Author Topic: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!  (Read 85426 times)

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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1470 on: February 12, 2017, 12:55:00 PM »
BTW, does ACOS feel slow to anyone else in the videos? Maybe it's the combination of downpitch and album speed, but it somehow feels slow slower than its "natural pace".

Yes!

I felt the same way with Trial Of Tears two years ago and on the Breaking The Fourth Wall album. Anyone?

Everything is slower without Portnoy.

Yes, or the other way round, everything was faster with MP and it sometimes hurt the songs IMO.

B.Lee

Yep. MP has a tendency to speed up songs. If you need an recent example check out the LTE stuff on the cruise he just did. He's always done it, sometimes IMO it took away from the song.

I don't hear anything wrong with the 'speed' of what MM's playing......if anything it's simply the tempo it 'should' be.

Completely agree. I think people complaining of the speed at which the songs are played now are people that are more accustomed to MP's speed when playing them.

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Online rumborak

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1471 on: February 12, 2017, 03:59:09 PM »
Nope. JP opens the tune, not the drummer. Compare LSFNY ACOS to say Prague 2017.  When left to his own devices, JP also plays the tune faster live.

I'm gonna get endless shit for this comment, but when I compared the two just now, with the Prague video I had a distinct "ugh, gotta get a new set of D batteries now" feeling  ;D (maybe only the old fogies understand that reference)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 04:16:52 PM by rumborak »
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1472 on: February 12, 2017, 06:53:44 PM »
BTW, does ACOS feel slow to anyone else in the videos? Maybe it's the combination of downpitch and album speed, but it somehow feels slow slower than its "natural pace".

Yes!

I felt the same way with Trial Of Tears two years ago and on the Breaking The Fourth Wall album. Anyone?

Everything is slower without Portnoy.

Yes, or the other way round, everything was faster with MP and it sometimes hurt the songs IMO.

B.Lee

Indeed. Just listen to New Millenium on LAB, for example. MP starts playing and all gets waaaaay too fast. MP has the tendency of speeding up the songs live so they'll feel "better". That's not really a good thing, imo.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1473 on: February 12, 2017, 07:54:17 PM »
Just listen to New Millenium on LAB, for example. MP starts playing and all gets waaaaay too fast. MP has the tendency of speeding up the songs live so they'll feel "better". That's not really a good thing, imo.
I disagree. In the live setting, it's much better to play the songs at a slightly faster pace than on the album because it heightens the excitement and the energy of the band to the audience, who feed off of that. I'm not saying that the band should play at a ridiculous pace, but playing it at the same pace as the album can be a drag, as is obvious from others who have already commented about it in this thread and in previous threads from other tours/shows. The *only* example of where I personally think the faster pace took away from a song was Disappear, and guess who set the pace for that song? Not MP, but JR.

Personally, I like the attitude that Neil Peart and Rush had towards click tracks as he mentioned in a DRUM! magazine article from 2015:
Quote
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.

I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."

On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.
I wish DT would apply the WWRD mentality in this case as they have in several others. Besides, MM is much more of a precise drummer than MP in terms of keeping time anyway, so why not utilize what they have with him naturally instead of imposing the click track on him?
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Online TAC

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1474 on: February 12, 2017, 07:55:58 PM »
You should be able to tell the difference between a live version and the studio version. On both LALP and BTFW, you really can't tell the difference.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online rumborak

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1475 on: February 12, 2017, 08:05:19 PM »
BTW, just because I'm bored, watching Mythbusters on the side:

JP opening ACOS in Prague: 86bpm (album speed)
JP opening ACOS at LSFNY: 97bpm
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1476 on: February 12, 2017, 08:07:44 PM »
The *only* example of where I personally think the faster pace took away from a song was Disappear, and guess who set the pace for that song? Not MP, but JR.

Both MP and MM have used a secret electronic drum pad with a sound only the band can hear on their in ear monitors for time keeping in drum less parts, intros of the songs, etc. MP talked about it on the run through of his albino monster kit on his MP in constant motion DVD. Also, if you have the LALP 360 app with the individual cameras (I have it), you can see MM counting in before the intros of the songs or durin the drum less parts, so easily MP counted on his secret cowbell (he used that sound) for Disappear and all the other songs as well.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Online rumborak

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1477 on: February 12, 2017, 08:11:01 PM »
Meh, I don't believe this "it was all due to MP" theory. In the new videos I have had the distinct impression that both JLB and JP have come in early at times because they were struggling to keep to the slower tempo.
And, I have never perceived ACOS on LSFNY to be rushed. It has a perfect amount of energy, IMHO.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1478 on: February 12, 2017, 08:15:04 PM »
Meh, I don't believe this "it was all due to MP" theory. In the new videos I have had the distinct impression that both JLB and JP have come in early at times because they were struggling to keep to the slower tempo.

I'm not blaming MP for anything other than speeding the songs waaaaaay to much (also overplaying a lot in live shows, but that's a topic for another time  :biggrin: ). The thing here is that people combine the fact that they use a click track now with MMs precision and technique, so call him robotic and all that.

I think using the click track is a decision made by the whole band so that they can bring the same concert experience on every show they do, which is in line with everything JP has been saying in the recent years.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1479 on: February 12, 2017, 08:19:16 PM »
The click track are used because the band wants a total theater experience with the backing tracks and the coordinated visuals. If those elementa won't go away, the click track won't go away.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1480 on: February 12, 2017, 08:21:55 PM »
The click track are used because the band wants a total theater experience with the backing tracks and the coordinated visuals. If those elementa won't go away, the click track won't go away.

This.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1481 on: February 12, 2017, 08:37:40 PM »
Could they ever speed up the click track a bit and make the videos and lights sync to the faster speed. Obviously they'd have to do this at the start of the tour (I think) but could they do that in the future?
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1482 on: February 12, 2017, 08:40:20 PM »
Could they ever speed up the click track a bit and make the videos and lights sync to the faster speed. Obviously they'd have to do this at the start of the tour (I think) but could they do that in the future?

I imagine that's something they would have to do at the pre-production stage, not during the tour.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1483 on: February 12, 2017, 08:42:40 PM »
They could do that, but personally, I don't think that the speed in itself is the problem some viewers are feeling. Rather, it's the feeling of a fixed tempo, which does not allow the band to adjust their speed based on the energy of the crowd or to allow for more improvised parts.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1484 on: February 12, 2017, 08:45:50 PM »
The click track are used because the band wants a total theater experience with the backing tracks and the coordinated visuals. If those elementa won't go away, the click track won't go away.

Rush used coordinated visuals and occasional backing tracks for 30 years and almost never played to a click (as SS showed above).  It can be done.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1485 on: February 12, 2017, 08:51:35 PM »
The *only* example of where I personally think the faster pace took away from a song was Disappear, and guess who set the pace for that song? Not MP, but JR.
Both MP and MM have used a secret electronic drum pad with a sound only the band can hear on their in ear monitors for time keeping in drum less parts, intros of the songs, etc. MP talked about it on the run through of his albino monster kit on his MP in constant motion DVD. Also, if you have the LALP 360 app with the individual cameras (I have it), you can see MM counting in before the intros of the songs or durin the drum less parts, so easily MP counted on his secret cowbell (he used that sound) for Disappear and all the other songs as well.
But the thing is that MP didn't. I asked him about this and he hadn't even realized it until I brought it up but said that JR was the one who started off Disappear and set the pace.
 
 
I'm not blaming MP for anything other than speeding the songs waaaaaay to much (also overplaying a lot in live shows, but that's a topic for another time  :biggrin: ). The thing here is that people combine the fact that they use a click track now with MMs precision and technique, so call him robotic and all that.
Just like rumbo, I've never noticed the songs being played too fast with MP and I've listened to literally hundreds of bootlegs, aside from that single example of Disappear. And not to get off topic, but since you brought it up, I'd beg to differ regarding MP supposedly overplaying in the live setting - interesting how people have been commenting that MM's playing on the current leg for several songs is meh. Sounds like this supposed overplaying is what would serve those songs best.  :P
 
 
The click track are used because the band wants a total theater experience with the backing tracks and the coordinated visuals. If those elementa won't go away, the click track won't go away.
Rush used coordinated visuals and occasional backing tracks for 30 years and almost never played to a click (as SS showed above).  It can be done.
Exactly. That's not an excuse just to rely on it, especially given that Rush's light/video show has always been much more extensive that DT's.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 08:57:32 PM by Setlist Scotty »
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Adami

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1486 on: February 12, 2017, 08:56:40 PM »
Personally I think DT should start using washers and dryers on stage and sync them up to the click track so they can have fresh stage clothing by intermission.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1487 on: February 12, 2017, 09:01:25 PM »
The click track are used because the band wants a total theater experience with the backing tracks and the coordinated visuals. If those elementa won't go away, the click track won't go away.

Rush used coordinated visuals and occasional backing tracks for 30 years and almost never played to a click (as SS showed above).  It can be done.

Yes, it can. But I imagine that DT's use of the click helped them maintain a leaner touring staff, with lights and sounds staff focused on the functioning of the equipment rather than operating them in time with the band.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1488 on: February 12, 2017, 09:20:45 PM »
The click track are used because the band wants a total theater experience with the backing tracks and the coordinated visuals. If those elementa won't go away, the click track won't go away.
Rush used coordinated visuals and occasional backing tracks for 30 years and almost never played to a click (as SS showed above).  It can be done.
Yes, it can. But I imagine that DT's use of the click helped them maintain a leaner touring staff, with lights and sounds staff focused on the functioning of the equipment rather than operating them in time with the band.
As I said, Rush's set up has always been far more complex than DT's. And on top of that, certainly for the backing tracks that Rush used, the band has always been clear that they were the ones that triggered that sort of thing, instead of simply following something pre-programmed. I wouldn't be surprised if DT has the same number of guys manning the lighting and video desks as Rush does, and if the Rush guys didn't trigger certain video or lighting cues, they would - I'm failing to see why the same couldn't be true in DT's case.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1489 on: February 12, 2017, 09:35:39 PM »
I think DT has a 40-man crew during the TA tour. How large is Rush's crew?

Online rumborak

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1490 on: February 12, 2017, 09:36:54 PM »
Did Rush ever have backing vocals? That might be the key difference between the two. If you want to use backing tracks everywhere you need to use click.
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Offline Adami

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1491 on: February 12, 2017, 09:38:23 PM »
Did Rush ever have backing vocals? That might be the key difference between the two. If you want to use backing tracks everywhere you need to use click.

They have a good amount of backing track vocals. I honestly have no clue how they pull it off as perfectly as they do if they're not using clicks. I always assumed they did.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1492 on: February 12, 2017, 09:39:43 PM »
Rush had moments where backing vocals were used or where a Geddy counterpoint vocal was triggered, like the chorus of Dreamline where the harmonies were always triggered, while Geddy sang the leads.  The key for Rush was that their backing tracks were always triggered in real time by the band members on stage, not by someone off stage or a case where they played to a prerecorded backing track for 4-5 minutes.

Offline Adami

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1493 on: February 12, 2017, 09:45:13 PM »
The triggers are so perfectly in sync, that I am honestly in awe of Peart for being able to keep such perfect time. Jesus that's impressive.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1494 on: February 12, 2017, 09:46:28 PM »
I think DT has a 40-man crew during the TA tour. How large is Rush's crew?
You're missing the point. You don't need to have a ton of extra people standing around to press a button in real time any more than a DJ needs a bunch of extra people to do the same thing. As I said, I'm pretty sure Rush had 2 guys at the lighting desk and another 2 at the video desk; if they were assigned to trigger certain lights or videos at a specific time, one of them would have done it. I'd wager that DT probably has 2 guys doing video and another 2 doing video - that's what I remember when I got to meet up with the band while they were rehearsing for the first North American leg of the Chaos in Motion tour, altho that was 9.5 years ago so I might be off. Nonetheless, if I'm right, I doubt that number has dropped since then.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1495 on: February 12, 2017, 10:41:39 PM »
The triggers are so perfectly in sync, that I am honestly in awe of Peart for being able to keep such perfect time. Jesus that's impressive.

Well, on a technical level, the problem really is cumulative drift. That is, if your backing track is in 90bpm but you play in 89bpm, you incur an error of one beat in a minute. That's a lot. But, that's if you only do one trigger and let it run forever.
If Rush had each backing line as a separate trigger, and Neil triggered each of them independently, the start of each was in perfect sync, and the total drift would never exceed anything noticeable.
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Offline Adami

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1496 on: February 12, 2017, 10:45:56 PM »
The triggers are so perfectly in sync, that I am honestly in awe of Peart for being able to keep such perfect time. Jesus that's impressive.

Well, on a technical level, the problem really is cumulative drift. That is, if your backing track is in 90bpm but you play in 89bpm, you incur an error of one beat in a minute. That's a lot. But, that's if you only do one trigger and let it run forever.
If Rush had each backing line as a separate trigger, and Neil triggered each of them independently, the start of each was in perfect sync, and the total drift would never exceed anything noticeable.

If they're very short triggers, but often times it was an entire chorus, with brief pauses between harmonies. I guess it's possible every single line was triggered independently, but I somehow doubt that.
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Online rumborak

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1497 on: February 13, 2017, 07:27:42 AM »
Well, he is also consistently in the top 10 of Top Drummer's, so there's that :lol
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1498 on: February 13, 2017, 09:53:36 AM »
You should be able to tell the difference between a live version and the studio version. On both LALP and BTFW, you really can't tell the difference.

As far as tempo is concerned? If so, no, the tempo doesn't have to be changed to make it a live version. Btw, I can always tell when it is a live version with DT : it's just not as good as the studio version IMO.  :biggrin:
On a more serious note, I always buy DT's live DVDs / blurays when they are released but I only watch them once or twice and always come back to the studio versions of the songs which I can listen to a lot.

B.Lee
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 11:16:27 AM by Bertielee »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1499 on: February 13, 2017, 11:32:41 AM »
I'm not blaming MP for anything other than speeding the songs waaaaaay to much (also overplaying a lot in live shows, but that's a topic for another time  :biggrin: ). The thing here is that people combine the fact that they use a click track now with MMs precision and technique, so call him robotic and all that.
Just like rumbo, I've never noticed the songs being played too fast with MP and I've listened to literally hundreds of bootlegs, aside from that single example of Disappear.

I think you can maybe point to a few more examples than that.  For instance, MP pushed the tempo in The Glass Prison to the point that JP would regularly get tripped up on what were already nearly-impossible difficulty level parts.  So it's not like it never happened at all.  But that said,
(1) Even with that song, he made the judgment call that that pace served the energy of the song, and I think 99% of any given audience probably agreed and barely noticed/minded some minor slip-ups on some of the sweeps and guitar runs in light of the energy being given off.
(2) No matter how many minor examples we can come up with at the end of the day, it is still a relatively small number.
So, at the end of the day, it's a judgment call.  And no matter what the call, you are going to have people saying "too fast" or "too slow."  If some people feel MP was a bit too fast, it hardly ruined the songs.  If some feel the click makes the songs too slow, it hardly ruins the songs.  It is what it is.
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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1500 on: February 13, 2017, 11:36:28 AM »
If some people feel MP was a bit too fast, it hardly ruined the songs.  If some feel the click makes the songs too slow, it hardly ruins the songs.  It is what it is.

This. But I am part of the group that enjoys the live faster feel for songs, than the album paced click track.  I just love the live energy when a song is played a bit faster.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1501 on: February 13, 2017, 02:05:07 PM »
You should be able to tell the difference between a live version and the studio version. On both LALP and BTFW, you really can't tell the difference.

As far as tempo is concerned? If so, no, the tempo doesn't have to be changed to make it a live version. Btw, I can always tell when it is a live version with DT : it's just not as good as the studio version IMO.  :biggrin:
On a more serious note, I always buy DT's live DVDs / blurays when they are released but I only watch them once or twice and always come back to the studio versions of the songs which I can listen to a lot.

B.Lee

Eh, there's quite a few DT tracks where I prefer the live version. Some can be found on the DVDs of Budokan, Score, Luna Park, and BTFW.

Offline Bertielee

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1502 on: February 13, 2017, 02:30:20 PM »
You should be able to tell the difference between a live version and the studio version. On both LALP and BTFW, you really can't tell the difference.

As far as tempo is concerned? If so, no, the tempo doesn't have to be changed to make it a live version. Btw, I can always tell when it is a live version with DT : it's just not as good as the studio version IMO.  :biggrin:
On a more serious note, I always buy DT's live DVDs / blurays when they are released but I only watch them once or twice and always come back to the studio versions of the songs which I can listen to a lot.

B.Lee

Eh, there's quite a few DT tracks where I prefer the live version. Some can be found on the DVDs of Budokan, Score, Luna Park, and BTFW.

I get what you say, but that's not the case for me. I don't say that I don't enjoy live versions of the songs, far from it, as some are very good, but eventually, I'll keep coming back to the studio versions if not for the better polish, if that makes sense.

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Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1503 on: February 14, 2017, 09:00:52 AM »
You should be able to tell the difference between a live version and the studio version. On both LALP and BTFW, you really can't tell the difference.

As far as tempo is concerned? If so, no, the tempo doesn't have to be changed to make it a live version. Btw, I can always tell when it is a live version with DT : it's just not as good as the studio version IMO.  :biggrin:
On a more serious note, I always buy DT's live DVDs / blurays when they are released but I only watch them once or twice and always come back to the studio versions of the songs which I can listen to a lot.

B.Lee

Eh, there's quite a few DT tracks where I prefer the live version. Some can be found on the DVDs of Budokan, Score, Luna Park, and BTFW.

I get what you say, but that's not the case for me. I don't say that I don't enjoy live versions of the songs, far from it, as some are very good, but eventually, I'll keep coming back to the studio versions if not for the better polish, if that makes sense.

B.Lee

Same for me. I listen to the studio versions all the time and the live versions not so much.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline pcs90

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Re: DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!
« Reply #1504 on: February 15, 2017, 12:52:57 AM »
What I generally do is listen to the studio versions the most, but for live shows I will sometimes make an instrumental mix if I can make it flow. I mostly do this because I prefer how James sounds in the studio, but still like the instrumentals live too.

As for tempo, it depends on the song for me. Some songs can really benefit from increasing the tempo live, and some just feel rushed. I would honestly rather DT not use a click, but it's not up to me. MM already has great timing as it is, but it also allows them to change tempos a bit when desired like they used to.