Author Topic: Star Trek: Thread Space 9  (Read 8780 times)

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #560 on: January 10, 2017, 01:23:27 PM »
Yeah Krall's motivation was my one beef with the film. But it didn't ruin it for me.

You just got all the info in one scene.

Oh Krall used to be Balthazar who was Captain of the Franklin. He crashed on this planet and has lived 100 years leeching off the lifeforce of others.

The Federation never came looking for them so he wants them all dead ?

But I do like the irony of him hating diversity and unity - when it is diversity and unity which has kept him alive.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #561 on: January 11, 2017, 08:56:17 AM »
Into Darkness is far far away from being The Wrath of Khan remake everyone says.
It's not a remake of TWOK.  It's an inversion/perversion of TWOK.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #562 on: January 11, 2017, 09:18:42 AM »
It's an inversion of one scene from TWOK. Not the entire film.


The Force Awakens is A New Hope copy and paste.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #563 on: January 11, 2017, 10:17:48 AM »
Come on, it's more than just the one scene.  How about the entire character?  The name, the character and history, and of course the way he wasn't even Khan in the first place, then partway through the film he "revealed" himself, which was completely stupid.  Also they forgot (or more likely ignored) that what made him one of Kirk's greatest adversaries was their history, which was completely absent.

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #564 on: January 11, 2017, 10:25:30 AM »
^Yep^

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #565 on: January 11, 2017, 10:26:56 AM »
Come on, it's more than just the one scene.  How about the entire character?  The name, the character and history, and of course the way he wasn't even Khan in the first place, then partway through the film he "revealed" himself, which was completely stupid.  Also they forgot (or more likely ignored) that what made him one of Kirk's greatest adversaries was their history, which was completely absent.

Well fuck me. Imagine having Khan in a Star trek movie and him having the same name... :lolpalm:

So you're saying it was more than just the one scene then went on to name exactly 0 other scenes copied from TWOK.

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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #566 on: January 11, 2017, 10:37:29 AM »
Right.  It was more than just the one scene; it was the entire premise.  I didn't say "there were more scenes".

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #567 on: January 11, 2017, 10:38:20 AM »
So any film they did - regardless of how good it was - with Space Seed era Khan in - would be a TWOK remake ?




-----------

I'm not arguing for the sake of it. I know the film has many flaws. I enjoy it nonetheless. But there is literally only one "scene" taken from STAR TREK II THE WRATH OF KHAN.

Having Khan in a Star Trek movie doesn't automatically make the entire film a WRATH OF KHAN remake.

Why isn't it a SPACE SEED remake ?
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Online BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #568 on: January 11, 2017, 10:48:24 AM »
They tried to copy the Spock/Kirk dynamic throughout to make that reverse copy of the death scene from TWOK work, except they didn't have 90 hours of TV showing established friendship to back it up with any substance. It just fell flat as an empty parody of a much better movie. "I hated you two hours ago but now we're BFFs."
They tried to copy Khan as a villian, except without the backing of a personal vendetta growing over 15 years and a pre-existing knowledge to give it any substance. It also fell flat because they didn't know who the hell he was. Cue crickets sound when he reveals to them his real name. Ok, your name is Khan. That's very interesting Mr British White Male.
They introduced Carol Marcus, except with no relation at all to what her character was to Kirk or TWOK, her only purpose was to be objectified as eye candy, and possibly as a red herring to throw off fans as to which TOS story they were copying (same goes for Khan).

No, the movie isn't a direct copy of TWOK, but official remakes often aren't either. I've seen remakes that borrowed less from the source material. They take the key elements, and create something new from it. I like the way hef put it. It's an inversion/perversion of TWOK. :lol
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #569 on: January 11, 2017, 11:02:19 AM »
I'd say it has as much in common with Space Seed.

It mentions Marcus finding the Botany bay and the ship waking up just Khan.

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #570 on: January 11, 2017, 11:03:27 AM »
The events of the Botany Bay being discovered and Khan waking up are established as in the past already, as they were in TWOK. If it was based on Space Seed, those events would have occurred in the movie.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #571 on: January 11, 2017, 11:18:29 AM »
Well into Darkness is set before the 5 year mission so it hasn't happened yet ( for Kirk ). Marcus finds him instead.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #572 on: January 11, 2017, 12:07:21 PM »
It was more than just the one scene; it was the entire premise.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #573 on: January 11, 2017, 12:13:44 PM »
Enlighten me.  And don't just say " it had Khan in ".

That's not a plot.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #574 on: January 11, 2017, 12:38:56 PM »
You can't be serious.

It took the character of Khan and his history, and his relationship with Kirk, as played out in TWOK (and the original episode "Space Seed"), as well as Kirk and Spock's relationship as epitomized in TWOK (without the intervening history to actually ground it), and twisted all of it around to cram it into this new timeline, changing this and reversing that, and then had the balls to try to hide the character of Khan behind the facade of John Harrison, as if Khan would ever sacrifice his pride enough to pretend to be someone or something other than what he is.

Come on, man.  I'm not saying that it isn't a well-made movie, for what it is.  But what it is is a bastardization.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #575 on: January 11, 2017, 12:46:25 PM »
As I said before - having Khan in a Trek movie doesn't automatically make it a *TWOK REMAKE*.

Blofeld is in Spectre - but that's hardly a remake of You Only Live Twice...

" It takes Kirk & Spock's relationship from all of Star Trek "

In a Star trek movie. Imagine that.

Next you'll be saying Into Darkness is a TWOK remake because Scotty is the engineer.


- - - - - -

You're talking broad strokes. I'm asking for Specific Scenes.

The engine room death scene.

What else ?

Two spaceships facing off at the end.

Like that never happened in III, V, VI, VII, Insurrection & Nemesis - ( an ACTUAL TWOK remake ).


- - - - - -

I'm only asking for specifics as to what other scenes ID used from TWOK. I'm not arguing just because I enjoyed it. I know it has flaws. Even more than ST09.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #576 on: January 11, 2017, 01:15:29 PM »
Why do you keep focusing on scenes?

You don't think the character, his name, and his backstory count for anything, that they're just "broad strokes"?


Also, Blofeld's appearance in SPECTRE is his origin story.


Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #577 on: January 11, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
So...

According to this board...

Any New Trek film starring Khan as a villain would be a Wrath of Khan REMAKE.

Got it.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #578 on: January 11, 2017, 01:34:34 PM »
So...

According to this board...

Any New Trek film starring Khan as a villain would be a Wrath of Khan REMAKE.

Got it.

Well, while I haven't seen the whole movie (couldn't stomach past 40 or so minutes), it's about Khan....and his wrath.  :biggrin:
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #579 on: January 11, 2017, 01:39:24 PM »
If the next one mentions Borg - it would be a complete First Contact copy and paste.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #580 on: January 11, 2017, 01:42:32 PM »
If the next one mentions Borg - it would be a complete First Contact copy and paste.

Exactly!

Thank you for embracing our logic. Resistance is......pointless.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #581 on: January 11, 2017, 01:46:21 PM »
Apparently so...
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #582 on: January 11, 2017, 01:48:04 PM »
And now you've also learned that Star Trek: Voayger is a remake of TMP since it mentions Voyager. A lot.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #583 on: January 11, 2017, 01:49:54 PM »
And now you've also learned that Star Trek: Voayger is a remake of TMP since it mentions Voyager. A lot.

[/dtf logic]
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Online El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #584 on: January 11, 2017, 01:50:22 PM »
As much as it pains me to do so, I have to agree with KTB. Unlike him I thought the movie sucked, but from a story standpoint it had almost nothing in common with TWoK aside from the stupid death scene. The problem is that stupid death scene invited the comparison. You don't get to rip off a famous scene and then fight back when people draw the comparison. In any event, it's a completely different story involving a classic character from the ST universe.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #585 on: January 11, 2017, 01:56:06 PM »
Finally.

And for me just the plot makes no sense. I loved the visuals, the pacing and the acting.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #586 on: January 11, 2017, 01:57:31 PM »
Finally.

Oh I was agreeing with you, just using irony instead of being direct.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #587 on: January 11, 2017, 02:20:31 PM »
Drawing on comments others have made, it occurs to me that part of the problem with the three JJ movies is that there is no character history. Khan (the movie) worked so well because we understood the Kirk and Spock friendship. We understood why Khan was so pissed off. We understood Kirk's career trajectory. You can make a character driven movie with that degree of background. With the JJ movies who the hell knew anything about these assholes? They've got familiar personalities, but the dynamics are absent. When you factor in that there has to be 1 minute of explosions, chases or fights for every minute of dialogue, there's just no chance for anything meaningful. I thought the alternate timeline was a pretty good idea from the standpoint of getting them out of canon holes, but in retrospect it really did a huge disservice to the movies they were making.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #588 on: January 11, 2017, 02:25:59 PM »
I think 2009 is good and Beyond is really good.

Into Darkness is just a mess script wise but is still entertaining and looks good and is acted well but thats it.
Star Trek Beyond is the 3rd greatest Star Trek movie.

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #589 on: January 11, 2017, 02:37:40 PM »
As I said before - having Khan in a Trek movie doesn't automatically make it a *TWOK REMAKE*.
No one disagreed with that (that I saw).  It isn't a remake.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #590 on: January 11, 2017, 02:42:23 PM »
As I said before - having Khan in a Trek movie doesn't automatically make it a *TWOK REMAKE*.
No one disagreed with that (that I saw).  It isn't a remake.

It's less a remake of TWOK than Force Awakens is of A New Hope. That film borrows a shit - ton.

However - As I said before. STID is not a very good ST movie but TFA is a very good SW movie.

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #591 on: January 11, 2017, 02:50:44 PM »
In other news - seen a comment online that Final Frontier is better than Star Trek Beyond.

Because " FF deals with actual weighty issues and makes you think...Beyond is just a ball in space..."


:rollin
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Online El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #592 on: January 11, 2017, 03:11:50 PM »
I'd say he got it half right.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #593 on: January 11, 2017, 03:19:56 PM »
Of course. Because Final Frontier is "Proper Trek"

No matter how good a new Trek movie is.

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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #594 on: January 11, 2017, 03:43:34 PM »
Not for me. The Final Frontier will always be the 2nd worst movie in the franchise.
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