Author Topic: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...  (Read 3430 times)

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2016, 10:54:57 PM »
Just so you know, if you do an image search on Yahoo, it does the same thing. It's just an issue arising from your search terms.

Also, from Yahoo:



I saw that too earlier this evening and laughed my ass off.  WHY does Yahoo come up with that alternate search term???  Bootylicious?  Really!?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 04:25:19 AM »
Talking about racism is a good idea, but this thread is handling it very poorly. Google "blackwashing" search results? Seriously?

Honestly, I want to engage this, but in the past it seems to me that 7th, unlike other posters I disagree with here, will make statements that can't be verified, will then either ignore or deflect requests to clarify from other posters, and then instead of engaging in dialogue will move on to the next strange, unsupportable statement. That's asking a lot of effort from me, when I know the return on my effort probably won't be worth it.

7th, no offense, but it doesn't seem to me like you're interested in actual discussion at all, and more that you just want a platform to expound this stuff and not be scrutinized. Why not forgo the farce and just start a blog?

Online Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2016, 08:02:16 AM »
Agreed, 7th. A thread discussing PC stuff is cool. But truthfully, this search result stuff is utter nonsense. The search algorithm is working how it should, and Google is never perfect. Sometimes you have to change your search criteria to get what you're looking for. Google is a tool you have to know how to use, not a magic mind reading box.

Offline Stadler

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 08:04:13 AM »
Google appears to be intentionally stacking the list with minority inventors.  So, it is a reasonable conclusion that Google is blackwashing history and that simple search is very solid evidence of it.

and I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise. 

Hmmmm

Why are you pounding on him?   Agree or not, that's fine.   Discuss the details of the "experiment", that's fine.  Personally, I haven't even bothered to do the search, I just assume that these places - Google, Yahoo, Facebook - are a function of the people that program them and so it's all taken in context.   But your dismissiveness is rather condescending and off-putting. 

Online El Barto

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2016, 08:05:36 AM »
@7th: You want to discuss pros and cons. Well the con is that it's the single greatest threat to America's existence. Can you throw out a single pro to get the ball rolling?
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2016, 12:27:22 PM »
Talking about racism is a good idea, but this thread is handling it very poorly. Google "blackwashing" search results? Seriously?

Honestly, I want to engage this, but in the past it seems to me that 7th, unlike other posters I disagree with here, will make statements that can't be verified, will then either ignore or deflect requests to clarify from other posters, and then instead of engaging in dialogue will move on to the next strange, unsupportable statement. That's asking a lot of effort from me, when I know the return on my effort probably won't be worth it.

7th, no offense, but it doesn't seem to me like you're interested in actual discussion at all, and more that you just want a platform to expound this stuff and not be scrutinized. Why not forgo the farce and just start a blog?

I make statements that cannot be verified?  Like what?  Do the search, see the results.  What I said was 100% verifiable by anyone with access to google.  Better yet, do the American quarterbacks search.  That one is even more blatant.  Remember also that I am showing two examples here.  One example is that information is presented in certain way, and the other example is my reaction to it.  Both show how dangerous PCism is to society.  If you have to work to get what I am saying, that is good.  If you don't get it at all that is fine too.  But I think the discussion should happen and no I am not interested in a one way thing here.  I am *asking* your opinion, you are choosing to attack my character instead of the issue I raised.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2016, 12:33:26 PM »
Agreed, 7th. A thread discussing PC stuff is cool. But truthfully, this search result stuff is utter nonsense. The search algorithm is working how it should, and Google is never perfect. Sometimes you have to change your search criteria to get what you're looking for. Google is a tool you have to know how to use, not a magic mind reading box.

So you are okay with a search for American inventors returning black entrepreneurs, community organizers, and activists instead of a list of American inventors?  Does it not occur to people that if the black/white double standard were not applied here, and say the list came back all white, google would be targeted as racists and have the media and lawyers climbing up their ass?  How the search is conducted is not the issue at all.  Amazing that is the only aspect of this example people are focusing on.  No wonder society is such a mess.  The human factors are being completely ignored.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2016, 12:48:19 PM »
@7th: You want to discuss pros and cons. Well the con is that it's the single greatest threat to America's existence. Can you throw out a single pro to get the ball rolling?

Sure, PCism can be useful to manipulate and control people.  That is a pro to those who want to manipulate and control people. :-)

Seriously, I agree with the idea of establishing social norms that aim to rid hateful and divisive speech.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  But when a black person can use words without social recourse but other races cannot, that is unequal social treatment.  When a liberal can spout filth and flame ad nauseam but a conservative is silenced (think Moore vs. Shapiro or better yet, the MP forum vs 7th) that is unfair and works against equality.  I am a supporter of the idea that absolute equality is easily achievable but PCism has to be put in check for that to happen.  PCism doesn't consider equality at all, it only labels and then provides a framework for rules about how those labels are used.  Often those rules are turned against good people who misuse a label or worse, use a label that was once appropriate but now isn't.  I could care less if some 20 year old college student is "offended" by something Trump said, really, really could care less.  But, a 30 year college professor who has dedicated their life to providing solid education is fired for offending the college student by suggesting a conservative idea has merit, now that I care about.   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Online Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2016, 12:55:40 PM »
So you are okay with a search for American inventors returning black entrepreneurs, community organizers, and activists instead of a list of American inventors? 

Yes. The Google algorithm is working as it should. Like was stated earlier in the thread, it likely is picking up American from "African American." It's not just Google. Make the same search on Bing, and you'll find similar results. Also, it's funny that many of the links on the first page of the search are threads on other websites bringing up the same issue you are, like for example a thread on /r/altright.

Does it not occur to people that if the black/white double standard were not applied here, and say the list came back all white, google would be targeted as racists and have the media and lawyers climbing up their ass?

No, because that wouldn't happen. Ignoring most black accomplishments and focusing on white history has been the standard for hundreds of years.

How the search is conducted is not the issue at all.  Amazing that is the only aspect of this example people are focusing on.  No wonder society is such a mess.  The human factors are being completely ignored.

I don't understand your point. What else are you trying to get at here? What human factors?

Edit: Also you seem to be blaming "PCism" for a lot things in a way that's oversimplifying the issues. What it means to be PC isn't agreed upon by everyone, especially liberals. So it's hard to discuss something that isn't well defined.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2016, 12:58:23 PM »
 :facepalm:

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Online Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2016, 01:02:01 PM »
Is that in response to me? Because if I said something really stupid, I want to know.  :lol

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2016, 01:04:41 PM »

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Stadler

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2016, 01:13:32 PM »
So you are okay with a search for American inventors returning black entrepreneurs, community organizers, and activists instead of a list of American inventors? 

Yes. The Google algorithm is working as it should. Like was stated earlier in the thread, it likely is picking up American from "African American." It's not just Google. Make the same search on Bing, and you'll find similar results. Also, it's funny that many of the links on the first page of the search are threads on other websites bringing up the same issue you are, like for example a thread on /r/altright.

But why?  Why not "Polish American" or, more commonly, "Irish American" or "Italian American".  That it's making that logical (in the Boolean sense) leap is part of the discussion point, isn't it?

Quote
Does it not occur to people that if the black/white double standard were not applied here, and say the list came back all white, google would be targeted as racists and have the media and lawyers climbing up their ass?

No, because that wouldn't happen. Ignoring most black accomplishments and focusing on white history has been the standard for hundreds of years.

Um, I think his point is that TODAY - not "hundreds of years ago" - we're in a hyper politically correct state where we're overcompensating for "hundreds of years".  Why not avoid the effort to "counter program" the racism, and just let the numbers fall where they may?   After all, two wrongs don't make a right.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2016, 01:14:39 PM »
So you are okay with a search for American inventors returning black entrepreneurs, community organizers, and activists instead of a list of American inventors? 

Yes. The Google algorithm is working as it should. Like was stated earlier in the thread, it likely is picking up American from "African American." It's not just Google. Make the same search on Bing, and you'll find similar results. Also, it's funny that many of the links on the first page of the search are threads on other websites bringing up the same issue you are, like for example a thread on /r/altright.

Does it not occur to people that if the black/white double standard were not applied here, and say the list came back all white, google would be targeted as racists and have the media and lawyers climbing up their ass?

No, because that wouldn't happen. Ignoring most black accomplishments and focusing on white history has been the standard for hundreds of years.
 

How the search is conducted is not the issue at all.  Amazing that is the only aspect of this example people are focusing on.  No wonder society is such a mess.  The human factors are being completely ignored.

I don't understand your point. What else are you trying to get at here? What human factors?
[/quote]

My point is that whether or not the search engine is actually being "racist", a human can view it that way and because of PCism the search engine provider can be viewed socially as "racist" when in fact they haven't done anything racist at all.  Imagine someone taking the search for American quarterback and putting it on social media with a big "look at how racist google is" message.  That message would spread like wildfire leading people to believe something that may not be true at all.  The search results are racist, but that doesn't mean that Google is. 

As for ignoring black accomplishments that is utter nonsense.  I learned about great black contributors to society in school/college years ago.  Nobody is focusing on accomplishments by skin color, that idea has been planted in people's heads to further division.  Are the music charts segregated?  Are the sports teams segregated?  Is cern segregated?  NO.  Accomplishments are appreciated and respected no matter the skin color of the accomplisher.  PCism aims to imbalance this equality by injecting labels into every conversation. 

To answer your edit: Political Correctness is actually very well defined.  But it is a self-adjusting phenomenon that allows words and their meanings to change socially so even the term political correctness has become confused and it is about to become politically incorrect to even use the term.  But the definition is clear: the manipulation of language, or propaganda, to establish sociopolitical norms.  PCism dates way back to early communism by name, but you can see the phenomenon in most historical accounts.  Think Galileo's persecution.  PCism is kind of the language division of groupthink. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:21:04 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2016, 01:17:34 PM »
It's not Googles fault if people use the wrong search terms....

I might try:

united states inventors

Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2016, 01:20:59 PM »
Political Correctness is just a term for good manners.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2016, 01:22:17 PM »
It's not Googles fault if people use the wrong search terms....

I might try:

united states inventors

No, I wanted a list of American Inventors.  That would include Mexican and Canadian and South American inventors would it not?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2016, 01:23:59 PM »
No, because almost nobody would use the term "american" in that sense.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2016, 01:24:40 PM »
Political Correctness is just a term for good manners.

Are you saying it is good manners to treat adults like kindergarten children?  Now Johnny, don't use those no-no words like "Christmas" or we will fire you and destroy your entire life.   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2016, 01:26:03 PM »
Political Correctness is just a term for good manners.

Are you saying it is good manners to treat adults like kindergarten children?  Now Johnny, don't use those no-no words like "Christmas" or we will fire you and destroy your entire life.

You're arguing against a fictionalized extremist version of PCism instead of actual PCism. No one is being fired or having their lives destroyed for saying the word christmas.

This also has nothing to do with your point about too many black people on a google list, or your point about why black people are called African American.

In fact, I agree that calling all black people African-American is pretty dumb. I remember once in my class we have a black guy from England whose ancestors were from Jamaica, and they called him African American before realizing he was neither of those things. African Americans are people from Africa that live in America (or something similar), I agree that the term as it's used today is silly.

Then again, I'm a hypocrite in this case because I can't muster up the reason to call 98% of the population Cisgender.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2016, 01:27:13 PM »
No, because almost nobody would use the term "american" in that sense.

lol.  I was intentionally being PC again.  Suggesting that the search results should be all inclusive of everyone who could be considered American as to not leave anyone out.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2016, 01:31:50 PM »
No, because almost nobody would use the term "american" in that sense.

lol.  I was intentionally being PC again.  Suggesting that the search results should be all inclusive of everyone who could be considered American as to not leave anyone out.

Good. Keep doing that and you might make some new friends.

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2016, 01:33:54 PM »
No, because almost nobody would use the term "american" in that sense.

lol.  I was intentionally being PC again.  Suggesting that the search results should be all inclusive of everyone who could be considered American as to not leave anyone out.

Outside of some sort of nihilistic tantrum, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2016, 01:34:57 PM »
Political Correctness is just a term for good manners.

Are you saying it is good manners to treat adults like kindergarten children?  Now Johnny, don't use those no-no words like "Christmas" or we will fire you and destroy your entire life.

You're arguing against a fictionalized extremist version of PCism instead of actual PCism. No one is being fired or having their lives destroyed for saying the word christmas.



Are you sure about that?:

http://cbsnews.com.co/school-fires-teacher-after-saying-merry-christmas/

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28370145/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-claims-merry-christmas-got-her-fired/#.WFL-JoWcGUk

https://www.google.com/search?q=man+fired+for+saying+christmas&ie=&oe=#q=why+is+saying+merry+christmas+offensive



"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2016, 01:38:19 PM »
No, because almost nobody would use the term "american" in that sense.

lol.  I was intentionally being PC again.  Suggesting that the search results should be all inclusive of everyone who could be considered American as to not leave anyone out.

Outside of some sort of nihilistic tantrum, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

I am trying to accomplish a conversation on PCism.  The trollish responses are unnecessary.  I understand that many here may value political correctness in their lives, I'd like to know why.  Maybe I will learn something.  No tantrum, and I am not attacking or insulting anyone here at all.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2016, 01:40:31 PM »
Political Correctness is just a term for good manners.

Are you saying it is good manners to treat adults like kindergarten children?  Now Johnny, don't use those no-no words like "Christmas" or we will fire you and destroy your entire life.

You're arguing against a fictionalized extremist version of PCism instead of actual PCism. No one is being fired or having their lives destroyed for saying the word christmas.



Are you sure about that?:

http://cbsnews.com.co/school-fires-teacher-after-saying-merry-christmas/

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28370145/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-claims-merry-christmas-got-her-fired/#.WFL-JoWcGUk

https://www.google.com/search?q=man+fired+for+saying+christmas&ie=&oe=#q=why+is+saying+merry+christmas+offensive





That first website is just absolutely ridiculous and I can't take it seriously. The 2nd link said that she wasn't fired for saying it, just that she thought she was. A google search doesn't help much.


No, because almost nobody would use the term "american" in that sense.

lol.  I was intentionally being PC again.  Suggesting that the search results should be all inclusive of everyone who could be considered American as to not leave anyone out.

Outside of some sort of nihilistic tantrum, I honestly have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

I am trying to accomplish a conversation on PCism.  The trollish responses are unnecessary.  I understand that many here may value political correctness in their lives, I'd like to know why.  Maybe I will learn something.  No tantrum, and I am not attacking or insulting anyone here at all.

What conversation? You're literally posting extreme positions you don't even agree with. I have no idea what conversation you wish to start. Other people have asked and you haven't answered.

So, in short....what kind of conversation are you hoping to have? Honestly.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2016, 01:48:12 PM »
http://cbsnews.com.co/school-fires-teacher-after-saying-merry-christmas/

That's not cbs' website. It's fake. Also every single article mentions the same guy: Paul Horner, who on googling can be found to be a satirist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Horner

Quote
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28370145/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-claims-merry-christmas-got-her-fired/#.WFL-JoWcGUk

"Claimed".

Quote
https://www.google.com/search?q=man+fired+for+saying+christmas&ie=&oe=#q=why+is+saying+merry+christmas+offensive

I'm not trawling through google to find examples to support your point. You do it. And try finding ones you can't disprove with 8 seconds on google.

Online Chino

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2016, 01:56:15 PM »
This might be one of the worst threads we've had in this subforum.

Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2016, 01:56:54 PM »
I make statements that cannot be verified?  Like what?  Do the search, see the results.  What I said was 100% verifiable by anyone with access to google. 
Yes, you have brought to the group's attention that, on at least 2 or 3 data points, Google search results yield a higher quantity pictures of black people. There could be a lot of reasons for that, many of them inconsequential. It is just two datapoints (google search results on inventors, and quarterbacks). I just searched "famous celebrities" and Kanye and Beyonce were the only two blacks in an initial cut of like 10. I then tried "famous chefs", and they were all white. I tried "famous democrats", and aside from the Obamas, everyone was white. I guess my three data points Trump your two data points. Even if your data points did represent a trend, there's still this:

Google is blackwashing some of its search results.  The only conclusion I can muster as to why they would do this is to apply political correctness in order to influence people's worldview.     

Your exercise most certainly does not support that conclusion. And even if there were a trend - which there isn't - you wouldn't be able to say that, because there are a lot of reasons Google's search results could be the way they are.

Logic would dictate that inventors would be listed by name or by chronological criteria.  Right? 
As a reminded, that's not how Google has ever worked, no most internet search engines. THIS is how Google works: https://www.google.com/insidesearch/howsearchworks/thestory/
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet/basics/google1.htm

Seems this knowledge will be beneficial for you, considering you've said in another thread that you think you can learn more from Google searches than established news organizations.

Quote
Want to have some more PC fun?  Next google the question: are shoes racist?  And read down a page or two.  Evidently certain shoes are indeed racist.  I had no idea that I could offend someone simply by wearing the wrong shoes.
Again, so what? You use the internet to find all sorts of opinions. For some of my own PC fun, I decided to Google your own question "Google blackwashing search results", and what I found were a list of polemic, clickbait articles, many from sources that appeared pretty "Aryan" in nature. How is this credible?

Quote
If you have to work to get what I am saying, that is good.  If you don't get it at all that is fine too.  But I think the discussion should happen and no I am not interested in a one way thing here.  I am *asking* your opinion, you are choosing to attack my character instead of the issue I raised.
I am not attacking your character, I'm attacking the illogical, unscientific way you try to convince people of your worldview. See, "logic" and "science", which you seem to value, aren't about finding one or two data points, and then running with whatever preferred conclusion you can muster that doesn't contradict those two data points. The scaffolding on which your whole schpeel rests (i.e., two data points) completely collapsed the minute I decided to Google three more things.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2016, 02:00:47 PM »
So, in short....what kind of conversation are you hoping to have? Honestly.

The type of conversation where instead of pointlessly picking apart the examples as if PCism is a myth and does not exist, people just own it and explain how it affect their lives.  Why for example is the debate over Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays even relevant?  Why is the skin color of inventors or quarterbacks returned in a search result even relevant?  Why are college professors fired for having conservative views?  Why do companies proclaim "values" that ultimately terminate good employees?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2016, 02:04:55 PM »

Are you sure about that?:

http://cbsnews.com.co/school-fires-teacher-after-saying-merry-christmas/
Fake news site is fake.

I know it's a fake news site.  What's funny is that same site has another article that is reversed and the kid is expelled for saying Merry Christmas to the teacher.  And while you peeps are busy trying to debunk the bunk news, or discrediting those who "claimed" to be fired, you are missing that PCism is the reason that the bunk news exists in the first place.  PCism IS the paramount problem in our world right now.  That is my point and everything I have presented here shows just how dangerous it is to liberty, equality, justice and the quest for knowledge.   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2016, 02:08:03 PM »
Everything you have presented is either fake or based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts.

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2016, 02:20:47 PM »
So, in short....what kind of conversation are you hoping to have? Honestly.

The type of conversation where instead of pointlessly picking apart the examples as if PCism is a myth and does not exist, people just own it and explain how it affect their lives.  Why for example is the debate over Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays even relevant?  Why is the skin color of inventors or quarterbacks returned in a search result even relevant?  Why are college professors fired for having conservative views?  Why do companies proclaim "values" that ultimately terminate good employees?

So the conversation you want to have is one where we all accept your worldview and conclusions and make sure to never question any of it?

Just making sure.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2016, 02:25:19 PM »
Everything you have presented is either fake or based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts.

No, everything I have presented is based on political correctness.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin