Do you still LOVE Dream Theater??

[Bertielee]

On the other hand, I've seen hair bands with good musicianship also. Ratt comes to mind  Widowmaker also.      Al Pitrelli on guitar and the Mighty Joe Franco on drums.     He might be the most underrated drummer on earth.   His playing with the Good Rats was years ahead of it's time.

Widowmaker was badassery at its finest. Stand by for Pain is such agreat album! And yes, Dee is a good singer.

B.Lee

[Tony From Long Island]

On the other hand, I've seen hair bands with good musicianship also. Ratt comes to mind  Widowmaker also.      Al Pitrelli on guitar and the Mighty Joe Franco on drums.     He might be the most underrated drummer on earth.   His playing with the Good Rats was years ahead of it's time.

Widowmaker was badassery at its finest. Stand by for Pain is such agreat album! And yes, Dee is a good singer.

B.Lee

LOL     As is to be expected there are slight disagreements here.     Blood and Bullets is excellent!     I love just about every song.    But I thought Stand By For Pain was completely rushed.     I saw them live twice though.  Great great shows.       I think I saw them at Limelight and then the almighty ROXY!  in Huntington.  :-)   What a dump that was!

[Prog Snob]

I should point out that I should not be misinterpreted as saying "80's bands are better because looks and flash".  Just saying that image and look is a more important part of the equation than some would like to bring to the table sometimes.

I guess that depends on what is a band's goal. With a lot of those 80s bands it was definitely more image than anything. Sure most of them weren't the best musicians but they wrote catchy songs that caught a LOT of people's attentions, and many of them I still listen to from time to time. But half the time I didn't know what the guys looked like and it wouldn't have mattered if they look like Pretty Boy Floyd or Handsome Dick Manitoba. I get why you're opinion is what it is, because of your experience as a musician and the type of music you generally play. And that's awesome. Like I've said before, let me know when you're playing close by and I'll be there supporting you and buying some beers after.

We see things differently as far as image and whatnot but neither of us are wrong. I think we both see the other side as being just as valid. I get why image matters to certain people, just like you think there has to be something more than just the image itself.   

It always makes me laugh. Whenever I have a conversation with you about music, I always wind up digging out some 80s metal and listening to it for a couple of days. Maybe I'll listen to some TNT or Lillian Axe. Ever hear of Skin and Bones or American Angel or Xenon? Local bands that showed up too late to the party but wrote some great songs. I think I saw American Angel about a dozen times when they were playing all over the NJ club scene. Not only catchy songs but they were pretty good musicians, too. Their drummer was a monster...Eric Nilla was his name if I remember correctly. And Xenon, if you can find their song Night to Remember anywhere to listen to, or China Sky, you'll thank me.

Shit, you did it again...   

[LudwigVan]

The impact of Image happens on a subconscious level. Your sensible logical brain might say that image means nothing, but your deep-down self-consciousness will tell you otherwise. 

[LudwigVan]

I still love DT after 16 years. But I do find that I need to step back and take a break from their music in order to re- appreciate their awesomeness.

The only band that has crept up on DT in my overall band rankings is Opeth. They're practically tied.

[TAC]

On the other hand, I've seen hair bands with good musicianship also. Ratt comes to mind  Widowmaker also.      Al Pitrelli on guitar and the Mighty Joe Franco on drums.     He might be the most underrated drummer on earth.   His playing with the Good Rats was years ahead of it's time.

Widowmaker was badassery at its finest. Stand by for Pain is such agreat album! And yes, Dee is a good singer.

B.Lee

I have Stand By For Pain. 

I still love DT after 16 years. But I do find that I need to step back and take a break from their music in order to re- appreciate their awesomeness.

That's good to hear. They take the best of every other band and put it in a nice tidy package that I can love.

[Prog Snob]

The impact of Image happens on a subconscious level. Your sensible logical brain might say that image means nothing, but your deep-down self-consciousness will tell you otherwise.

No. I get the point you're trying to make but there's a difference between partaking in something which only necessitates sonic discretion and one that is pending on visual stimulation.

[LudwigVan]

On the other hand, I've seen hair bands with good musicianship also. Ratt comes to mind  Widowmaker also.      Al Pitrelli on guitar and the Mighty Joe Franco on drums.     He might be the most underrated drummer on earth.   His playing with the Good Rats was years ahead of it's time.

Widowmaker was badassery at its finest. Stand by for Pain is such agreat album! And yes, Dee is a good singer.

B.Lee

I have Stand By For Pain. 

I still love DT after 16 years. But I do find that I need to step back and take a break from their music in order to re- appreciate their awesomeness.

That's good to hear. They take the best of every other band and put it in a nice tidy package that I can love.

Honestly, as much as their recent output gets maligned relative to I&W, Awake and SFAM, I've come to appreciate the changes that have occurred to yield such high-quality and heartfelt music as they've done in more recent years. Sure it's a different feel and vibe to hear DT12, BCSL and TA, but they're every bit as good in their own unique, honest and sincere way.

[LudwigVan]

The impact of Image happens on a subconscious level. Your sensible logical brain might say that image means nothing, but your deep-down self-consciousness will tell you otherwise.

No. I get the point you're trying to make but there's a difference between partaking in something which only necessitates sonic discretion and one that is pending on visual stimulation.

Yeah. This is slippery road. But it's not that easy to say: listen to this band and its music , without seeing the album covers , band promos , music videos and whatnot and make a judgement on the music without all the extra cheese. Sure it can be done (especially when it comes to prog geeks ) , but it might not be so easy to do for the rest of us unwashed masses.

[Prog Snob]

The impact of Image happens on a subconscious level. Your sensible logical brain might say that image means nothing, but your deep-down self-consciousness will tell you otherwise.

No. I get the point you're trying to make but there's a difference between partaking in something which only necessitates sonic discretion and one that is pending on visual stimulation.

Yeah. This is slippery road. But it's not that easy to say: listen to this band and its music , without seeing the album covers , band promos , music videos and whatnot and make a judgement on the music without all the extra cheese. Sure it can be done (especially when it comes to prog geeks ) , but it might not be so easy to do for the rest of us unwashed masses.

Maybe that's the problem. Maybe they're too busy seeing instead of listening.

[TAC]

Honestly, as much as their recent output gets maligned relative to I&W, Awake and SFAM, I've come to appreciate the changes that have occurred to yield such high-quality and heartfelt music as they've done in more recent years. Sure it's a different feel and vibe to hear DT12, BCSL and TA, but they're every bit as good in their own unique, honest and sincere way.

As you know, there's no one else who's views on music that I respect and appreciate more than yours. And as usual, you are dead on. The Mangini era, while different for sure, has been excellent.

[Prog Snob]

Honestly, as much as their recent output gets maligned relative to I&W, Awake and SFAM, I've come to appreciate the changes that have occurred to yield such high-quality and heartfelt music as they've done in more recent years. Sure it's a different feel and vibe to hear DT12, BCSL and TA, but they're every bit as good in their own unique, honest and sincere way.

As you know, there's no one else who's views on music that I respect and appreciate more than yours. And as usual, you are dead on. The Mangini era, while different for sure, has been excellent.

I wholeheartedly concur with his observation as well. There is DT in all of those songs. Nothing about them is foreign or forced. Like I've always said, the only album that can ever be said was not DT from the heart is Falling Into Infinity.

[TAC]

Very true, but it does have its moments. I'd call it compromised.

[erwinrafael]

I wholeheartedly concur with his observation as well. There is DT in all of those songs. Nothing about them is foreign or forced. Like I've always said, the only album that can ever be said was not DT from the heart is Falling Into Infinity.

Parts of it, I suppose. But songs like Peruvian Skies, Trial of Tears, even Burning My Soul and the much maligned Anna Lee could fit in with how DT would sound in future albums. I would say that it was a step they had to take.

[TAC]

  I would say that it was a step they had to take.

Yeah, like pimples and braces.

[Prog Snob]

Very true, but it does have its moments. I'd call it compromised.

I agree. There are some great moments there. It's just missing something and that has never happened as far as their albums. Even WDADU was them playing their hearts out with their passion.

[TAC]

I hardly ever listen to WDADU, but I love WDADRu. Those songs are still great and for a group of kids to write those at that time is still amazing.

[Prog Snob]

I know. And three years later those kids put out the archetype of prog metal albums. 

[Adami]

I know. And three years later those kids put out the archetype of prog metal albums. 

I always wondered what it would be like to show a band at the beginning of their career albums from their future.

Like finding DT when they wrote WDADU and show them BCSL or something and see their reactions.

[LudwigVan]

I love Wdadu. And I love FII as well, but not in the same way that I love Wdadu.  FII was compromised (that's a great way of putting it Tim) by an outside hand, and its not as if you couldn't tell. You had that feeling as soon as the needle dropped on that first groove.

[Prog Snob]

I know. And three years later those kids put out the archetype of prog metal albums. 

I always wondered what it would be like to show a band at the beginning of their career albums from their future.

Like finding DT when they wrote WDADU and show them BCSL or something and see their reactions.

I'd be curious to see Charlie's reaction

[LudwigVan]

I know. And three years later those kids put out the archetype of prog metal albums. 

I always wondered what it would be like to show a band at the beginning of their career albums from their future.

Like finding DT when they wrote WDADU and show them BCSL or something and see their reactions.

they'd probably be like : Dafuq?!

[erwinrafael]

Very true, but it does have its moments. I'd call it compromised.

I agree. There are some great moments there. It's just missing something and that has never happened as far as their albums. Even WDADU was them playing their hearts out with their passion.

Well, if we're talking about passion, I find it least in BC&SL. That album for me always felt like DT equating prog with length and chops. It's like JP's message in Wither of a writer's block was real and they couldn't find much inspiration in their songs. Myung and JLB does not even remotely sound like they are trying to sound inspired.

For FII, you could indeed feel an outside hand, but boy do I feel passion when that rocking section of  Peruvian Skies kicked in. Same goes with Lines in the Sand. And Trial of Tears still has the most inspired exchange of solos in a DT song.

[Tony From Long Island]

I always wondered what it would be like to show a band at the beginning of their career albums from their future.

Like finding DT when they wrote WDADU and show them BCSL or something and see their reactions.
[/quote]

I'd be curious to see Charlie's reaction
[/quote]

He'd say  "Damn!  My voice got a lot better!  I'm glad I got this huge DT Tattoo on my arm!"

[Prog Snob]

Very true, but it does have its moments. I'd call it compromised.

I agree. There are some great moments there. It's just missing something and that has never happened as far as their albums. Even WDADU was them playing their hearts out with their passion.

Well, if we're talking about passion, I find it least in BC&SL. That album for me always felt like DT equating prog with length and chops. It's like JP's message in Wither of a writer's block was real and they couldn't find much inspiration in their songs. Myung and JLB does not even remotely sound like they are trying to sound inspired.

For FII, you could indeed feel an outside hand, but boy do I feel passion when that rocking section of  Peruvian Skies kicked in. Same goes with Lines in the Sand. And Trial of Tears still has the most inspired exchange of solos in a DT song.

There is undoubtedly some passion on FII, but generally speaking it's their least authentic release.

[BlobVanDam]

I hear a ton of passion on FII, much more so than recent releases imo (ADTOE is the most passionless DT album to me).
DT still wrote the music, and wrote stuff that was important to them at the time, and I feel the circumstances and pressure actually gave it a lot of passion and authenticity. They also had more time to write and refine the music, instead of writing on a strict schedule like a machine. And with less of the prog flash to fall back on, it focuses more on melody and feel, and is very dynamic.
The fact they had a producer make some changes to the album doesn't really affect it imo. The only song that sounds thoroughly compromised is YNM (which tbh was never a good song even in its original form), and maybe the changes TAMP, although I like the song regardless, and again not one of the better tracks. Every other change was either minor or clearly for the better, and no different to what a producer does on 95% of albums made, and the general style reflects where DT were at during that period with DS.

[Prog Snob]

You're just saying that because you like it more, with the lack of their "prog flash", and that more commercial sound. However, I think it's quite obvious that everything the band went through around that period, being close to breaking up because there was a line between those who accepted the changes and those who didn't, I'd say it wasn't fully what the band wanted. That hasn't happened with any other album. You say clearly for the better because you liked the change. You're not seeing it from an objective perspective. Clearly you've forgotten the drama from that period. Read the biography. This was not a period where the band was doing what was true to themselves. Pressure from the label to make the album marketable and bringing in outside songwriters to help them was obviously met with resistance from within.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm giving my opinion, you gave yours. Don't try to dismiss mine while passing yours off as somehow "objective" and correct.
I acknowledged the unique circumstances of the album and the pressure from the label to sell records, but as I said, DT were still the ones writing and performing the music, and the input from outside songwriters and producers was limited upon comparing the demos to the final album, regardless of my opinion of it. The style of the album is in line with the era and the lineup, just as IaW was, and Awake was. All different albums, but all DT.
 
JP has even stated in a recent interview that the label didn't have a big influence on the music. I think a lot of that perception comes from MP's frustrations, and not personally liking that different direction as much as the rest of the band, at least in retrospect.
https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album

[Prog Snob]

Considering MP was somewhat the heart of the band, I'd say his frustrations counted for a big chunk of that missing piece from FII. I'm not dismiss your opinion, just saying it's purely subjective, and I say that for a very valid and rational reason. I know what kind of music you mainly listen to so it doesn't surprise me that you are such a big fan of FII. With it's lack of "prog flash" and attempted commercial sound (in some aspects), it's just your type of album. Now that's not an insult, simply because you know it's true. However, trying to say it has the same heart and passion as Images and Words or even A Dramatic Turn of Events is just wrong.

I'm very surprised JP said that. Comparing the demos to what actually appeared on the album is not just a few minutes of album time.

[KevShmev]

FII and ADTOE both have a couple of bland/meh tunes that I can do without, but are mostly pretty great overall. 

[BlobVanDam]

Considering MP was somewhat the heart of the band, I'd say his frustrations counted for a big chunk of that missing piece from FII. I'm not dismiss your opinion, just saying it's purely subjective, and I say that for a very valid and rational reason. I know what kind of music you mainly listen to so it doesn't surprise me that you are such a big fan of FII. With it's lack of "prog flash" and attempted commercial sound (in some aspects), it's just your type of album. Now that's not an insult, simply because you know it's true. However, trying to say it has the same heart and passion as Images and Words or even A Dramatic Turn of Events is just wrong.

I'm very surprised JP said that. Comparing the demos to what actually appeared on the album is not just a few minutes of album time.

There is nothing wrong with saying FII has the same heart as IaW or ADTOE (not saying I'd make that case against IaW, although I wouldn't necessarily disagree with it either as I rank the albums 3 and 4). All of this is subjective, including your thoughts on the matter.
Personally I think ADTOE is their most sterile album, like they felt obligated to continue moving along without MP before even finding a new drummer, although I still like the majority of the album. But I'm not trying to convince anyone else to share that opinion or state that as fact, only pointing out that it's not wrong simply because you disagree with it.

If we're comparing FII demos to final, NM is the same. Peruvian Skies is the same. JLMB is the same. TOT is the same. Hollow Years is the same sans a pre-chorus. Anna Lee is the same sans a final verse. BMS had the instrumental taken out and extended into a new song, but the rest is the same, and the cut section appears basically the same in a new song. LITS is the same except for the small section removed towards the end. YNM is butchered. TAMP is quite different.
Two songs aside, it's trimming, which is a standard and benign contribution from any producer, assuming that it was all the producer's input, and assuming the band didn't fully agree with the changes. MP also wanted a double album with additional songs. But there were also songs written that were left off IaW and Awake, so that was nothing new either. Arguably none of the three albums are exactly as the band would have made without any outside influence, unlike all future albums.

[Prog Snob]

There is nothing wrong with saying FII has the same heart as IaW or ADTOE (not saying I'd make that case against IaW, although I wouldn't necessarily disagree with it either as I rank the albums 3 and 4). All of this is subjective, including your thoughts on the matter.
Personally I think ADTOE is their most sterile album, like they felt obligated to continue moving along without MP before even finding a new drummer, although I still like the majority of the album. But I'm not trying to convince anyone else to share that opinion or state that as fact, only pointing out that it's not wrong simply because you disagree with it.

If we're comparing FII demos to final, NM is the same. Peruvian Skies is the same. JLMB is the same. TOT is the same. Hollow Years is the same sans a pre-chorus. Anna Lee is the same sans a final verse. BMS had the instrumental taken out and extended into a new song, but the rest is the same, and the cut section appears basically the same in a new song. LITS is the same except for the small section removed towards the end. YNM is butchered. TAMP is quite different.
Two songs aside, it's trimming, which is a standard and benign contribution from any producer, assuming that it was all the producer's input, and assuming the band didn't fully agree with the changes. MP also wanted a double album with additional songs. But there were also songs written that were left off IaW and Awake, so that was nothing new either. Arguably none of the three albums are exactly as the band would have made without any outside influence, unlike all future albums.

What is subjective in my opinion is saying I don't like FII as much as many of the other albums. What isn't subjective is saying that there was something missing from that album, something that prevented the band from putting themselves completely into it.

Come on, don't say the trimming that was done is standard. You know very well what Kevin Shirley was attempting to do with the music by chopping the lengths of songs and sending the music (in some cases) in a different direction. Yes, MP wanted to make it two albums, and that probably would have happened if they were left to their own devices. As far as I know, Images & Words and Awake were never meant to be a double album. FII was though. MP wanted to put the original version of Metropolis 2 plus some other tracks on it. So, the way I see it is that there was a lot more being compromised on the bands part. Also, what MP said about the next album being the band left alone to make their music their way was definitely in the wake of the frustration surrounding FII.

I'm definitely not saying the album is bad or that anyone who likes it isn't a true fan of the band. That's just silly. However, there's no way I'm going to admit that the album was Dream Theater playing completely what they wanted. FII had more compromise than any of their other albums.

[BlobVanDam]

What is subjective in my opinion is saying I don't like FII as much as many of the other albums. What isn't subjective is saying that there was something missing from that album, something that prevented the band from putting themselves completely into it.

Ah no, that is also completely subjective and opinion, as is most of the rest of your post. I'd recommend Googling what subjective and objective mean, but I'm done here.

[Lethean]

Maybe it's both - maybe there's something missing from that album in terms of extra tracks and the original versions of some of the songs, but when it came time to record, they still gave everything they had.

Clearly there was turmoil in the band if they almost called it quits, but they could still have been trying to create the best record they could given the circumstances.

[KevShmev]

  FII had more compromise than any of their other albums.

And that was a good thing.