Will you do me a favour and ruthlessly critique my band??

[benrosemberg]

Hi guys,
 
Long story short, been in a band over a year now...we had the chance to open for Haken in Toronto back in September, and it was freakin' awesome.
 
To keep the story concise, we basically find ourselves now trying to figure out what to do, where to take the band (not geographically, but more conceptually), etc. 

A big part of that decision involves finding out what people outside of our known group of friends and contacts think about it.
 
This is where you come in 
 
A bunch of decisions seem to be up in the air, so we decided to go out there and get some feedback to address them and find out how best to move forth.
 
So, with that in mind. Would you be so kind as to check out some of our stuff and let me know your honest thoughts?
 
- 3 tunes up on bandcamp: https://astralbell.bandcamp.com/
 
- Video of one of those songs at our last show, this past Thursday: https://youtu.be/801wEdV2EZQ
 
Really, be as brutally honest here as possible. Offended feelings is better than wasted time, so I rather hear some harsh truths now rather than keep investing time in the project.
 
Please, really...let me have it; what do you think of the music? What do you think of the instrumentation? Guitar work? Drum work? Bass work? Keyboard work? Vocal work? What do you think of the production (it's demo quality, so not expecting too much there)? etc...
 
Seriously, the more you have to say (bad or good, doesn't matter), the better!
 
Thanks so much for your time, and I look forward to the feedback!
 
PS
Mods, if this post breaks rules, please go ahead and delete. Since this is more of a call for feedback than anything, I thought it would be ok. Please let me know otherwise.

[mikeyd23]

I'll check your stuff out and report back soon!

[Jester]

I will try to check it out later (this post is basically marking it for follow up).

I did do a 30-60 sec quick skip through the live YouTube video.  Guitarist has the best stage presence.  I really like female singers (not in lieu of male singers, but as an equal option that adds variety as the spice of life).  Personally, I prefer female vocalists that sing the equivalent to "standard" modern vocals.  So Lacuna Coil and the like.  I'm less into the Epica vocal style.  It is cool (variety again), but eventually it starts to wear on me.  Just my opinion.  If that's what the band and she prefers, I wouldn't go changing it to please anybody.

[Stadler]

I watched the live video, and the guitar player looks like a big tool.


No, I'm kidding.  I was really impressed for the most part, especially with the instrumentation, but - and Ben, hopefully you know me to come from an honest place - the vocals completely lose me.   I get it, I don't have to like the general style (though I don't), but I don't actually think she was really that good even given that.   It really sounded like someone doing a bad impression of Fish singing Grendel back in '82.  She is also faced with the same problem as countless other prog singers:  what to do when the rest of the band is wailing. 

maybe it was the sound.  I will be checking out the soundcloud stuff next. 

[Stadler]

I listened to Supreme Silence.

Same critique, in essense.  The vocals aren't a winner with me (though I really, REALLY dug the part at about 9:00 or so that went on and ended around the 10:00 minute mark).

I don't know.  It might be just taste, but again, I don't think so.  I'd like to think I could look past a style I don't like if it was done really well, but I just don't think it is.

Instrumentally, though, you guys are engaging, and interesting. I'd buy that song I heard, but for...

[PowerSlave]

I think that the vocalist has potential, but she needs some work. Music like this has to be difficult to write vocal melodies over, and it appears that she's struggling/straining in many sections. Much of this might be due to approach. Does she write the lyrics and melody lines for the songs? Or are they given to her to interpret by other members?

Musically/instrumentally, you guys are extremely talented. I liked everything that I heard from the instrumentalists. The writing in this aspect is very good! I'd very much like to hear more.

On a side note, I do think that you'd benefit from dialing in more mid-range to your guitar tone. I used to make the same mistake when I used to play. The "deeper EQ" sound is great on its own, but doesn't work well in a band environment. The guitar and bass end up walking on each other in the mix and make things sound muddy. You'd cut through the mix better with more mid's, and it would give each of the instruments more room to come through in the mix.

[Big Hath]

She is also faced with the same problem as countless other prog singers:  what to do when the rest of the band is wailing. 

just pull a JLB and leave 

[benrosemberg]

I'll check your stuff out and report back soon!

Awesome, thanks!

[benrosemberg]

I will try to check it out later (this post is basically marking it for follow up).

I did do a 30-60 sec quick skip through the live YouTube video.  Guitarist has the best stage presence.  I really like female singers (not in lieu of male singers, but as an equal option that adds variety as the spice of life).  Personally, I prefer female vocalists that sing the equivalent to "standard" modern vocals.  So Lacuna Coil and the like.  I'm less into the Epica vocal style.  It is cool (variety again), but eventually it starts to wear on me.  Just my opinion.  If that's what the band and she prefers, I wouldn't go changing it to please anybody.

Thanks so much for the feedback. I'm the guitarist, so I appreciate the comment I got another comment on another thread that they'd prefer if the singer was of the operatic/technical variety (Nightwish, et al)...to them she sounded more in the vein of a punk rock voice, like Paramore or something. Thanks for sharing your opinion though...we really do value it!

[sneakyblueberry]

I watched the video, sounds great, you guys are awesome players!  I'm not real fond of the vocals either tbh.  There were several times were she got a bit pitchy, and the more 'aggressive' vocal parts sounded weird, reminded me of the crazy cat lady from the simpsons.  Parts of her singing were nice tho.  Might benefit from a dual vocal set up.  Or some work on her vox? Or a better singer?  Cool that shes into it tho. 

EDIT: Singing is much better on the recording, fwiw. I actually quite like her there, apart from the aggressive thing again.  The first melody reminds me of maudlin of the Well a little.

She is also faced with the same problem as countless other prog singers:  what to do when the rest of the band is wailing. 

just pull a JLB and leave 

Big time, find somewhere side of stage for her to wait, then when she comes out its a nice reveal and she doesnt look goofy just swaying on the side of the stage

[benrosemberg]

I watched the live video, and the guitar player looks like a big tool.


No, I'm kidding.  I was really impressed for the most part, especially with the instrumentation, but - and Ben, hopefully you know me to come from an honest place - the vocals completely lose me.   I get it, I don't have to like the general style (though I don't), but I don't actually think she was really that good even given that.   It really sounded like someone doing a bad impression of Fish singing Grendel back in '82.  She is also faced with the same problem as countless other prog singers:  what to do when the rest of the band is wailing. 

maybe it was the sound.  I will be checking out the soundcloud stuff next.

......

I listened to Supreme Silence.

Same critique, in essense.  The vocals aren't a winner with me (though I really, REALLY dug the part at about 9:00 or so that went on and ended around the 10:00 minute mark).

I don't know.  It might be just taste, but again, I don't think so.  I'd like to think I could look past a style I don't like if it was done really well, but I just don't think it is.

Instrumentally, though, you guys are engaging, and interesting. I'd buy that song I heard, but for...

Hey Stadler, thanks so much for the input! I was hoping I'd head from you

I've heard mixed things re: the vocals, so that was one of the main reasons to put it out there; see how the prog folk feel about it in general. It's been as polarising to say the least!

Thanks for the honesty, though...you know it's much appreciated

[benrosemberg]

I think that the vocalist has potential, but she needs some work. Music like this has to be difficult to write vocal melodies over, and it appears that she's struggling/straining in many sections. Much of this might be due to approach. Does she write the lyrics and melody lines for the songs? Or are they given to her to interpret by other members?

Musically/instrumentally, you guys are extremely talented. I liked everything that I heard from the instrumentalists. The writing in this aspect is very good! I'd very much like to hear more.

On a side note, I do think that you'd benefit from dialing in more mid-range to your guitar tone. I used to make the same mistake when I used to play. The "deeper EQ" sound is great on its own, but doesn't work well in a band environment. The guitar and bass end up walking on each other in the mix and make things sound muddy. You'd cut through the mix better with more mid's, and it would give each of the instruments more room to come through in the mix.

Thanks so much for the comments!

It's good to hear honest thoughts on the vocals; the lyrics have all been written by her, and the melodic lines are a mix of some she came up with herself, and some the band helped to shape...usually to try to improve a previously existing version when the original didn't hit it out of the park.

Thanks so much for the compliments about music/instrumental - it's always motivating to hear that!

I've read the same comment about the guitar tone, and I agree with you guys; luckily, I've moved over to an AX8, and I'm running a Friedman amp model on it, so it's inherently more midrangey and comes out better in the mix. However, the youtube video was with the AX8 already...were you referring to live tone, or recorded tone?

[benrosemberg]

She is also faced with the same problem as countless other prog singers:  what to do when the rest of the band is wailing. 

just pull a JLB and leave 

We've debated this so much - I am totally for that approach

[benrosemberg]

I watched the video, sounds great, you guys are awesome players!  I'm not real fond of the vocals either tbh.  There were several times were she got a bit pitchy, and the more 'aggressive' vocal parts sounded weird, reminded me of the crazy cat lady from the simpsons.  Parts of her singing were nice tho.  Might benefit from a dual vocal set up.  Or some work on her vox? Or a better singer?  Cool that shes into it tho. 

EDIT: Singing is much better on the recording, fwiw. I actually quite like her there, apart from the aggressive thing again.  The first melody reminds me of maudlin of the Well a little.

Thanks so much for the comments! The vocals seem to be the thing that generate the most response, regardless of whether positive/negative. It's certainly interesting hearing all the perspectives out there. This is great stuff to help us going forward. Thanks again!

[PROGdrummer]

So I listened to the live and studio versions of Silence and Chrysalis. I really liked them actually. The vocals are a mixed bag however because throughout the course of the songs the vocals shift between really good moments and moments that are just plain suspect...
I didn't like her 'gritty voice' bits at first but it did grow on me actually after listening to it for almost 45 minutes~
I think live she just needs more confidence, it's okay for prog metal front(wo)men to be a bit quirky and flamboyant with their vocal deliveries and gestures.   (though understandably, singing in front of an audience is nerve-wracking by itself and I would never be able to do it even if I had the pipes of Russell Allen or Mike Patton so I'm not judging too hard).

Instrumentally I've got no real criticisms or advice. I like what I'm hearing and it is interesting. Keep it up, practice your scales and your paradiddles. Keep pushing yourselves technique wise and compositionally. 


EDIT: Here's an idea, maybe one of you dudes can step it up and take over some of the gruff vocal moments and let the bird sing more of the melodic, falsetto bits that she's usually strong at? Though that would make your sound less original....
It's all around good stuff.  I think more studio material is in order.

[PowerSlave]

I think that the vocalist has potential, but she needs some work. Music like this has to be difficult to write vocal melodies over, and it appears that she's struggling/straining in many sections. Much of this might be due to approach. Does she write the lyrics and melody lines for the songs? Or are they given to her to interpret by other members?

Musically/instrumentally, you guys are extremely talented. I liked everything that I heard from the instrumentalists. The writing in this aspect is very good! I'd very much like to hear more.

On a side note, I do think that you'd benefit from dialing in more mid-range to your guitar tone. I used to make the same mistake when I used to play. The "deeper EQ" sound is great on its own, but doesn't work well in a band environment. The guitar and bass end up walking on each other in the mix and make things sound muddy. You'd cut through the mix better with more mid's, and it would give each of the instruments more room to come through in the mix.

Thanks so much for the comments!

It's good to hear honest thoughts on the vocals; the lyrics have all been written by her, and the melodic lines are a mix of some she came up with herself, and some the band helped to shape...usually to try to improve a previously existing version when the original didn't hit it out of the park.

Thanks so much for the compliments about music/instrumental - it's always motivating to hear that!

I've read the same comment about the guitar tone, and I agree with you guys; luckily, I've moved over to an AX8, and I'm running a Friedman amp model on it, so it's inherently more midrangey and comes out better in the mix. However, the youtube video was with the AX8 already...were you referring to live tone, or recorded tone?

It's hard to judge some things like that from a live video. You seemed to be slightly low in the mix from the aspect of the mixing board on the live video, but that could be due to a lot of different factors. I know that what it sounds like when you're there in person, and the way that it sounds in video can be two very different things. So I was judging it more off of the studio recordings.

As far as the vocals go, I would consider simplifying some of the vocal lines/melodies. Even in the case of progressive music, delivery trumps complexity. I'll use the most recent Fates Warning album as a reference. Ray Alder isn't doing a ton of complex things, but his delivery on the album is absolutely amazing and it makes the songs much more accessible and enjoyable to listen to. I think that it gives the listener something to easily latch onto while there's so much more going on behind it. This allows each part to compliment each other, rather than fight for space in the listener's ear.

In other words, less is more in this instance.

[CDrice]

Musically it sounded pretty good to me. As for the vocals, I actually liked them overall. The more ''agressive'' vocals sounded a bit weird in the live video, but I think they sounded fine on the studio songs, especially in Chrysalis.

Anyway, good work to you guys and sorry for the lack of ruthlessness in my comment.

[Jester]

The vocals seem to be the thing that generate the most response, regardless of whether positive/negative.

That's pretty common as far as critiquing ANY band goes though.  So make sure she doesn't take the criticism too harshly.  Some of it is the recording technique.  And I completely second PowerSlave's advice to simplify the vocal melody lines.  That's advice for everybody and just a good rule of thumb.  Most of the most memorable melodies have an extremely condensed range.

[Nick]

What is a Haken?

Seriously though, that Toronto show was quite good, and it was nice talking to you and your band that day. Instrumentally I don't have much to critique, like the others, and vocally I'm on the fence. At times I like your vocalist, and at other times I'm not a fan.

For future reference a thread like this should go into the musicians forum. Since you already have some things going back and forth here I'll leave it for now, but will move it over at some point.

Also, I still think this is a pretty awesome picture:

[benrosemberg]

So I listened to the live and studio versions of Silence and Chrysalis. I really liked them actually. The vocals are a mixed bag however because throughout the course of the songs the vocals shift between really good moments and moments that are just plain suspect...
I didn't like her 'gritty voice' bits at first but it did grow on me actually after listening to it for almost 45 minutes~
I think live she just needs more confidence, it's okay for prog metal front(wo)men to be a bit quirky and flamboyant with their vocal deliveries and gestures.   (though understandably, singing in front of an audience is nerve-wracking by itself and I would never be able to do it even if I had the pipes of Russell Allen or Mike Patton so I'm not judging too hard).

Instrumentally I've got no real criticisms or advice. I like what I'm hearing and it is interesting. Keep it up, practice your scales and your paradiddles. Keep pushing yourselves technique wise and compositionally. 


EDIT: Here's an idea, maybe one of you dudes can step it up and take over some of the gruff vocal moments and let the bird sing more of the melodic, falsetto bits that she's usually strong at? Though that would make your sound less original....
It's all around good stuff.  I think more studio material is in order.

Thanks so much for the comments - we really appreciate it! Glad you liked it! A lot of what we're hearing is pretty similar - vocals need some work (I think with practice and maybe some re-interpretation to fit her style better, a lot of the issues would be addressed), and it's definitely something we're going to talk about and explore.

We have also been discussing having one of us step up to sing some of the heavier stuff, as you suggested. We don't really have good singing voices, but we're willing to give it a shot to see how it sounds alongside hers.

And yes, studio material for sure...we're working towards that for sure! Hopefully soon!

Thanks again!

[benrosemberg]

I think that the vocalist has potential, but she needs some work. Music like this has to be difficult to write vocal melodies over, and it appears that she's struggling/straining in many sections. Much of this might be due to approach. Does she write the lyrics and melody lines for the songs? Or are they given to her to interpret by other members?

Musically/instrumentally, you guys are extremely talented. I liked everything that I heard from the instrumentalists. The writing in this aspect is very good! I'd very much like to hear more.

On a side note, I do think that you'd benefit from dialing in more mid-range to your guitar tone. I used to make the same mistake when I used to play. The "deeper EQ" sound is great on its own, but doesn't work well in a band environment. The guitar and bass end up walking on each other in the mix and make things sound muddy. You'd cut through the mix better with more mid's, and it would give each of the instruments more room to come through in the mix.

Thanks so much for the comments!

It's good to hear honest thoughts on the vocals; the lyrics have all been written by her, and the melodic lines are a mix of some she came up with herself, and some the band helped to shape...usually to try to improve a previously existing version when the original didn't hit it out of the park.

Thanks so much for the compliments about music/instrumental - it's always motivating to hear that!

I've read the same comment about the guitar tone, and I agree with you guys; luckily, I've moved over to an AX8, and I'm running a Friedman amp model on it, so it's inherently more midrangey and comes out better in the mix. However, the youtube video was with the AX8 already...were you referring to live tone, or recorded tone?

It's hard to judge some things like that from a live video. You seemed to be slightly low in the mix from the aspect of the mixing board on the live video, but that could be due to a lot of different factors. I know that what it sounds like when you're there in person, and the way that it sounds in video can be two very different things. So I was judging it more off of the studio recordings.

As far as the vocals go, I would consider simplifying some of the vocal lines/melodies. Even in the case of progressive music, delivery trumps complexity. I'll use the most recent Fates Warning album as a reference. Ray Alder isn't doing a ton of complex things, but his delivery on the album is absolutely amazing and it makes the songs much more accessible and enjoyable to listen to. I think that it gives the listener something to easily latch onto while there's so much more going on behind it. This allows each part to compliment each other, rather than fight for space in the listener's ear.

In other words, less is more in this instance.

Ah, ok...gotcha! Yep, when we go around to properly recording this stuff I'll be recording with the AX8, so I have a lot more flexibility with the guitar tone, and will definitely keep in mind the comments...I've heard similar from others, as well!

Good point about delivery - we have been discussing that simplification, or playing to her strengths, would be the way to go. As for delivery, yea, I agree there's sections where delivery isn't where it needs to be, and the parts suffer for it. It's something we're trying to get right, but it's a process :/ hopefully we're able to get the delivery we have in our heads as we write the music!

And yea, I agree less is more. One of the reasons I love Haken is because they often will employ sections where each member is playing relatively simple parts, but the sum of the parts results in this beautiful complexity...but it's restrained, it's not all crazy competing for space. Something to keep in mind as we go forward...

[benrosemberg]

Musically it sounded pretty good to me. As for the vocals, I actually liked them overall. The more ''agressive'' vocals sounded a bit weird in the live video, but I think they sounded fine on the studio songs, especially in Chrysalis.

Anyway, good work to you guys and sorry for the lack of ruthlessness in my comment.

Thanks so much! Really appreciate it Glad you liked them!

[benrosemberg]

The vocals seem to be the thing that generate the most response, regardless of whether positive/negative.

That's pretty common as far as critiquing ANY band goes though.  So make sure she doesn't take the criticism too harshly.  Some of it is the recording technique.  And I completely second PowerSlave's advice to simplify the vocal melody lines.  That's advice for everybody and just a good rule of thumb.  Most of the most memorable melodies have an extremely condensed range.

Good stuff, thanks for the input! There's certain themes we're seeing over and over from people commenting, and that seems to be one. Going to be a good discussion with the band, that's for sure...but yea, a little worried that she may take it too personally, but at the same time, if we want to try to make something out of ourselves, then criticism is part of the game. Gotta learn to be able to take it without getting you down.

[benrosemberg]

What is a Haken?

Seriously though, that Toronto show was quite good, and it was nice talking to you and your band that day. Instrumentally I don't have much to critique, like the others, and vocally I'm on the fence. At times I like your vocalist, and at other times I'm not a fan.

For future reference a thread like this should go into the musicians forum. Since you already have some things going back and forth here I'll leave it for now, but will move it over at some point.

Also, I still think this is a pretty awesome picture:

Thanks Nick! Appreciate the kind words. I think playing to her strengths would minimize the times the sections/areas where there's aspects that people aren't really grabbing on to. A little confidence live would go a long way too, as others have suggested. But mainly, I think we need to hammer home that she needs to be practicing her singing as much as the rest of us practice our instrument; the voice is still an instrument that requires upkeep to be able to use precisely and well.

yea, I wasn't sure which thread to put it on...please feel free to move it over to the Musicians forum, at your discretion Sorry about that!

haha thanks! I really like that picture too...makes me look way taller than I am in person! haha

[mikeyd23]

So, I listened to the tracks on Bandcamp, and then hit up the YouTube video...

I'm going to basically just go off of the YouTube video because the "demoish" quality of the Bandcamp recordings was throwing me off. You, your drummer, and bass player all come across better watching you play, the quality of the demos were taking away from your skills a bit.

Love the band instrumentally, I think your guitar work is really cool. Both the drummer and the bass player are really good as well. Where was the keys player live? Were you guys looping the keys? That was one of the things (the keys) that stood out to me when I did listen to your demos, I loved what the keys were doing.

The one major comment I'd make instrumentally, is the comment I usually have when it comes to amateur prog-band (please don't take offense to me calling you amateur, I assume you don't do this for a living, that's all)...Transitions. The songs have some really good parts. But sometimes they tend to cluck from one part to the next and the arrangements of those parts can start to loose me a bit. I firmly think that's one of the hardest things when writing this type of music, you guys come up with all these great ideas, but the magic is in how they come together and interact with one another. So my major comment would be don't be afraid to put a song together and then go back and reassess how parts flow together.

Oh and your guitar solo like 11 or so minutes into the YouTube video was great.

Like others have mentioned the hurdle for me to become a fan that buys everything you guys would release in the future would be your vocalist. Personally, I tend to not connect with female vocalists as much as male vocalists, but that's totally just a personal preference thing for me. She definitely can sing, but in the context of a song, I feel like she nails one section, and then falls flat on the next, etc... This might be more about trying to write melodies more suited for her voice than an actual issue with her voice itself.

Is she involved in writing the vocal melodies? Maybe that is something (similar to flow and transitions like I mentioned before) that is worth taking a step back and reevaluating. Listen back to a track and reassess whether certain vocal melodies suit her voice or not. I know from experience with my own band, that we had a tendency to come up with something that worked and then leave it alone. Sometimes it would have benefited our songwriting to have more willingness to go back after we felt like a song was "done" and reevaluated things like the strength of melodies, or the arrangements.

Overall though, it sounds like good stuff! The JP influence is strong with you and that's great! Do you guys have plans to get into a studio and do a proper recording? I think for the style of music that you are playing, having something that sounds professional (read - not demoish) will be critical because you will probably attract listeners that are musicians or players, etc... who care about the quality of records.

[pogoowner]

I know you've gotten plenty of comments about the vocals already, but I'm gonna give you some more.

I don't think most people realize just how insanely difficult it is to write good vocal melodies over this style of music. That's why so many prog bands don't have well-liked singers. They don't just suck (well, a few might), they're just singing material that isn't easy for the listener to latch onto. Prog bands also have a bad tendency for the vocals to sound tacked on at the very end, rather than like they were a big part of the song's creation. Like others have said, simplifying when possible is a good idea. It's very hard to sell a line or convey emotion and draw the listener in when the vocal line is overly complex, as it often is when it's trying to compete with complex instrumental arrangements. I would look to poppier music for inspiration.

Also, letting her stay within her comfort zone is essential. If she's trying to sing outside of her range--high or low--the audience can tell regardless, but it also will kill her confidence and she'll do even worse.

All that said, I really liked most of what she did on Chrysalis. I liked when there were vocal harmonies. I think with a more professional recording process (a few more takes, better recording, less dry production, etc.), she would sound pretty damn good.

[Stadler]

Couple things on the vocals:

It depends on what you are hoping to achieve.  Good local band, with a dedicated following? Then tailor your sound to your singer.  World domination?  Not so much.

First, where would Iron Maiden be if they tailored their music to Paul Di'Anno? (Or worse, the clown before him, Dennis Wilcox?).

I think you have to write what you know and love and see if there is a fit for her style and strengths.

Second, we can debate the styles all day long; frankly, only YOU know what you're shooting for and whether you have achieved it.  If she's what you want, then go for it and ignore us assholes.  BUT:   it's one thing to sing in a style, it's another to sing on key, in pitch, and in time.   She DOES have skills, and she can sing, but she's got to tighten up the technical aspect of her performance, regardless of which direction you go in. 

Good luck man!   

[Jester]

Is your drummer on the demo?

[Areola]

Hey! I don't post much on the forums anymore, but I keep viewing most of the threads. When I saw this thread I wanted to give the song a listen because of how polarizing people were about the vocals. I liked the song, but it sounds a little too typical for prog metal. It's very clear that you are inspired by Dream Theater. And I don't know how long you've been playing, but I guess after a while you will find a sound that is unique to you. Maybe it's because most of the bands in prog metal doesn't excite me anymore, but I feel your music could've been better if it was shortened and the flow was better. And then came the vocals, and actually I think that the may be the best thing you got going to for you right now. Now I can hear that you can play really good and you're good at your instruments, but there isn't much spark in the music yet. Yes some of the vocals are odd, but I don't know, I liked the quirkness cominbed with the music. Made it more exciting. Some places where she's off but yeah it sound mostly good. The high parts in the beginning and with the chorus like thing at the end with more vocals over was really cool. Not sure what I think about the vocals in the middle, but with some tinkering it could be better. I also feel if she comes more into her own, and develops her vocals it will pretty cool. So yeah that's my opinion, it may be harsh, but you asked for it     

[benrosemberg]

So, I listened to the tracks on Bandcamp, and then hit up the YouTube video...

I'm going to basically just go off of the YouTube video because the "demoish" quality of the Bandcamp recordings was throwing me off. You, your drummer, and bass player all come across better watching you play, the quality of the demos were taking away from your skills a bit.

Love the band instrumentally, I think your guitar work is really cool. Both the drummer and the bass player are really good as well. Where was the keys player live? Were you guys looping the keys? That was one of the things (the keys) that stood out to me when I did listen to your demos, I loved what the keys were doing.

The one major comment I'd make instrumentally, is the comment I usually have when it comes to amateur prog-band (please don't take offense to me calling you amateur, I assume you don't do this for a living, that's all)...Transitions. The songs have some really good parts. But sometimes they tend to cluck from one part to the next and the arrangements of those parts can start to loose me a bit. I firmly think that's one of the hardest things when writing this type of music, you guys come up with all these great ideas, but the magic is in how they come together and interact with one another. So my major comment would be don't be afraid to put a song together and then go back and reassess how parts flow together.

Oh and your guitar solo like 11 or so minutes into the YouTube video was great.

Like others have mentioned the hurdle for me to become a fan that buys everything you guys would release in the future would be your vocalist. Personally, I tend to not connect with female vocalists as much as male vocalists, but that's totally just a personal preference thing for me. She definitely can sing, but in the context of a song, I feel like she nails one section, and then falls flat on the next, etc... This might be more about trying to write melodies more suited for her voice than an actual issue with her voice itself.

Is she involved in writing the vocal melodies? Maybe that is something (similar to flow and transitions like I mentioned before) that is worth taking a step back and reevaluating. Listen back to a track and reassess whether certain vocal melodies suit her voice or not. I know from experience with my own band, that we had a tendency to come up with something that worked and then leave it alone. Sometimes it would have benefited our songwriting to have more willingness to go back after we felt like a song was "done" and reevaluated things like the strength of melodies, or the arrangements.

Overall though, it sounds like good stuff! The JP influence is strong with you and that's great! Do you guys have plans to get into a studio and do a proper recording? I think for the style of music that you are playing, having something that sounds professional (read - not demoish) will be critical because you will probably attract listeners that are musicians or players, etc... who care about the quality of records.

Thanks man! Appreciate the comments!

Keys were piped in to the show - have had huge difficulty replacing they keyboardist that was with us when we started

Great comment on transitions and re-assessing...agree completely!

Re: the singer, I hear ya - seems to be a recurring theme She does write with us, though many of the melodies have been given to her, so to speak, to help her come up with something when we weren't loving her contributions. And we actually have gone back to several sections and taken a 2nd look - she really has not liked that we've done that, but growth is achieved by looking inward and self-criticising...parts just seemed to need some work after coming back to them with fresh ears after a while.

Thanks again for the comments!

[benrosemberg]

I know you've gotten plenty of comments about the vocals already, but I'm gonna give you some more.

I don't think most people realize just how insanely difficult it is to write good vocal melodies over this style of music. That's why so many prog bands don't have well-liked singers. They don't just suck (well, a few might), they're just singing material that isn't easy for the listener to latch onto. Prog bands also have a bad tendency for the vocals to sound tacked on at the very end, rather than like they were a big part of the song's creation. Like others have said, simplifying when possible is a good idea. It's very hard to sell a line or convey emotion and draw the listener in when the vocal line is overly complex, as it often is when it's trying to compete with complex instrumental arrangements. I would look to poppier music for inspiration.

Also, letting her stay within her comfort zone is essential. If she's trying to sing outside of her range--high or low--the audience can tell regardless, but it also will kill her confidence and she'll do even worse.

All that said, I really liked most of what she did on Chrysalis. I liked when there were vocal harmonies. I think with a more professional recording process (a few more takes, better recording, less dry production, etc.), she would sound pretty damn good.

Great thoughts all around - thanks! I'm curious to ask whether the tradeoff of letting her stay in her comfort zone is worth it? I mean, surely the vocals will improve, but the music may have to take a bit of a hit in its simplification. IYO, is the tradeoff worth it?

[benrosemberg]

Couple things on the vocals:

It depends on what you are hoping to achieve.  Good local band, with a dedicated following? Then tailor your sound to your singer.  World domination?  Not so much.

First, where would Iron Maiden be if they tailored their music to Paul Di'Anno? (Or worse, the clown before him, Dennis Wilcox?).

I think you have to write what you know and love and see if there is a fit for her style and strengths.

Second, we can debate the styles all day long; frankly, only YOU know what you're shooting for and whether you have achieved it.  If she's what you want, then go for it and ignore us assholes.  BUT:   it's one thing to sing in a style, it's another to sing on key, in pitch, and in time.   She DOES have skills, and she can sing, but she's got to tighten up the technical aspect of her performance, regardless of which direction you go in. 

Good luck man!

The industry is so vastly differently nowadays. Hell, I'd be happy just having Haken level of recognition - by that I mean, ends aren't quite met by the music itself, but you have a fanbase that makes it all worthwhile.

The one thing we're going to do is discuss with her the need to improv her role as a singer - our drummer has felt like she hasn't been prepping or working on her own to improve...not really a good thing when you want to take your band beyond local nights.

[benrosemberg]

Is your drummer on the demo?

Good ear - no, he's not. The demos have programmed drums. When we record properly we'll be doing his drums in studio.

[Adami]

You guys are good.

My main critique would be in the form of a question. What is your message? What is your voice?

The music is inoffensive, and that is both good and bad. It's nothing bad in the slightest, but it doesn't evoke any sort of reaction. It feels like standard prog ideas thrown together. If I were you guys, I'd focus right now on what makes you guys unique, what you're trying to add to the scene. I want to listen and think "wow these guys have something to say" as opposed to "Well these guys sure do love prog and want to do it too"

[benrosemberg]

Hey! I don't post much on the forums anymore, but I keep viewing most of the threads. When I saw this thread I wanted to give the song a listen because of how polarizing people were about the vocals. I liked the song, but it sounds a little too typical for prog metal. It's very clear that you are inspired by Dream Theater. And I don't know how long you've been playing, but I guess after a while you will find a sound that is unique to you. Maybe it's because most of the bands in prog metal doesn't excite me anymore, but I feel your music could've been better if it was shortened and the flow was better. And then came the vocals, and actually I think that the may be the best thing you got going to for you right now. Now I can hear that you can play really good and you're good at your instruments, but there isn't much spark in the music yet. Yes some of the vocals are odd, but I don't know, I liked the quirkness cominbed with the music. Made it more exciting. Some places where she's off but yeah it sound mostly good. The high parts in the beginning and with the chorus like thing at the end with more vocals over was really cool. Not sure what I think about the vocals in the middle, but with some tinkering it could be better. I also feel if she comes more into her own, and develops her vocals it will pretty cool. So yeah that's my opinion, it may be harsh, but you asked for it 

Hey, thanks for the opinion man! I appreciate it! I can certainly relate to the comments re: needing to be shorter, flow better, etc. I wonder that too (these songs have been written for long enough now that I consider what changes I would make before recording them in studio, and thus cementing them 'forever'). The Dream Theater influence is there, for sure - JP is probably the biggest influence I have in as far as prog guitar goes. I agree we do need to add out own to have our own sound - but I also think that'll naturally come with time as well. Thanks again!