I miss the LTE vibe in DT

[nikatapi]

Well of course LTE was a side project, and now only JR and JP remain in DT, but i still miss that vibe that influenced Dream Theater especially on SDOIT, this endless experimentation, the groovy riffs, the funky keys, the relentless time signature changes, and the sound production.

I really wish JP and JR try to revisit this mindset and involve MM and JM more in the writing process, just jam and see what happens. I would love a "less serious" DT album.

[Art]

Yep, me too.

[Mladen]

I really wish JP and JR try to revisit this mindset and involve MM and JM more in the writing process, just jam and see what happens. I would love a "less serious" DT album.

I am positive this is what happened with DT12. And ultimately it didn't turn out to be a fan favorite.

[RoeDent]

It's funny the OP mentions SDOIT, because it was actually through Stream of Consciousness that I got into LTE. The only difference between LTE and SoC is the bassist, so it gives a good example of what LTE do, long instrumentals.

[emtee]

Just pulled SDoiT off the shelf a few days ago so great thread timing for me.

Easily their most experimental and varied album. Also contains what I think is their most emotional song. Add to that it has great
sonic quality and you have a masterpiece. This was the last album they did where I truly loved the entire album front to back.
I probably spun this thing 400 times from the day of release through the following 20 months.

[Lax]

I'm in the OP vibe, but I found lots of LTE in albums (breaking all illusions, some intros in the astonishing)

[Mebert78]

I really wish JP and JR try to revisit this mindset and involve MM and JM more in the writing process, just jam and see what happens. I would love a "less serious" DT album.

I am positive this is what happened with DT12. And ultimately it didn't turn out to be a fan favorite.

Personally, the self-titled disc is my third favorite DT album behind Awake and I&W.  I never realized it wasn't a fan favorite!   

[nikatapi]

I'm in the OP vibe, but I found lots of LTE in albums (breaking all illusions, some intros in the astonishing)

Yeah BAI is a song that has that freshness and vibe, but what i also wanted to note is the sound production, the vibrant and powerful drums, JP's tone without all the effects, and the less "epicness" that feels a little forced in the recent DT albums.

[MirrorMask]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to me LTE is a double edged sword. It was the ultimate proof that the guys could write amazing music in a matter of days, so they often took that approach with DT. Jam jam jam, write write write, record it and that's the album. There have been recent records where I feel that the solo sections, often criticized as being disjointed, were written actually in LTE mode, aka "This is where the solo section is due, let's jam and see what happens" - and the 5 minutes that happen are the ones that end on the record.

[gzarruk]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to me LTE is a double edged sword. It was the ultimate proof that the guys could write amazing music in a matter of days, so they often took that approach with DT. Jam jam jam, write write write, record it and that's the album. There have been recent records where I feel that the solo sections, often criticized as being disjointed, were written actually in LTE mode, aka "This is where the solo section is due, let's jam and see what happens" - and the 5 minutes that happen are the ones that end on the record.

This.

[pcs90]

I love LTE. To be honest I prefer many of the LTE tracks to DT's released instrumental pieces. I say released because they had many unreleased live ones in the 90s that would fit right at home with the LTE concept. I also like how they added jams to existing songs, for example Lines in the Sand, To Live Forever, Learning to Live, Metropolis, Lifting Shadows, and probably others I'm forgetting.
I love the last 3 albums. What they need is a more organic sound, and to add some live improv sections in the shows. The problem is now the shows are so much more scripted that there's not too much room for that unless they are separate from the main song, for example the intro of Trial of Tears that they started playing near the end of the DT12 tour. More of that stuff would be great! They can obviously still do it; MM's audition video is proof. The second half of that jam is magic.

[Prog Snob]

I really wish JP and JR try to revisit this mindset and involve MM and JM more in the writing process, just jam and see what happens. I would love a "less serious" DT album.

I am positive this is what happened with DT12. And ultimately it didn't turn out to be a fan favorite.

Personally, the self-titled disc is my third favorite DT album behind Awake and I&W.  I never realized it wasn't a fan favorite!

You should do more reading around the DT-side of the forum.   I rather enjoyed but it's constantly picked at for whatever reason.

Well of course LTE was a side project, and now only JR and JP remain in DT, but i still miss that vibe that influenced Dream Theater especially on SDOIT, this endless experimentation, the groovy riffs, the funky keys, the relentless time signature changes, and the sound production.

I really wish JP and JR try to revisit this mindset and involve MM and JM more in the writing process, just jam and see what happens. I would love a "less serious" DT album.

I agree with all of this. LTE was some of their best work as musicians. Maybe with more JR inspiration on the next release we'll get that again.

[hefdaddy42]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to me LTE is a double edged sword. It was the ultimate proof that the guys could write amazing music in a matter of days, so they often took that approach with DT. Jam jam jam, write write write, record it and that's the album. There have been recent records where I feel that the solo sections, often criticized as being disjointed, were written actually in LTE mode, aka "This is where the solo section is due, let's jam and see what happens" - and the 5 minutes that happen are the ones that end on the record.

I don't think that has been the case at all on RECENT records.  But I definitely think that was the case for several albums there, and the bloat was worst of all (IMO) on BC&SL.

[pretorios]

I adore LTE, but I just don't hear that style in DT's music. First of all, they had Tony Levin, who can do more on that Chapman Stick than a normal bassist, and Tony's phenomenal, too. Next, Portnoy used a very scaled down kit. And then there's the style, which was completely different--more of a jazz influence. I think LTE had far more in common with Focus, ELP, and King Crimson than it did with DT.

Too bad Bill Bruford is retired. Having him in LTE would be phenomenal.

[Lethean]

I think this thread is a great example of why I think they should just do what they feel is best. I remember when 6 Degrees came out and people were lamenting that with JR in the band, it was just LTE with vocals and they lost the ability to write hooks etc etc. 6 Degrees was panned by many. Now we still have people with those opinions, but also those who now think 6 Degrees was the good old days and they should go back to it. And just about every album has a group of people who say that's there's no passion, DT is just phoning it in, etc. They're convinced. But of course there's no consensus - that opinion comes up on every album and yet there's always  other fans who do hear/feel the emotion and passion.

So as far as I'm concerned, I think they should approach each album the way they want to and I'm going to hope it continues to reach me.

[KevShmev]

Tony Levin definitely makes the project more awesome that it would be if DT simply did instrumental stuff sans JLB.  No offense to John Myung, who is a helluva bass player, but he doesn't have the creativity and uniqueness when it comes to writing bass lines that Levin does.  Pretty much every LTE song (except the JP/JR solo pieces) has a jaw-dropping bass line, and many of them have more than one.  I could listen to Osmosis all day just for that bass line.

[BlobVanDam]

I've missed the LTE vibe in DT for a while now, not because I don't enjoy the more recent stuff, but it's a reminder of how much diversity they have in the band that is under-utilized.
It's not about the fast playing so much as the unique and fresh arrangements, and the variety of different ideas and styles. That's what makes SFAM such an incredible album to me, there's so much inspiration there, and no limitation on what they could do. It's not that more recent material is worse, but it does feel overall more constrained to me.
Every time I hear JR play outside of DT I think "I'd love to hear him try more of that in DT". There is still so much untapped potential for experimentation there.
I've actually listened to LTE a lot more than DT in recent times, because it's still as fresh as ever to my ears.

[nikatapi]

I've missed the LTE vibe in DT for a while now, not because I don't enjoy the more recent stuff, but it's a reminder of how much diversity they have in the band that is under-utilized.
It's not about the fast playing so much as the unique and fresh arrangements, and the variety of different ideas and styles. That's what makes SFAM such an incredible album to me, there's so much inspiration there, and no limitation on what they could do. It's not that more recent material is worse, but it does feel overall more constrained to me.
Every time I hear JR play outside of DT I think "I'd love to hear him try more of that in DT". There is still so much untapped potential for experimentation there.
I've actually listened to LTE a lot more than DT in recent times, because it's still as fresh as ever to my ears.

Yeah this is my mindset as well. This freshness is missing i believe, i only felt it in parts of ADTOE, but overall it feels more fabricated and less exciting, and i think JP's playing has become less adventurous and exciting, mostly in the riffing-rhythm department.

[Bertielee]

I've missed the LTE vibe in DT for a while now, not because I don't enjoy the more recent stuff, but it's a reminder of how much diversity they have in the band that is under-utilized.
It's not about the fast playing so much as the unique and fresh arrangements, and the variety of different ideas and styles. That's what makes SFAM such an incredible album to me, there's so much inspiration there, and no limitation on what they could do. It's not that more recent material is worse, but it does feel overall more constrained to me.
Every time I hear JR play outside of DT I think "I'd love to hear him try more of that in DT". There is still so much untapped potential for experimentation there.
I've actually listened to LTE a lot more than DT in recent times, because it's still as fresh as ever to my ears.

Yeah this is my mindset as well. This freshness is missing i believe, i only felt it in parts of ADTOE, but overall it feels more fabricated and less exciting, and i think JP's playing has become less adventurous and exciting, mostly in the riffing-rhythm department.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but instrumentally-wise, I think that the LTE days represented a kind of "let's push ourselves to the limits of our game" that's disappeared as of late. Granted, TA was a risk but more in the genre department. They seem to be content with what they do now and so, for me at least, have become less prone to push the boundaries. For once, I would like to see ALL the members involved in creating the new DT music. And please, have an outside producer, if not to trim things a little.

B.Lee

[Viking of the Sagas]

Tony Levin definitely makes the project more awesome that it would be if DT simply did instrumental stuff sans JLB.  No offense to John Myung, who is a helluva bass player, but he doesn't have the creativity and uniqueness when it comes to writing bass lines that Levin does.  Pretty much every LTE song (except the JP/JR solo pieces) has a jaw-dropping bass line, and many of them have more than one.  I could listen to Osmosis all day just for that bass line.

I mean, Osmosis is essentially a Dream Theater feat. Tony Levin version of Disposition (by Tool)

They even use the same soundboards!

Personally I miss songs like Biaxident more. Tony Levin is a badass on that one too, incidentally! It just also has greatness from JR.

[pcs90]

Personally I miss songs like Biaxident more. Tony Levin is a badass on that one too, incidentally! It just also has greatness from JR.

I love Biaxident...very well-structured. I also miss Jordan playing solos like the one on Kindred Spirits...that's very melodic but still technical in places because he adds runs in. Lately a lot of his solos are just runs.

[gzarruk]

Personally I miss songs like Biaxident more. Tony Levin is a badass on that one too, incidentally! It just also has greatness from JR.

I love Biaxident...very well-structured. I also miss Jordan playing solos like the one on Kindred Spirits...that's very melodic but still technical in places because he adds runs in. Lately a lot of his solos are just runs.

While I still love everything JR does, you're right about his solos. Back in LTE, SFAM and SDOIT, his solos were very melodical and had musical themes as well, now, he just plays fast scales and arpeggios 

[pcs90]

Personally I miss songs like Biaxident more. Tony Levin is a badass on that one too, incidentally! It just also has greatness from JR.

I love Biaxident...very well-structured. I also miss Jordan playing solos like the one on Kindred Spirits...that's very melodic but still technical in places because he adds runs in. Lately a lot of his solos are just runs.

While I still love everything JR does, you're right about his solos. Back in LTE, SFAM and SDOIT, his solos were very melodical and had musical themes as well, now, he just plays fast scales and arpeggios 

Yep. And the thing is, he's still fully capable of playing musical solos, and he posts a lot of good piano improv videos, I don't know why a lot of the DT ones have been like that. And especially on the last Levin Minnemann Rudess album, almost every solo is like that! I hope it's just a phase. Some of my favorite JR synth solos are on his Feeding the Wheel and Rhythm of Time solo CD's.

[Viking of the Sagas]

I think he's just not "allowed" to do some of that stuff on DT albums. It's more or less a JP one man project in terms of what gets in, who has the ultimate word.

[jsbru]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to me LTE is a double edged sword. It was the ultimate proof that the guys could write amazing music in a matter of days, so they often took that approach with DT. Jam jam jam, write write write, record it and that's the album. There have been recent records where I feel that the solo sections, often criticized as being disjointed, were written actually in LTE mode, aka "This is where the solo section is due, let's jam and see what happens" - and the 5 minutes that happen are the ones that end on the record.

I don't think that has been the case at all on RECENT records.  But I definitely think that was the case for several albums there, and the bloat was worst of all (IMO) on BC&SL.

Yeah, IMO there's a fine line between DT's jams from their "middle period" and what gets to be too much direction-less wankery.  I think the outside producers on their first three albums constrained some of it a bit.  Every album since SFAM has a little too much of it on at least one or two songs.

It generally sounds really awesome when it's all planned out in advance.  There's really not a point in the 42 minutes of 6DOIT the song that I think drags on.  Or on most of their epics.  That's because the epics are written around a number of different themes, key changes, and mood changes.

Where they really tend to get bogged down is the 10-15 minute song range where they try to turn a 7-10 minute song into a 12-15 minute one, and there's the all-too-standard diminished/chromatic polyrhythmic prog jam section for 5 minutes.  Those sections are cool once in a while, but they've been over-used.  I think their last 3 albums have been a lot more focused though.

It's hard to find much wrong with this band, because it seems like they can do anything they want and do it well, but I think their biggest weakness has always been song production.

[Cable]

I do not miss it. Here is why;

While DT12 and The Astonishing are not my favorite, I will take the structure and direction of those over jamming out in the studio. That led to SC & BC&SL, and I do not want more of those, especially SC. I cannot recall the amount of times I heard people complain about the jamming in the studio, and as a result it led to cut and paste sections. All I remember is the LTE style sucks, and it came out with people yelling at 6DOIT and after. For some reason time has been fantastic to 6DOIT, and SFAM is not included in there either. In addition, trading solo sections can wear thin after awhile. That was never more present in that era with MP.

[Samsara]

Completely disagree with the original post. Although Jordan is arguably the most talented keyboardist DT has ever had, his joining turned DT from a prog metal band to an over-the-top wankfest. I don't say that disrespectfully, but with the circus act tones in his keyboards, and the band embracing a more jam-like and extended soloing (LTE-like) vibe, it really turned me off as a fan.

That has changed a little bit over the last few records, but now my issue is me not really hearing the atmosphere and true passion in the playing. But that's a story for another day.

But no, I do not miss the grandiose, over-the-top LTE vibe in Dream Theater. I hope it stays away permanently. And that's not to say I hate the records that have it. There are some songs I dig. But that infusion of LTE into DT started the transition of me losing interest in the band (although I do realize I am in the minority).

[erwinrafael]

I do not miss it. Here is why;

While DT12 and The Astonishing are not my favorite, I will take the structure and direction of those over jamming out in the studio. That led to SC & BC&SL, and I do not want more of those, especially SC. I cannot recall the amount of times I heard people complain about the jamming in the studio, and as a result it led to cut and paste sections.

The way I see it, ADTOE is DT saying let's get back to focusing on melodies. DT12 is DT saying let's learn to cut back on the bloat. TA is then the product of melody-first, no-bloat songwriting.

[Samsara]

The way I see it, ADTOE is DT saying let's get back to focusing on melodies. DT12 is DT saying let's learn to cut back on the bloat. TA is then the product of melody-first, no-bloat songwriting.

That's a really good way of putting it. Although I disagree a bit on TA...it's a unique animal because it is a broadway-style concept record. I think the real evidence of where they are as a band will be whatever the next album is.

[bosk1]

I think you guys are both right, actually.  I mean, I never want to underestimate JP's ability to study a particular style and then replicate it in DT's music--he has built a career on that from day 1.  But that said, I'm not sure the songs on The Astonishing turn out the way they do without being influenced by the experience that came from writing and extensively playing the prior two albums.  I would guess there are a lot of things on TA that definitely are a "product of" those prior two albums. 

[rumborak]

While I still love everything JR does, you're right about his solos. Back in LTE, SFAM and SDOIT, his solos were very melodical and had musical themes as well, now, he just plays fast scales and arpeggios 

I remember listening to LMR the first time, thinking "why isn't there more of that JR in DT?". I think he has fantastic solos in him, but he can't play them over the music DT writes.

[gzarruk]

While I still love everything JR does, you're right about his solos. Back in LTE, SFAM and SDOIT, his solos were very melodical and had musical themes as well, now, he just plays fast scales and arpeggios 

I remember listening to LMR the first time, thinking "why isn't there more of that JR in DT?". I think he has fantastic solos in him, but he can't play them over the music DT writes.

Agree. Even though Jordan writes most of the music with Petrucci, I feel like he's not allowed to play as free as he would like to with DT. One of the reasons I love ADTOE so much is because it has lots of cool keyboard parts. Same with SFAM, SDOIT and SC. Hope they have more LMR-ish Jordan on the next DT album.

[Architeuthis]

Well the keyboard and piano parts on TA are very well done and just as diverse and melodic as anything DT has ever recorded.

[hefdaddy42]

I would imagine that any constraints on JR in DT are self-imposed.  Since he and JP are the main (practically exclusive) music composers in the band, the DT sound is whatever they say it is.

JR feels that DT is a certain brand and kind of music, and that is the kind of music he does within the band.  There are other things he also likes to play that he doesn't play in DT.

[jsbru]

The way I see it, ADTOE is DT saying let's get back to focusing on melodies. DT12 is DT saying let's learn to cut back on the bloat. TA is then the product of melody-first, no-bloat songwriting.

That's a really good way to sum it up.

I think their next album is going to be fantastic.  I'd love to see the return of the melody paired with a more modest prog-rock song structure.  Would not mind at all if DT14 ends up being their Fragile.  It's something they've never really tried.