New Mike Mangini Interview

[rumborak]

Stewie, I guess we're just gonna have to differ, and judging from the video, I would say MM judges the situation similar to me. 7 years and 3 albums is an eternity for a band. There's only so many chances in life, and JR is 60 already.

BTW, different tack: I was riding the train earlier and listened to older MM material. Is there any album that he/we view as where he would have had full creative reign? My best guess would be Mullmuzzler, but even there I felt he played very "practical".

[Stewie]

Stewie, I guess we're just gonna have to differ, and judging from the video, I would say MM judges the situation similar to me. 7 years and 3 albums is an eternity for a band. There's only so many chances in life, and JR is 60 already.

BTW, different tack: I was riding the train earlier and listened to older MM material. Is there any album that he/we view as where he would have had full creative reign? My best guess would be Mullmuzzler, but even there I felt he played very "practical".

No worries man, I get where you're coming from. And, that's a good question. How much input did he have on Elements of Persuasion? Do we know?

[KevShmev]

Not to quibble, but where are we getting 7 years? Mangini officially joined the band in, what, late 2010/early 2011, so it's 6 years at most.  Call it semantics, but stretching it to 7 seems like a way of exaggerating his current tenure in the band to make it sound worse.

[bosk1]

Rumborak exaggerate to hammer home his point of view?  No way.

[erwinrafael]

BTW, different tack: I was riding the train earlier and listened to older MM material. Is there any album that he/we view as where he would have had full creative reign? My best guess would be Mullmuzzler, but even there I felt he played very "practical".

But he is practical. His approach to drumming is to bring out what the other instruments are doing, so most of his creativity is subtle and not calling atttention to itself.

Mullmuzzler's first album is not a good example. I would rather listen to Mullmuzzler's second album, LaBrie's Elements of Persuasion album, Steve Vai's Alive in an Ultra World album, and the song Egg Zooming with Mike Keneally

[rumborak]

Rumborak exaggerate to hammer home his point of view?  No way.

What happened to you, dude. You've become unbearable.

[erwinrafael]

Anyway, here's a March 2016 Mangini interview.

https://drummagazine.com/mike-mangini-writes-his-own-rules/

In it, he described his songwriting as "doing it while inhaling a plate of linguine vongole." 

[BlobVanDam]

Not to quibble, but where are we getting 7 years? Mangini officially joined the band in, what, late 2010/early 2011, so it's 6 years at most.  Call it semantics, but stretching it to 7 seems like a way of exaggerating his current tenure in the band to make it sound worse.

Maybe rumby is referring to how long it will be until recording the next album when MM will (hopefully) finally get the level of input he wants.
Or maybe rumby can't count. I don't know.

[bosk1]

Rumborak exaggerate to hammer home his point of view?  No way.

What happened to you, dude. You've become unbearable.

  I'm not the one who has been calling you out.

[hefdaddy42]

Anyway, here's a March 2016 Mangini interview.

https://drummagazine.com/mike-mangini-writes-his-own-rules/

In it, he described his songwriting as "doing it while inhaling a plate of linguine vongole." 

Cool that he got to play that Super Bowl afterparty.

[erwinrafael]

He's so happy sharing how to play a bit in Surrounded.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOFZurACHE

Loved it when he tried to sing the part. And the swing face!

What's amazing about that fill is that he did it only with his right hand because his left hand is still keeping the beat in the snare as in the record.

[Lethean]

The production clouds only the ghost notes in the hi-hat and rides (although these are quite noticeable in Surrender to Reason, The Looking Glass and A Life Left Behind). The other Mangini-isms are not muddied by the production. The most noticeable is his crisp bass drum playing, where he is very playful, compared to the snare where he plays simple downbeats. Outside DT, good examples of his bass drum style is in Venice Burning with Mulmuzzler, the whole Elements of Persuasion album of JLB, and Thanks for Nothing with Tribe of Judah. In the DT songs, best examples are in Bridges in the Sky and The Path that Divides, especially the "rap" part. Another very noticeable Mangini style is going up and down the scale in unison with the other instruments.

A lot of Mangini-isms, though, are subtle. It's his style to blend in the music. For example, hearing him play two different patterns at once takes some being used to. One of my favorites is at the start of OTBOA, where his bass and snare is doing the rhythm and bass guitar pattern, while the cymbals is doing the keyboard pattern. You won't notice it until you listen to the patterns separately. Then there's The Walking Shadow, where the crash is doing an extended meter in sync with the guitar while the snare is following Labrie's lines that is on a decreasing time signature. The one handed drum rolls only become apparent when you realize that you are still hearing a constant cymbal hit on the downbeat while there is a drum roll . Then there are the crazy things like doing two snare rolls at the same time to mimic a marching band in Astonishing.

So Mangini-isms are all over once you learn to hear them. For me, a good sampler would be OTBOA, LNF, BITS, STR, IT, A Life Left Behind, The Path that Divides and The Walking Shadow. You would get the Mangini style with these songs.

I'm not a drummer and MP was much easier for a non-drummer to take notice of, I think.  At least it was for me (plus the drums were so loud in the mix).  However I was blown away by MM maybe the 3rd or 4th time I saw him live (the first few shows I was coming to terms with MP not being there) and have appreciated him live ever since.  On the albums I admit that it's harder to notice what he's doing, and I haven't really tried that hard.  I love how detailed this post is and when I get a chance, I'm going to try to go through this and some of your other suggestions to give him a little more attention. So thanks for this.

[erwinrafael]

It's my pleasure to help more people appreciate Mangini more. A lot of times, his brilliance is easy to overlook. For example, in the last Youtube vid I shared, you might think it's just a simple fill going down the scale following JP's guitar. Until you focus on his left hand and notice that he is still keeping the beat while also doing the fill.

[rumborak]

He's so happy sharing how to play a bit in Surrounded.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOFZurACHE

Loved it when he tried to sing the part. And the swing face!

What's amazing about that fill is that he did it only with his right hand because his left hand is still keeping the beat in the snare as in the record.

I think it's incredibly cool how he labors over these parts.

Overall I wish he put less emphasis on following the other instruments, he does that a lot with the bass drum too. In this specific instance I don't think much is added by mirroring JP's run on the toms. In fact, there's a distinct danger that his toms will muddy up the guitar line because they operate in the same range. I feel a "proper" fill, I.e. one that breaks with the rhythm of the other instruments and "preempts" the new upcoming beat, would work so much better in that spot. I mean, that's why drummers do it that way, because it works so well.
This thing is a classic example for me of "skill-wise out of this world impressive, musically not (to me at least)".

[erwinrafael]

On one hand, you have many posts saying Mangini has a generic nondistinct style. But in posts where you go to the details, you actually wish that Mangini would play like other drummers.

Going up and down the scale, complementing what the other instruments are doing has alwaus been Mangini's signature orchestration style. It's a Terry Bozzio influence, orchestrating drum parts as if the drums are melodic not just rhythmic, instruments. Nuno Bettencourt loved him for it. Mike Keneally loved him for it. Steve Vai especially loved him for it.

[rumborak]

On one hand, you have many posts saying Mangini has a generic nondistinct style. But in posts where you go to the details, you actually wish that Mangini would play like other drummers.

That's a mischaracterization of my stance. He is very distinct in certain parts (e.g. his work on the cymbals), but those parts get buried in the music, and what remains to the listener are very straightforward bass+snare beats. This example is in the same vein; his tom run will likely go entirely unnoticed. It's odd since he *wants* to add his indelible mark, but then shies away from really going for it, e.g. doing an actual modification of that section.
And no, playing a fill isn't generic. That's like saying playing a power chord on the guitar is generic. It's all about what exactly you're playing.

[erwinrafael]

But his M.O. is to orchestrate to what the other instruments are doing. That's what he loves doing for so long:

A 1998 collab with Nuno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhqGPKfqvA

A 2000 performance with Steve Vai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qMFp2G9dE

A 1997 monster track with Mike Keneally that made him a drumming legend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA

And I disagree that his cymbals are what's distinct about him (unless you are referring to the shifting from left to right and vice versa thing). It has always been the way he plays the bass drums as a strong rhythm and how he orchestrates his drumming to the other instruments. He's not shying away from "going for it" because to him, what he is doing is what is musical to his ears. He was never a drum fill guy. He has always been a my-drum-will-highlight-the-other-instruments guy. If you are asking that he go for it and be a drum fill guy, you're basically asking for a different drummer.

[rumborak]

What you are saying is probably true, but it leaves me being a . I'm not a drumming aficionado, so I essentially need the tabasco sauce of drum seasoning, and a good sauce are drum fills. I would venture to guess that all the drummers I love I partially do because of the excellent stuff they do on the snare.

[erwinrafael]

You won't get much of that from him, as he usually uses the snare to maintain the underlying beat of songs. I think his approach was really affected by his experience with his first recorded studio work with Annihilator's Set The World On Fire album. He was then a young drummer full of energy but he had a hard time playing to a metronome and keeping a simple beat, so much so that he was hospitalized after the recording session. He learned to keep a steady beat after that.

[erwinrafael]

I'm not a drummer and MP was much easier for a non-drummer to take notice of, I think.  At least it was for me (plus the drums were so loud in the mix).  However I was blown away by MM maybe the 3rd or 4th time I saw him live (the first few shows I was coming to terms with MP not being there) and have appreciated him live ever since.  On the albums I admit that it's harder to notice what he's doing, and I haven't really tried that hard.  I love how detailed this post is and when I get a chance, I'm going to try to go through this and some of your other suggestions to give him a little more attention. So thanks for this.

You might also be interested in this thread on Mangini's pre-DT work that I started back in 2015.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.0

[Kotowboy]

Imagine if Mangini joined AC/DC as Phil Rudd's replacement and he made a 10 minute video explaining how he plays Back in Black

[rumborak]

You won't get much of that from him, as he usually uses the snare to maintain the underlying beat of songs.

Interestingly, that may somewhat explain his album snare sound. If he views the purpose of the snare not like most drummers (I.e. as a central piece of their drumming performance, thus requiring a lot of subtlety in the sound), he might not even object to the very compressed snare sound he has. If he uses it solely as a beat keeper, that kind of sound is actually desirable.

[Peace and Love]

Imagine if Mangini joined AC/DC as Phil Rudd's replacement and he made a 10 minute video explaining how he plays Back in Black

What's so funny? I'd love to watch that.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Imagine if Mangini joined AC/DC as Phil Rudd's replacement and he made a 10 minute video explaining how he plays Back in Black

What's so funny? I'd love to watch that.

Because it's a 10 minute video explaining how to play Back in Black.

[Kotowboy]

It's funny because he'd spend ten minutes explaining why he's playing a back beat in 4/4

[Adami]

It's funny because he'd spend ten minutes explaining why he's playing a back beat in 4/4

It's actually micropatterns of 5/16, 7/16, 3/16, and 1/16. With alternating accents with his left foot/right hand and right foot/left hand, choosing alternating hi hats and kick drums (he has 3 still) based on the chord progression being used at the moment.


But to the untrained ear, it sounds like 4/4.

[Kotowboy]

It may SOWND like bass Snehhh bass snehhh but In FACT , hehe, what im DOING is im playing 19/16 because I FCKING LOVE 19/16 ALRIGHT ??

I FUCKING LOVE 19/16 HOLY FUCK.

[rumborak]

It may SOWND like flap pang! flap pang! ...

FTFY

[rumborak]

On a more serious note, what's his obsession with not doing bounces? He seems to go to extreme ends, involving stiffening his back muscles, solely for the purpose of avoiding them, where (to my understanding) every drummer on the planet uses them.

[jakepriest]

On a more serious note, what's his obsession with not doing bounces? He seems to go to extreme ends, involving stiffening his back muscles, solely for the purpose of avoiding them, where (to my understanding) every drummer on the planet uses them.

Because he wants to have every single hit be at the same exact volume.
That's why a lot of people say he sounds like a drum machine I guess.

[erwinrafael]

On a more serious note, what's his obsession with not doing bounces? He seems to go to extreme ends, involving stiffening his back muscles, solely for the purpose of avoiding them, where (to my understanding) every drummer on the planet uses them.

He's not obssessrd with it. He's showing that when you do a fill that is based on speed, it's better to do full hits than bounces, which are better used for swing and jazz patterns.

[Kotowboy]

On one hand I respect his desire to be the most complex / technical drummer out there.

But on the other hand - it sounds robotic and un-natural.

It's the ever so slight mis-hits and push and pull that makes a song breathe.

When every single hit is smack bang on the grid - it sounds machine like and lifeless.

[rumborak]

It's the ever so slight mis-hits and push and pull that makes a song breathe.

When every single hit is smack bang on the grid - it sounds machine like and lifeless.

Interestingly, most MIDI sequencers have an option called "humanize" that puts a random element on a MIDI track, for the purpose of making it sound less sterile. Of course that also includes a slightly randomized velocity, I.e. volume of each hit.

[Kotowboy]

Yes I have it on EZDrummer. I always put it on full. Even when a snare hit is like a 64th note off the beat.

[rumborak]

On top of the random element there's of course also consistent shifts across notes. Hit every note a bit early and it sounds excited and pushy; hit each slightly late and it sounds sluggish. There's like 50 different Italian words in classical music to indicate the different intended vibes.