Marvel's Movie/TV Universe v2 (SPOILERS)

[hefdaddy42]

Also I'm a little worried about Iron Fist. It's getting not great reviews thus far, and the response from people involved is essentially "Well this was made for the fans, not the critics" which is what they usually say about awful properties. I remember that being the defending line against Suicide Squad and BvS.

Some of the criticism seems to be of whitewashing, which frankly I am shrugging off because it is coming from people who have no knowledge of the original comics.

The more troublesome criticism I have seen is that it's boring, which seems hard to believe given the character involved, and the lack of his costume, which is a huge missed opportunity.

We'll see.

[axeman90210]

Yeah, I've seen a couple critics who I generally like and who have liked to loved the other Marvel series come out with pretty negative opinions about Iron Fist. I'll still probably watch it at some point, but I'm not in any rush to do so.

[faizoff]

I just finished Luke Cage and despite what I've read about how people found it too slow or boring, I thought it was an excellent series and very well done. Aside from a few things here and there I have no complaints about it. I think from the Marvel-Netflix shows so far season one of Luke Cage is my second favorite after the first season of Daredevil. I liked it more than Jessica Jones.

I like the more measured tone and slower buildup with a ton more characterization being developed. And if my crush for Rosario Dawson wasn't already so high, after that series it's way higher.

[Adami]

I thought Luke Cage was damn near perfect until the whole brother bad guy storyline. I think if they had solely focused on Maharshala and his sister, that would have been incredible. So basically 10 episodes instead of 13 or how many ever.

[faizoff]

I didn't mind the last few episode with the shift of story lines. I thought it was still great. Though I do admit that I think Netfilx/Marvel can easily trim the content down to 10 episodes per season and make it stellar show season after season.

[BlackInk]

I liked Luke Cage for the most part, but yeah that brother thing really messed it up for me. Also, Luke himself isn't a very interesting character. Easily my least favorite of the Netflix shows so far.

[Zantera]

Luke Cage was a bit of a disappointment to me sadly because even though I liked him as the main character, I could not stand Shades, and Diamondback was channeling Tommy Lee Jones from Batman Forever or something. That show did not handle tone very well for me. You have these moments trying to be serious and dealing with black people and their daily struggle in Harlem due to racism, and then you have the main "boss" show up in his business suit with a bazooka blowing up a diner, a scene that felt taken out of an animated kids show or something. For the most part I enjoyed the show but that final battle was Rocky V levels of cringe and the show just derailed somewhere when the first bad guy (who was good overall IMO) left and the focus switched to Diamondback.

Kinda sucks seeing the terrible reviews for Iron Fist so far.

[jingle.boy]

I thought Luke Cage was damn near perfect until the whole brother bad guy storyline. I think if they had solely focused on Maharshala and his sister, that would have been incredible. So basically 10 episodes instead of 13 or how many ever.

And the finale was just a massive lunch-bag letdown.  No closure whatsoever between anyone.  It's like the ending was specifically written as a mid-season finale so that both rivalry's could be resurrectued.  At least with Daredevil 1, Fisk was arrested/convicted; Daredevil 2, everyone thought Elektra was killed, and The Hand vanquished; JJ... Kilgrave is dead.  With Luke Cage, it didn't feel like a 'finale' at all.

[ariich]

Yeah Diamondback was just too cartoony and over the time for the tone of the Defenders shows. I agree that the show was really strong up until they killed off Cottonmouth.

Don't have any particular expectations for Iron Fist. Bit of a shame if it's quite slow moving, but that in itself doesn't really bother me, so I'll be keeping an open mind.

The race complaints are ludicrous on this occasion though. A number of reviewers have been asking why they didn't cast an Asian American. Er, maybe because that's not the character? Bizarre.

[Cyclopssss]

Luke Cage's ending was hugely dissapointing to me. That fight was just ludicrous. How many times do you have to tell someone in a comic show to grab the shiny flashing thing on the back of the opponent's suit?! Come on! Up until then it was ok, but not up to the standard by Daredevil and Jessica Jones in a long shot, in my opinion.

[faizoff]

All valid points though like I said I didn't mind the shift to a more comic booky villain and ending.

[hefdaddy42]

I really liked the first half of Luke Cage, but after Cottonmouth died, the second half of the show really went downhill. 

[jingle.boy]

I really liked the first half of Luke Cage, but after Cottonmouth died, the second half of the show really went downhill.

While I missed Cottonmouth, I could've handled more focus on Mariah and Shades as the villains - and always wondering who was really pulling whose strings.  It was Diamondback's character and backstory that really didn't click with me.

[ariich]

Only watched the first Iron Fist episode but I'm digging it so far.

[Adami]

Saw the first two Iron Fists. Will keep watching tomorrow.

It's..........okay. They picked the wrong story to do, sadly and the writing/directing is well below par. I think if they got great writers/directors, and a better overall storyline, the show could be great.

Finn Jones is getting a lot of heat for playing a boring Rand, but as of now the dude isn't given anything to work with. There's only so far "I'm Danny Rand!" can take you.

[aurorablind]

I've seen the first five episodes and I'm liking it so far. It's a slow start, yes, but the story is picking up, and I'm sure it will become more intense in the second part of the season.
I'm torn about the story. They've made a few poor choices, but it's really not as bad as some reviews say. It's a bit like Luke Cage in the sense that it's going to slow at parts..The difference is that Iron Fist starts out really slow and keeps going that way for a good chunk of time. It's very apparent that the main reason this show exists is to build up to The Defenders. 

[BlackInk]

Seen the first episode. Aside from characters being generally frustrating and one bad CG bird I'm interested in the story.

[BlackInk]

Second episode was much better.

[ariich]

Second episode was much better.

Yeah it's building already. Slowly, but it has some great tension.

This is why I can't stand critics.

EDIT: Four episodes in and I'm really enjoying it. If it continues to build like this and they don't do a Luke Cage curveball for the last few episodes then I can see this being not far off DD and JJ (though probably still a step below). God I hate critics so much.

[Adami]

Well you and the critics have different agendas.

Most people watch a show simply to be entertained. A critic has to dive deeper into it.

They have to look at story, writing, directing, acting, structure, art, etc etc.

Is Iron First entertaining? Yea. Mostly (so far for me at least, only on episode 3).

Is the writing good? Not especially.
Is the directing good? Not really.
Is the acting good? Mostly, (aside from the one bad guy's son) but they're not given much to work with.
Is the story very good? Not especially.
But is it entertaining? Mostly, yea.

So it's very possible for you to enjoy a show and a critic to really dislike it. They're looking for things you aren't.

Also, like I said, just on the 3rd episode, but if we could please stop using the phrase "I'm Danny Rand!", that would be great.

[ariich]

Well you and the critics have different agendas.

Most people watch a show simply to be entertained. A critic has to dive deeper into it.

They have to look at story, writing, directing, acting, structure, art, etc etc.

Is Iron First entertaining? Yea. Mostly (so far for me at least, only on episode 3).

Is the writing good? Not especially.
Is the directing good? Not really.
Is the acting good? Mostly, (aside from the one bad guy's son) but they're not given much to work with.
Is the story very good? Not especially.
But is it entertaining? Mostly, yea.

So it's very possible for you to enjoy a show and a critic to really dislike it. They're looking for things you aren't.

Also, like I said, just on the 3rd episode, but if we could please stop using the phrase "I'm Danny Rand!", that would be great.

I think this is very generous to critics (ok there are some good ones). Obviously we all like being entertained by entertainment, but to suggest that critics are the only ones who think more deeply about it is a little silly. In this case, too, the clear indications are that most of these critics have been thinking LESS deeply, especially with all the "white-washing" gibberish.

I also don't see what's supposedly so bad about the story, writing and directing, other than the fact that it's a very slow build (which there's nothing inherently bad about, though personally I'd prefer the directing to be a little pacier).

[Zantera]

I think the biggest thing people tend to overlook in the critics vs fans debate is the fact that many of us regular people either have very specific taste or we absorb our entertainment in pretty limited form compared to critics. If you're a critic and you get paid to sit through a shitload of new media (movies and tv-shows), I would imagine certain story telling devices, arcs and tropes become very familiar to the point of "yeah this is doing nothing new".

[King Postwhore]

I also think that some critics have biases to certain genres and that can come through on their reviews.  I've seen that in music reviews as well

[Adami]

I guess it really depends on the critics. I have a few youtube people I really trust, and that I know love this genre and love Daredevil, JJ, Luke Cage etc etc, but still didn't like Iron Fist.

I think Iron Fist is definitely the weakest of the four Defenders so far, but I think it's still mostly pretty good and (as of the 6th episode) is getting much better, despite some weak storytelling and bad directing. I'm not sure IF will get a season 2 after this response, but if they do, they have the opportunity to really do a great job with a potentially great character.

I think one example of poor storytelling so far is that we spent like 3 or 4 episodes on the whole "I'm Danny Rand!" story line which led nowhere, accomplished nothing and is totally irrelevant to the actual story line that is now just starting to take shape. It was just a waste of time.


That said, I do think in this case it was a case of a few critics genuinely not liking it and then when other people heard that, they were primed already to not like it and went in with that subconscious slant. I remember seeing a youtube show where someone was talking about how bad IF was but then admitted he never watched any of it but was just saying it based off what other critics had said. That's not cool.

[Adami]

On episode 8 now, and I just keep thinking...
















.......why isn't Claire calling Daredevil? Seriously.

[ariich]

I think one example of poor storytelling so far is that we spent like 3 or 4 episodes on the whole "I'm Danny Rand!" story line which led nowhere, accomplished nothing and is totally irrelevant to the actual story line that is now just starting to take shape. It was just a waste of time.

See, this makes no sense to me. I haven't read the comics so don't know if it's a carry over, but in the show Danny Rand is clearly meant to be someone who doesn't fit in anywhere, a fish out of water. His frustration at nobody believing him in the first 2-3 episodes is absolutely a part of setting that up. You may not have found it interesting, but it's entirely relevant to the character story.

That said, I do think in this case it was a case of a few critics genuinely not liking it and then when other people heard that, they were primed already to not like it and went in with that subconscious slant. I remember seeing a youtube show where someone was talking about how bad IF was but then admitted he never watched any of it but was just saying it based off what other critics had said. That's not cool.

Agreed, it has become pretty obvious that a number of critics have gone in expecting not to like it (or possibly just being extra sceptical because of the stupid race thing) and so are judging it incredibly unfairly.

[Podaar]

On episode 8 now, and I just keep thinking...

.......why isn't Claire calling Daredevil? Seriously.

Haha, we just finished episode 5 last night and I thought, "She should just go talk with Mathew, he could tell Danny all about the Hand's activities in New York.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm now 9 episodes in with Iron Fist.  I thought the first episode was pretty "meh" and I was worried, but it has definitely picked up since then.  It still has 4 episodes to go, so there is definitely still time for it to go off the rails, but to this point, I would rank it ahead of Luke Cage, which was really hurt by the back half of that season.

For me, the biggest problem is the writing, and specifically the writing of Danny Rand and his personality.  His whole schtick of fucking shit up because he doesn't know anything gets a little tired after a while (I get it, kind of, but come on, learn some shit), and I don't buy that a guy whose ENTIRE PURPOSE is defeating/destroying the Hand would withdraw from that Grand Duel just to save one girl's life.  Heroic? Sure.  Smart/in line with 15 years of training?  Not really.

But definitely entertaining so far.

I do, however, think they missed a huge opportunity by leaving out some version of his uniform.

[soupytwist]

Three episodes in and i'm really struggling.  I've read a few reviews and it sounds like it doesn't really get any better (the final episode is really panned).   I suppose I will have to finish it as probably important to the defenders, but I definately won't be rushing though it.

Just found out the showrunner for this was the showrunner for the final 3 seasons of Dexter......ouch.

[Bolsters]

Just found out the showrunner for this was the showrunner for the final 3 seasons of Dexter......ouch.

How does that person still get work?

[ariich]

For me, the biggest problem is the writing, and specifically the writing of Danny Rand and his personality.  His whole schtick of fucking shit up because he doesn't know anything gets a little tired after a while (I get it, kind of, but come on, learn some shit), and I don't buy that a guy whose ENTIRE PURPOSE is defeating/destroying the Hand would withdraw from that Grand Duel just to save one girl's life.  Heroic? Sure.  Smart/in line with 15 years of training?  Not really.

I honestly have no problem with his character or the writing (based on 6 episodes so far), and I liked that particular scene as a moment where he was really torn between what he's been training for and the kind of person he wants to be. Part of him not fitting in. But each to their own, and I guess I can understand why some might get bored of that theme.

[Adami]

For me, the biggest problem is the writing, and specifically the writing of Danny Rand and his personality.  His whole schtick of fucking shit up because he doesn't know anything gets a little tired after a while (I get it, kind of, but come on, learn some shit), and I don't buy that a guy whose ENTIRE PURPOSE is defeating/destroying the Hand would withdraw from that Grand Duel just to save one girl's life.  Heroic? Sure.  Smart/in line with 15 years of training?  Not really.

I honestly have no problem with his character or the writing (based on 6 episodes so far), and I liked that particular scene as a moment where he was really torn between what he's been training for and the kind of person he wants to be. Part of him not fitting in. But each to their own, and I guess I can understand why some might get bored of that theme.

I'm glad you're loving all of it. I'm still enjoying it immensely, but I do have a good amount of problems. I think both perspectives are equally cool, yea?

[ariich]

Absolutely, hence "each to their own".

I'm not loving it nearly as much as JJ and to some extent DD. It's a little on the slow side for my tastes, I really think they could have turned these 55 minute episodes into 45 minute ones and it would have felt a bit more exciting. But that's my only real complaint, otherwise I'm digging it immensely. Unless it goes off track towards the end like Luke Cage did then I think I'll be ranking it third out of the four.

[hefdaddy42]

Unless it goes off track towards the end like Luke Cage did then I think I'll be ranking it third out of the four.

Same.

[Adami]

Also, man Colleen Wing sure is yummy.