Do you still LOVE Dream Theater??

[bosk1]

Blob, I'm not knocking your feelings about FII one bit.  But I think you are WAY understating the outside influence on that album's overall sound.  For starters, I feel you are underselling the differences between demos and final songs in many instances.  Differences that you categorize and "minor" do have an impact on the feel of the songs.  Those subtle differences combined with the rather substantial changes to a couple of other songs add up.  Second, keep in mind that the band wrote the songs they way they did in the first place because of the pressures from the label.  Third, there indeed is an overall difference in sound on FII that is not present on their other albums.  And while I can appreciate that that in and of itself may not be a "bad" thing, it is something that fans at the time noticed and a lot of fans didn't like it.  And while some in latter years have tried to write that off as people just falling in line with Portnoy's negative comments about the album, a good many people that didn't like FII didn't know anything about Portnoy's thoughts at the time they formed their opinions (myself included).  So whether or not you may like how FII turned out, the negative perception about the label's influence is very real and shouldn't be dismissed.

I've actually always defended that MP's opinions are not responsible for people's negative opinions of FII, despite personally loving the album. I find such dismissal of people's opinions patronizing. (I know you weren't accusing me of that, but still felt it needed to be said)
FII was a change in direction from the previous two albums, so it's naturally to be expected that many people did not enjoy it as much, as has also been the case on many later albums where there was a change in sound that leaned more towards one side of DT's elements. To me that doesn't reflect badly on the album, nor those later albums.

While I don't mean to understate the label pressure, I believe Prog Snob is way OVER-stating that influence on the music. Yes, it was relatively more commercial sounding, but it's still so firmly within the scope of DT's sound. We'll also have to agree to disagree on the differences from demo to final.

Fair enough, on all points.

The only thing I take issue with is the statement that FII has some lack of passion.  I have never felt that way, and I am definitely one of those who was disheartened with the album ever since it was released.

Yeah, I would agree with that.  And I should add that I love the album now, even though it still ranks relatively low in the DT discography.  But it took me awhile to overcome my dislike and to learn to appreciate it.  It was a "one song at a time" thing, where individual songs that I heard on live releases or that I saw for myself in a live setting, starting with LITS, NM, and ToT, won me over.

[BlobVanDam]

But it took me awhile to overcome my dislike and to learn to appreciate it.  It was a "one song at a time" thing, where individual songs that I heard on live releases or that I saw for myself in a live setting, starting with LITS, NM, and ToT, won me over.

It was the same for me. Live at Budokan is hugely responsible for getting me into the album.

[Bertielee]

But it took me awhile to overcome my dislike and to learn to appreciate it.  It was a "one song at a time" thing, where individual songs that I heard on live releases or that I saw for myself in a live setting, starting with LITS, NM, and ToT, won me over.

It was the same for me. Live at Budokan is hugely responsible for getting me into the album.

At first, I hated it with a passion. My loving the album came with seeing the band and the album live (for the first time for that matter). Definitely changed things  for me.

B.Lee

[noxon]

I'm the complete opposite. I -loved- FII when it came out, because it was the album that finally hooked my on DT music for good. While I'd heard most of their previous material before I'd heard FII (my father bought WDADU back in 89 or 90 or something) - it was with FII that it clicked for me. I was a metallica / pink floyd fanatic at the time, and FII was just the right entry for me. I saw them live for the first time that tour.

For that matter - I actually prefer the studio album the way it is, with the songs in that arrangement. I don't particularly care for the demo-versions, because they seem rough and go on tangents too much. Similar to how Pull Me Under sounds better without the section that was moved to Erotomania, Burning My Soul sounds better with the Hell's Kitchen seperated from the middle of it - the demo version just screeches to a halt. Lyrics to Take Away My Pain are more concise and tell the point without resorting to repetition on the studio version - while the demo version is just a bit too much on the "too literal/too personal" path (something that also lessened The Best Of Times later - both dealing with the same subject matter). And i prefer the You Not Me version too. And of the other tracks that were left off - i don't think there's any of them i would've rather have had on FII than what is on there.

I'll be much more likely to put on FII than almost any of the post 2000 albums by DT...

[YtseJam]

The only thing I take issue with is the statement that FII has some lack of passion.  I have never felt that way, and I am definitely one of those who was disheartened with the album ever since it was released.

If I were to accuse an album of being relatively passionless or going through the motions (which I'm not sure that I would), that album would definitely be BC&SL.

Totally agree with you there, Hef. BC&SL is clinical for me.

B.Lee

I love this album. One of my favorites

[Tony From Long Island]

Anyway, you forgot to mention You Not Me/You Or Me/01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01001110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01001101 01100101 was co-written by *cough* Desmond Child. That's not something that would have ever happened without external influence.

I actually like YOU NOT ME.      Plus, why would I want to denigrate someone who has written dozens of hits?     

Here are a few other Desmond Child songs I think are great:

"Hide Your Heart"   - KISS  (and Ace Frehley)
"Shame Shame Shame"  = RATT
"Heaven's On Fire"  - KISS
"Angel"  - Aerosmith
"Without Love"  - Bon Yovi
"Poison"  Alice Cooper

I'm sure there are plenty more.  This is just off the top of my head

[Bertielee]

I'll be much more likely to put on FII than almost any of the post 2000 albums by DT...

And so will I.

B.Lee

[gzarruk]

For that matter - I actually prefer the studio album the way it is, with the songs in that arrangement. I don't particularly care for the demo-versions, because they seem rough and go on tangents too much. Similar to how Pull Me Under sounds better without the section that was moved to Erotomania, Burning My Soul sounds better with the Hell's Kitchen seperated from the middle of it - the demo version just screeches to a halt. Lyrics to Take Away My Pain are more concise and tell the point without resorting to repetition on the studio version - while the demo version is just a bit too much on the "too literal/too personal" path (something that also lessened The Best Of Times later - both dealing with the same subject matter). And i prefer the You Not Me version too. And of the other tracks that were left off - i don't think there's any of them i would've rather have had on FII than what is on there.

I agree completely. The final versions of all the songs on FII work so much better, imo, than the originals. The only song from the demos I think they shouldn't have left is Raise The Knife. Oh man, I love that song.

[MirrorMask]

For that matter - I actually prefer the studio album the way it is, with the songs in that arrangement. I don't particularly care for the demo-versions, because they seem rough and go on tangents too much. Similar to how Pull Me Under sounds better without the section that was moved to Erotomania, Burning My Soul sounds better with the Hell's Kitchen seperated from the middle of it - the demo version just screeches to a halt. Lyrics to Take Away My Pain are more concise and tell the point without resorting to repetition on the studio version - while the demo version is just a bit too much on the "too literal/too personal" path (something that also lessened The Best Of Times later - both dealing with the same subject matter). And i prefer the You Not Me version too. And of the other tracks that were left off - i don't think there's any of them i would've rather have had on FII than what is on there.

I agree on al points, except the songs selection - I would have loved Raise the Knife or at the very least Speak to Me on the album. But I think too that all the changes to the songs were done for the better.

[bosk1]

Anyway, you forgot to mention You Not Me/You Or Me/01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01001110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01001101 01100101 was co-written by *cough* Desmond Child. That's not something that would have ever happened without external influence.

I actually like YOU NOT ME.      Plus, why would I want to denigrate someone who has written dozens of hits?     

Here are a few other Desmond Child songs I think are great:

"Hide Your Heart"   - KISS  (and Ace Frehley)
"Shame Shame Shame"  = RATT
"Heaven's On Fire"  - KISS
"Angel"  - Aerosmith
"Without Love"  - Bon Yovi
"Poison"  Alice Cooper

I'm sure there are plenty more.  This is just off the top of my head

Yeah, with the exception of "Poison," I don't really care for any of those.    But he has written/co-written more than his fair share of solid songs through the years, including Humanity, Hour 1, which I would argue is Scorpions' second best album behind only Love At First Sting (and maybe Blackout and/or Face the Heat some days, depending on my mood), so I do give him credit.  And I don't slag him for You Not Me.  While I do think his contributions to that song sucked, so did the material he had to work with, in my book.

[Samsara]

I think the outside influence on FII itself, where it resulted in tangible changes are obvious -- the changes to Burning My Soul (Hell's Kitchen), Take Away My Pain, You or Me, the demos show the changes, and that is pretty direct in regard to John sitting down with other people to make changes to the tunes.

What's harder to really grasp is how basic conversations between the band, and other people influenced how those songs shaped up in the tone and feel. It's hard for me to describe with words what I mean here, but essentially it comes down to the non-tangible of would John or whoever else wrote or played a certain part a certain way had the outside influences never talked to them to begin with? It's really  hard to tell.

I actually think Falling into Infinity has some of the more passionate and emotional performances on it from John that I've ever heard (or heard since).

I'm of the opinion DT has always  needed a producer they trusted to make suggestions to change things anyway...when left to their own devices, DT tends to take the long way...the really long way to get to a point. Whereas a nip and a tuck here and there to bring a song from 15 minutes to 11 minutes can make all the difference (case in point -- the solo sections of Endless Sacrifice -- way too much) between turning a good song into a great one, or a great one into filler because of length.

But DT's fans are a mixed bag, so obviously, for the majority, what DT does on their own is preferred. I'm just not with that group. FII, to my ear, was a step in the right direction. I didn't believe in co-writes with outside people, but I very much liked the fact that suggestions of others outside of the band were being incorporated to make the record a more listenable and accessible album. I don;t think art was sacrificed for accessibility (which is where I'd draw the line). I think it was a good balance. But most disagree, so...