Author Topic: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...  (Read 5818 times)

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2016, 02:27:50 PM »
So, in short....what kind of conversation are you hoping to have? Honestly.

The type of conversation where instead of pointlessly picking apart the examples as if PCism is a myth and does not exist, people just own it and explain how it affect their lives.  Why for example is the debate over Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays even relevant?  Why is the skin color of inventors or quarterbacks returned in a search result even relevant?  Why are college professors fired for having conservative views?  Why do companies proclaim "values" that ultimately terminate good employees?

So the conversation you want to have is one where we all accept your worldview and conclusions and make sure to never question any of it?

Just making sure.

Where did I ask anyone to accept my world view or conclusions?  I asked for everyone else's views and conclusions. 
   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2016, 02:37:51 PM »
So, in short....what kind of conversation are you hoping to have? Honestly.

The type of conversation where instead of pointlessly picking apart the examples as if PCism is a myth and does not exist, people just own it and explain how it affect their lives.  Why for example is the debate over Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays even relevant?  Why is the skin color of inventors or quarterbacks returned in a search result even relevant?  Why are college professors fired for having conservative views?  Why do companies proclaim "values" that ultimately terminate good employees?

So the conversation you want to have is one where we all accept your worldview and conclusions and make sure to never question any of it?

Just making sure.

Where did I ask anyone to accept my world view or conclusions?  I asked for everyone else's views and conclusions. 
 


In the quote above... people should just own it

The problem is that we can't as you are coming in with thories based on misunderstaning technology and reading false news.

If you had tried to write a thread that made a little more senseyou mighth have got a discussion.

Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2016, 02:43:50 PM »
Once again, the problem is that your data is incomplete and/or bad, and so the conclusions that follow hold no credibility. Tried to make that clear here (click the quote)

*snip*

Offline Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2016, 02:46:09 PM »
Everyone else responded to 7th already, so I'm just gonna respond to Stadler.

Yes. The Google algorithm is working as it should. Like was stated earlier in the thread, it likely is picking up American from "African American." It's not just Google. Make the same search on Bing, and you'll find similar results. Also, it's funny that many of the links on the first page of the search are threads on other websites bringing up the same issue you are, like for example a thread on /r/altright.

But why?  Why not "Polish American" or, more commonly, "Irish American" or "Italian American".  That it's making that logical (in the Boolean sense) leap is part of the discussion point, isn't it?

That's true. That just means that fewer people are writing about those people, which is a great topic for discussion, but it doesn't seem like we're going to get there any time soon.

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No, because that wouldn't happen. Ignoring most black accomplishments and focusing on white history has been the standard for hundreds of years.

Um, I think his point is that TODAY - not "hundreds of years ago" - we're in a hyper politically correct state where we're overcompensating for "hundreds of years".  Why not avoid the effort to "counter program" the racism, and just let the numbers fall where they may?   After all, two wrongs don't make a right.

That's a valid point, but I would need to discuss where the point of overcompensating is. I'd say well known, white inventors that are already household names not showing up in the first several results of a specific Google search isn't reaching that point. That's not a big deal to me.

For me, an example of counter culture PCism going a little too far was the brief movement a few years ago trying to show calling someone an idiot or stupid is as offensive as maliciously calling someone retarded. However, that was short-lived and mostly harmless.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2016, 02:57:17 PM »
So, in short....what kind of conversation are you hoping to have? Honestly.

The type of conversation where instead of pointlessly picking apart the examples as if PCism is a myth and does not exist, people just own it and explain how it affect their lives.  Why for example is the debate over Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays even relevant?  Why is the skin color of inventors or quarterbacks returned in a search result even relevant?  Why are college professors fired for having conservative views?  Why do companies proclaim "values" that ultimately terminate good employees?

So the conversation you want to have is one where we all accept your worldview and conclusions and make sure to never question any of it?

Just making sure.

Where did I ask anyone to accept my world view or conclusions?  I asked for everyone else's views and conclusions. 
 


In the quote above... people should just own it

The problem is that we can't as you are coming in with thories based on misunderstaning technology and reading false news.

If you had tried to write a thread that made a little more senseyou mighth have got a discussion.

Nonsense.  Misunderstanding technology and fake news are perfect examples to spawn conversation.  Here're my observations so far:

1. I posted a thread asking for people's views of political correctness, but I used a politically incorrect example.  People attacked the example.
2. I posted more politically incorrect examples to support the original politically incorrect example.  People attacked my character.
3. I posted both fake and real news that say essentially the same thing.  People attack the false news, and zero in on the ambiguity of the real news discrediting both as if anything pulled from the internet can be considered credible.
4. Now the conversation is supposedly invalid because of my posts, yet few have actually addressed the issue of political correctness as it pertains to them (my original question).  I've even been accused of trying to force my views on others.

My conclusion is that the very idea of political correctness as a social phenomenon has now become politically incorrect itself, hence the title of the thread.  I was asking a very deep and thoughtful question here, and I got mostly shallow and trite argumentative psuedo-answers that don't even come close to addressing the social problems I am clearly illustrating.  But I am an optimist, I think once we get past the whole test-of-wills between fundamental political alignments, there is a real conversation here waiting to happen.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:09:00 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2016, 03:03:29 PM »
Once again, the problem is that your data is incomplete and/or bad, and so the conclusions that follow hold no credibility. Tried to make that clear here (click the quote)

*snip*

Okay, now you are getting somewhere.  The data in my original post was not "bad" it just is.  Search for American Inventors and you will get a blackwashed list.  That is undeniable.  The question of it being *intentionally* blackwashed is irrelevant to my reaction as a consumer of the data.  My conclusion was based on assumption.  Much like people assume Trump is a Nazi because of things they have seen on the internet.  The key word here is credibility, which is where PCism comes into play.  Who gets to decide what is credible and what is not when the information is subjective and open to interpretation?  Some may see those search results as normal, some may see them as racist, which is "credible" in their assessment when the list itself is incomplete and inaccurate?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2016, 03:11:10 PM »
Everything you have presented is either fake or based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts.

No, everything I have presented is based on political correctness.
Yeah, but apparently not factual correctness.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2016, 03:16:11 PM »
Why do I get the feeling I'm being gaslighted?

Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2016, 03:22:26 PM »
Once again, the problem is that your data is incomplete and/or bad, and so the conclusions that follow hold no credibility. Tried to make that clear here (click the quote)

*snip*

Okay, now you are getting somewhere.  The data in my original post was not "bad" it just is.  Search for American Inventors and you will get a blackwashed list.  That is undeniable.  The question of it being *intentionally* blackwashed is irrelevant to my reaction as a consumer of the data.  My conclusion was based on assumption.  Much like people assume Trump is a Nazi because of things they have seen on the internet.  The key word here is credibility, which is where PCism comes into play.  Who gets to decide what is credible and what is not when the information is subjective and open to interpretation?  Some may see those search results as normal, some may see them as racist, which is "credible" in their assessment when the list itself is incomplete and inaccurate?

You didn't respond to a single point in the reference post. And you expect me to continue dialogue with you?

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2016, 04:03:38 PM »
Everything you have presented is either fake or based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts.

No, everything I have presented is based on political correctness.
Yeah, but apparently not factual correctness.

Right, exactly.  That is the point.  Political correctness is not a factual phenomenon, nor does it require something to be factually correct to be considered politically correct.  As someone else posted, often those referred to as African Americans are not factually African at all.  I am coming from the position that if we want to have fact-based discourse PCism cannot be employed.  What is your position?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 04:13:13 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2016, 04:15:27 PM »
Why do I get the feeling I'm being gaslighted?

One person's sanity is another's insanity.  I am only asking for opinions here.  I am not trying to change anyone's mind.  I am a firm believer in freewill and freethinking.  If you find social value in PCism, then this is a place where you can say so and I will consider your views.  I may argue that they are different than my views, but I won't put you down for having them.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2016, 04:57:34 PM »
Once again, the problem is that your data is incomplete and/or bad, and so the conclusions that follow hold no credibility. Tried to make that clear here (click the quote)

*snip*

Okay, now you are getting somewhere.  The data in my original post was not "bad" it just is.  Search for American Inventors and you will get a blackwashed list.  That is undeniable.  The question of it being *intentionally* blackwashed is irrelevant to my reaction as a consumer of the data.  My conclusion was based on assumption.  Much like people assume Trump is a Nazi because of things they have seen on the internet.  The key word here is credibility, which is where PCism comes into play.  Who gets to decide what is credible and what is not when the information is subjective and open to interpretation?  Some may see those search results as normal, some may see them as racist, which is "credible" in their assessment when the list itself is incomplete and inaccurate?

You didn't respond to a single point in the reference post. And you expect me to continue dialogue with you?

I will respond to your longer post, I just got sidetracked cooking dinner for the offspring.  You make some good points, I will weigh in when I return.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2016, 07:04:24 PM »
I make statements that cannot be verified?  Like what?  Do the search, see the results.  What I said was 100% verifiable by anyone with access to google. 
Yes, you have brought to the group's attention that, on at least 2 or 3 data points, Google search results yield a higher quantity pictures of black people. There could be a lot of reasons for that, many of them inconsequential. It is just two datapoints (google search results on inventors, and quarterbacks). I just searched "famous celebrities" and Kanye and Beyonce were the only two blacks in an initial cut of like 10. I then tried "famous chefs", and they were all white. I tried "famous democrats", and aside from the Obamas, everyone was white. I guess my three data points Trump your two data points. Even if your data points did represent a trend, there's still this:

Google is blackwashing some of its search results.  The only conclusion I can muster as to why they would do this is to apply political correctness in order to influence people's worldview.     

Your exercise most certainly does not support that conclusion. And even if there were a trend - which there isn't - you wouldn't be able to say that, because there are a lot of reasons Google's search results could be the way they are.

Logic would dictate that inventors would be listed by name or by chronological criteria.  Right? 
As a reminded, that's not how Google has ever worked, no most internet search engines. THIS is how Google works: https://www.google.com/insidesearch/howsearchworks/thestory/
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet/basics/google1.htm

Seems this knowledge will be beneficial for you, considering you've said in another thread that you think you can learn more from Google searches than established news organizations.

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Want to have some more PC fun?  Next google the question: are shoes racist?  And read down a page or two.  Evidently certain shoes are indeed racist.  I had no idea that I could offend someone simply by wearing the wrong shoes.
Again, so what? You use the internet to find all sorts of opinions. For some of my own PC fun, I decided to Google your own question "Google blackwashing search results", and what I found were a list of polemic, clickbait articles, many from sources that appeared pretty "Aryan" in nature. How is this credible?

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If you have to work to get what I am saying, that is good.  If you don't get it at all that is fine too.  But I think the discussion should happen and no I am not interested in a one way thing here.  I am *asking* your opinion, you are choosing to attack my character instead of the issue I raised.
I am not attacking your character, I'm attacking the illogical, unscientific way you try to convince people of your worldview. See, "logic" and "science", which you seem to value, aren't about finding one or two data points, and then running with whatever preferred conclusion you can muster that doesn't contradict those two data points. The scaffolding on which your whole schpeel rests (i.e., two data points) completely collapsed the minute I decided to Google three more things.

Your points here would be applicable if we are discussing search algorithms and approaching analysis of PCism scientifically.  But we are not.  I will say it once again: the reason the results are blackwashed does not matter.  They just are and because they are the results are open for interpretation.  PCism dictates the acceptable and unacceptable interpretations.  That is where I take issue with it.

If we have to digress into technical details, I know how search engines work.  I know that those horizontal controls are populated from special queries that are independent of the normal search process.  It is VERY possible that black activists are in that list because some smug-ass leftist jerk thinks they are doing the world a favor by stacking a common academic search.  Notice, those horizontal list controls don't pop up for every search.  They only popup for searches related to people associated with various fields.  For example, a search of American Automobiles does not list cars using that UI element.  The horizontal list is there deliberately placed by programmers and tested with those searches.  Given the gross misinformation we have all seen from major media outlets, does it not stand to reason to conclude Google at least didn't care enough to create a better way to list people and their accomplishments?  Isn't that them being horrifically racist from a PC perspective? 

So while I respect the points you are trying to make, you are having a different argument than I am.  I am not asserting any worldview here for people to accept.  I actually don't want a world where everyone subscribes to groupthink.  I think it is healthy when people disagree on these matters and I think history has proven that times are worst when people all believe or "know" the same things. 

Where I will jab a bit is when I read things like this statement:  I found were a list of polemic, clickbait articles, many from sources that appeared pretty "Aryan" in nature. How is this credible?

Do you realize that very statement is horrifically racist?  Is a source immediately not credible if they appear "Aryan"?  I don't think the color of the skin of the messenger affects credibility in any way.  But political correctness has deemed it okay to assume the words of a white source that looks a certain way are automatically false.  You've been handed a license to be discriminatory and bigoted, and I am not sure you are even aware of it.  Do you not see the problem with that?  What if the "Aryan" bloke is telling the truth and is only ignored because of preconceived assumptions about their trustworthiness?

So far I have shown that Google data can be interpreted in unlimited ways, that fake news and real news can say the same thing and both will be ignored if the story doesn't fit PC norms, and that simply by asking an unPC question will be met with calls for scientific evidence and committee approved conclusions.  Then, the cherry on top: It is suggested that I'm the one hindering conversation. 


 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2016, 08:24:34 PM »
Your points here would be applicable if we are discussing search algorithms and approaching analysis of PCism scientifically.  But we are not.  I will say it once again: the reason the results are blackwashed does not matter.
But results are not blackwashed. You have two data points that are contradicted by about as many that I can try.

Quote
If we have to digress into technical details, I know how search engines work.  I know that those horizontal controls are populated from special queries that are independent of the normal search process.  It is VERY possible that black activists are in that list because some smug-ass leftist jerk thinks they are doing the world a favor by stacking a common academic search.  Notice, those horizontal list controls don't pop up for every search.  They only popup for searches related to people associated with various fields.  For example, a search of American Automobiles does not list cars using that UI element.  The horizontal list is there deliberately placed by programmers and tested with those searches.  Given the gross misinformation we have all seen from major media outlets, does it not stand to reason to conclude Google at least didn't care enough to create a better way to list people and their accomplishments?  Isn't that them being horrifically racist from a PC perspective? 
So, if this is a concession that Google aren't "intentionally" blackwashing things (I'm not sure it is), what you are saying is that you'd like Google to change their search engine in order to yield what you personally feel the results should look like. To me, that sounds like YOU are asking Google to be the activist.

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Do you realize that very statement is horrifically racist?  Is a source immediately not credible if they appear "Aryan"?
No, I mean like white supremacist. Not just white guy.

Quote
So far I have shown that Google data can be interpreted in unlimited ways, that fake news and real news can say the same thing and both will be ignored if the story doesn't fit PC norms, and that simply by asking an unPC question will be met with calls for scientific evidence and committee approved conclusions.  Then, the cherry on top: It is suggested that I'm the one hindering conversation. 
The bold part is the only part you've really demonstrated at all, to be honest.

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2016, 09:31:32 PM »
I must spend better time with my 5-50 minutes of insomnia per night
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2016, 09:51:31 PM »
But results are not blackwashed. You have two data points that are contradicted by about as many that I can try.

To me, that sounds like YOU are asking Google to be the activist.

Quote
Do you realize that very statement is horrifically racist?  Is a source immediately not credible if they appear "Aryan"?
No, I mean like white supremacist. Not just white guy.

The bold part is the only part you've really demonstrated at all, to be honest.

1. You do not know for a fact if they are blackwashed or not.
2. I would like organizations like google to just return results.  When I query American Inventor I expect to see Les Paul on the list (and I am a Fender guy :metal).
3. So then a white supremacist can never be credible?  What about a black supremacist?  Or how about a militant feminist?  I think they can all be credible and I respect their freedom of choice.  Do you?
4. Clearly I have demonstrated much that maybe you just aren't willing to accept right now.  That is 100% okay too.  It is just conversation. 

I am still waiting to hear how you feel about PCism.  Forget google searches or Aryan details related to my posts.  What do YOU think?  Have you ever been accused of something on PC grounds?  Have you ever had to fire an employee for saying awful shit to another employee?  Have you ever had to interview a transvestite for a job?  I have had these types of experiences with politically correct/incorrect situations in the real world.  Have you?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:19:08 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2016, 10:52:37 PM »
I have never had a problem with Political Correctnes.

I am fine with words being seen as not ok to use in this day and age. It is  a different world today with a much more diverse mixture of people who needto get along.

There is only one instance where it has gone a little to far in my opinion and that is in rereleasing childrens books. Changig the text that was written (out of no ill content) some 60 years ago instead of adding a foreword about the languge use.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2016, 11:15:42 PM »
I have never had a problem with Political Correctnes.

I am fine with words being seen as not ok to use in this day and age. It is  a different world today with a much more diverse mixture of people who needto get along.

There is only one instance where it has gone a little to far in my opinion and that is in rereleasing childrens books. Changig the text that was written (out of no ill content) some 60 years ago instead of adding a foreword about the languge use.

Man that is a great point about changing works of art.  Whether it be Star Wars and Han Solo shooting first or the racial language of Huck Finn, I do not agree with dumbing down art in the interest of political correctness. 

I am also fine with deprecating hateful useless words btw.  If political correctness was simply a practice of refining language to be better language for everyone that would be okay with me.  But sadly that is not what PCism is.  PCism is a power structure where those in power are allowed to dictate what is acceptable and inacceptable to the masses.  BTW, many younger people may not know this but modern PCism came back into fashion during the first Clinton administration.  Prior to that race relations were WAY better than they are today, the arts much more diverse, and shows like Sanford and Son or All in the Family could explore racial tension through art.  Try that now and you'll be written off as racist.  On a musical level, artists like Prince, Living Color, Aerosmith, and Anthrax tore down very thick walls that modern liberals have resurrected via PCism.  Sorry if that seems accusatory towards liberals, but it is how I have seen it play out.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2016, 12:26:04 AM »
Glad I could help you find a real issue so you don't have to rely  upon imagined issues...

Bring up more real issues if you want a discussion.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2016, 12:51:14 AM »
Glad I could help you find a real issue so you don't have to rely  upon imagined issues...

Bring up more real issues if you want a discussion.

Well, let's try that.  I will bring up a real PC issue and lets see if people will acknowledge that it is real:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/opinion/pedophilia-a-disorder-not-a-crime.html?_r=0

So now it is unPC to consider sex with children a crime.  The NYT, supposedly an accurate source of information, is educating us that we need to rethink how society views this psychological issue (not crime or problem).

So is the PC movement to change society's view of pedophilia real? 


"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2016, 12:55:05 AM »
I have a lot to say, but I am really tired and have a huge test tomorrow, so I'll say more tomorrow, but to quickly touch on that last thing you said.


That article you posted....is bad. It's also an opinion piece and should be treated as such. It's not a new trend, it's an opinion.

Now, realistically, if pedophilia is considered a disorder, it's still a crime. Well, the attraction isn't a crime, but the action is.

It can be both a disorder and a crime, much like other disorders that are crimes if acted upon.

This also has nothing to do with being PC. I can assure you that it's not a popular trend to not consider pedophilia a crime.

PC should be measured by popular trend, not fringe opinions.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2016, 01:36:57 AM »

This also has nothing to do with being PC. I can assure you that it's not a popular trend to not consider pedophilia a crime.

PC should be measured by popular trend, not fringe opinions.

Sadly, it is not fringe: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42108748/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/massive-online-pedophile-ring-busted-cops/#.WFOf_IWcGUk

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201611241047790760-norway-pedophile-ring-busted/

Heck, even bastions of so-called reason are known to minimize it: http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/richard_dawkins_defends_mild_pedophilia_says_it_does_not_cause_lasting_harm/

Right now it appears there are forums just like this where people openly talk about these awful crimes.  The people busted aren't scurvy molester types, they are professionals and elitists from the affluent walks of life.  My opinion is that if Hillary were to have been elected, by 2024 the legal age of consent would be federal and lowered to around 11 years old and anyone who dared condemn the "scientists" who claim 11 is old enough would be deemed politically incorrect (or ignorant as Michael Jackson would say).
 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2016, 01:42:04 AM »

Now, realistically, if pedophilia is considered a disorder, it's still a crime. Well, the attraction isn't a crime, but the action is.


So here is a tough series of questions for you: Is a person a racist for having racist thoughts?  Or only when they take action?  Is being a racist a disorder or a crime?  If either, are they to be condemned or treated/rehabilitated?

 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2016, 01:43:04 AM »
Minus your completely random and unnecessary Hillary bashing, your point doesn't address mine.

I didn't say pedophilia was a fringe thing, I said the idea of not considering it a crime is.

And it is.

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Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2016, 01:43:42 AM »

Now, realistically, if pedophilia is considered a disorder, it's still a crime. Well, the attraction isn't a crime, but the action is.


So here is a tough series of questions for you: Is a person a racist for having racist thoughts?  Or only when they take action?  Is being a racist a disorder or a crime?  If either, are they to be condemned or treated/rehabilitated?

They are unrelated and have nothing to do with each other.

But to answer your questions.....yes, irrelevant, neither, neither.
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Offline DragonAttack

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2016, 03:06:05 AM »
I'm still waiting for the response from 7th as to why Doug Flutie is the first listed QB for 'Canadian quarterbacks'. 

Whitewashing, as in movies? 

I mean, come on, Warren Moon should be first due to all the Grey Cups he won.

Answer?????
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Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2016, 05:10:00 AM »
1. You do not know for a fact if they are blackwashed or not.
You made the claim that they were blackwashing their search results, and there's no clear evidence of that other than your two data points, which are outnumbered by many. When you open an argument by making claims like that, the burden of proof is on you to support your claim. You haven't done that.

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2. I would like organizations like google to just return results.  When I query American Inventor I expect to see Les Paul on the list (and I am a Fender guy :metal).
Create your own search engine that filters alphabetically and see how useful it is.

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3. So then a white supremacist can never be credible?  What about a black supremacist?  Or how about a militant feminist?  I think they can all be credible and I respect their freedom of choice.  Do you?
To the bolded parts... short answer? No. Any racial or gender supremacy ideology has been totally discredited. 

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4. Clearly I have demonstrated much that maybe you just aren't willing to accept right now.  That is 100% okay too.  It is just conversation. 
I'll accept things you demonstrate when you get around to providing evidence.

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I am still waiting to hear how you feel about PCism.  Forget google searches or Aryan details related to my posts.  What do YOU think?  Have you ever been accused of something on PC grounds? 
I've occasionally been accused of being racist, sexist, and all other sorts of things. I've also worked with real live racists. I've also worked with minorities. I've worked with lesbian, gay and transgendered people. I get along with everyone. I don't see what your point is at all.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2016, 07:34:40 AM »
I'm still waiting for the response from 7th as to why Doug Flutie is the first listed QB for 'Canadian quarterbacks'. 

Whitewashing, as in movies? 

I mean, come on, Warren Moon should be first due to all the Grey Cups he won.

Answer?????

Well, Doug Flutie is probably ranked the number one Canadian Football League qb.  Fits perfectly with rankings relating to which *inventor* *musician* *football player* has the most fame showing up at the top of a search query.  But once again, this thread and my example aren't about search results.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Stadler

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2016, 07:40:11 AM »

For me, an example of counter culture PCism going a little too far was the brief movement a few years ago trying to show calling someone an idiot or stupid is as offensive as maliciously calling someone retarded. However, that was short-lived and mostly harmless.

I'm not posting this to be argumentative, but to try to keep this on track. :)

I don't think it's harmless.  I think it gives credence to the very act of trying to put parameters around words.  Frankly, I think even the "retarded" argument was too far.   The fact of the matter is, we get to be offensive if we want, and we have to live with reasonable consequences of doing so.  I think that's another way that the PC movement has gone off the rails; we have come to this conclusion that bad things like bullying and coercion are all of a sudden "ok" because our motives are supposedly "good". 

Offline Stadler

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #99 on: December 16, 2016, 07:45:16 AM »
In the quote above... people should just own it

The problem is that we can't as you are coming in with thories based on misunderstaning technology and reading false news.

If you had tried to write a thread that made a little more senseyou mighth have got a discussion.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with the premise, but here's where your ad hominem attack fails:  it's exactly the point that Google and yahoo - search engines that are presumably content neutral - are essentially pandering in "fake news".   Why IS the search engine confusing "American" - which covers all 325 million people who currently live here, and the 100's of millions that have in the past (and don't now, for various reasons, including death) - with "African American", which right now covers only about 40 million people who currently live here, and at best 10's of millions that have in the past.   THAT'S the real point, and if you don't like how he got there, so be it, but don't dismiss it.  Answer the question.

Offline Stadler

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #100 on: December 16, 2016, 07:47:46 AM »
I have never had a problem with Political Correctnes.

I am fine with words being seen as not ok to use in this day and age. It is  a different world today with a much more diverse mixture of people who needto get along.

There is only one instance where it has gone a little to far in my opinion and that is in rereleasing childrens books. Changig the text that was written (out of no ill content) some 60 years ago instead of adding a foreword about the languge use.

Could you share who made you the ultimate arbiter of what is "ok in this day and age"?   What about those people for whom it's NOT ok?   Why FORCE the "getting along"? 

Offline Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #101 on: December 16, 2016, 08:35:16 AM »

For me, an example of counter culture PCism going a little too far was the brief movement a few years ago trying to show calling someone an idiot or stupid is as offensive as maliciously calling someone retarded. However, that was short-lived and mostly harmless.

I'm not posting this to be argumentative, but to try to keep this on track. :)

I don't think it's harmless.  I think it gives credence to the very act of trying to put parameters around words.  Frankly, I think even the "retarded" argument was too far.   The fact of the matter is, we get to be offensive if we want, and we have to live with reasonable consequences of doing so.  I think that's another way that the PC movement has gone off the rails; we have come to this conclusion that bad things like bullying and coercion are all of a sudden "ok" because our motives are supposedly "good".

No worries! I know you like a good discussion.

I think you and I agree that social bullying and call out culture are among the worst things to come out of this kind of social movement. (I still don't think PCism is a good word for it, but whatever.)

However, I don't think that means that the concepts themselves are bad. You say that you are allowed to be offensive if you want, but you must face the consequences, and I agree.

I guess we need to discuss as to what level of consequence is okay and what you would consider going too far is. Like if someone were in a private conversation and described something as retarded, and the other person frowned and said they didn't think that's a very nice thing to say, I'd say that's fine. Of course in reality, that kind of response doesn't happen often. More like people that are really bothered by that sort of language will just avoid that person more often.

Going too far would be not saying something, and then going around and tell all their friends that said person is a bigot and awful human being. That's just making a lot of assumptions and not fair imo.

That said I do think that many people are too quick to call "pls no bully" when a large group of people are upset by what someone says. I know that's a pointless statement since I don't have an example though.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness response. Typed it from my phone.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2016, 08:51:16 AM »
So I'm going to go around filling out the box on every form and every application that says "Pacific Islander" instead of "Caucasian", since I was born in Kenya Hawaii, because TECHNICALLY, it is an island in the Pacific, despite the fact that I have a more Germanic lineage.  Am I doing this right?

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2016, 08:55:03 AM »

Now, realistically, if pedophilia is considered a disorder, it's still a crime. Well, the attraction isn't a crime, but the action is.


So here is a tough series of questions for you: Is a person a racist for having racist thoughts?  Or only when they take action?  Is being a racist a disorder or a crime?  If either, are they to be condemned or treated/rehabilitated?

They are unrelated and have nothing to do with each other.

But to answer your questions.....yes, irrelevant, neither, neither.

Oh but they are indeed related within the context of political correctness deciding who are "bad people" and who get a social pass for their "disorder".  So in your view pedophile thoughts don't equal a person actually being a pedophile, they get a pass, but racist thoughts means a person is a racist and they get no pass.  How anyone can come to that conclusion is really baffling.  What about homophobic thoughts versus homophobic actions?  Isn't the irrational fear of homosexuality a "disorder" and should be treated as such, meaning we wouldn't persecute and ostracize people for having those fears and thoughts?  Or does that social perk provided by political correctness only apply to those who want to have sex with children?  I mean, basically you are saying that Anthony Weiner has an understandable and acceptable problem, but Al Sharpton is a bad person because he has racist thoughts.  Slippery slope you are on.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2016, 08:57:00 AM »
Well no, because I didn't say almost any of the stuff you just said I said.

I didn't say anything about passes, or good people or bad people. That was all you.

Nor did I say any of it was a disorder. I just said it things can be both a disorder and a crime if you act on them.
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