Author Topic: How do you view the popular vote?  (Read 4796 times)

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #175 on: November 30, 2016, 08:34:40 PM »
Okay, so now the question is changing; that's not how I understood your initial request.
Not sure why. Here is where it came up (top of the page)

Remember, their first steps to power were parallel with modern progressivism: disarm the population, install politically correct propaganda networks, and redistribute the wealth.
I see that threat bandied about quite a bit from people on the right about people on the left.  I have yet to actually see anyone on the left ever propose a plan to disarm the population. 

I'm still waiting on Obama to institute the roundup that was threatened by many on the right when he was elected, and that caused ammo shortages all over the country by people trying to buy up the supply since they would soon be banned.  Well, he still has a month and a half, I guess he could still do it.

And I have been consistent the entire time.

There will never, ever be a national roundup of firearms.  Even if some politicians might fantasize about it in their wet dreams, it will never happen.  And it will never be a platform point of the Democratic party.  The only time such a thing is ever mentioned on a national level is when people on the right (usually conspiracy nuts) talk about it as a possibility in order to scare/rouse up the rabble.

Besides it being illogical, it would be as impossible as gathering all of the illegal immigrants to send them back home.

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #176 on: December 01, 2016, 12:05:01 AM »
Okay, so now the question is changing; that's not how I understood your initial request.
Not sure why. Here is where it came up (top of the page)

Remember, their first steps to power were parallel with modern progressivism: disarm the population, install politically correct propaganda networks, and redistribute the wealth.
I see that threat bandied about quite a bit from people on the right about people on the left.  I have yet to actually see anyone on the left ever propose a plan to disarm the population. 

I'm still waiting on Obama to institute the roundup that was threatened by many on the right when he was elected, and that caused ammo shortages all over the country by people trying to buy up the supply since they would soon be banned.  Well, he still has a month and a half, I guess he could still do it.

And I have been consistent the entire time.

There will never, ever be a national roundup of firearms.  Even if some politicians might fantasize about it in their wet dreams, it will never happen.  And it will never be a platform point of the Democratic party.  The only time such a thing is ever mentioned on a national level is when people on the right (usually conspiracy nuts) talk about it as a possibility in order to scare/rouse up the rabble.

Besides it being illogical, it would be as impossible as gathering all of the illegal immigrants to send them back home.

It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

As for gun "round ups", that has been contemplated and done in other countries so it could happen here.  But, just a ban on assault rifles criminalizes legal owners forcing them to release their guns to the Sherriff or to live as a government-made criminal despite having the constitutional right to be armed.

Let me ask you good folks something?  When you saw Star Wars did you root for Han Solo?  Or were you pulling for the Empire?  The reason why I ask is would Han Solo ever support stiff gun regulation?  Never.  Would he resist being a swaggering, womanizing, scoundrel who shoots FIRST in bar confrontations because it isn't "politically correct"?  If he's the image of everything supposedly wrong with modern society, why do we love him so much?  Why did the fans scream in retaliation when Lucas tried to smooth his rough edges?  Face it, we *love* that he shot first.  Why?  Because we love scoundrels.  Heck, I'll bet Trump's *real* numbers went up when he was caught blabbing about pussy grabbing.  (whoa, that rhymes!)  Anyway, so embrace your inner scoundrel.  Do right by good people and put a big Johnny Rotten middle finger up against the bloated, dehumanizing systems of the world.  They are the empire, we are the rebellion.   :xbones :yarr :xbones

 
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #177 on: December 01, 2016, 12:42:08 AM »
It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

I'm trying to be nice, but that's one of the most absurd and ludicrous things I've ever heard. You come off as a right-winger and you think putting aside a budget to pay millions of illegal immigrants to leave is a good idea? What?

I don't care if the good ones stay. The criminals should be booted out - not paid to leave.

"Thank you for driving up crime in our country. Here is a nice consolation prize for your journey home."

As for gun "round ups", that has been contemplated and done in other countries so it could happen here.  But, just a ban on assault rifles criminalizes legal owners forcing them to release their guns to the Sherriff or to live as a government-made criminal despite having the constitutional right to be armed.

Simple solution to that.

"Officer, I don't have that rifle anymore. I lost in when I was hunting."

Like Hef said, that gun round-up is never going to happen here.

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #178 on: December 01, 2016, 12:48:19 AM »
It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

I'm trying to be nice, but that's one of the most absurd and ludicrous things I've ever heard. You come off as a right-winger and you think putting aside a budget to pay millions of illegal immigrants to leave is a good idea? What?


Think about the cost of mass deportation, then think about the cost of self deportation.  This is also why I appreciate Trump.  While people are calling him stupid he is actually solving real problems.  Also, not really a right winger, more a centrist.  I'd love to see universal healthcare for example.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #179 on: December 01, 2016, 12:54:29 AM »
It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

I'm trying to be nice, but that's one of the most absurd and ludicrous things I've ever heard. You come off as a right-winger and you think putting aside a budget to pay millions of illegal immigrants to leave is a good idea? What?


Think about the cost of mass deportation, then think about the cost of self deportation.  This is also why I appreciate Trump.  While people are calling him stupid he is actually solving real problems.  Also, not really a right winger, more a centrist.  I'd love to see universal healthcare for example.

Universal health care. Massive deportation bribes. You must be loaded.  :lol

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #180 on: December 01, 2016, 01:19:57 AM »
It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

I'm trying to be nice, but that's one of the most absurd and ludicrous things I've ever heard. You come off as a right-winger and you think putting aside a budget to pay millions of illegal immigrants to leave is a good idea? What?


Think about the cost of mass deportation, then think about the cost of self deportation.  This is also why I appreciate Trump.  While people are calling him stupid he is actually solving real problems.  Also, not really a right winger, more a centrist.  I'd love to see universal healthcare for example.

Universal health care. Massive deportation bribes. You must be loaded.  :lol

Why not?  Instead of paying people to deport people, just pay people to leave.  It's less costly, more efficient, and WAY more humane.  I like the idea.  I don't like the idea of rounding up people in chains and deporting them on cramped buses.  Heck, give them and check and a 1st class ticket home where they can start a new life with the money the US would have spent treating them like animals.  I see no issue with my thinking.  Unrealistic?  Well, that is also what everyone said about Trump winning now isn't it?
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #181 on: December 01, 2016, 01:24:48 AM »
It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

I'm trying to be nice, but that's one of the most absurd and ludicrous things I've ever heard. You come off as a right-winger and you think putting aside a budget to pay millions of illegal immigrants to leave is a good idea? What?


Think about the cost of mass deportation, then think about the cost of self deportation.  This is also why I appreciate Trump.  While people are calling him stupid he is actually solving real problems.  Also, not really a right winger, more a centrist.  I'd love to see universal healthcare for example.

Universal health care. Massive deportation bribes. You must be loaded.  :lol

Why not?  Instead of paying people to deport people, just pay people to leave.  It's less costly, more efficient, and WAY more humane.  I like the idea.  I don't like the idea of rounding up people in chains and deporting them on cramped buses.  Heck, give them and check and a 1st class ticket home where they can start a new life with the money the US would have spent treating them like animals.  I see no issue with my thinking.  Unrealistic?  Well, that is also what everyone said about Trump winning now isn't it?

Paying people to leave? It's as unrealistic as rounding up all of the guns. I think we should focus on something more viable. Illegal immigrant criminals should not be paid US Dollars to leave. Sorry. There is just so much wrong with that. They're already costing us money going through our correctional system and health care system.

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #182 on: December 01, 2016, 01:37:41 AM »
It's not impossible, simply pay them to leave.

I'm trying to be nice, but that's one of the most absurd and ludicrous things I've ever heard. You come off as a right-winger and you think putting aside a budget to pay millions of illegal immigrants to leave is a good idea? What?


Think about the cost of mass deportation, then think about the cost of self deportation.  This is also why I appreciate Trump.  While people are calling him stupid he is actually solving real problems.  Also, not really a right winger, more a centrist.  I'd love to see universal healthcare for example.

Universal health care. Massive deportation bribes. You must be loaded.  :lol

Why not?  Instead of paying people to deport people, just pay people to leave.  It's less costly, more efficient, and WAY more humane.  I like the idea.  I don't like the idea of rounding up people in chains and deporting them on cramped buses.  Heck, give them and check and a 1st class ticket home where they can start a new life with the money the US would have spent treating them like animals.  I see no issue with my thinking.  Unrealistic?  Well, that is also what everyone said about Trump winning now isn't it?

Paying people to leave? It's as unrealistic as rounding up all of the guns. I think we should focus on something more viable. Illegal immigrant criminals should not be paid US Dollars to leave. Sorry. There is just so much wrong with that. They're already costing us money going through our correctional system and health care system.

On this we agree.  Violent criminals should be kicked out forcefully.  People who just came here seeking a better life should be offered a fast track to citizenship or paid to leave.  Either way costs money, so give them the option of just taking the money.  Maybe they will do something good with it.  There is more potential for good by putting the money in their hands than having the government spend it to treat them like cattle.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #183 on: December 01, 2016, 01:42:42 AM »
I still don't agree with handing them money to leave. Alas, we can't all agree on everything.

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #184 on: December 01, 2016, 02:28:58 AM »
If you pay people to leave, what's stopping them and others from coming across the border just for a free pay day? Instead of ridding yourself of an issue, you'd balloon the issue. Some people would probably use it as a lifestyle.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #185 on: December 01, 2016, 02:56:56 AM »
If you pay people to leave, what's stopping them and others from coming across the border just for a free pay day? Instead of ridding yourself of an issue, you'd balloon the issue. Some people would probably use it as a lifestyle.

In order for self deportation to work we need better border security and immigrant tracking/profiling first.  I'm not really thinking wall here, I think there are more effective and less expensive solutions border security solutions.  Actually, before any kind of exodus of illegals from the USA, better border management has to be in place.  I also believe the endeavor needs to be beneficial to the immigrants too.  If people are living good productive lives here, then fast track them to citizenship.  But if they are struggling or gaming the system or contributing to social problems, they either accept deportation on their own or they are forcefully removed, but only as a last resort.  I do believe that there are ways to normalize immigration without treating people like animals. 
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #186 on: December 01, 2016, 05:30:34 AM »
I don't see how paying people to self deport fixes anything, and surely will create far more issues than it solves.  The assumptions one needs to make in order for this to be even remotely feasible require the suspension of rational thought IMO.
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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #187 on: December 01, 2016, 08:57:30 AM »
I think the most common definition is the melding of populist economics (which are actually probably best described as left-wing) with strident right-wing/nationalist social policy (anti-civil rights, anti-immigrant, authoritarian, etc.).  In a way, it's the theoretical polar opposite of a libertarian, which are left-wing on social policy but right-wing on economics.

I agree with most (probably all) of this, but it's interesting to note that I get called a "fascist" almost as much as, if not more than, anything else. 

It's come to be the word du jour for "anything that's not me", I think.  I say that to be funny more than any cogent analysis, but from an accuracy standpoint, it's not far off.

Quote
But even that definition does not go far enough.  I think for it to be typically fascist, you have to have the extra element of the power merger between private wealth and government in a fashion that the government uses its authoritarian powers to enrich private enterprise at the expense of the public coffers.  The result is corporate handouts funded by high government debt.

This last element is what differentiates fascist-populist economic policy from progressive-populist economic policy.  Because while government spending usually decreases economic inequality by redistributing capital in the form of paying jobs for the people (a very socialist goal), a fascist government will do the same thing, except for the purposes of purchasing political support from both the economic elites and its lower-level supporters.  All while the public's civil rights and right to dissent are stripped away, and the government coffers are bankrupt.  Bankrupting the government coffers is actually a right-wing strategy, because they prefer a crippled government that has no power to fight the interests of entrenched wealth.

That's why you see Republican administrations actually running UP government deficits, and Democratic administrations decreasing it.

See, you were right on the mark, and then blew it at the end.   The last eight years is exactly what you describe in the previous two paragraphs, and then go and try to pin it all on the "REPUBLICANS".  Like clock work.   Cutting back room deals with Big Pharma, guaranteeing them profits in order to support legislation that redistributes wealth is EXACTLY what you're talking about, and EXACTLY what Barack did as one of his first actions in office.    I firmly and unequivocally believe that what many are calling the "PC movement" (I try not to, though I douse that, as I don't have a better name for it) is just as chilling to the right to peaceful expression of view points as any stereotypical "right-wing" measures.

Now, let me be clear:  I'm not doing the exact same thing back at you, because it's NOT a "Democrat" thing.  Bill Clinton didn't do this when he was in office.  These things are not "left/right" things.  In my opinion, they are intellectual failings, which we see on both sides of the aisle. 

Offline jsbru

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #188 on: December 01, 2016, 10:33:30 AM »
I don't disagree that similar warning signs haven't happened during the Obama administration.  I think this is more of a reflection of the realities of our political system rather than Obama's actual political agenda or platform.  He also raised taxes on rich people to lower the deficit, and the deficit was indeed cut by about 2/3rds.  Balancing the government's budget is actually an impediment to fascism by my definition, whether or not you agree with those taxes or not.  And his signature legislation actually gave a lot of poor and lower-middle class people privileges--instead of taking them away.

However, since Citizens United, how is any party supposed to get anything done without making back-room deals with the very powerful industries that finance their campaigns?

I think this notion that our country is drifting to a more "fascist" state didn't start with Trump.  It's been going on for a while.  And I'm not trying to be hyperbolic with that word...I don't think we're there yet.  But I think we are drifting toward that model...where the government is there to enrich the powerful rather than empower the demos.
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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #189 on: December 01, 2016, 10:48:59 AM »
Simple solution to that.

"Officer, I don't have that rifle anymore. I lost in when I was hunting."

Like Hef said, that gun round-up is never going to happen here.

I don't disagree, but it's funny how often the arguments here do not pay enough homage to the property of symmetry.   "TRUMP'S FACISM"TM isn't going to happen here either, but somehow the argument doesn't hold water there, even though it should for the same reasons.

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #190 on: December 01, 2016, 11:19:40 AM »
I don't disagree that similar warning signs haven't happened during the Obama administration.  I think this is more of a reflection of the realities of our political system rather than Obama's actual political agenda or platform.  He also raised taxes on rich people to lower the deficit, and the deficit was indeed cut by about 2/3rds.  Balancing the government's budget is actually an impediment to fascism by my definition, whether or not you agree with those taxes or not.  And his signature legislation actually gave a lot of poor and lower-middle class people privileges--instead of taking them away.

However, since Citizens United, how is any party supposed to get anything done without making back-room deals with the very powerful industries that finance their campaigns?

I think this notion that our country is drifting to a more "fascist" state didn't start with Trump.  It's been going on for a while.  And I'm not trying to be hyperbolic with that word...I don't think we're there yet.  But I think we are drifting toward that model...where the government is there to enrich the powerful rather than empower the demos.

I like this line of thought, especially the last sentence, even if I disagree where the rubber meets the road.   I think that last sentence could just as equally apply to the increasing focus on special interest groups, and the increasing need to create "enemies" of the State.  As I discuss this with you more and more, I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that this is an issue not of "philosophy" or "ideology" - "Hi, I'm a FACIST!" - but rather one of strategy. 

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #191 on: December 19, 2016, 12:06:37 AM »
Well now that the dust has settled, this:

http://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/its-official-clintons-popular-vote-win-came-entirely-from-california/

But it is a sad day for the USA when headlines are reading "Electoral College may Elect Trump Tomorrow..."  The anti-trump crowd are showing their true colors for sure and those colors are not consistent with the type of character necessary to identify and select a competent leader.  I mean, all the hubbub about hackers, yet no discourse on the fact that what the hackers exposed was serious DNC corruption.  I'll take hackers over corrupt politicians any day.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #192 on: December 19, 2016, 07:59:05 AM »
Well now that the dust has settled, this:

http://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/its-official-clintons-popular-vote-win-came-entirely-from-california/

But it is a sad day for the USA when headlines are reading "Electoral College may Elect Trump Tomorrow..."  The anti-trump crowd are showing their true colors for sure and those colors are not consistent with the type of character necessary to identify and select a competent leader.  I mean, all the hubbub about hackers, yet no discourse on the fact that what the hackers exposed was serious DNC corruption.  I'll take hackers over corrupt politicians any day.

I don't think it should have ever been a question as to why she was winning the popular vote....it was always due to the large disparity that California produced. And I think that's why the only 'people' harping on the popular vote deal are the crazy side of the Dem train because most even keeled 'free' thinkers understand that she only won that popular vote because of California.

I mean whether you win the game 2-1 or 12-1....it only counts as one win. She won California....big whoop....the difference in votes means jack dookie drawers.
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Offline Chino

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #193 on: December 19, 2016, 08:04:29 AM »

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #194 on: December 19, 2016, 08:55:43 AM »


It's kind of funny how the rhetoric has reversed....all based off of either winning or losing. Trumps touting all of Hillary's 'go to' lines she used prior to losing the electoral college....and she's touting all of his 'go to lines' he used prior to winning it.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #195 on: December 19, 2016, 11:59:24 AM »


I think many people have made this mistake.  Right now many people who supported Hillary are making this same mistake.  Without the electoral college the most populated states would elect every president.  So the election process we have is actually pretty genius.
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Offline Chino

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #196 on: December 19, 2016, 12:45:32 PM »


I think many people have made this mistake.  Right now many people who supported Hillary are making this same mistake.  Without the electoral college the most populated states would elect every president.  So the election process we have is actually pretty genius.

Except that it persuades (for better or for worse) potentially hundreds of thousands of voters to not bother voting as their states are typically dominated by one side or the other. How many Trump supporters stayed home in California, Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, and Maryland? How many Hillary supporters stayed home in Idaho, Alabama, Kentucky, Missouri, North Dakota, and West Virginia? A system that makes a large percentage of the population feel as though their vote means nothing seems pretty shitty to me. If every vote really counted, that 2,800,000 vote lead that Hillary has now would look much, much different. 

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #197 on: December 19, 2016, 12:51:18 PM »
It's kind of funny how the rhetoric has reversed....all based off of either winning or losing. Trumps touting all of Hillary's 'go to' lines she used prior to losing the electoral college....and she's touting all of his 'go to lines' he used prior to winning it.

Yea pretty much this.  It seems that the results influence the opinions on the process based on whether the system worked for them not the value of the system itself.

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #198 on: December 19, 2016, 01:18:52 PM »


I think many people have made this mistake.  Right now many people who supported Hillary are making this same mistake.  Without the electoral college the most populated states would elect every president.  So the election process we have is actually pretty genius.

Except that it persuades (for better or for worse) potentially hundreds of thousands of voters to not bother voting as their states are typically dominated by one side or the other. How many Trump supporters stayed home in California, Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, and Maryland? How many Hillary supporters stayed home in Idaho, Alabama, Kentucky, Missouri, North Dakota, and West Virginia? A system that makes a large percentage of the population feel as though their vote means nothing seems pretty shitty to me. If every vote really counted, that 2,800,000 vote lead that Hillary has now would look much, much different.

The people who created our process knew that pure democracies lead to tyranny.  A perfect democracy of three, two wolves and a sheep, voting on what's for dinner is never going to result in a fair outcome.  Hillary winning on a landslide in a few highly populated counties would not have been fair either.  Yes, you are correct that some people's votes are somewhat nullified by region, but without the process we have, very large blocks of votes (like the entire group of flyover states) would be nullified.  So the trade off is Hillary was granted the head start that California and New York gave her (very large head start).  All she needed to do was bring home a few more swing states and she'd be President.  She lost fair and square.  People need to get over it.  I'm personally ecstatic because to millions she represented lawlessness, corruption, and elitism.  Not really sure why anyone would support her. 
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Offline Chino

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #199 on: December 19, 2016, 01:30:38 PM »


I think many people have made this mistake.  Right now many people who supported Hillary are making this same mistake.  Without the electoral college the most populated states would elect every president.  So the election process we have is actually pretty genius.

Except that it persuades (for better or for worse) potentially hundreds of thousands of voters to not bother voting as their states are typically dominated by one side or the other. How many Trump supporters stayed home in California, Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, and Maryland? How many Hillary supporters stayed home in Idaho, Alabama, Kentucky, Missouri, North Dakota, and West Virginia? A system that makes a large percentage of the population feel as though their vote means nothing seems pretty shitty to me. If every vote really counted, that 2,800,000 vote lead that Hillary has now would look much, much different.

The people who created our process knew that pure democracies lead to tyranny.  A perfect democracy of three, two wolves and a sheep, voting on what's for dinner is never going to result in a fair outcome.  Hillary winning on a landslide in a few highly populated counties would not have been fair either.  Yes, you are correct that some people's votes are somewhat nullified by region, but without the process we have, very large blocks of votes (like the entire group of flyover states) would be nullified.  So the trade off is Hillary was granted the head start that California and New York gave her (very large head start).  All she needed to do was bring home a few more swing states and she'd be President.  She lost fair and square.  People need to get over it. 

Just to make it clear, I really despise Hillary Clinton. As far as the people who created the process go, they didn't know what the future held. They left room and a process for correction, as they were smart enough to know that in time things would change, and that they as men were capable of making mistakes that may need correcting. They never envisioned a society where a candidate could say something like "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive" at 3AM on Twitter and have a hundred million people hear about it by morning.

Quote
I'm personally ecstatic because to millions she represented lawlessness, corruption, and elitism.  Not really sure why anyone would support *insert politically correct assignment of gender here*.

And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 01:51:26 PM by Chino »

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #200 on: December 19, 2016, 02:04:24 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.  Problem is they will never do that with identity politics that vilify rural America.  From that perspective the DNC and Hill's campaign were just stupid in their overall strategy - which shows us that they would have been incompetent leaders.  People may not like Trump's strategy, but it worked and it indicates that him and his people every bit smart enough to deal with the job at hand.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #201 on: December 19, 2016, 04:18:03 PM »
Well, there it is.  The electoral college did their jobs and voted Trump into office.  Let's hope he does a good job for everyone.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline El Barto

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #202 on: December 19, 2016, 04:42:22 PM »
Well, technically part of its job was to insure that an ignorant mob didn't elect a jackass, so we'll call it a draw.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #203 on: December 19, 2016, 05:03:24 PM »
Well, technically part of its job was to insure that an ignorant mob didn't elect a jackass, so we'll call it a draw.

This attitude is the very reason why your side lost.  We are not ignorant, we are not a mob, and despite Trump's jackass tendencies he's not a criminal elitist like his former opponent is proven to be.  Even Obama has come out and admitted that Hills lost by neglecting flyover USA.  You cannot win with only the votes of the truly ignorant mob inhabiting the nation's Mos Eisleys.  And yes, this election has proven the urban mob, the college snowflakes, and their "professors" are far more ignorant than the rural mob.     
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline TL

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #204 on: December 19, 2016, 05:08:14 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #205 on: December 19, 2016, 05:27:16 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Actually in the USA all votes are equal.  A person in California who voted for Hillary got as much out of their vote as a New Yorker voting for Trump did.  The California vote didn't help Hillary win and the New York vote didn't help Trump win.  So it only seems like one side's votes carry more weight, but they don't when you break it down.  If Hillary had won, people in Oklahoma (all red) would be feeling like their vote didn't matter either.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin

Offline El Barto

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #206 on: December 19, 2016, 05:45:44 PM »
Well, technically part of its job was to insure that an ignorant mob didn't elect a jackass, so we'll call it a draw.

This attitude is the very reason why your side lost.  We are not ignorant, we are not a mob, and despite Trump's jackass tendencies he's not a criminal elitist like his former opponent is proven to be.  Even Obama has come out and admitted that Hills lost by neglecting flyover USA.  You cannot win with only the votes of the truly ignorant mob inhabiting the nation's Mos Eisleys.  And yes, this election has proven the urban mob, the college snowflakes, and their "professors" are far more ignorant than the rural mob.   
Actually, my side was never in the running.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline eric42434224

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #207 on: December 19, 2016, 05:50:52 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Actually in the USA all votes are equal.  A person in California who voted for Hillary got as much out of their vote as a New Yorker voting for Trump did.  The California vote didn't help Hillary win and the New York vote didn't help Trump win.  So it only seems like one side's votes carry more weight, but they don't when you break it down.  If Hillary had won, people in Oklahoma (all red) would be feeling like their vote didn't matter either.

That is 100% not correct.  Due to the electoral college, voters in some states are worth more than others.
Generally, Votes in states with higher populations are worth less per electoral vote than states with lower populations.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline TL

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #208 on: December 19, 2016, 05:54:16 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Actually in the USA all votes are equal.  A person in California who voted for Hillary got as much out of their vote as a New Yorker voting for Trump did.  The California vote didn't help Hillary win and the New York vote didn't help Trump win.  So it only seems like one side's votes carry more weight, but they don't when you break it down.  If Hillary had won, people in Oklahoma (all red) would be feeling like their vote didn't matter either.

That is 100% not correct.  Due to the electoral college, voters in some states are worth more than others.
Exactly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k

So 7th, if we're in agreement that a person's vote isn't more or less valid because of where they live or because of their political preference, why have a system that circumvents the will of a plurality of Americans?

Offline 7th

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Re: How do you view the popular vote?
« Reply #209 on: December 19, 2016, 06:13:16 PM »
And there's 2.8 million people whose votes basically mean nothing who are saying the exact same thing, and more, about Trump.

True, but it is not a popular vote race.  Never has been.  The system actually worked and when you look at the results map you can see that if Hillary had one it would have been done so on the votes of a handful of major metropolitan areas.  The DNC now needs to focus on winning over the rest of the nation.
So why do you seem to think votes from Americans living in more densely populated areas are less valid than votes from Americans living in less densely populated areas?
Responding to "One candidate had a significant popular vote lead" with "But those voters live in cities!" is mind mindbogglingly silly. It's basically a non-sequitur.

I say this as someone from a country where rural/less populated areas often vote for the more left wing parties. Making an argument that certain people's votes are more or less meaningful because of where they live or who they voted for is ridiculous.

Actually in the USA all votes are equal.  A person in California who voted for Hillary got as much out of their vote as a New Yorker voting for Trump did.  The California vote didn't help Hillary win and the New York vote didn't help Trump win.  So it only seems like one side's votes carry more weight, but they don't when you break it down.  If Hillary had won, people in Oklahoma (all red) would be feeling like their vote didn't matter either.

That is 100% not correct.  Due to the electoral college, voters in some states are worth more than others.
Generally, Votes in states with higher populations are worth less per electoral vote than states with lower populations.

Nonsense.  The lower population states have lower electoral values so it evens out.
"Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners" - George Carlin