Author Topic: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...  (Read 3053 times)

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #105 on: December 16, 2016, 09:17:12 AM »
1. You do not know for a fact if they are blackwashed or not.
You made the claim that they were blackwashing their search results, and there's no clear evidence of that other than your two data points, which are outnumbered by many. When you open an argument by making claims like that, the burden of proof is on you to support your claim. You haven't done that.

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2. I would like organizations like google to just return results.  When I query American Inventor I expect to see Les Paul on the list (and I am a Fender guy :metal).
Create your own search engine that filters alphabetically and see how useful it is.

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3. So then a white supremacist can never be credible?  What about a black supremacist?  Or how about a militant feminist?  I think they can all be credible and I respect their freedom of choice.  Do you?
To the bolded parts... short answer? No. Any racial or gender supremacy ideology has been totally discredited. 

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4. Clearly I have demonstrated much that maybe you just aren't willing to accept right now.  That is 100% okay too.  It is just conversation. 
I'll accept things you demonstrate when you get around to providing evidence.

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I am still waiting to hear how you feel about PCism.  Forget google searches or Aryan details related to my posts.  What do YOU think?  Have you ever been accused of something on PC grounds? 
I've occasionally been accused of being racist, sexist, and all other sorts of things. I've also worked with real live racists. I've also worked with minorities. I've worked with lesbian, gay and transgendered people. I get along with everyone. I don't see what your point is at all.

1. No No No just NO.  I am under no burden of proof here AND the search terms I submitted indeed produced a blackwashed list.  Other search terms are totally irrelevant.  Flip it around and imagine that Rosa Parks was told, "well you could move to the north if you want to sit up front".  That is what you are doing, you are changing the criteria in order to "prove" that the list is not intentionally blackwashed, but I assure you I can and have shown evidence that it is.  BOTH of our evidences are inconclusive - basically fake news - and THAT is what is important here.  That seemingly legit information from a seemingly legit source can set someone off on an errant PC tirade (like is happening right now this very minute by the thousands across college campuses).

2. Once again it has nothing to do with search dynamics.

3. Well, unless you are BLM, a Muslim, or a militant feminist, then the rhetoric is credible right?

4. Why do I have to provide you with any evidence?  You are not the judge of the validity of my statements, you are only the judge of whether they are valid to you

On your last point, is the reason you get along with everyone *because* of political correctness?  If so, then maybe it does have a positive purpose.  I've never needed it to show others respect, courtesy, professionalism, etc.  Aren't those character developments more important than simply toeing a line?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Skeever

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #106 on: December 16, 2016, 09:26:13 AM »
I'm not posting this to be argumentative, but to try to keep this on track. :)

I don't think it's harmless.  I think it gives credence to the very act of trying to put parameters around words.  Frankly, I think even the "retarded" argument was too far.   The fact of the matter is, we get to be offensive if we want, and we have to live with reasonable consequences of doing so.  I think that's another way that the PC movement has gone off the rails; we have come to this conclusion that bad things like bullying and coercion are all of a sudden "ok" because our motives are supposedly "good".
Interesting because I have the opposite perspective. It seems to me like it's the ANTI-PC movement that have gone off the rails. There's a point to be made, sure. But it's the anti-PC movement for me who can't handle "reasonable consequences". You go around using language that others find offensive at your own risk - fair enough. You make the choice to use language others find offense, and then have to deal with the consequences of others calling you out on it - or worse, your company firing you for violating the Code of Conduct you agreed to abide by. I've never in my life seen or heard of someone getting fired for a purely PC reason. I simply do not believe it happens as close to as often as some pretend.

What I see far more from the PC crowd is not suppression of speech, as the anti-PC crowd pretend, but instead resentment of criticism and/or private consequences for public speech. This is where we get into situations like Curt Schilling, who apparently thought he could continue his barrage of incendiary statements without ESPN ever stepping in and saying, "You know what? He doesn't represent the values he agreed to represent when he signed his contract with us. We're dropping him."

@7th, I see you, and the game is tired. Basically, we're at the point where UNLESS you can provide more evidence, I continue to find both the examples you provided and the conclusions that follow to be completely unwarranted. This is further illustrated by your latest post where you continue to question why you even need to provide evidence to begin with? I won't try to change your mind, just know you've done nothing at all to move the needle for me. I suspect I'm speaking for many here as well.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #107 on: December 16, 2016, 09:42:36 AM »
Well no, because I didn't say almost any of the stuff you just said I said.

I didn't say anything about passes, or good people or bad people. That was all you.

Nor did I say any of it was a disorder. I just said it things can be both a disorder and a crime if you act on them.

You implied those things.  Just own it.  You think pedophile thoughts do not make someone worthy of the label "pedophile", but someone with homophobic thoughts or racist thoughts is definitely worthy of those labels.

In other words, being a pedophile is now under PC protection.  A protected class socially, with NYT articles supporting it and the works.  Why then are people who want to have sex with children protected, but a person who fears other races or genders or sexual preferences not also protected?

 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #108 on: December 16, 2016, 09:47:16 AM »
Is this real

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2016, 09:53:49 AM »
I suspect I'm speaking for many here as well.

Groupthink.  The other nasty byproduct of political correctness.

BTW, your arguments were tangential and missed the point entirely.  The leftist tactic of crying for evidence during a conversation based on supposition and interpersonal discovery is inappropriate, rude, and intellectually dishonest.  Your needle isn't moved because it isn't movable on the topic (closed mindedness).  Your statement: "I simply do not believe it happens as close to as often as some pretend."  Betrays your ignorance of the topic.  People are fired, harassed, even killed over political correctness related circumstance on a daily basis.  People are also favored for jobs because of PCism, leaving better qualified people (of all demographics) unemployed.  I need not provide evidence of this, it is common knowledge in the USA and Europe.   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2016, 09:54:53 AM »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2016, 10:08:03 AM »
Well no, because I didn't say almost any of the stuff you just said I said.

I didn't say anything about passes, or good people or bad people. That was all you.

Nor did I say any of it was a disorder. I just said it things can be both a disorder and a crime if you act on them.

You implied those things.  Just own it.  You think pedophile thoughts do not make someone worthy of the label "pedophile", but someone with homophobic thoughts or racist thoughts is definitely worthy of those labels.

In other words, being a pedophile is now under PC protection.  A protected class socially, with NYT articles supporting it and the works.  Why then are people who want to have sex with children protected, but a person who fears other races or genders or sexual preferences not also protected?

Nope. Please do not put words or thoughts into my mouth. Pizza only.
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Offline Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2016, 10:17:01 AM »
Is this real

Is what real?

The fact that you're making assumptions about people and pushing your weird strawman-like scenarios onto them.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2016, 10:19:32 AM »
Well no, because I didn't say almost any of the stuff you just said I said.

I didn't say anything about passes, or good people or bad people. That was all you.

Nor did I say any of it was a disorder. I just said it things can be both a disorder and a crime if you act on them.

You implied those things.  Just own it.  You think pedophile thoughts do not make someone worthy of the label "pedophile", but someone with homophobic thoughts or racist thoughts is definitely worthy of those labels.

In other words, being a pedophile is now under PC protection.  A protected class socially, with NYT articles supporting it and the works.  Why then are people who want to have sex with children protected, but a person who fears other races or genders or sexual preferences not also protected?

Nope. Please do not put words or thoughts into my mouth. Pizza only.

This. 
There isn't room in a volatile discussion like this to assume implications in midst of a denial. 
Tone it down 7th

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2016, 11:34:32 AM »
Well no, because I didn't say almost any of the stuff you just said I said.

I didn't say anything about passes, or good people or bad people. That was all you.

Nor did I say any of it was a disorder. I just said it things can be both a disorder and a crime if you act on them.

You implied those things.  Just own it.  You think pedophile thoughts do not make someone worthy of the label "pedophile", but someone with homophobic thoughts or racist thoughts is definitely worthy of those labels.

In other words, being a pedophile is now under PC protection.  A protected class socially, with NYT articles supporting it and the works.  Why then are people who want to have sex with children protected, but a person who fears other races or genders or sexual preferences not also protected?

Nope. Please do not put words or thoughts into my mouth. Pizza only.

This. 
There isn't room in a volatile discussion like this to assume implications in midst of a denial. 
Tone it down 7th

Noted.  I didn't mean to push the issue.  Just seemed like an interesting double standard surfaced in a PC discussion and I was drilling in on it.  Go figure.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Stadler

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2016, 12:00:45 PM »
I'm not posting this to be argumentative, but to try to keep this on track. :)

I don't think it's harmless.  I think it gives credence to the very act of trying to put parameters around words.  Frankly, I think even the "retarded" argument was too far.   The fact of the matter is, we get to be offensive if we want, and we have to live with reasonable consequences of doing so.  I think that's another way that the PC movement has gone off the rails; we have come to this conclusion that bad things like bullying and coercion are all of a sudden "ok" because our motives are supposedly "good".
Interesting because I have the opposite perspective. It seems to me like it's the ANTI-PC movement that have gone off the rails. There's a point to be made, sure. But it's the anti-PC movement for me who can't handle "reasonable consequences". You go around using language that others find offensive at your own risk - fair enough. You make the choice to use language others find offense, and then have to deal with the consequences of others calling you out on it - or worse, your company firing you for violating the Code of Conduct you agreed to abide by. I've never in my life seen or heard of someone getting fired for a purely PC reason. I simply do not believe it happens as close to as often as some pretend.

What I see far more from the PC crowd is not suppression of speech, as the anti-PC crowd pretend, but instead resentment of criticism and/or private consequences for public speech. This is where we get into situations like Curt Schilling, who apparently thought he could continue his barrage of incendiary statements without ESPN ever stepping in and saying, "You know what? He doesn't represent the values he agreed to represent when he signed his contract with us. We're dropping him."


But what they're railing against is UNREASONABLE consequences.   Death threats against the FAMILY for the dentist killing that lion or tiger or liger or whatever.  CECIL! That's it. 

Or the shaming that goes along with not even questionable commentary.  Diane von Furstenburg actually had to APOLOGIZE for a tweet that was nothing but supportive of Caitlyn Jenner, because it wasn't worded right and wasn't supportive ENOUGH (she offered to provide dresses to Caitlyn or some shit and the response was "she's in the process of remaking her body; don't put pressure on her to look like a glamorous woman" or something like that). 

When the "consequences" are such that they chill that - and other - speech, they've gone too far.   

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2016, 01:21:34 PM »
Is this real

Is what real?

The fact that you're making assumptions about people and pushing your weird strawman-like scenarios onto them.

Let's go back through the posts and analyze what happened.  I was asked to cite a real example of political correctness.  I linked a NYT article which suggests that pedophilia is not a crime.  Then Adami responded thoughtfully:

"That article you posted....is bad. It's also an opinion piece and should be treated as such. It's not a new trend, it's an opinion.

Now, realistically, if pedophilia is considered a disorder, it's still a crime. Well, the attraction isn't a crime, but the action is.

It can be both a disorder and a crime, much like other disorders that are crimes if acted upon.

This also has nothing to do with being PC. I can assure you that it's not a popular trend to not consider pedophilia a crime.

PC should be measured by popular trend, not fringe opinions. "


Really, the poor assumption in this conversation is in Adami's statement that the NYT article has nothing to do with PC.  I then suggested that it is more mainstream than "fringe" and linked articles supporting that idea, which led me to a question in response to Adami's implication that the NYT article is just opinion and that having the thoughts does not equal a crime.  I detected a PC double standard emerging with the notion that the same leeway would not be given to a person with unPC thoughts like racism or homophobia.  When the question was answered confirming the double standard I made the mistake of saying "So you think..." which I agree I shouldn't have done.  I concluded from this conversation and from the NYT and other articles that pedophiles are becoming a protected class within the politically correct paradigm.  Something I have suspected would happen seems to have been happening for some time.

This makes sense to my world view where crimes against children and human trafficking are very tangible problems (I work in the security and defense sector and many of my clients spend huge resources fighting these problems).  So no, I wasn't making assumptions at all.  Actually I was asking more questions than anything else.  Ones that went unanswered like: Why are pedophiles a protected class, but racists or homophobes or misogynists or Islamophobes or people who say "Merry Christmas" are not protected?  I am aware that these types of questions are difficult, but we are going to have to ask difficult questions to better understand what political correctness really is these days.



 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 01:43:40 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2016, 01:29:54 PM »
More PC fun:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/rhcp-drummer%E2%80%99s-wife-may-face-school-ban-over-alleged-baio-attack/ar-AAlElXt?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

So here this woman is attacking Scott Baio over supporting Trump and yelling "p-ssy gr-bber" in his face at a children's school while being married to man in a band notorious for sexual assaults and every other kind of debauchery on the planet.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline XJDenton

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2016, 05:23:46 PM »
...what does that have to do with political correctness?

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2016, 05:55:13 PM »
...what does that have to do with political correctness?

It is politically incorrect to support Trump - to the point of social persecution.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2016, 07:46:34 PM »
Today I have been reflecting a bit on my personal interest in the PC phenomenon.  I think many of us can find pros/cons with PCism intellectually, but what I think I really want to know is how it makes people feel.  I basically get ill when I see it in practice.  When I read stories like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/30/us/black-privilege/

There is an episode of Star Trek where the Enterprise crew encounters a race of beings black on one side and white on the other.  When Kirk confronts them about their differences, they proceed to show disgust towards each other because one is black on the left and one is black on the right.  The absurdity of racial difference and political correctness is really obvious to me partially because of seeing that episode, and watching truly progressive entertainment like that as a kid (and being stupid enough to believe humanity must be ready to leave behind the old genetically based divisions of previous generations).  So when I see people behaving like the bi-colored alien dudes, it makes me feel like humanity is regressing and not progressing.  I don't know for a fact that it is regressing, some numbers look good, some look abysmal, but then no numbers are even trustworthy anymore.  Were they ever?  Anyway, instead of going back and forth about what we think we know about PCism, is it not more important how the phenomenon makes us feel in daily life?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Implode

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2016, 10:42:40 AM »
I don't know. The fact that more people are accepting of people of different ethnic backgrounds, sexualities, and genders now than ever makes me feel pretty good every day. Though it's nowhere near perfect, it's definitely been getting better.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2016, 11:20:39 AM »
I don't know. The fact that more people are accepting of people of different ethnic backgrounds, sexualities, and genders now than ever makes me feel pretty good every day. Though it's nowhere near perfect, it's definitely been getting better.

AGREED^

The irony of the PC / Anti PC argument is tragically hilarious.

-you cant say that about x, it makes x feel bad!
-you cant make be feel bad about saying that about x!

:lol
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 12:01:24 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2016, 02:47:56 PM »
I don't know. The fact that more people are accepting of people of different ethnic backgrounds, sexualities, and genders now than ever makes me feel pretty good every day. Though it's nowhere near perfect, it's definitely been getting better.

Difficult for me to respond because if you are feeling good about things who am I to question it?  So I am not arguing your view at all and I am not trying to convince you to change your more optimistic view.  Stop reading now if you aren't interested in a more pessimistic perspective. 

For me, I just can't feel good about it as you do because I have never seen more social unrest and poor race relations.  In my view race relations are at an all time low and still eroding.  Many people are not more accepting of different ethnic backgrounds unless it is politically correct to do so.  Are Muslim Arabs accepting of Israeli Jews?  How about college BLM activists being accepting of white cops?  Is Al Sharpton going to come protest when a white cop is shot?  From my vantage point all the acceptance and tolerance is framed in special interests creating a fragmented and antagonistic culture instead of a unified one. 

On sexuality, I'd like to think it is getting better, but that whole birthday cake thing reminds me that from a PC perspective it isn't really better for everyone.  My view may be a little bit skewed having lived and worked in San Francisco in an environment where gay (or anything really) was the norm and people just accepted it.  But I also don't feel it is right to force "acceptance" down anyone's throat if they have religious or even just personal objections and don't want to participate or contribute.  The whole "you're going to accept X or we are going destroy you." vibe is scarier to me than anything else in our culture right now.  Not because I am racist or homophobic or against diversity in any way, but because I don't want anyone telling me what or how to think.               
 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 06:20:39 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2016, 02:57:40 PM »
I have never seen more social unrest and poor race relations.  In my view race relations are at an all time low and still eroding.

Then I think you are simply ignorant of history, perhaps willingly.



People are not more accepting of different ethnic backgrounds unless it is politically correct to do so

There is no basis or evidence to make such baseless assumptions about other peoples motivations, unless it is to fit a false narrative.



but because I don't want anyone telling me what or how to think.

Yet you seem to want to do just that to the PC crowd. 


           
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:10:31 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2016, 03:23:21 PM »

There is no basis or evidence to make such baseless assumptions about other peoples motivations, unless it is to fit a false narrative.


These trite college-ready canned comebacks are tiresome, pointless, and add zero to the conversation.  Why?  Because there is no basis or evidence that the opposite of my view is true either.  We are *sharing* views not asserting a single view is "correct".  Why?  Because that would be indoctrination.  Basis and evidence are necessary to prove something.  I am not trying to prove anything.  I am just saying what I think/feel.  Why such a problem with that?     
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #126 on: December 17, 2016, 03:41:26 PM »

There is no basis or evidence to make such baseless assumptions about other peoples motivations, unless it is to fit a false narrative.


These trite college-ready canned comebacks are tiresome, pointless, and add zero to the conversation.  Why?  Because there is no basis or evidence that the opposite of my view is true either.  We are *sharing* views not asserting a single view is "correct".  Why?  Because that would be indoctrination.  Basis and evidence are necessary to prove something.  I am not trying to prove anything.  I am just saying what I think/feel.  Why such a problem with that?     

Seems like you have a problem with me sharing my views.  And my view is that, especially in a forum such as this, one should have some basis to make such a sweeping and generalizing assumption of peoples motives.  And I dont think it was a "trite college-ready canned comeback that is tiresome, pointless, and adds zero to the conversation".  That could be considered an insult.  I thought my comment was a perfectly reasonable response to yours.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 04:13:43 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #127 on: December 17, 2016, 04:52:16 PM »
Eric and 7th...knock off the assumptions about the others motives.

This thread got off to a bad start and is struggling to find redemption.

There is still hope...maybe

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2016, 06:34:56 PM »

There is no basis or evidence to make such baseless assumptions about other peoples motivations, unless it is to fit a false narrative.


These trite college-ready canned comebacks are tiresome, pointless, and add zero to the conversation.  Why?  Because there is no basis or evidence that the opposite of my view is true either.  We are *sharing* views not asserting a single view is "correct".  Why?  Because that would be indoctrination.  Basis and evidence are necessary to prove something.  I am not trying to prove anything.  I am just saying what I think/feel.  Why such a problem with that?     

Seems like you have a problem with me sharing my views.  And my view is that, especially in a forum such as this, one should have some basis to make such a sweeping and generalizing assumption of peoples motives.  And I dont think it was a "trite college-ready canned comeback that is tiresome, pointless, and adds zero to the conversation".  That could be considered an insult.  I thought my comment was a perfectly reasonable response to yours.

Okay, I changed the implied "People..." to "Many people..." so now that line reads:

"Many people are not more accepting of different ethnic backgrounds unless it is politically correct to do so."

There is no need for third party basis and evidence because I am not trying to convince or persuade anyone.  I'll be happy to post link after link of examples but I fear those examples would become the focus instead of the statement Implode made and my response to it.  That is why I said asking for "evidence" is tiresome and pointless to the conversation.  What you and I simply think and feel does not need any basis or evidence.  Once again, I am not asserting that anyone accept my view.  I am simply expressing it.  You agree with Impload, fine, is that any reason to call me ignorant of history, pushing a false narrative, or trying to tell others how to think?

   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2016, 06:50:45 PM »
So here is a situation where I say "to not PC":

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/17/scrooge-grade-school-cancels-performance-christmas-story.html

Any takers on the counter "to PC"? 

BTW, I love how the PC Principle blames it all on instructional time.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline KevShmev

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2016, 07:38:30 PM »
That reminds me of a story I saw someone post on FB the other day, about some college students who now think the song "White Christmas" is offensive. :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2016, 08:07:38 PM »
I think Al Sharpton was there.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2016, 08:15:20 PM »
So here is a situation where I say "to not PC":

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/17/scrooge-grade-school-cancels-performance-christmas-story.html

Any takers on the counter "to PC"? 

BTW, I love how the PC Principle blames it all on instructional time.

First, I would like to know the full story before I ever formed a "PC" opinion on the matter.  Too much of what happened is simply not known.

BUT, what stood out to me was all the complaining parents, making a big deal about this "tradition" that has been going on for decades.  Interesting.....are they now not allowed to put on a play with their children?  I personally think religion should be kept out of public school.....and this is not part of the curriculum. 

Want to do a play to Study the Arts at school?  Great, do it in drama class and make it non-religious....plenty of those to choose from.  This kind of stuff should be done on private time and private space.  No one is stopping them from doing just that.

There, problem solved.  Want to take 20 hours to produce and have your "tradition"?  Have at it....just not in a public school on public school time.

It will be interesting to see if the parents pony up their own time to do the play in another location.  If not, I guess it wasnt that important of a "tradition".
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 08:31:59 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline pogoowner

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2016, 08:41:38 PM »
If you read the principal's full statement, he specifically said no parents stepped up to establish any sort of after school production.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2016, 08:43:47 PM »
Probably because it wasn't worth the time to set up something that might get squashed because a parent or two decides to be offended over something completely non-offensive.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #135 on: December 17, 2016, 08:46:16 PM »
Probably because it wasn't worth the time to set up something that might get squashed because a parent or two decides to be offended over something completely non-offensive.

Who is going to complain about something you do on your own time, and how can it be squashed?

Either it wasnt much of a tradition, or they are just really lazy.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #136 on: December 17, 2016, 08:53:39 PM »
So here is a situation where I say "to not PC":

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/17/scrooge-grade-school-cancels-performance-christmas-story.html

Any takers on the counter "to PC"? 

BTW, I love how the PC Principle blames it all on instructional time.

First, I would like to know the full story before I ever formed an opinion on the matter.  Too much of what happened is simply not known.

BUT, what stood out to me was all the complaining parents, making a big deal about this "tradition" that has been going on for decades.  Interesting.....are they now not allowed to put on a play with their children?  I personally think religion should be kept out of public school.....and this is not part of the curriculum. 

Want to do a play?  Great, do it in drama class and make it non-religious....plenty of those to choose from.  This kind of stuff should be done on private time and private space.  No one is stopping them from doing just that.

There, problem solved.  Want to take 20 hours to produce and have your "tradition"?  Have at it....just not in a public school on public school time.

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Islam, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the PC parents hate and the students are suffering for it. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:00:50 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #137 on: December 17, 2016, 09:13:08 PM »
"God bless you all" - Ozzy Osbourne.

But the only parents boycotting Ozzy shows are fundamentalist Christians!  Sometimes it is just too easy to completely destroy the entire concept of political correctness.  I really don't understand why so many smart people cling so tightly to it.  I created this thread to explore the question should it be or not.  I have seen zero compelling arguments or testimonies for it to be, except manners, but we already have manners.  Step it up PCers or unPC is going to win like Trump.  :corn
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline eric42434224

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #138 on: December 17, 2016, 09:17:23 PM »

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Christianity, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the parents unwillingness to step up and do the play on private time, and the students are suffering for it.

Yes we should study religions in school.  And no, in this case, stopping a Dickens play is not equal to a Nazi book burning, because it is a play specifically done to celebrate a religious holiday, using publics school time and resources to produce.

Also, changed your post to illustrate another viewpoint.


"God bless you all" - Ozzy Osbourne.

But the only parents boycotting Ozzy shows are fundamentalist Christians!  Sometimes it is just too easy to completely destroy the entire concept of political correctness.  I really don't understand why so many smart people cling so tightly to it.  I created this thread to explore the question should it be or not.  I have seen zero compelling arguments or testimonies for it to be, except manners, but we already have manners.  Step it up PCers or unPC is going to win like Trump.  :corn

Umm, I think you are the only one playing your odd game, so might as well give yourself your trophy now.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:32:55 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #139 on: December 17, 2016, 09:52:59 PM »

I'm not sure Dickens or "god bless you all" qualifies as religion, but you make a solid point for sure.  Public school is not the place to worship a religion, but it could be a great place to learn about the world's religions as long as "religious studies" covered all varieties in an ethical and honest approach.  I would not complain if my kids were going to be in a religious play as long as it was age appropriate.  Really, I equate stopping a Dickens play to Nazi-style book burning.  To quote Carlin, "Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners."

What I find more interesting is the taking offense to religion in any form.  Christianity, for example, has hideously misogynistic, homophobic, and violent cultish teachings and some of its followers are barbarous murderers and slavers, but I am not offended by it.  It's still artful and beautiful in its rich history and should be studied as any other world religion should be studied.  The only things that offend me are suffering and hate.  In this case the parents unwillingness to step up and do the play on private time, and the students are suffering for it.

Yes we should study religions in school.  And no, in this case, stopping a Dickens play is not equal to a Nazi book burning, because it is a play specifically done to celebrate a religious holiday, using publics school time and resources to produce.

Also, changed your post to illustrate another viewpoint.

Hey, the change you made is true, I won't argue that, but I stated that I wasn't offended by Islam.  Why do you suppose these parents were offended by a Christmas play?  Actually, why beat around the bush, why is Islam PC protected but Christianity is not?  Because that is definitely the case even though as you point out both have unPC scriptural teachings.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin