Author Topic: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...  (Read 3089 times)

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Offline 7th

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To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« on: December 14, 2016, 07:58:14 PM »
Ok folks, I am starting a thread to discuss the pros and cons of political correctness.  I will start the conversation with an observation about systemic racism and how political correctness drives it.  Google is blackwashing some of its search results.  The only conclusion I can muster as to why they would do this is to apply political correctness in order to influence people's worldview.     

To see the evidence for yourself, first Google the terms American Inventors and you should see a horizontal list of images.  Note the distribution of inventors by race.  Instead of alphabetizing by name or ordering by chronology, Google appears to be intentionally stacking the list with minority inventors.  I had to scroll three times to find people like Henry Ford and the Wright Bros. both of which I would think *rank* higher than C.J. Walker in their status as "inventors".  So, it is a reasonable conclusion that Google is blackwashing history and that simple search is very solid evidence of it.  I believe this type of systemic racism is driven by political correctness winning out over logical correctness.  Logic would dictate that inventors would be listed by name or by chronological criteria.  Right? 

Want to have some more PC fun?  Next google the question: are shoes racist?  And read down a page or two.  Evidently certain shoes are indeed racist.  I had no idea that I could offend someone simply by wearing the wrong shoes. 

I see vast systemic socioeconomic problems with PCism, I think it is the cause of most of our social problems.  Many agree and many don't.  What do you think?       

"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline pogoowner

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2016, 08:11:40 PM »
If you just search for inventors, no such thing occurs. I don't know for sure, but I wonder if those results are occurring because searching for "american inventors" ends up picking up what would fall under "african american inventors," because it's a more common descriptor (many sites, being based in the U.S., probably see no need to specifically list inventors as American).

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2016, 08:16:40 PM »
Dammit, I thought this was a computer thread.   :sadpanda:  :blob:

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2016, 08:27:17 PM »
Yea, Pogoowner (or Progowner as I still read it) might be right. I googled African American Inventors and it was an almost identical list. I googled Untied States of America inventors and the list is pretty normal with Edison at the front.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2016, 08:32:57 PM »
If you just search for inventors, no such thing occurs. I don't know for sure, but I wonder if those results are occurring because searching for "american inventors" ends up picking up what would fall under "african american inventors," because it's a more common descriptor (many sites, being based in the U.S., probably see no need to specifically list inventors as American).

I thought of that possibility too, but that search returns the same list of images sans the white inventors.  I suppose it could be a software glitch, but I seriously doubt it. 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 08:36:56 PM »
I think you missed his point. He was saying that it's likely "American inventors" gives similar results to "African American Inventors" because of the search phrase similarity. Which is why, as I pointed out, you search for United States of America inventors, you get different results. Lots of white people.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2016, 08:38:53 PM »
Conspiracy theory - debunked. Moving along...

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2016, 08:45:18 PM »
Yea, Pogoowner (or Progowner as I still read it) might be right. I googled African American Inventors and it was an almost identical list. I googled Untied States of America inventors and the list is pretty normal with Edison at the front.

Yes, that list is pretty much the same but with Edison and Bell tacked onto the front.  Regardless, the list is still clearly stacked and blackwashed.  One can easily think of dozens of inventors not even on the list, yet they are listing people with marginal contributions by way of comparison.  Not that I am minimizing contributions at all, but c'mon, does C.J. Walker belong on a list of inventors that omits Howard Hughes?  Steve Wozniak?  Les Paul?

Don't get sidetracked by the edge cases that the evidence is accidental.  Even if it were, would it matter?  What if the tables were turned and the search results appeared to minimize/marginalize black contributions?  That would be just as bad.  It isn't about skin color, it is about the PCism that skews education which ultimately skews worldviews.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 08:47:54 PM »
Conspiracy theory - debunked. Moving along...

Political Correctness is not a conspiracy theory.  Add to the conversation or leave it for others, but don't be dismissive.  That's not cool.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin


Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 08:56:08 PM »
I think you missed his point. He was saying that it's likely "American inventors" gives similar results to "African American Inventors" because of the search phrase similarity. Which is why, as I pointed out, you search for United States of America inventors, you get different results. Lots of white people.

Who would search for United State of America Inventors?  But okay, whatever.  Having searched for American Inventors, USA Inventors, African American Inventors, etc...  The list is being derived form a pool and that pool is disproportionately weighted towards black inventors.  I have no issue with that because I do believe it is important to understand that contributions from minorities are every bit as important as any other contribution.  What I am asking is do we need to have the information provided to us through a pc filter?  Or should we simply be taught the lessons to enable us to make the determinations ourselves?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 08:57:20 PM »
Conspiracy theory - debunked. Moving along...

Political Correctness is not a conspiracy theory.  Add to the conversation or leave it for others, but don't be dismissive.  That's not cool.

You're talking about Google "blackwashing" history. Sounds like conspiracy garbage to me. That's my response to your premise. Your theory was disproven within the first few responses.

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 09:00:58 PM »
If you want to have an actual conversation about being PC, without the "all or nothing" presupposition, then that is a good conversation.

However, this whole "google is blackwashing history" thing is just nonsense and not helping the actual point you mentioned in the original title.

Plus...

I have no issue with that because I do believe it is important to understand that contributions from minorities are every bit as important as any other contribution.

Let's move on from it.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2016, 09:04:00 PM »

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM »
Let me know when there's enough white people on the list for you.

That is accusatory and uncalled for.  I'm not advocating adding more white people, I am suggesting that the over representation of black inventors is an indicator of systemic racism and political correctness while giants of innovation are omitted from the list.  Some of the people on that list are merely famous activists for crying out loud.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline jsbru

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2016, 09:11:32 PM »
ITT: "Victims" are victimized.
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Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2016, 09:12:40 PM »
Let me know when there's enough white people on the list for you.

That is accusatory and uncalled for.  I'm not advocating adding more white people,

My apologies then for the misunderstanding. Your repeated use of "black washing" threw me off.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2016, 09:22:07 PM »
Conspiracy theory - debunked. Moving along...

Political Correctness is not a conspiracy theory.  Add to the conversation or leave it for others, but don't be dismissive.  That's not cool.

You're talking about Google "blackwashing" history. Sounds like conspiracy garbage to me. That's my response to your premise. Your theory was disproven within the first few responses.

How can my theory be disproven when a search for American Inventors returns a list of mostly black people and many weren't even noted inventors?  I agree that it could be a glitch of search term semantics, but the point you are missing is that it doesn't matter.  What matters is somebody injected people into the list who don't belong there as much as others do.  Carver is on the list and it is now known that his inventions were mostly bunk, he tried treating TB with peanuts, and he took credit for peanut butter but even the Aztecs had freaking peanut butter.  So why is he near the top of all those searches but Les Paul isn't?  Google has been known to blackwash information.  For example, the Juno space mission doodle here:

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-sn-juno-jupiter-arrival-updates-google-honors-nasa-s-juno-team-with-a-1467697765-htmlstory.html

The Juno team were white.  Imagine if one of the more racially diverse teams at Nasa were depicted as all white?  Once again, I am questioning the political correctness thinking that goes into these decisions. 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2016, 09:24:18 PM »
That was explained above. Did you not read the responses?

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2016, 09:37:35 PM »
Let me know when there's enough white people on the list for you.

That is accusatory and uncalled for.  I'm not advocating adding more white people,

My apologies then for the misunderstanding. Your repeated use of "black washing" threw me off.

The term means to misrepresent diversity by injecting minorities into media productions.  Believe it or not, Google searches are technically media productions.

The reason for this thread is to discuss PCism, the pros and cons.  Yes, my pointing out that search is an example of PCism *on my part*, and I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise.  The point was to show how dangerous PCism is in that by applying special interests to everything in our world we set ourselves up to be a slave to those special interests.  I don't really care what the inventors search results are, but what about somebody who does?  How does it change their worldview?  Are real white supremacists fueled by a media universe that validates their fears and frustrations.  What must it be like to be Hispanic and have to hear Trump talk about building a wall, or to be Black and to hear BLM say that white people don't care about black lives.  All of these things are related to political correctness and our modern societal acceptance of it over logic and tradition.  That is where the conversation is.  It's not about whether Google is evil or not.  There is evidence on both sides of that argument. 

As for the search term thing, it is odd that one can indeed make the list's diversity change with various search terms.  But that doesn't eclipse the PC factor.  There are people on the list who don't really belong there and there are many who do belong but have been omitted.  Wiki simply has a alphabetical list and a timeline.  You'd think that is how Google would handle it too.  But, you are right, this thread is not about Google's blackwashing practices real or not.

Did anyone do the are shoes racist search?  I suppose that one is less volatile, but an effective indicator that our society is putting way too much into the value of political correctness.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:45:50 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline jsbru

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2016, 09:41:56 PM »
Quote
I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise.

That's not really a good way to start out trying to prove a theory, though.

You're supposed to start out by assuming it's false, and then after thoroughly and roundly criticizing it and testing it, declare it to be true when there is no other plausible option.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2016, 09:44:51 PM »
Google appears to be intentionally stacking the list with minority inventors.  So, it is a reasonable conclusion that Google is blackwashing history and that simple search is very solid evidence of it.

and I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise. 

Hmmmm

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2016, 09:49:33 PM »
Google appears to be intentionally stacking the list with minority inventors.  So, it is a reasonable conclusion that Google is blackwashing history and that simple search is very solid evidence of it.

and I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise. 

Hmmmm

It is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence I provided, is it not?  Now, before you respond "it was debunked!!!", remember that it doesn't matter.  The damage was done with the first search.  Google may not be intentionally blackwashing that list, but the list was blackwashed regardless even if just by manipulation of the search terms.  So, in certain circumstance someone could have been fired, someone could have been ostracized, or even killed because of the way images and words were arranged.  That is the core of the PC problem.  Get it now?

As for the validity of my conclusion, it does appear that their pool of inventors is indeed skewed btw.  But that isn't the point at all.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline Adami

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2016, 09:51:35 PM »
Did you imply that it's possible someone was killed because of the search results for American Inventors?

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2016, 09:53:49 PM »
Google appears to be intentionally stacking the list with minority inventors.  So, it is a reasonable conclusion that Google is blackwashing history and that simple search is very solid evidence of it.

and I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise. 

Hmmmm

It is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence I provided, is it not?  Now, before you respond "it was debunked!!!", remember that it doesn't matter.  The damage was done with the first search.  Google may not be intentionally blackwashing that list, but the list was blackwashed regardless even if just by manipulation of the search terms.  So, in certain circumstance someone could have been fired, someone could have been ostracized, or even killed because of the way images and words were arranged.  That is the core of the PC problem.  Get it now?

As for the validity of my conclusion, it does appear that their pool of inventors is indeed skewed btw.  But that isn't the point at all.


Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2016, 09:57:20 PM »
Quote
I have no way of knowing if Google intentionally blackwashes stuff (other than the miles of cases where they've been caught doing it) there are always explanations that suggest otherwise.

That's not really a good way to start out trying to prove a theory, though.

You're supposed to start out by assuming it's false, and then after thoroughly and roundly criticizing it and testing it, declare it to be true when there is no other plausible option.

Is that how people concluded Trump is a Nazi? 

Seriously, I provided cold hard evidence that Google (a piece of software) returns a list of mostly black inventors when you give it the input of American Inventors.  It's a reproducible, testable fact.  So, can you see how dangerous PCism is when combined with absolute thinking and assumptions?   
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2016, 10:00:51 PM »
Did you imply that it's possible someone was killed because of the search results for American Inventors?

No.  I implied the potential for people to be fired, persecuted, and killed because information was interpreted through a politically correct filter. 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2016, 10:10:24 PM »
I think you missed his point. He was saying that it's likely "American inventors" gives similar results to "African American Inventors" because of the search phrase similarity. Which is why, as I pointed out, you search for United States of America inventors, you get different results. Lots of white people.

BTW, if this is really the case, shouldn't Google suggest "Did you mean: African American Inventors"?  I also notice that clicking images is the same.  Pictures of Morgan Freeman and such.  Not often that we find google to be so damn racist.  Like those pesky racist shoes!
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2016, 10:22:22 PM »
Actually, google is hemispherewashing......as there are no Latin American, Central American, or South American inventors listed.

Hey, add on to your conspiracy with 'American quarterbacks'.  Mostly African Americans shown, but oddly, Willie Thrower, the first to play in the current NFL, is about 30th.  And for some reason, Trent Dilfer is among the 50 or so listed.  Meanwhile, Doug Flutie is the first one shown when entering 'Canadian quarterbacks'. 

Maybe google is simply just a bit effed up as it has always been.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Offline jsbru

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2016, 10:25:34 PM »
It's a reproducible, testable fact.

Reproducing a fact doesn't prove anything.  And facts can't be tested.  They just are--a priori.

The trick is to reproduce and test a theory.
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Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2016, 10:31:55 PM »
Actually, google is hemispherewashing......as there are no Latin American, Central American, or South American inventors listed.

Hey, add on to your conspiracy with 'American quarterbacks'.  Mostly African Americans shown, but oddly, Willie Thrower, the first to play in the current NFL, is about 30th.  And for some reason, Trent Dilfer is among the 50 or so listed.  Meanwhile, Doug Flutie is the first one shown when entering 'Canadian quarterbacks'. 

Maybe google is simply just a bit effed up as it has always been.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Incredible observation.  I also noted that the term "African American" itself is one born of PCism anyway.  Why do we have to have these labels and these preconceived expectations based on genetics?  Isn't that the ultimate form of "racism"? 

The search term "American Inventors" should return all known inventors of significance from the Americas.  Google needs to step up their PC game.  They are excluding so many other people in their searches.

OMG: the search American Musicians returns a mostly black list too.  I expected to see Bruce Springsteen at the head of that list. lol.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:46:50 PM by 7th »
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline pogoowner

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2016, 10:44:16 PM »
Just so you know, if you do an image search on Yahoo, it does the same thing. It's just an issue arising from your search terms.

Also, from Yahoo:


Offline Prog Snob

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2016, 10:51:44 PM »
 :rollin   

Now that's not PC.

Offline 7th

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2016, 10:52:16 PM »
Just so you know, if you do an image search on Yahoo, it does the same thing. It's just an issue arising from your search terms.

Shhhhhh....  I know, I am waiting to see how long it takes people to figure out that political correctness is all about language and nothing about the realities of the human condition.

But the search terms are fun.  Try American Actors.  One black person shows up, Denzel Washington, but search for American Musician and they are all black. 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline jsbru

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Re: To PC, or not to PC, that is the question...
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2016, 10:54:23 PM »
I'm starting to form a theory about how fake news works...
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