Author Topic: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...  (Read 3528 times)

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #140 on: December 17, 2016, 10:08:46 PM »

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Christianity, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the parents unwillingness to step up and do the play on private time, and the students are suffering for it.

Yes we should study religions in school.  And no, in this case, stopping a Dickens play is not equal to a Nazi book burning, because it is a play specifically done to celebrate a religious holiday, using publics school time and resources to produce.

Also, changed your post to illustrate another viewpoint.

Hey, the change you made is true, I won't argue that, but I stated that I wasn't offended by Islam.  Why do you suppose these parents were offended by a Christmas play?  Actually, why beat around the bush, why is Islam PC protected but Christianity is not?  Because that is definitely the case even though as you point out both have unPC scriptural teachings.

I can only guess as to the parents reasons.  Perhaps they were tired of the public school using large amounts of time putting on a play every year celebrating a religious holiday.  Maybe they were tired of watching their kids feeling left out every year.  Maybe they hate Jesus, Dickens, Theater, or even puppies.  Who knows and who cares.  It is all moot.  The public school shouldnt be taking 20 friggin hours of school time to do a play celebrating ANY religious holiday.  No PC issue here at all.  Its a public school....you dont just get to do what you want.

And Islam PC being protected, with Christianity PC not, is simply not the case.  That is another opinion, likely based in personal anecdotal experience, or false narrative, and not in any actual, valid, broad and unbiased evidence.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 10:14:38 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #141 on: December 17, 2016, 10:37:51 PM »
If Christmas is not on a Saturday or Sunday, do you feel that public schools should be open that day?  Because if it's a religious holiday, then why are they getting the day off?

Because it's a national holiday.

And I sure hope these parents bitching about this aren't celebrating Christmas or buying their kids Christmas presents.  I mean, why would they celebrate a religious holiday, right??

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #142 on: December 17, 2016, 10:51:56 PM »
If Christmas is not on a Saturday or Sunday, do you feel that public schools should be open that day?  Because if it's a religious holiday, then why are they getting the day off?

Because it's a national holiday.

And I sure hope these parents bitching about this aren't celebrating Christmas or buying their kids Christmas presents.  I mean, why would they celebrate a religious holiday, right??

IMO, if the school is going to be closed on major christian holidays, it should be closed on other major religious holidays.  It being a national holiday has no bearing....it is still a religious holiday, and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Im sure the parents "bitching" about this arent using public school resources or time to celebrate christmas or buy gifts.
Im also sure the parents "bitching" about losing the play arent spending one solitary second of their own time to do their SO important "tradition".

This simply isnt a PC issue.  It is a public school using resources innappropriately.  No one is stopping anyone from celebrating and worshipping anything on their own time.  Its a PUBLIC school....if no one involved with the school has any objections, rock on....but clearly some do.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 10:57:24 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #143 on: December 17, 2016, 11:04:53 PM »

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Christianity, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the parents unwillingness to step up and do the play on private time, and the students are suffering for it.

Yes we should study religions in school.  And no, in this case, stopping a Dickens play is not equal to a Nazi book burning, because it is a play specifically done to celebrate a religious holiday, using publics school time and resources to produce.

Also, changed your post to illustrate another viewpoint.

Hey, the change you made is true, I won't argue that, but I stated that I wasn't offended by Islam.  Why do you suppose these parents were offended by a Christmas play?  Actually, why beat around the bush, why is Islam PC protected but Christianity is not?  Because that is definitely the case even though as you point out both have unPC scriptural teachings.

I can only guess as to the parents reasons.  Perhaps they were tired of the public school using large amounts of time putting on a play every year celebrating a religious holiday.  Maybe they were tired of watching their kids feeling left out every year.  Maybe they hate Jesus, Dickens, Theater, or even puppies.  Who knows and who cares.  It is all moot.  The public school shouldnt be taking 20 friggin hours of school time to do a play celebrating a religious holiday.  No PC issue here at all.  Its a public school....you dont just get to do what you want.

And Islam PC being protected, with Christianity PC not, is simply not the case.  That is another opinion, likely based in personal anecdotal experience, or false narrative, and not in any actual, valid, broad and unbiased evidence.

Are opinions and anecdotal evidence and experiences ever worth discussing?  My opinions and assumptions are sometimes proven to be correct.  Maybe yours are too, that is all I have asked for here.  I am cool with your opinions and assumptions, are you not cool with mine?

BTW, here is why "evidence" in an internet forum discussion on the validity of political correctness is pointless: No mainstream media outlet would dare print an unPC view because of political correctness.  One can cite a bazillion other sources, like foreign media outlets, and conservative or religious news outlets, but the politically correct will just dismiss those as not being "credible".  So we are left with the mainstream sources who have been proven to not be credible either.  So, I repeat, don't bother asking for evidence because there is no acceptable, credible, actual, valid, broad, unbiased evidence of anything anymore.  Which is why I am on the side of "not to PC" in this discussion, I want us to get back to where we can trust information and trust one another.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:16:52 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #144 on: December 17, 2016, 11:13:58 PM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something? 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #145 on: December 17, 2016, 11:15:37 PM »

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Christianity, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the parents unwillingness to step up and do the play on private time, and the students are suffering for it.

Yes we should study religions in school.  And no, in this case, stopping a Dickens play is not equal to a Nazi book burning, because it is a play specifically done to celebrate a religious holiday, using publics school time and resources to produce.

Also, changed your post to illustrate another viewpoint.

Hey, the change you made is true, I won't argue that, but I stated that I wasn't offended by Islam.  Why do you suppose these parents were offended by a Christmas play?  Actually, why beat around the bush, why is Islam PC protected but Christianity is not?  Because that is definitely the case even though as you point out both have unPC scriptural teachings.

I can only guess as to the parents reasons.  Perhaps they were tired of the public school using large amounts of time putting on a play every year celebrating a religious holiday.  Maybe they were tired of watching their kids feeling left out every year.  Maybe they hate Jesus, Dickens, Theater, or even puppies.  Who knows and who cares.  It is all moot.  The public school shouldnt be taking 20 friggin hours of school time to do a play celebrating a religious holiday.  No PC issue here at all.  Its a public school....you dont just get to do what you want.

And Islam PC being protected, with Christianity PC not, is simply not the case.  That is another opinion, likely based in personal anecdotal experience, or false narrative, and not in any actual, valid, broad and unbiased evidence.

Are opinions and anecdotal evidence and experiences ever worth discussing?  Mine opinions and assumptions are sometimes proven to be correct.  Maybe yours are too, that is all I have asked for here.  I am cool with your opinions and assumptions, are you not cool with mine?

BTW, here is why "evidence" in an internet forum discussion on the validity of political correctness is pointless: No mainstream media outlet would dare print an unPC view because of political correctness.  One can cite a bazillion other sources, like foreign media outlets, and conservative or religious news outlets, but the politically correct will just dismiss those as not being "credible".  So we are left with the mainstream sources who have been proven to not be credible either.  So, I repeat, don't bother asking for evidence because there is no acceptable, credible, actual, valid, broad, unbiased evidence of anything anymore.  Which is why I am on the side of "not to PC" in this discussion, I want us to get back to where we can trust information and trust one another.

I can directly disagree with your assertions...not sure what being "cool" with them has to do with anything.  And I do not think evidence in this discussion is pointless.  I think it is very important, especially when you make broad generalized assumptions about peoples motives. Just like with the Dickens Play example, you claim it is a PC issue, when there is no evidence of it (not saying there isnt, but clearly the article had no basis to claim it), and there are many other very valid non PC explanations.  I get the impression that you just simply WANT to see the PC angle when you look at things.  I try to look at it more rationally and less emotionally, using evidence to form an opinion.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #146 on: December 17, 2016, 11:22:45 PM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:38:15 PM by eric42434224 »
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rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #147 on: December 17, 2016, 11:39:41 PM »

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Christianity, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the parents unwillingness to step up and do the play on private time, and the students are suffering for it.

Yes we should study religions in school.  And no, in this case, stopping a Dickens play is not equal to a Nazi book burning, because it is a play specifically done to celebrate a religious holiday, using publics school time and resources to produce.

Also, changed your post to illustrate another viewpoint.

Hey, the change you made is true, I won't argue that, but I stated that I wasn't offended by Islam.  Why do you suppose these parents were offended by a Christmas play?  Actually, why beat around the bush, why is Islam PC protected but Christianity is not?  Because that is definitely the case even though as you point out both have unPC scriptural teachings.

I can only guess as to the parents reasons.  Perhaps they were tired of the public school using large amounts of time putting on a play every year celebrating a religious holiday.  Maybe they were tired of watching their kids feeling left out every year.  Maybe they hate Jesus, Dickens, Theater, or even puppies.  Who knows and who cares.  It is all moot.  The public school shouldnt be taking 20 friggin hours of school time to do a play celebrating a religious holiday.  No PC issue here at all.  Its a public school....you dont just get to do what you want.

And Islam PC being protected, with Christianity PC not, is simply not the case.  That is another opinion, likely based in personal anecdotal experience, or false narrative, and not in any actual, valid, broad and unbiased evidence.

Are opinions and anecdotal evidence and experiences ever worth discussing?  Mine opinions and assumptions are sometimes proven to be correct.  Maybe yours are too, that is all I have asked for here.  I am cool with your opinions and assumptions, are you not cool with mine?

BTW, here is why "evidence" in an internet forum discussion on the validity of political correctness is pointless: No mainstream media outlet would dare print an unPC view because of political correctness.  One can cite a bazillion other sources, like foreign media outlets, and conservative or religious news outlets, but the politically correct will just dismiss those as not being "credible".  So we are left with the mainstream sources who have been proven to not be credible either.  So, I repeat, don't bother asking for evidence because there is no acceptable, credible, actual, valid, broad, unbiased evidence of anything anymore.  Which is why I am on the side of "not to PC" in this discussion, I want us to get back to where we can trust information and trust one another.

I can directly disagree with your assertions...not sure what being "cool" with them has to do with anything.  And I do not think evidence in this discussion is pointless.  I think it is very important, especially when you make broad generalized assumptions about peoples motives. Just like with the Dickens Play example, you claim it is a PC issue, when there is no evidence of it (not saying there isnt, but clearly the article had no basis to claim it), and there are many other very valid non PC explanations.  I get the impression that you just simply WANT to see the PC angle when you look at things.  I try to look at it more rationally and less emotionally, using evidence to form an opinion.

But as I said, there is no evidence (other than the article) to offer to our reasoning so we must fall back on our intuition, experience, emotions (gut feelings).  I am willing to admit the article I posted could be sensationalized nonsense and the school just didn't have the time or money to do a play.  Are you willing to admit the article describes a case where a few parents ruined a long standing tradition and good time for their own hang-ups with Christianity?  Be careful with rationality, it's just as susceptible to human error as your other faculties, and it will consume your humanity if you forget to lend credit to your emotions.

BTW, I absolutely love broad generalized assumptions.  They are what allowed me to predict Trump's win, and they are what have allowed me to live a happy productive successful life (so far).  I'll take my wits (or yours) over conclusions garnered from the "evidence" any day.  The margin of error will be roughly the same, but it has so much more meaning when the truth is obtained from within.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:45:21 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #148 on: December 17, 2016, 11:52:50 PM »

But as I said, there is no evidence (other than the article) to offer to our reasoning so we must fall back on our intuition, experience, emotions (gut feelings).  I am willing to admit the article I posted could be sensationalized nonsense and the school just didn't have the time or money to do a play.  Are you willing to admit the article describes a case where a few parents ruined a long standing tradition and good time for their own hang-ups with Christianity?  Be careful with rationality, it's just as susceptible to human error as your other faculties, and it will consume your humanity if you forget to lend credit to your emotions.

BTW, I absolutely love broad generalized assumptions.  They are what allowed me to predict Trump's win, and they are what have allowed me to live a happy productive successful life (so far).  I'll take my wits (or yours) over conclusions garnered from the "evidence" any day.  The margin of error will be roughly the same, but it has so much more meaning when the truth is obtained from within.

No, YOU must fall back on your gut.  I prefer not to jump to conclusions with xero evidence as they arent really needed, and can be way off base.  No need to paint yourself in a corner with emotional guesswork.

And NO, a few parents ruined NOTHING.  No one is stopping them from continuing their long standing "tradition" except the lazy parents that wont step up and do the play themselves.  No one is stopping them from doing the play on their own.  The complaining may simply have a "hang-up" with public schools using school time and resources for a religious celebration.  Like I said earlier, they may hate Jesus, Dickens, Plays, or puppies....doesnt matter.  We simply do not know, but to me its moot as the public school shouldnt be using its resources to put on a play celebrating a religious holiday.

And I never said I wholly rely on rationality or evidence to the exlclusion of emotion.  I prefer to use all resources at my disposal.  And Im pretty sure using rationality wont consume my humanity......did you seriously say that?  LOL

And you can live your life just how you like.  But I prefer to use wit AND evidence, as they arent mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:58:39 PM by eric42434224 »
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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #149 on: December 18, 2016, 12:00:21 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #150 on: December 18, 2016, 12:04:50 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Are you not reading what I write? 

No one gets catered to, or discriminated against, because there is no place for religious celebration or worship in the public school.....for ANY religion.  Simply no PC issue here, as much as you really want to see one.

I couldnt have been more clear.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #151 on: December 18, 2016, 12:06:42 AM »
But I prefer to use wit AND evidence, as they arent mutually exclusive.

In this case, there is no evidence other than the article, or maybe some other article on the subject out there, so am I to just think "inconclusive moving on..."?  No, I formed a conclusion from the evidence I presented and that conclusion is different than yours.  No biggie, but are you willing to at least accept that I may be correct in my ill-informed, broad sweeping assumption?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #152 on: December 18, 2016, 12:10:29 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Are you not reading what I write? 

No one gets catered to, or discriminated against, because there is no place for religious celebration or worship in the public school.....for ANY religion.  Simply no PC issue here, as much as you really want to see one.

I couldnt have been more clear.

A play production is not celebration or worship.  It is a play and producing it is a valuable experience.  I have seen no evidence that a play is worship or celebration.  I listen to King Diamond, I don't worship Satan.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #153 on: December 18, 2016, 12:10:39 AM »
But I prefer to use wit AND evidence, as they arent mutually exclusive.

In this case, there is no evidence other than the article, or maybe some other article on the subject out there, so am I to just think "inconclusive moving on..."?  No, I formed a conclusion from the evidence I presented and that conclusion is different than yours.  No biggie, but are you willing to at least accept that I may be correct in my ill-informed, broad sweeping assumption?

You simply guessed.  If you are guessing as to what the true motives of the complaining parents are, your guess may be right.  Never said you were wrong, and clearly stated so.  I stated that the motives were irrelevant to my point.  They may have hated Jesus or Charles Dickens....regardless the complaint was valid.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #154 on: December 18, 2016, 12:13:41 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Are you not reading what I write? 

No one gets catered to, or discriminated against, because there is no place for religious celebration or worship in the public school.....for ANY religion.  Simply no PC issue here, as much as you really want to see one.

I couldnt have been more clear.

And you're wrong then. If that's the case then they shouldn't be observing religious holidays. But they are. So putting on a religious display is well within their rights.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #155 on: December 18, 2016, 12:14:30 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Are you not reading what I write? 

No one gets catered to, or discriminated against, because there is no place for religious celebration or worship in the public school.....for ANY religion.  Simply no PC issue here, as much as you really want to see one.

I couldnt have been more clear.

A play production is not celebration or worship.  It is a play and producing it is a valuable experience.

But this play was a celebration of a religious holiday.  Arguing against that is being intellectually dishonest.  And if you arent being intellectually dishonest, then it invalidates your PC argument, as there would be no reason to be against it on a religous basis.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #156 on: December 18, 2016, 12:16:46 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Are you not reading what I write? 

No one gets catered to, or discriminated against, because there is no place for religious celebration or worship in the public school.....for ANY religion.  Simply no PC issue here, as much as you really want to see one.

I couldnt have been more clear.

And you're wrong then. If that's the case then they shouldn't be observing religious holidays. But they are. So putting on a religious display is well within their rights.

Observing a National Holiday (when school is CLOSED) is different than celebrating a religious holiday with activities during school hours and using school resources.  And you know it.
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rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #157 on: December 18, 2016, 12:18:55 AM »
... and we shouldnt use 20 school hours doing a religious play.

Hey Eric, I don't know if you have kids or not but would you consider the notion that 20 hours of play preparation and performance teaches kids a lot of valuable skills, experiences, and information?  Possibly more than 20 hours of academic study?

I live in an area where schools still have music, drama, and wildly funded sports programs.  My daughters participate in all and I have seen how enriching it is for them.  My oldest is getting ready to graduate and she has decided to go to music school and has already been accepted to THE top music college in the mid-atlantic.  Yeah, she did fine with academics and has a 4.6 GPA and all the honors and clubs and crap, but at the end of the day she just wants to be a solid musician and music teacher.  What would her life be if angry parents had shut down her music program because half the stuff they sing mentions god or something?

My kids go to a Catholic school. 

And yes I absolutely think that 20 hours of play prep and performance is valuable. But like I clearly stated earlier, in a PUBLIC school those hours need to be spent in a structured cirriculum drama class not doing the same play every year that celebrates a religious holiday.  Did you not read my post?  I bolded the important part so you can read it again.
I agree with everything you say here regarding enriching school programs, as long as it is not RELIGIOUS.  I have no idea why you are propping up this straw man argument that I am somehow not fully supportive of those types of programs.

And your daughters life would be fine, as her program wouldnt be shut down.  Pretty sure there are quite a few pieces of music, literature, theater, art, etc that dont mention "god" to choose from.   :\
Again to clarify the point.  Mentioning god or any religion in any work, or even studying specific religions is fine.  Celebrating and worshipping is completely different.  That is a pretty big distinction.  Also, remember, no one is stopping anyone from studying, celebrating, or worshipping anything on their own time.

I simply see no PC issue here at all.

Ahhhh, but this is a PC issue. You want the minority catered to because it's a public school and nobody should feel left out. That's too bad though. If a group of Muslims students want to put on some traditional Muslim concert/play, then they should be allowed to. Christians shouldn't be disallowed because no other group gets their play. You want everyone catered to or no one at all, which is just plain ridiculous. Almost 75% of the US is some form of Christianity while Muslims don't even get into the double digit percentage. Don't forget that one Satanic child. He should be allowed to have a Black Mass performed. Maybe that exceedingly small percentage of Hindus should be allowed to observe their time honored tradition of animal sacrifice. Hey, you can't leave anybody out right?  ;)

Are you not reading what I write? 

No one gets catered to, or discriminated against, because there is no place for religious celebration or worship in the public school.....for ANY religion.  Simply no PC issue here, as much as you really want to see one.

I couldnt have been more clear.

And you're wrong then. If that's the case then they shouldn't be observing religious holidays. But they are. So putting on a religious display is well within their rights.

Yeah, that is a solid argument.  Christmas is more of a cultural holiday than it is a religious event.  Many non-religious people have a tree, tell their kids the fairytale about Santa, watch a Christmas Carol, and exchange gifts without ever getting into the Jesus birthday aspect.  It's a national holiday, the play is a long tradition.  I think the school Principle is caught between a rock and a hard place and caved to PCism.  Sad.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #158 on: December 18, 2016, 12:22:55 AM »


Yom Kippur isn't a National Holiday.

Rosh Hashanah isn't a National Holiday.

Eid al-Adha isn't a National Holiday.

Yet those three were observed and public schools were closed, so try again. If you think twenty hours dedicated to a religious performance is a waste, how about those three religious holidays that were observed? How much education was lost on those days?

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #159 on: December 18, 2016, 12:28:45 AM »
But this play was a celebration of a religious holiday.  Arguing against that is being intellectually dishonest.  And if you arent being intellectually dishonest, then it invalidates your PC argument, as there would be no reason to be against it on a religous basis.

The bottom line:

The Supreme Court has ruled that public schools may not sponsor religious practices (Engel v. Vitale, 1962; Abington v. Schempp, 1963) but may teach about religion. While it has made no definitive ruling on religious holidays in the schools, the Supreme Court has let stand a lower federal court decision stating that recognition of holidays may be constitutional if the purpose is to provide secular instruction about religious traditions rather than to promote the particular religion involved (Florey v. Sioux Falls School District, 8th Cir., 1980).
 
Do religious holidays belong in the curriculum?
The study of religious holidays may be included in elementary and secondary curricula as opportunities for teaching about religions. Such study serves the academic goals of educating students about history and cultures as well as about the traditions of particular religions in a pluralistic society.

Given the supreme court's ruling on this, PC principal is violating the civil rights of the citizens in his district.  The parents should sue him into retirement, and replace him with a Principle who observes the law of the land and not the law of the PC police.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #160 on: December 18, 2016, 12:37:32 AM »
Amazing.  While I was typing I heard a Trump clip where he said "We are going to start saying Merry Christmas again."  Why would the President Elect need to say that if it hasn't been a PC issue?  Actually, it is ridiculous to contend that it isn't a PC issue.  It's one of THE paramount PC issues and that is common knowledge.  (Even dumb old Trump knows it is  :facepalm:)
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #161 on: December 18, 2016, 12:43:18 AM »
Yom Kippur isn't a National Holiday.

Rosh Hashanah isn't a National Holiday.

Eid al-Adha isn't a National Holiday.

Yet those three were observed and public schools were closed, so try again. If you think twenty hours dedicated to a religious performance is a waste, how about those three religious holidays that were observed? How much education was lost on those days?

Yes Prog Snob...they were CLOSED!  No school resources used!  EXACTLY!  And exactly ZERO education was lost on those days....do you seriously think the amount of days kids go to school is a zero sum game?  LOL.  They simply have other days the school is open.  What, are you going to rail against summer vacation too, and the 3 months of education lost?   :rollin
I never said the 20 hours were a waste....I said they shouldnt have been used for religous celebration.  The "National Holiday" angle is completely irrelevant to the point.

But this play was a celebration of a religious holiday.  Arguing against that is being intellectually dishonest.  And if you arent being intellectually dishonest, then it invalidates your PC argument, as there would be no reason to be against it on a religous basis.

The bottom line:

The Supreme Court has ruled that public schools may not sponsor religious practices (Engel v. Vitale, 1962; Abington v. Schempp, 1963) but may teach about religion. While it has made no definitive ruling on religious holidays in the schools, the Supreme Court has let stand a lower federal court decision stating that recognition of holidays may be constitutional if the purpose is to provide secular instruction about religious traditions rather than to promote the particular religion involved (Florey v. Sioux Falls School District, 8th Cir., 1980).
 
Do religious holidays belong in the curriculum?
The study of religious holidays may be included in elementary and secondary curricula as opportunities for teaching about religions. Such study serves the academic goals of educating students about history and cultures as well as about the traditions of particular religions in a pluralistic society.

Given the supreme court's ruling on this, PC principal is violating the civil rights of the citizens in his district.  The parents should sue him into retirement, and replace him with a Principle who observes the law of the land and not the law of the PC police.

LOL, not even close.  This was not a classroom study of various religious holiday from various religions.  It was a play being used to celebrate ONE particular religious holiday from ONE religion.  And I never saw where anyone had a RIGHT to study anything...just that they can.....Asserting a violation of rights would be laughed out of court.

Amazing.  While I was typing I heard a Trump clip where he said "We are going to start saying Merry Christmas again."  Why would the President Elect need to say that if it hasn't been a PC issue?  Actually, it is ridiculous to contend that it isn't a PC issue.  It's one of THE paramount PC issues and that is common knowledge.  (Even dumb old Trump knows it is  :facepalm:)

I can think of one reason....he is making it a PC issue, to pander to his base.  Logical, Rational.....AND feels right in my GUT!   :lol


--------------------------


I prefer to think that allowing them to use public school time and resources to put on a celebration of a religious holiday is simply wrong in principle.  Its just that the school admin closed their eyes to it because no one voiced any issue with it.  Once someone did (fully within their rights) they were forced to do the right thing.  Being forced to do the right principled thing is not caving to PCism.  It is simply doing the right thing.  No ones rights were taken away here, and the fact that no parents stepped up to do the play after school hours shows how little this really meant to them anyway.

Anyway, I think my position is abundantly clear.  And I am not saying you guys cant have your belief, opinion, or position.  I simply need to go to bed.  Taking my daughters to the Ballet tomorrow.
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rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #162 on: December 18, 2016, 12:51:37 AM »
Yom Kippur isn't a National Holiday.

Rosh Hashanah isn't a National Holiday.

Eid al-Adha isn't a National Holiday.

Yet those three were observed and public schools were closed, so try again. If you think twenty hours dedicated to a religious performance is a waste, how about those three religious holidays that were observed? How much education was lost on those days?

Yes Prog Snob...they were CLOSED!  No school resources used!  EXACTLY!  And exactly ZERO education was lost on those days....do you seriously think the amount of days kids go to school is a zero sum game?  LOL.  They simply have other days the school is open.  What, are you going to rail against summer vacation too, and the 3 months of education lost?   :rollin
I never said the 20 hours were a waste....I said they shouldnt have been used for religous celebration.  The "National Holiday" point is completely irrelevant to the point.

But this play was a celebration of a religious holiday.  Arguing against that is being intellectually dishonest.  And if you arent being intellectually dishonest, then it invalidates your PC argument, as there would be no reason to be against it on a religous basis.

The bottom line:

The Supreme Court has ruled that public schools may not sponsor religious practices (Engel v. Vitale, 1962; Abington v. Schempp, 1963) but may teach about religion. While it has made no definitive ruling on religious holidays in the schools, the Supreme Court has let stand a lower federal court decision stating that recognition of holidays may be constitutional if the purpose is to provide secular instruction about religious traditions rather than to promote the particular religion involved (Florey v. Sioux Falls School District, 8th Cir., 1980).
 
Do religious holidays belong in the curriculum?
The study of religious holidays may be included in elementary and secondary curricula as opportunities for teaching about religions. Such study serves the academic goals of educating students about history and cultures as well as about the traditions of particular religions in a pluralistic society.

Given the supreme court's ruling on this, PC principal is violating the civil rights of the citizens in his district.  The parents should sue him into retirement, and replace him with a Principle who observes the law of the land and not the law of the PC police.

LOL, not even close.  This was not a classroom study of various religious holiday from various religions.  It was a play being used to celebrate ONE particular religious holiday from ONE religion.  And I never saw where anyone had a RIGHT to study anything...just that they can.....Asserting a violation of rights would be laughed out of court.


--------------------------


I prefer to think that allowing them to use public school time and resources to put on a celebration of a religious holiday is simply wrong in principle.  Its just that they closed their eyes to it because no one voiced any issue with it.  Once someone did (fully within their rights) they were forced to do the right thing.  Being forced to do the right principled thing is not caving to PCism.  It is simply doing the right thing.  No ones rights were taken away here, and the fact that no parents stepped up to do the play after school hours shows how little this really meant to them anyway.

Anyway, I think my position is abundantly clear.  And I am not saying you guys cant have your belief, opinion, or position.  I simply need to go to bed.  Taking my daughters to the Ballet tomorrow.

Jesus is a figure in Islam and Judaism as well.  He just isn't worshiped by them as part of a trinity.  So before you "LOL, not even close" me when I present you "evidence" that the play is allowed by law, do better "rationalization" or just swallow your pride and concede that it has been an educational conversation for all.   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #163 on: December 18, 2016, 12:59:29 AM »
Are you stretching your argument sooo far as to assert that the Charles Dickens play, A Christmas Carol....a play that the parents say is done as a yearly tradition to celebrate the Christmas holiday....is actually also done to provide secular instruction about the religious traditions of Islam and Judaism, and therefor allowed by law?   :facepalm:
Wow...and even if I conceded that whopper, it still isnt a "right" to have it as part of the curriculum or as a school sponsored event.



OK, after this last exchange, it is definitely time for me to go to bed.



Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #164 on: December 18, 2016, 01:02:41 AM »
Are you stretching your argument sooo far as to assert that the Charles Dickens play, A Christmas Carol....a play that the parents say is done as a yearly tradition to celebrate the Christmas holiday....is actually also done to provide secular instruction about the religious traditions of Islam and Judaism?   :facepalm:

OK, it is definitely time for me to go to bed.

Okay.  Goodnight.  and... Merry Christmas.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #165 on: December 18, 2016, 01:37:24 AM »
Are you stretching your argument sooo far as to assert that the Charles Dickens play, A Christmas Carol....a play that the parents say is done as a yearly tradition to celebrate the Christmas holiday....is actually also done to provide secular instruction about the religious traditions of Islam and Judaism, and therefor allowed by law?

Summary of Facts:

1. Jesus and God are figures in multiple world religions - including Islam.
2. Christmas is historically based on both the story of the birth of Jesus Christ which is found in many religious texts, and/or several other cultural stories and traditions passed down for centuries.
3. The Christmas holiday is observed as a national holiday by the United States of America.
4. The Charles Dickens classic, A Christmas Carol is a secular play about poverty and materialism as it applies to celebrating the holiday in 19th century England.
5. The supreme court allows public schools to teach about religions, just not practice them.
6. Celebrating Christmas is not a religious act, it is a cultural tradition.  Many Christian sects do not participate in celebrating Christmas. 
7. Secular progressives have been attempting to eliminate Christmas traditions for years, the mainstream media often minimizes or outright denies the reports. 
8. Religious holidays are a common topic in political correctness debates.
9. Despite well documented social attacks on the holiday, like the story I posted about the school play, progressive propaganda dispensaries like rational wiki jokingly paint it as a right wing delusion (common leftist tactic of denial, displayed in this thread over and over):

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/War_on_Christmas

Good conversation.  If you think I have any of these facts wrong, please chime in.  I am not closed to the ideas presented by others here at all and I respect the facts and evidence, clearly.

It's late for me too.  I will leave you all with a present I got in a PM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYUEiRadpPs
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 02:16:42 AM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline KevShmev

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #166 on: December 18, 2016, 06:43:08 AM »
My head hurts after reading all of the posts that happened after I went to bed last night. :lol :facepalm:

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #167 on: December 18, 2016, 07:44:22 AM »
1,2,& 3 are facts never disputed that are not relevant to the discussion of that school incident.  So is the fact that Jesus was crucified, and that 2+2=4.
4 Fact: The play is also used by christians to celebrate their religious holiday...like it was in this case.
5 see 1, 2, & 3....it was being used as a yearly celebration of a religous holiday.  Im sure if the play was put on by a drama class in May there would be no issue.
6 Wrong...obviously MANY celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday.  Seriously?  So Christmas Mass at our Church is not a religous act?  LOL OK
7 Im sure SOME do...but that is the exception not the rule.  Some Christians try to eliminate some secular xmas traditions too.  So?
8 See 1,2,3, & 5.  That observation doesnt prove anything about the incident.
9 It is OPINION it was an attack on a holiday, as I showed, it could be about using school time and resources innappropriately, which I agreed with.  and my kids go to a Catholic School and we celebrate Christmas. 

War on Christmas?....yeah, rationalwiki seems to be pretty accurate.  I see FAR more "Jesus is the reason for the season" signs and bumperstickers than I see "Christmas is not religous and is only for gift giving" bumper stickers  (obviously we dont see those)  :lol


and remember, you said:

"evidence" in an internet forum discussion on the validity of political correctness is pointless:

why start now?   :biggrin:


**The interesting thing to ME about this whole story, and the point that speaks volumes, is that not one parent stepped up to do this after-school hours.  The other interesting point to me, if we are supposed to think this play is soley educational about religion (not celebratory), then why was it the only play done for decades?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 08:52:48 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #168 on: December 18, 2016, 09:59:48 AM »

It's late for me too.  I will leave you all with a present I got in a PM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYUEiRadpPs

I am not sure what the relevance is here.  What am I looking for?  That they are celebrating Christmas?  That all the comments are about Michelle Obamas gender?
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #169 on: December 18, 2016, 12:23:58 PM »

It's late for me too.  I will leave you all with a present I got in a PM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYUEiRadpPs

I am not sure what the relevance is here.  What am I looking for?  That they are celebrating Christmas?  That all the comments are about Michelle Obamas gender?

The irony of the The Christmas Carol being cancelled by a PC Principal when the FLOTUS is out at children's hospitals celebrating Christmas. 

Eric, your interpretation of the facts is cringe worthy.  I think you are missing that celebrating midnight mass at the Catholic church is a different celebration than the FLOTUS reading a secular story to children in front of a pagan Christmas tree (a symbol carried forward from pagan winter festivals).  The cancelled play would have been "celebrating" in the way the FLOTUS was, not in the way a Catholic mass does.  The law allows this. 

People who are "offended" by holidays or even religion itself are being selfish jerks.  I have never been offended by Ramadan or Chanukah, why the flying fuck would anyone be offended by Christmas?  Well, I mean, unless they actually believe in God and are simply batting for the other team.  An atheist shouldn't be offended, a Buddhist shouldn't be offended, Hindus shouldn't be offended...I guess that just leaves the inherently evil at heart.

One of the interesting aspects of this story is that it is quite possible the parents who complained about the production are religious fundamentalists who do not celebrate Christmas themselves, but generally those types of folks do not try to interfere with other people's fun.  It is generally secular progressives who can't be satisfied with just denying their own children fun and education, but have to kill it for everyone else too.  In my opinion that does not change the PC aspect of the principal's caving because he did not make his decision based on law and tradition, but on social pressure.  I also believe his excuses about production time were a lie.  Maybe I am wrong, I can accept that, but it looks to me like a case of PCism ruining Christmas for a bunch of kids wanting to put on a holiday ghost story play.         
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #170 on: December 18, 2016, 12:59:23 PM »
The irony of the The Christmas Carol being cancelled by a PC Principal when the FLOTUS is out at children's hospitals celebrating Christmas. 

Dont see the irony here as the situations are VERY different.

Eric, your interpretation of the facts is cringe worthy.  I think you are missing that celebrating midnight mass at the Catholic church is a different celebration than the FLOTUS reading a secular story to children in front of a pagan Christmas tree (a symbol carried forward from pagan winter festivals).  The cancelled play would have been "celebrating" in the way the FLOTUS was, not in the way a Catholic mass does.  The law allows this. 

My assessment was spot on.  The things you posted that actually were facts were irrelevant, and the opinions you posted werent facts.  Pretty simple.

And I never said a Catholic Christmas mass wasn't different than Obama reading a Christmas story to kids at a Hospital, or the play at the school.  They are different...especially where and how they are done.  Two are fine, one may not be IMO.  And no the law does not allow "celebrating" religious traditions in the school...it allows the cirriculum to include education and study on religions and their traditions.  None of the above are cirriculum based education and study of religions and their traditions.


People who are "offended" by holidays or even religion itself are being selfish jerks.  I have never been offended by Ramadan or Chanukah, why the flying fuck would anyone be offended by Christmas?  Well, I mean, unless they actually believe in God and are simply batting for the other team.  An atheist shouldn't be offended, a Buddhist shouldn't be offended, Hindus shouldn't be offended...I guess that just leaves the inherently evil at heart.

You have no standing to determine what is acceptable in regards to what offends anyone.  Yet here you are passing judgement on what people should or shouldnt be offended by.  Here you are being offended by other peoples feelings in a matter you dont even have a clear picture of what actually happended, calling them jerks and evil?  Wow.

One of the interesting aspects of this story is that it is quite possible the parents who complained about the production are religious fundamentalists who do not celebrate Christmas themselves, but generally those types of folks do not try to interfere with other people's fun.  It is generally secular progressives who can't be satisfied with just denying their own children fun and education, but have to kill it for everyone else too.  In my opinion that does not change the PC aspect of the principal's caving because he did not make his decision based on law and tradition, but on social pressure.  I also believe his excuses about production time were a lie.  Maybe I am wrong, I can accept that, but it looks to me like a case of PCism ruining Christmas for a bunch of kids wanting to put on a holiday ghost story play.       

1) All you are doing in your last paragraph is making generalizing assumptions....some may be offensive in their tone and accusations.
2) I dont think you can accept anything other than your pre set determination of what happened and why.
3) No one is stopping anyone from putting on a holiday ghost play.

Due to #1 & #2 I think I am done engaging you in this conversation.  Not saying you are 100% wrong on everything, or that you arent entitled to any opinion that doesnt directly fly in the face of facts.  Whay I am saying is that this discussion between you and me has passed the point of anything productive (if it ever even was) or entertaining.  Im sure someone else will be along to engage in the conversation.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 02:07:59 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #171 on: December 18, 2016, 02:16:08 PM »
No war on Christmas huh?:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5252769458001/?#sp=show-clips

In all seriousness, the holiday has had its detractors all throughout its history.  There is just no denying that detractors still exist and still attack the holiday and that this is often referred to the War on Christmas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversy

From that article:

"Some opponents have denounced the generic term "Holidays" and avoidance of using the term "Christmas" as being politically correct."

So not only is it recognized as a controversy, but it is also recognized as an issue of political correctness.  I can only conclude that sites like RationalWiki are part of the problem because they deny it exists and poke fun at those who claim it does exist.   




« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 07:15:44 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #172 on: December 19, 2016, 08:42:23 AM »
Happy Holidays, everyone!

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #173 on: December 19, 2016, 12:44:14 PM »
Just heard that a truck plowed into a crowd at a Christmas market in Berlin.  :-(

The media has been sketchy about calling it terror, thanks to PCism, but it is obviously a terror attack and ISIS just claimed responsibility for it.  Could it have been an accident and ISIS is just lying and taking credit?  Sure, but that doesn't matter.  What matters is there are people on the planet who take credit for such death and destruction.  The question isn't the details of the event, the question is why does humanity "tolerate" this behavior?  I have friends in Berlin, I care about them, I am outraged by these events.  Is anyone else? 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 07:09:00 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #174 on: December 19, 2016, 07:14:31 PM »
Just heard that a truck plowed into a crowd at a Christmas market in Berlin.  :-(

The media has been sketchy about calling it terror, thanks to PCism, but it is obviously a terror attack and ISIS just claimed responsibility for it.  Could it have been an accident and ISIS is just lying and taking credit?  Sure, but that doesn't matter.  What matters is there are people on the planet who take credit for such death and destruction.  The question isn't the details of the event, the question is why does humanity "tolerate" this behavior?  I have friends in Berlin, I care about them, I am outraged by these events.  Is anyone else?

Responsible people wait for evidence or confirmations to make determinations about something as serious as this....especially in widely observed media.

And what REALLY matters MOST is not people who "take credit", but who actually does the act and why.  And the question IS the details of the incident...not why humanity tolerates this....Humanity does not tolerate this.

Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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