   Maybe they need that counterweight, as long as it's done in a constructive way.

[MirrorMask]

I dunno.   Maybe they need that counterweight, as long as it's done in a constructive way.

That's what a producer does! 

[gzarruk]

I dunno.   Maybe they need that counterweight, as long as it's done in a constructive way.

That's what a producer does! 

Indeed! That's why I tink they need someone else co-producing the albums with JP. Petrucci and Jordan write most of the music, that's fine, but they should get an external opinion to craft a better album. Don't know it'll ever happen again, though 

[Tony From Long Island]

MirrorMask:   " . . . . That's what a producer does!  . . . . "

That's also what good bandmates do.  I'm sure you've been in a band.  Most people on this board likely have.