20th Anniversary of Falling Into Infinity coming up...

[rumborak]

I sometimes get the impression that FII's perceived reputation is far worse than it actually is. That is, it has been slowly creeping up in people's list over the years.

[Ravenfoul]

I sometimes get the impression that FII's perceived reputation is far worse than it actually is. That is, it has been slowly creeping up in people's list over the years.

I really liked FII. I would have liked to see one or two more albums with DS, honestly.

[KevShmev]

15 years ago, it was easy for FII to be near the bottom of the list, since its only competition was juggernauts like I&W, Awake and Scenes (and many ignored WDADU ), and it was easy to see it as the "weak link" amongst their four 90s studio albums, but as time has gone on and their list of albums has piled up, the love for it has gone up. 

As for Sherinian, in retrospect, yeah, it would have been great to see another album or two with him, but I won't lie: in 1999, I was so nuts over both LTE albums that when word got out that Rudess was replacing Sherinian, I was as thrilled as anybody.

[rumborak]

I think what places FII so firmly in my top 5 these days is that I care far less for musical antics than I used to. FII shines through having very well-rounded songs, and only a few pristine wow-factor moments.

[MirrorMask]

15 years ago, it was easy for FII to be near the bottom of the list, since its only competition was juggernauts like I&W, Awake and Scenes (and many ignored WDADU ), and it was easy to see it as the "weak link" amongst their four 90s studio albums, but as time has gone on and their list of albums has piled up, the love for it has gone up. 

Never thought of it in these terms... you're right!

[ytserush]

I've warmed to most of  it over the years (Not Anna Lee though) because it's a bit different. I wasn't much into it at the time largely because of Derek, record company pressures and the perception that there was a problem the band (which turned out to be Mike's substance abuse problem.) That baggage is no longer an issue for me.

[gzarruk]

It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).

Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.

It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.

[rumborak]

MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.

There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.

[gzarruk]

MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.

There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.

Exactly my thoughts.

If he got the album he wanted, we would've never had SFAM and that would've been terrible 
Also, the extra tracks that didn't make it to the album, with the exception of Raise the Knife (still can't conceive why would anyone let that song get cut from the album) and Metropolis pt. 2, weren't really that good. I still listen to them ocasionally, but it's not like we missed THAT much anyway.

[Madman Shepherd]

I got into DT in 2000 and was well aware of the crap spoken about FII so when I finally picked it up I couldn't figure out why people hated it so much.  You Not Me was their most mainstream sounding song up to that point but I thought it was pretty badass.  Anna Lee Hollow Years and Take Away My Pain were absolutely beautiful and the one song people seem to agree is awesome is Trial of Tears.  I never liked New Millenium or JLMB but I dug Burning My Soul.  I see how it was different that the other albums but never got the hate.

MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.

There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.

I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows.  I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot.  Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought.  When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."

Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him.  I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB.  We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too.  I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP.  So that leaves JLB.  I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this. 

Thoughts?

[gzarruk]

I got into DT in 2000 and was well aware of the crap spoken about FII so when I finally picked it up I couldn't figure out why people hated it so much.  You Not Me was their most mainstream sounding song up to that point but I thought it was pretty badass.  Anna Lee Hollow Years and Take Away My Pain were absolutely beautiful and the one song people seem to agree is awesome is Trial of Tears.  I never liked New Millenium or JLMB but I dug Burning My Soul.  I see how it was different that the other albums but never got the hate.

MP, for all his virtues and faults, always has been prone to "I will try to get you on my side of thinking, and if you still don't agree, you suck" thinking.

There obviously was a big power struggle between MP and the label, but it seems that that was much more MP's problem than anyone else's. He didn't like the end product, probably more out of principle than actual musical value, and so he railed against it at every opportunity.

I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows.  I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot.  Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought.  When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."

Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him.  I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB.  We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too.  I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP.  So that leaves JLB.  I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this. 

Thoughts?

When I first got into DT, I also made the mistake of ignoring FII. Now I think it has great moments in it.


I think the problem with people blaming MP for the band's bad choices at some point was because he was the most vocal about him being in charge of this and that and that and also that, but there's always been the other members who carried almost all the songwriting of the band.

The main problem here was, I think, the amount of creative control he wanted to have in everything, so being FII one of the few albums they did with an external producer, I can see how he didn't like being told what he was supposed to do, as opposed to JP who was, at the time, much more open to external input and production. Also, to me JP was always the "leader" of the band, that's why they could manage it pretty easily when Mike left.

It may have been James at that point, but neither him or the rest of the band ever said a bad word about the proccess of making the album, so Mike might have twisted the facts just a little bit (I'm speculating 100%) to make it sound like he was not alone with that decision.

Anyway, in his last couple years in the band, you could see the issues between MP and James, so it was all in vain 

[rumborak]

JP wasn't/isn't the leader per se. He is the songwriter, which is, no matter what other band members fancy themselves as, the equivalent band leader.

Maybe what MP could never get over.

[TAC]

I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows.  I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot.  Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought.  When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."

Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him.  I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB.  We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too.  I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP.  So that leaves JLB.  I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this. 

Thoughts?

I agree with you about JP and the music on SC. Also, I have a hard time with JLB ever siding with MP, especially during the FII era.

[Samsara]

I sometimes get the impression that FII's perceived reputation is far worse than it actually is. That is, it has been slowly creeping up in people's list over the years.

I really liked FII. I would have liked to see one or two more albums with DS, honestly.

Agreed.

I have always loved FII. But as Kev said, it has grown even more for me in terms of appreciation as the years have gone by. Thus my wish for the record's anniversary to be spotlighted by them.

[?]

I think they go into depth in Lifting Shadows.  I was surprised that there was such bad blood between Petrucci and Portnoy about JP writing with Desmond Child and whatnot.  Thats where I got the idea that JP had a lot more say in the band than people thought.  When people blamed MP for albums like SC, I kept thinking, "If JP wasn't digging it, he wouldn't do it."

Also in the book, MP talks about being outvoted about the direction of the album and band but one other bandmember sided with him.  I don't think they said who exactly sided with him but my theory is JLB.  We obviously know JP liked the more mainstream direction and opportunities that came with it and I'm assuming Derek did, too.  I think it's a safe bet that JM sided with his high school friend JP.  So that leaves JLB.  I believe around that time him and MP were actually pretty good friends and I can see him going against the grain on this. 

Thoughts?

Yeah, and even during the recording of FII, Shirley said JP re-recorded his solo on Hollow Years at the last minute, though Shirley thought he shouldn't mess with it. I think even in the MP days JP had more control in the band than he's been given credit for.

I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.

[gzarruk]

What I do remember is the ADTOE era interview where James said New Millenium is his least favorite song to sing live

[Madman Shepherd]

I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.

Good sleuthing there.  It is interesting that no other member has ever spoken ill of that album. 

Also, that was the era where their management team split up and they had to choose who to go with out of the two guys.  Mike was "shot down again" by a vote of 3-2.  So from everything you dug up from Lifting Shadows goes along with that is a pretty good indicator that it was probably James that sided with Mike. 

Also TAC, I can't remember where but I swear I read that Mike and James were actually best friends for a while and I'm pretty sure it was during that era.  I may need to reread the section where he was asked to shape up vocally because I think Mike may have made a comment about them being close at one point. 

[TAC]

I'll have to reread those sections too. I definitely don't remember that.

[Cool Chris]

Looking back, FII came out during a bad period of my life. Maybe that shades my opinion. I remember listening to it quite a bit, but it didn't resonate with me like I&W and Awake. I knew nothing about the band outside of album liner notes (didn't even know WDaDU existed) so the only thing that meant anything to me was a new keyboardist (that I'd never heard of) and a little bit more diverse lyric writing credits. I didn't know the circumstances of KM's departure, the keyboardist auditions, the band conflicts, or any of that till 2004-ish. By that time, with the release of SFaM, Live Scenes, SDoIT, ToT, and L@B, I accepted FII for how I deep down felt about it in 1997: a respectable effort that missed its mark, and failed to show how good the band could really be.

[jsbru]

It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).

Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.

It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.

I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while.  At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.

[gzarruk]

It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).

Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.

It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.

I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while.  At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.

And even the weak link songs can be enjoyable for some people. I think the main reason for the general conception that FII was bad or comertial or whatever is the fact that Portnoy spoke so bad and so loudly about it, and we all know how loud the guy can be with his opinions sometimes 

[BlobVanDam]

It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).

Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.

It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.

I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while.  At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.

And even the weak link songs can be enjoyable for some people. I think the main reason for the general conception that FII was bad or comertial or whatever is the fact that Portnoy spoke so bad and so loudly about it, and we all know how loud the guy can be with his opinions sometimes 

Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.

[jsbru]

I don't really see how it has all that more of a commercial sound than I&W or Awake, though.  You could argue that I&W was even more commercial with PMU and AD alone.

The only song on FII that strikes me as commercial is YNM.  But that was released a year after their Christmas CD with the U2 Red Hill Mining Town cover on it, so we know they were influenced by some more commercial stuff at that time anyway.  The rest of the album is pretty much classic DT with maybe one or two more ballads than normal.  PS and BMS aren't all that much different from CIAW and Lie.  LOTS and TOT are not all that much different from TTT or Scarred.  Same with NM and 6:00.  JLMB is crap, but it's not all that commercial.

[Prog Snob]

It's funny how lots of people say they basically don't like FII because of all the label interference and production decisions they/Kevin Shirley made, but I was thinking about that the other day and realised that most, if not all, of these bad comments came, in the first place, from MP's complaints about him not being able to create the album he wanted (you can google it, these are basically his words).

Even JP stated on an interview a couple years ago (https://www.rockbook.hu/hirek/john-petrucci-interview-label-didnt-have-influence-falling-infinity-album) that they made the kind of album they wanted to create and that he's proud of it.

It all makes me wonder that, if Portnoy never talked trash about the whole process and the album in general, maybe people would appreciate the album much more.

I've actually had pretty much exactly this sentiment for a while.  At the same time, it was the first album with a few weak-link songs on it--which is normal for most bands, but it wasn't for DT, who had just released I&W and Awake.

And even the weak link songs can be enjoyable for some people. I think the main reason for the general conception that FII was bad or comertial or whatever is the fact that Portnoy spoke so bad and so loudly about it, and we all know how loud the guy can be with his opinions sometimes 

Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.

I always find it in my lower five. We always disagree about what songs should have wound up on there, but I understand your confusion.  It would have been much better if it included The Way It Used To Be (instead of You Not Me), the original version of Take Away My Pain, and Speak To Me (instead of Anna Lee).

[mikeyd23]

Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.

I am very capable of making up my own mind about music, I like what I like, and I don't like what I don't like, but as a fan that discovered the band during the ToT era I steered clear of FII for a while because of MP's comments about it. Honestly, I figured this band had all this other music to check out, so why hurry to listen to the one they "sold out" on. When I did finally listen to it, I was pleasantly surprised, now it rests somewhere in the middle of my DT album rankings.

So MP's very public opinion of the record didn't change my opinion of it, but it did discourage me from checking it out for a while when I first became a fan.

[gzarruk]

Most people are very capable of making up their own minds, nothing to do with Portnoy. It seems most people here who heard the album on release had negative reactions to the album based on the more commercial sound, and expectations set by coming off IaW and Awake, long before knowing what MP thought of the album.
Personally those attributes are what I love about the album, and over time I think the general reception to the album has improved as people have gotten over their expectations. Myself included! I hated it at first, now it's one of my top DT albums.

I am very capable of making up my own mind about music, I like what I like, and I don't like what I don't like, but as a fan that discovered the band during the ToT era I steered clear of FII for a while because of MP's comments about it. Honestly, I figured this band had all this other music to check out, so why hurry to listen to the one they "sold out" on. When I did finally listen to it, I was pleasantly surprised, now it rests somewhere in the middle of my DT album rankings.

So MP's very public opinion of the record didn't change my opinion of it, but it did discourage me from checking it out for a while when I first became a fan.

This.

Also, I discovered DT around late 2009 or very early 2010, just after they released BC&SL. A friend of mine, and also a bassist, made me listen to SFAM and and watch the Metropolis 2000 DVD. I became a fan inmediately. You can imagine, after that, trying to figure out which albums I should listen after SFAM, so I went to their latest (Black Clouds) and also started reading which ones were their best ranked albums. This, of course, didn't make me too excited about FII, because of all the bad comments about it and, also, I read a lot on how Jordan and Kevin were great and Derek not so much, so that did affect my perception on the album even before listening to it.
Now, I really like it, even though it's not that high on my list either.

[bosk1]

As far as perception of the album as a whole, my initial perception of the album was fairly low, and that had nothing to do with Portnoy's comments.  As I have said, I became a fan in '92 with Images & Words.  But my fandom was fairly casual.  I loved that album.  But snippets and songs that I heard from Awake, ACOS, and FII didn't grab me, so I did not buy those albums until much later.  I was in the L.A. area a bit after FII came out, and I think it was Burning My Soul that I heard on the radio.  The overall sound of the song was okay, but the lyrics were a bit offputting.  So given that I wasn't a big fan outside of Images and Words anyway, I did not initially feel any compulsion to dig deeper into this album. 

It was not until late 1999 when I discovered SFAM and bought it on sight that I truly became a big DT fan.  That was the point where I then went back and began buying up their back catalog.  I got Awake and FII together (I think I ordered them from Amazon).  I immediately liked Awake and immediately disliked FII.  Part of it was the production and overall sound of the album, which just seemed a bit off to me, part of it was that I didn't like a few of the songs (You Not Me, Burning My Soul, Hollow Years, etc.), and part of it was the number of ballads/slower songs.  So, I initially had a fairly low impression of the album just from what I heard.  And it wasn't until several years later that I became aware of the backstory and that Portnoy did not like the album very much.

As I became familiar with the songs over time, I grew to really love the album.  I can really appreciate most of the songs now.  But that said, it still ranks more toward the bottom of the DT discography.  That isn't because it isn't good.  It is just because most of the other albums are better.

[gzarruk]

As I became familiar with the songs over time, I grew to really love the album.  I can really appreciate most of the songs now.  But that said, it still ranks more toward the bottom of the DT discography.  That isn't because it isn't good.  It is just because most of the other albums are better.

I feel the same way about many albums. Actually, I love all 13 albums and think every one of them has a unique and specia element to add to the band as a whole. Even with WDAU, which is the last one on my list, I can sit and listen to it and really like it, it's just, as you say, I like the others more

[Dublagent66]

The FII tour was my first DT show even though I've been a fan since I&W.  Great album.  Great show.  FII ranks in my top 5 at #5.

[cramx3]

Some of the biggest criticisms of FII and TA were that there were too many ballads.  The difference for me, is TA ballads are so much better than the FII ballads.  I really don't like any of them personally besides Anna Lee which is the one not liked by most others.  However, the proggiest songs Trial of Tears and Lines in the Sand really save the album for me.  Top DT tracks there.

[TAC]

I was a huge DT fan when FII came out, and after what seemed like a bit of a wait, FII was jarring, and not in a positive way. I literally thought DT had jumped the shark already. It became a 3 song album for me, Peruvian Skies, Trial Of Tears, and Lines In The Sand. And it remains so to this day. Lines is a Top 10 DT Track for me. I really wish Raise The Knife made it, but in general, the songs that ended up getting cut really aren't much better. Speak To Me is cool enough if I'm in the right mood, and Cover My Eyes is fun and all, but that era is pretty weak. It's the gawky preteen years of the band.

[gzarruk]

Agree on the songs that got cut. With the exception of Raise the Knife, the song's aren't too good imo.
I find the ballads ok on FII, but they're just ok. Still, the album has great prog moments and, to me, the BMS/HK/LITS flow is really cool, I love how one song goes into the other and into the other perfectly. TOT is amazing as well, and the solo section is one of the best they've ever had, imo. Derek's solo on that track is a highlight for his whole carreer

I think the tour was one of their worst, though. No, I didn't go to any of them (I was probably 3 years old at the time), but from the setlists I've seen, they played a lot of covers and abriged versions of some of their best songs at the time (ACOS, Metropolis, Learning to Live), which I've never been a fan of either. If you start the song, you better finish it! 

[jsbru]

If they had just made the double album and included ACOS, people would probably be ranking it right up there with the other of the first five! 

Stupid producers.

[TAC]

If they had just made the double album and included ACOS, people would probably be ranking it right up there with the other of the first five! 
 

But half of it, instead of two thirds would have been filler. ACOS was already out.







I could tell on first listen that something was amiss.

[Mosh]

I actually think FII should've been shorter, not longer. I listened to that demo set once and it was exhausting, even the album as it is feels more bloated than the average DT album (isn't it still one of their longest?)

Cut just three songs (I vote for YNM, JLMB, and BMS) and the album flows much better and there's already a big jump in quality.