Author Topic: How do you view the popular vote?  (Read 11697 times)

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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #210 on: December 19, 2016, 06:20:06 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Actually in the USA all votes are equal.  A person in California who voted for Hillary got as much out of their vote as a New Yorker voting for Trump did.  The California vote didn't help Hillary win and the New York vote didn't help Trump win.  So it only seems like one side's votes carry more weight, but they don't when you break it down.  If Hillary had won, people in Oklahoma (all red) would be feeling like their vote didn't matter either.

That is 100% not correct.  Due to the electoral college, voters in some states are worth more than others.
Generally, Votes in states with higher populations are worth less per electoral vote than states with lower populations.

Nonsense.  The lower population states have lower electoral values so it evens out.

Cmon dude.  Watch the video TL posted.  It makes it very simple to understand.....it is simple math.  It is not up for debate, it is 100% fact, and isnt anything new.
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Offline TL

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #211 on: December 19, 2016, 06:25:18 PM »
Additionally, there are measures to make sure smaller states get representation, such as every state getting two senators regardless of population.

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #212 on: December 19, 2016, 06:26:39 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Actually in the USA all votes are equal.  A person in California who voted for Hillary got as much out of their vote as a New Yorker voting for Trump did.  The California vote didn't help Hillary win and the New York vote didn't help Trump win.  So it only seems like one side's votes carry more weight, but they don't when you break it down.  If Hillary had won, people in Oklahoma (all red) would be feeling like their vote didn't matter either.

That is 100% not correct.  Due to the electoral college, voters in some states are worth more than others.
Exactly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k

So 7th, if we're in agreement that a person's vote isn't more or less valid because of where they live or because of their political preference, why have a system that circumvents the will of a plurality of Americans?

Because a pure democracy ultimately leads to mob rule.  The video you linked approached pure democracy as if it is desirable.  Did you see the two wolves and a sheep example I posted above?  Pure democracies fail the second a majority want the wrong thing.

If the DNC wants to run the show again, they will need to *drop* political correctness, embrace middle America, and focus on progress over identity politics.  Since they are not likely to do this, they will continue to lose and frankly we'll probably have a dynasty of Trumps for year to come.       
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #213 on: December 19, 2016, 06:33:43 PM »
Cmon dude.  Watch the video TL posted.  It makes it very simple to understand.....it is simple math.  It is not up for debate, it is 100% fact, and isnt anything new.

The video is wrong from the get go.  It starts "In a fair democracy..." which there is no such thing.  It takes more than simple math to determine why the EC is fair and necessary.  A pure democracy is rarely fair which is why we don't do it.  100% fact, not up for debate.

A good example are the video's like and dislike numbers - a purely democratic indicator.  Likes are WAY greater than dislikes, but the video is dead wrong factually.  This is exactly how SO many people have been brainwashed by leftist conditioning.  The information sounds so good and correct, but when you break it down it's all wrong.
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #214 on: December 19, 2016, 06:34:54 PM »

Because a pure democracy ultimately leads to mob rule.  The video you linked approached pure democracy as if it is desirable.  Did you see the two wolves and a sheep example I posted above?  Pure democracies fail the second a majority want the wrong thing.

If the DNC wants to run the show again, they will need to *drop* political correctness, embrace middle America, and focus on progress over identity politics.  Since they are not likely to do this, they will continue to lose and frankly we'll probably have a dynasty of Trumps for year to come.     

Nice try avoiding the question.

The Electoral College is not a fair or appropriate method to address your concern of mob rule.
It creates a system where we do not get equal representation and weighting for our vote.
You dont want a true democracy?  Fine.  But the Electoral College does not work for a representative government either.
The votes are not equal.

So, do you take back your "nonsense" position, and agree that not all votes count equally?
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #215 on: December 19, 2016, 06:36:49 PM »
Cmon dude.  Watch the video TL posted.  It makes it very simple to understand.....it is simple math.  It is not up for debate, it is 100% fact, and isnt anything new.

The video is wrong from the get go.  It starts "In a fair democracy..." which there is no such thing.  It takes more than simple math to determine why the EC is fair and necessary.  A pure democracy is rarely fair which is why we don't do it.  100% fact, not up for debate.

A good example are the video's like and dislike numbers - a purely democratic indicator.  Likes are WAY greater than dislikes, but the video is dead wrong factually.  This is exactly how SO many people have been brainwashed by leftist conditioning.  The information sounds so good and correct, but when you break it down it's all wrong.

Red Herrings.   So many that I will eat fish for a week!  LOL

Simple question.  In the current electoral college system, are all votes weighted equally?

or

Point out where the video is wrong.



EDIT:  Just keep it simple.  Take the population of a state, divide it by the number of electoral votes.  No need for red herrings and straw men.  It is simple math my elementary school kids can do.  The vote in each state has a different value.  Plain math.  No need to inject any politics.  This has been an obvious fact for a LONG time, and is not in dispute.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 06:47:03 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #216 on: December 19, 2016, 06:44:57 PM »

Because a pure democracy ultimately leads to mob rule.  The video you linked approached pure democracy as if it is desirable.  Did you see the two wolves and a sheep example I posted above?  Pure democracies fail the second a majority want the wrong thing.

If the DNC wants to run the show again, they will need to *drop* political correctness, embrace middle America, and focus on progress over identity politics.  Since they are not likely to do this, they will continue to lose and frankly we'll probably have a dynasty of Trumps for year to come.     

Nice try avoiding the question.

The Electoral College is not a fair or appropriate method to address your concern of mob rule.
It creates a system where we do not get equal representation and weighting for our vote.
You dont want a true democracy?  Fine.  But the Electoral College does not work for a representative government either.
The votes are not equal.

So, do you take back your "nonsense" position, and agree that not all votes count equally?

I can't because I honestly don't see where my vote is any different than anyone else's.  I voted for Romney in 2012, in a previously blue state, he still lost.  I voted for Obama in 2008 in a previously red state and he won.  The value of my vote was the same in both elections.  Like I said, a California vote for Hillary carried the same exact weight as a Trump vote in Oklahoma.  Trump just happened to win more states, massively more county precincts, and walked away with the election because Hillary's strategy was stupid.  It had nothing to do with the "fairness" of our election process.  AND, if she had won, I'd be pissed, sure, but I wouldn't be calling for a popular vote.  I may have when I was younger and didn't know better and would have fallen for info like that video TL posted.  Sorry, my call "nonsense" stands.
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #217 on: December 19, 2016, 06:49:09 PM »
Wrong.  Its 3rd grade math.  I know you are smarter than this. 

Try to take emotion and partisan politics out of your head for a second, and just look at it rationall and logically.
This has absolutely zero to do with Hillary or Trump, and I am not disputing anything about the election.  Just stating facts.

IV. Does my vote count?

Yes, your vote counts. Some people have complained since 2000 that if the winner of the popular vote doesn't become president, their vote doesn't really count, so why vote at all? But every vote does count; it just counts in a more complicated way. When you vote for president, remember that you're voting in a state election, not a national election. So your vote counts just as much as anyone else's in your state but it may count more or less than that of someone living in another state!

What's a vote worth?
Why does the actual weight of your vote vary by state? Remember that every state gets a number of electors that is the total of all of its representatives in Congress, both in the House of Representatives and in the Senate. The House of Representatives is divided approximately by population big states have the most representatives, small states have the fewest but every state has exactly two senators, regardless of size. That means that while big states have more electors than small states, they don't have as many more as they would based on population alone.


http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/lessons/davidwalbert7232004-02/electoralcollege.html
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 07:00:28 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #218 on: December 19, 2016, 07:01:04 PM »
Cmon dude.  Watch the video TL posted.  It makes it very simple to understand.....it is simple math.  It is not up for debate, it is 100% fact, and isnt anything new.

The video is wrong from the get go.  It starts "In a fair democracy..." which there is no such thing.  It takes more than simple math to determine why the EC is fair and necessary.  A pure democracy is rarely fair which is why we don't do it.  100% fact, not up for debate.

A good example are the video's like and dislike numbers - a purely democratic indicator.  Likes are WAY greater than dislikes, but the video is dead wrong factually.  This is exactly how SO many people have been brainwashed by leftist conditioning.  The information sounds so good and correct, but when you break it down it's all wrong.

Red Herrings.   So many that I will eat fish for a week!  LOL

Simple question.  In the current electoral college system, are all votes weighted equally?

or

Point out where the video is wrong.



EDIT:  Just keep it simple.  Take the population of a state, divide it by the number of electoral votes.  No need for red herrings and straw men.  It is simple math my elementary school kids can do.  The vote in each state has a different value.  Plain math.  No need to inject any politics.  This has been an obvious fact for a LONG time, and is not in dispute.

A vote may have a different weight in a *popular vote* but we do not use a popular vote system!!  Do you see that you are arguing math for a different kind of election process?  We have precincts, people vote within their precincts then their precincts become a vote, all the losing votes in each precinct still counted as a vote!  There are no half votes or times two votes, a vote is a vote, and its weight is within the precinct.  Then the precincts are tallied up for electoral votes, which is a pure democracy, but reduced down to a manageable representative number.  Would you seriously want LA, NYC, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, San Francisco, Chicago and Seattle to call every election?  Is that what you are arguing for?  If our system is as flawed as you suggest, Obama should have pushed or change.

I am not dodging any questions here, the question has been answered over and over and over again.  Brutal truth: questioning the EC is juvenile at this point without presenting an option for something better and pure democracy is not better.
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #219 on: December 19, 2016, 07:08:23 PM »

A vote may have a different weight in a *popular vote* but we do not use a popular vote system!!  Do you see that you are arguing math for a different kind of election process?  We have precincts, people vote within their precincts then their precincts become a vote, all the losing votes in each precinct still counted as a vote!  There are no half votes or times two votes, a vote is a vote, and its weight is within the precinct.  Then the precincts are tallied up for electoral votes, which is a pure democracy, but reduced down to a manageable representative number.  Would you seriously want LA, NYC, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, San Francisco, Chicago and Seattle to call every election?  Is that what you are arguing for?  If our system is as flawed as you suggest, Obama should have pushed or change.

I am not dodging any questions here, the question has been answered over and over and over again.  Brutal truth: questioning the EC is juvenile at this point without presenting an option for something better and pure democracy is not better.

No.  Simply wrong.  In a popular vote nationally, each vote is equal.  With the Electoral College each vote is equal within that state only.  Since Electoral votes are not done by population, but by representatives, each vote has a different value by state.

Questioning the EC is not juvenile.  It has a fault, and it is CLEARLY explained to you.  That flaw is all we are talking about.  I am not advocating to abolish the EC, so STOP assuming that is what anyone here wants.  Just FIX the EC.  I really dont understand why you cant simply focus on the one thing we are explaining.  It is 100% fact, proveable mathmatically, that some votes count more than others.  Fact.








FACT.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #220 on: December 19, 2016, 07:15:01 PM »
In a popular vote nationally, each vote is equal.  With the Electoral College each vote is equal within that state only. 

There is communication breakdown here because that is essentially what I said.  When you apply a popular vote's weight to the EC it doesn't make sense, and when you apply an EC vote to a popular vote it doesn't make sense.  When you apply an EC vote to the EC it's all good.  And yes, there may be some flaw in the EC system, noting is perfect, but the EC system is better than a handful of heavily populated areas calling each election.  Right? 
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Offline TL

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #221 on: December 19, 2016, 07:17:01 PM »
7th, in the electoral college system, votes in different states literally aren't valued the same. In California, every 705,000 people get an electoral vote. In Wyoming, every 195,000 do. That is literally not equal.

Or is math a liberal conspiracy now?

As I said, and you promptly ignored, there are other parts of the process to avoid tyranny of the majority, like the way senate representation is proportioned, and with congress, with governors, and so on.

More than 2.6 million more American citizens voted for candidate A than candidate B. Why do we go with what fewer American citizens chose just because of where they all happen to live?
I promise you, if Trump had won the popular vote, while I wouldn't be happy about it, I would accept it as the will of a plurality of Americans.

Also, you absolutely didn't actually watch the video I posted, or at least not in full. They bring up that argument of "A few cities would always decide everything!". Turns out, once again if we turn to our good friend math, it isn't the case. The numbers just aren't there.
Also, even in the basis of that argument, you're again implying that people who live in cities shouldn't have as much say. Cities have what say they do because more American citizens live there. It's literally a matter of numbers.

Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #222 on: December 19, 2016, 07:21:25 PM »
In a popular vote nationally, each vote is equal.  With the Electoral College each vote is equal within that state only. 

There is communication breakdown here because that is essentially what I said.  When you apply a popular vote's weight to the EC it doesn't make sense, and when you apply an EC vote to a popular vote it doesn't make sense.  When you apply an EC vote to the EC it's all good.  And yes, there may be some flaw in the EC system, noting is perfect, but the EC system is better than a handful of heavily populated areas calling each election.  Right?

I am not making any determination about how good the EC is.  My point, and that of others, was that each vote does not have the same value in the POTUS election, and that is its flaw. 

So....are you ready to agree that each vote does not have the same value in the presidential election using the EC?
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #223 on: December 19, 2016, 08:26:41 PM »
7th, in the electoral college system, votes in different states literally aren't valued the same. In California, every 705,000 people get an electoral vote. In Wyoming, every 195,000 do. That is literally not equal.

Or is math a liberal conspiracy now?


The population of Wyoming is less than 750k and Wyoming has a few electoral votes compared to Cali's 55.  Math is not a liberal conspiracy, nor should it be abused to in an attempt to back up political ideas.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #224 on: December 19, 2016, 08:29:42 PM »
So....are you ready to agree that each vote does not have the same value in the presidential election using the EC?

No, because that statement is false, the math you cite is wrong (as I just illustrated a glaring flaw to TL), and the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation. 
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2016, 08:30:17 PM »
7th, in the electoral college system, votes in different states literally aren't valued the same. In California, every 705,000 people get an electoral vote. In Wyoming, every 195,000 do. That is literally not equal.

Or is math a liberal conspiracy now?


The population of Wyoming is less than 750k and Wyoming has a few electoral votes compared to Cali's 55.  Math is not a liberal conspiracy, nor should it be abused to in an attempt to back up political ideas.

Awesome!  Now divide the population of those states by the electoral votes.  Go ahead...I'll wait...there, see the difference?
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2016, 08:32:40 PM »
So....are you ready to agree that each vote does not have the same value in the presidential election using the EC?

No, because that statement is false, the math you cite is wrong (as I just illustrated a glaring flaw to TL), and the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation.

Then show me the math.  If 1000's of college campuses have debunked it, just show it here.  If you can show how the individual votes are equal in the EC, I will concede defeat.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #227 on: December 19, 2016, 08:43:45 PM »
I just did a quick google search, and here are my numbers between the two states:

(Note: I rounded the numbers to the nearest hundredth)

wyoming electoral votes = 3

wyoming population = 584,153 (2014 numbers)

wyoming number of individual votes per electoral college votes= 194,717.67



cali electoral votes = 55

cali population = 38,800,000 (2014 numbers)

cali number of individual votes per electoral college votes = 705,454.54

Very easy math. I'm a blue-collar idiot with only one year of college, and it took me all of 30 seconds to look the information up, enter it into a calculator and type this message. The very simple math behind this is undeniable.
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #228 on: December 19, 2016, 08:48:05 PM »
Powerslave, that math is debunked 1000's of times every day on college campuses.  You are just upset Hillary lost.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #229 on: December 19, 2016, 08:49:54 PM »
Powerslave, that math is debunked 1000's of times every day on college campuses.  You are just upset Hillary lost.

How dare you!!!...oh, wait...green text...never mind  :lol
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2016, 08:52:07 PM »
So....are you ready to agree that each vote does not have the same value in the presidential election using the EC?

No, because that statement is false, the math you cite is wrong (as I just illustrated a glaring flaw to TL), and the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation.

Then show me the math.  If 1000's of college campuses have debunked it, just show it here.  If you can show how the individual votes are equal in the EC, I will concede defeat.

uuggghh.  The *argument is debunked* not the math, the math is flawed because it calculates vote "value" in a system where millions of votes are consolidated into 538 votes which are then cast by electors in a pure democratic vote.  Furthermore, lending credit to the vote values math which is just a statistical distribution of population across representitives, the distribution is still very close with the exception of a couple of states, AND there is nothing stopping any voter from living and casting their vote where they want so the average vote value distribution is totally irrelevant.  I you want your vote to "matter", which is a joke of a concept, simply move to a state with a median population.  But, even that is no guarantee the state will be a swing state and frankly, the swing states in each election are the only votes that really "count".  But it takes *every voters vote* to establish swing states!!  The EC system has been proven to work.  Just deal with it or propose something better - but a straight popular vote is not better.   
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Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2016, 08:55:13 PM »
So....are you ready to agree that each vote does not have the same value in the presidential election using the EC?

No, because that statement is false, the math you cite is wrong (as I just illustrated a glaring flaw to TL), and the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation.

Then show me the math.  If 1000's of college campuses have debunked it, just show it here.  If you can show how the individual votes are equal in the EC, I will concede defeat.

uuggghh.  The *argument is debunked* not the math, the math is flawed because it calculates vote "value" in a system where millions of votes are consolidated into 538 votes which are then cast by electors in a pure democratic vote.  Furthermore, lending credit to the vote values math which is just a statistical distribution of population across representitives, the distribution is still very close with the exception of a couple of states, AND there is nothing stopping any voter from living and casting their vote where they want so the average vote value distribution is totally irrelevant.  I you want your vote to "matter", which is a joke of a concept, simply move to a state with a median population.  But, even that is no guarantee the state will be a swing state and frankly, the swing states in each election are the only votes that really "count".  But it takes *every voters vote* to establish swing states!!  The EC system has been proven to work.  Just deal with it or propose something better - but a straight popular vote is not better.

Wow that was fun wacthing you try and dance around the simple truth.
Sad you cand disconnect your political bias to discuss a simple flaw with the EC.
If you cant see it with Powerslaves post, then it is clear you will fight tooth and nail to never accept the plain and simple truth.  THAT is the kind of mindset and behavior I dont want to see in the POTUS.  Facing this level of futility is a signal to go to bed.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2016, 08:56:05 PM »
Powerslave, that math is debunked 1000's of times every day on college campuses.  You are just upset Hillary lost.

To quote myself for Eric's benefit (so he stops misquoting me):

"...the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation."

Your argument being that that statistical distribution of votes reduces the "value" of a presidential election vote.
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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #233 on: December 19, 2016, 08:58:46 PM »
Powerslave, that math is debunked 1000's of times every day on college campuses.  You are just upset Hillary lost.

To quote myself for Eric's benefit (so he stops misquoting me):

"...the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation."

Your argument being that that statistical distribution of votes reduces the "value" of a presidential election vote.

Ummmm, yes it does, and I am shocked that you cant see it. 
Peace out.  I wont waste another second on this futility.   :lol
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #234 on: December 19, 2016, 09:11:07 PM »
So....are you ready to agree that each vote does not have the same value in the presidential election using the EC?

No, because that statement is false, the math you cite is wrong (as I just illustrated a glaring flaw to TL), and the whole argument you are making has been debunked at least 1000 times every day on college campuses around the nation.

There's the full quote. There's nothing wrong with the math. The premise behind Eric's statements was that there is a flaw in the EC. An individual vote in one state holds more power than an individual vote in another state. This is a mathematical truth. There is no feeling involved. There is no bias involved.

Now I'm going to further follow Eric's lead, and bid this thread adieu. Good evening to all.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #235 on: December 19, 2016, 09:14:36 PM »
I just did a quick google search, and here are my numbers between the two states:

(Note: I rounded the numbers to the nearest hundredth)

wyoming electoral votes = 3

wyoming population = 584,153 (2014 numbers)

wyoming number of individual votes per electoral college votes= 194,717.67



cali electoral votes = 55

cali population = 38,800,000 (2014 numbers)

cali number of individual votes per electoral college votes = 705,454.54

Very easy math. I'm a blue-collar idiot with only one year of college, and it took me all of 30 seconds to look the information up, enter it into a calculator and type this message. The very simple math behind this is undeniable.

Okay, what this simple math implies is that if you were to normalized the EC votes by population across all the states, you'd end up with an EC vote mathematically equivalent to a popular vote!  There are deeper reasons for the totally deliberate distribution imbalances and the EC.  Bottom line, the EC approach is fair and a popular vote is not fair AND nobody has come up with anything better.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Online eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #236 on: December 19, 2016, 09:16:33 PM »
I just did a quick google search, and here are my numbers between the two states:

(Note: I rounded the numbers to the nearest hundredth)

wyoming electoral votes = 3

wyoming population = 584,153 (2014 numbers)

wyoming number of individual votes per electoral college votes= 194,717.67



cali electoral votes = 55

cali population = 38,800,000 (2014 numbers)

cali number of individual votes per electoral college votes = 705,454.54

Very easy math. I'm a blue-collar idiot with only one year of college, and it took me all of 30 seconds to look the information up, enter it into a calculator and type this message. The very simple math behind this is undeniable.

Okay, what this simple math implies is that if you were to normalized the EC votes by population across all the states, you'd end up with an EC vote mathematically equivalent to a popular vote!  There are deeper reasons for the totally deliberate distribution imbalances and the EC.  Bottom line, the EC approach is fair and a popular vote is not fair AND nobody has come up with anything better.

WRONG.  Not a popular vote nationally.  Each state would still have their own election.  But each individual vote would have the same weight if each state was given EC votes by population.

And there is no "deeper" reason for the EC distribution.   :lol  PLEASE tell us all what this "deeper" reason is!
It is a MORONIC and arbitrary reason.  Each state automatically gets 2 EC votes because it has 2 senators REGARDLESS of population.  That is PRECISELY what the flaw is!!!!!!!!

Starting to see the light?

I do not have the time to walk you through this.  It should be very evident.  Read the link I posted tonight, and get back to me tomorrow.  I have faith in you.

Good Night
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #237 on: December 19, 2016, 09:28:09 PM »
I just did a quick google search, and here are my numbers between the two states:

(Note: I rounded the numbers to the nearest hundredth)

wyoming electoral votes = 3

wyoming population = 584,153 (2014 numbers)

wyoming number of individual votes per electoral college votes= 194,717.67



cali electoral votes = 55

cali population = 38,800,000 (2014 numbers)

cali number of individual votes per electoral college votes = 705,454.54

Very easy math. I'm a blue-collar idiot with only one year of college, and it took me all of 30 seconds to look the information up, enter it into a calculator and type this message. The very simple math behind this is undeniable.

Okay, what this simple math implies is that if you were to normalized the EC votes by population across all the states, you'd end up with an EC vote mathematically equivalent to a popular vote!  There are deeper reasons for the totally deliberate distribution imbalances and the EC.  Bottom line, the EC approach is fair and a popular vote is not fair AND nobody has come up with anything better.

WRONG.  Not a popular vote nationally.  Each state would still have their own election.  But each individual bvote would have the same weight if each state was given EC votes by population.

And there is no "deeper" reason for the EC distribution.   :lol  PLEASE tell us all what this "deeper" reason is!
It is a MORONIC and arbitrary reason.  Each state automatically gets 2 EC votes because it has 2 senators RGARDLESS of population.  That is PRECISELY what the flaw is!!!!!!!!

Starting to see the light?

The light you seek:

"Why does the actual weight of your vote vary by state? Remember that every state gets a number of electors that is the total of all of its representatives in Congress, both in the House of Representatives and in the Senate. The House of Representatives is divided approximately by population big states have the most representatives, small states have the fewest but every state has exactly two senators, regardless of size. That means that while big states have more electors than small states, they don't have as many more as they would based on population alone. "

From:
http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/lessons/davidwalbert7232004-02/electoralcollege.html#4

As I have said, we are rehashing common grade school knowledge here (same source):

"When you vote for president, remember that you're voting in a state election, not a national election. So your vote counts just as much as anyone else's in your state but it may count more or less than that of someone living in another state!"

So, you are correct that across states, vote weight varies, but as I pointed out nobody is restricted to voting in a particular state - so in a way we are both right, but people arguing that their vote does not "count" is false.  You wanted me to concede, well there it is but I am not conceding that the math you cite shows a "flaw" in the EC.  That flaw is the whole reason the EC exists.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #238 on: December 19, 2016, 09:33:39 PM »
No, you still are not right, not even a little.

Good night.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #239 on: December 19, 2016, 09:34:39 PM »
It is a MORONIC and arbitrary reason.  Each state automatically gets 2 EC votes because it has 2 senators REGARDLESS of population.  That is PRECISELY what the flaw is!!!!!!!!

Man, nip the condescending tone.  It is not necessary nor does it lend any credit to our intellectual integrity.

The thing you are calling a flaw is the deliberate imbalance the EC provides.  If you think the flaw should be removed you will end up with a popular vote.  Why not just have a popular vote?  Well, because it has been determined that an EC vote prevents mob rule.  See why the math simply does not matter?
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #240 on: December 19, 2016, 09:44:32 PM »
It is a MORONIC and arbitrary reason.  Each state automatically gets 2 EC votes because it has 2 senators REGARDLESS of population.  That is PRECISELY what the flaw is!!!!!!!!

Man, nip the condescending tone.  It is not necessary nor does it lend any credit to our intellectual integrity.

The thing you are calling a flaw is the deliberate imbalance the EC provides.  If you think the flaw should be removed you will end up with a popular vote.  Why not just have a popular vote?  Well, because it has been determined that an EC vote prevents mob rule.  See why the math simply does not matter?

There was zero condescending tone in that quoted post. 
The flaw is a flaw....the imbalance is a flaw.
And you really need to stop saying it will result In a popular vote.....it won't as there will still be state elections.  See why the math does matter?
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #241 on: December 19, 2016, 09:49:59 PM »
If each state had EC votes corresponding to population, how can it be a popular vote if each state has its own elections?    How is this not blatantly obvious?

Let's say in Vermont we have 60% vote for X.  X gets the electoral votes for the state which is for ALL the voters in VT.   Boom....popular vote gone.

We just want the EC votes to correspond to population by state so each vote is weighted equally.  That doesn't mean each vote will go to their candidate because each state will have one winner.  Get it?

Please tell me you get it now so I can go to bed lol
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #242 on: December 19, 2016, 10:25:51 PM »
We just want the EC votes to correspond to population by state so each vote is weighted equally.  That doesn't mean each vote will go to their candidate because each state will have one winner.  Get it?

If the EC vote correspond to population by state, that would reverse the reason why the EC exists - to prevent the population of a state to swing an election.  But it is deeper, like I said, because it has more to do with population centers within states which is why we use the representative numbers.  Like California, for example, gives a HUGE advantage in the EC to the candidate that state votes for.  That advantage is mathematically nullified by the disadvantage in other states so it evens out.
 
I don't think it is a flaw, I contend it is design, but if it is a flaw what is the solution and why hasn't the solution been implemented?
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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #243 on: December 19, 2016, 10:37:59 PM »
There is a rational reason that the electoral college adjusts the electorates based on the states population. You claim that Wyoming has an edge because they have more electoral votes per population, and this is half true. Yes, they have more electoral votes per their population, but this doesn't give them an edge. In order to give every state a fair representation, these adjustments need to be made. If not, we'll find that elections are decided by only the most populated states, and the measly 60,000 or so citizens of Cheyenne, Wyoming would have their votes count for next to nothing. Numerous studies have been done on this and it's not that hard to understand. I'm sure you'll figure it out. I have faith in you.

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #244 on: December 19, 2016, 10:56:21 PM »
There is a rational reason that the electoral college adjusts the electorates based on the states population. You claim that Wyoming has an edge because they have more electoral votes per population, and this is half true. Yes, they have more electoral votes per their population, but this doesn't give them an edge. In order to give every state a fair representation, these adjustments need to be made. If not, we'll find that elections are decided by only the most populated states, and the measly 60,000 or so citizens of Cheyenne, Wyoming would have their votes count for next to nothing. Numerous studies have been done on this and it's not that hard to understand. I'm sure you'll figure it out. I have faith in you.

This is a way better explanation than I could muster.  Thank you Prog Snob.  The variances across states do not create an unfair system, they help the system be more fair.  The math doesn't expose a flaw, it exposes a genius adjustment to prevent mob rule. 
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin