Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[Polarbear]

It's pretty funny how everyone thought that Discovery would be pretty much dead on arrival, including the producers..

Now it has a pretty decent following, as far as i understand. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets a season 2 or more.

I still haven't seen it so i can't say anything about it..

[TL]

So I've seen the first four episodes now (it's airing on normal TV here in Canada).

Man, I'm really trying to give it a chance, but I really don't like it so far.
It's definitely doing the modern TV thing of mistakenly thinking that "grim and moody" is automatically good.
So far every character except for Tilly (and main engineer guy is coming around a bit) is a miserable asshole. I'm not finding it all that compelling to watch most of the crew try to out-jackass each other.
The Klingon stuff is just painful to sit through. It's not interesting, and the pacing is atrocious.
The spore drive thing is really stupid. Now, I don't necessarily mind dumb bullshit in my fiction, as long as it's fun or entertaining or interesting or something.  This though, they're torturing a giant microbe bear to navigate the space magic mushroom highway, and treating it super seriously.

More than anything, more than aesthetics or nitpicks or whether or not it's "really Star Trek", it's just, well, really boring so far.  I checked the time at one point while I was watching the fourth episode, thinking it was almost done, and it was maybe almost at the half way mark.

I'll keep watching to see if it gets better, but wow am I not enjoying this show so far.

[abydos]

I fast-forward through the Klingon crap since the second episode. Little seems to be said and it drags and they'll eventually show the result of these boring scenes anyway so what's the point in torturing myself by sitting through them? The honorable klingons betraying their leader for some chicken McNuggets...

[BlobVanDam]

There's very little actually happening in those scenes, they just go forever because every bit of dialogue is slower than necessary for the actors to speak a made up language, and because they need the lines to last long enough for the average person to read subtitles.

Of all the things for them to actually give a shit about being authentic about, slow genuine Klingon language shouldn't be it. It makes the scenes drag, and it's hard for an actor to act and emote when they're focusing on another language at the same time.

[Adami]

To change the topic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Zc8Co2H3w

It's a bit long, but from what I've gathered, it was definitely a labor of love.

[DougMasters]

I fast-forward through the Klingon crap since the second episode. Little seems to be said and it drags and they'll eventually show the result of these boring scenes anyway so what's the point in torturing myself by sitting through them? The honorable klingons betraying their leader for some chicken McNuggets...

yeah just watched the most recent offering, the episode was fanfrickentastic and they kept the Klingon stuff to a minimum because, they just weren't needed, and thank heavens for the needed parts, they spoke English. It was awesome.

The episode also also started to present the third side of the argument a little better, something trek was sometimes really good at, but was lacking here. The sentiments of "what did you expect klingons to do" and "the little people aren't happy with you pushing the edge of exploration at these costs" really creeping in, though to no great degree.

The previous Discovery episodes left me curious but this one left me genuinely excited to see the next offering. It nailed the sci-fi, nailed the adventure, nailed the political intrigue super well.

[BlobVanDam]

I admit this episode was an improvement, but still a lot of bad too.

I'll start with the bad, and finish with the good.

A lot of needless fan service in this episode, but it only served to further the jarring realization this is not prime universe Star Trek.
Like a lot of the show, my brain cannot pretend this dude was Harry Mudd. I didn't mind the character at all, but it wasn't Mudd, and it was unnecessary that he was. He was a good character in his own right though.
Name dropping the Trek captains felt unnecessary too, but at least it was a solid list, with Decker, Pike, Archer (who would be an admiral according to JJ Trek at this point, and somehow still alive), and others.
That Klingon monstrosity was not a D7 Battle Cruiser.
WHY THE FUCK IS STAR TREK USING THE WORD FUCK?? TWICE?!?! So edgy. Much trying too hard. Wow. Facepalm.
Captain Lorca blew up his own crew out of kindness. Like, I get it, it's supposed to be backstory, but it just continues to make characters unlikable.
Why are you using AUs to measure distance? You're not from our solar system, and it's a dumb measurement to use out in space.
I'm a bit iffy on them beaming the people out of the Klingon shuttle thingy at speed while evading fire, but I guess it might be possible.
Still some unwarranted bitchiness, but not as much.


Now for the good, for the first time-

Saru continues to be my favourite character. He was being more reasonable towards Michael this episode, and the scene at the end between the two was actually a nice character moment. That gave him some more depth. Also, I liked the story of him being in command and having to trust his instincts. His instinct with identifying the lead ship evading the others was good, because under normal circumstances, I doubt someone would have assumed that, but it made sense that he's tuned to that.

Good riddance with the space tardigrade crap. The space mushroom drive is still incredibly dumb, but having a human have to deal with this adds a much better element to that plot. Now the danger is on a real relatable person, and they really have to think about using it, and it partially explains why this is an unsustainable drive in future.
It also adds an element that the person who is taking this on is in a relationship, and with the ship's doctor to boot. I'd assumed at this point that that guy was going to be the gay one (knowing in advance there was going to be one), but this week I was thinking it might be the doctor. Turns out it's both. Anyway, that was well done and not shoehorned in there to pat themselves on the back. They're just treating it like a regular relationship. Also, both characters were more likable this week.
The Klingon stuff was bearable besides them not being Klingons.

Maybe this episode is where they started retooling it, because for the first time, there was some stuff that worked in this episode. It still has a long way to go though.

[Orbert]

Fuck, Jim!  I'm a doctor, not a...

[BlobVanDam]

Scotty, beam us the fuck outta here!

Data: I do not understand this phrase, Doctor. What does fornication have to do with this event? Is this another human colloquialism I am unfamiliar with?

[El Barto]

Something that occurred to me last night was that you really can't make a good ST show if the entire thing is serialized. You need standalone, non arc episodes to break things up and provide different stories. During seasons 6 and 7 of DS9, where the war is the primary story, probably half the episodes were only tangentially related, or unrelated. During the Xindi arc of ENT, it was about the same ratio. I think that variety is pretty damned important, and from what I gather that is not something we're gong to see with STD. I reckon they're going for all drama, all the time. Can anybody actually envision this ship and crew just answering some unknown hail and investigating some strange phenomenon for an hour?

Anyhoo, I've started watching TAS as an alternative to STD. Haven't seen it since the early 70s, so I know nothing about it. Only two in but Yesteryear was excellent. Don't care for the style of animation, but enjoyed the story quite a bit.

[BlobVanDam]

Speaking of TAS, I was very close to buying the series on DVD at a second hand market on the weekend, but I have too many other expenses right now, so I gave it a miss.
I'm interested in seeing it some day though, as it was still (most of) the TOS cast, and many of the same writers from what I recall. While the animation sucked, at least it gave them the freedom to do some stuff they couldn't do in live action in the '60s, so that's something I suppose.

[ReaperKK]

I’m halfway done through season 3 of TNG and it’s pretty awful, I think season 2 was better. I hope the second half of season 3 picks up.

[DougMasters]

In one hour, we have an interview scheduled with a cast member of Star Trek Discovery, it's a minor minor part, but Williammunny will be conducting the interview, and it will be featured in our next podcast on the show. Considering Discovery gets better each episode, this should be exciting.

[The King in Crimson]

I’m halfway done through season 3 of TNG and it’s pretty awful, I think season 2 was better. I hope the second half of season 3 picks up.

Wow, really? I'll definitely admit that Season 3, like any season of TNG, has its fair share of clunkers, but I think there's some legitimately good television in there. Though, looking at the list of episodes in season 3, it appears that most of my favorites are in the second half so maybe you'll like those better.

[BlobVanDam]

Does every single episode of Discovery have to start with a bullshit fakeout action sequence? They've done it for at least the last 3 episodes in a row now. And also THEY DID NOT HAVE HOLODECKS WHAT THE FUCK
SOUL GRAFT USING A KATRA? WHAT IS THIS SHIT? And why do logic extremists support racism? Whatever happened to infinite diversity? Star Trek is supposed to take place in an era of enlightenment, but both humans and Vulcans have so far displayed great amounts of intolerance and racism.
And Sarek was saved by expositional flashbacks! Hooray! What great writing!
Must appeal to the GOT crowd. More sex! More violence!

On the plus side, the characters are slightly more likable as they were last week. Maybe they finally realized that Michael was completely unlikable and decided to ditch that Vulcan thing.

Next week's episode looks like some unholy hybrid of that TNG episode with the time loop, and Mudd's Women.

[Adami]

You're mad!




Also I talked to my mom today (she's a big Trek fan too) and she got to see the first episode. Apparently when one of the Klingons died, they had some huge elaborate means of dealing with the dead body? She was like "The hell is this? Klingons don't care about the dead body".

[BlobVanDam]

The Klingons had a ship literally covered in coffins full of Klingon bodies, and they went to great lengths to tractor beam all of the dead Klingons back in, which was a major plot point in how they got defeated in that episode.

[Adami]

The show sounds dumb, but a lot of this Klingon stuff seems like it could have really been saved if they just called them something else.

They look nothing like Klingons, and aside from (apparently) being super aggressive and wanting to blow stuff up, they don't act like Klingons.

[BlobVanDam]

They're kind of bland and generic, but it could have worked if they'd made them not Klingons. Except for the fact the Federation probably wasn't at war with some random nobody race that was never heard from again shortly before Kirk's time.

Even people who enjoy this show can only defend it by basically admitting they're not Klingons, this isn't prime timeline, it's not set before Kirk, and that it's not even Star Trek. There are far too many caveats for this show to work as Star Trek, and I will never ever consider this to be canon.


At least I have Star Trek Continues for classic era. In the new episode, they brought back the Romulan female character from The Enterprise Incident, and she was played by the original actress's daughter, and I did a double take.

[soupytwist]

Worst episode of the show so far, first time I felt a little bored.

Problem with the show for me is it's OK, but right now OK doesn't really cut it too highly in TV land - where there are lots of shows that are better, and we are now entering the period where a lot of  those shows are coming back to the screen.

[Logain Ablar]

I'm not sure why I'm still watching it, but I finished episode 5 last night. The spore drive thing is just ridiculous. Captain Lorca doesn't seem like the right kind of calibre for a Star Trek captain. He is far too gung-ho and constantly itching for a fight.

Thankfully the Klingon dialogue was dialled back a bit this time. If I heard "T'Kuvma" one more time, I was going to lash out at the TV  . The inferred relationship between the prisoner guy and the female Klingon captain was half-baked, and wasn't really developed (maybe that's just as well).

I didn't like the swearing either - it just feels out of place in a Star Trek series. I think that's probably my general comment about the whole show - it just doesn't feel like Star Trek.

How many more episodes do I give it before bailing out completely?

[BlobVanDam]

If you're smart, you'll bail right away. Or you can be an idiot like me, and stick it out to see how far they drag the Star Trek name down.

STD just got renewed for a second season. I guess like many other STDs, this will keep coming back.

[soupytwist]

I didn't mind the swearing.  Purely because one of the great missed opportunities of TNG was Picard telling Wesley to 'Get the fuck off my bridge'. 

[BlobVanDam]

Captain Picard was too classy for that kind of foul language! He'll own you with his eloquence.

[Logain Ablar]

STD just got renewed for a second season. I guess like many other STDs, this will keep coming back.

I'll not ask if you're speaking from experience..   

[Polarbear]

Okay...

Lets face it, Star Trek of the past cannot exist in this modern world that we live in. Outside the select few of us, nobody would watch TNG, if it were made today.

Now that this show is renewed for the second season, they are most likely going to drop all pretense for catering to the old fanbase. They know that the millennial audience is on board now, and the will be moving the show even more into a direction that caters to them.

As sad as it is, we are never getting another TNG or DS9. Or Voyager or TOS. Star Trek as we knew it, is dead and buried.
STD is the future of the franchise, whether we like it or not.

I didn't mind the swearing.  Purely because one of the great missed opportunities of TNG was Picard telling Wesley to 'Get the fuck off my bridge'. 

There are so many moments when i wanted Picard to say: 'MR Worf, escort MR Crusher to the airlock'..

[King Postwhore]

Captain Picard was too classy for that kind of foul language! He'll own you with his eloquence.

You should see Stewart on Blunt Talk.  You'd lose your cookies hearing his foul mouth.

[BlobVanDam]

Captain Picard was too classy for that kind of foul language! He'll own you with his eloquence.

You should see Stewart on Blunt Talk.  You'd lose your cookies hearing his foul mouth.

I watched the first two awful episodes of it. But I said Picard, not Stewart.

Lets face it, Star Trek of the past cannot exist in this modern world that we live in. Outside the select few of us, nobody would watch TNG, if it were made today.

Star Trek's values and morals could definitely still exist in a show, but they require an intelligence and creativity far beyond what these hack writers are shitting out. Those values are more relevant than ever, especially to millennials.
The Orville is basically modern TNG with a dash of comedy anyway, and I think there's definitely a place for it among the generic bleak sameyness of today's shows.

[abydos]

STD - Boldly going where everyone's gone before.

[Polarbear]

Lets face it, Star Trek of the past cannot exist in this modern world that we live in. Outside the select few of us, nobody would watch TNG, if it were made today.

Star Trek's values and morals could definitely still exist in a show, but they require an intelligence and creativity far beyond what these hack writers are shitting out. Those values are more relevant than ever, especially to millennials.
The Orville is basically modern TNG with a dash of comedy anyway, and I think there's definitely a place for it among the generic bleak sameyness of today's shows.

Maybe i should catch up with Orville..

I've seen the trailer once, and it didn't blow me away. I like your description of it though!

[soupytwist]

Star Trek's values and morals could definitely still exist in a show, but they require an intelligence and creativity far beyond what these hack writers are shitting out. Those values are more relevant than ever, especially to millennials.
The Orville is basically modern TNG with a dash of comedy anyway, and I think there's definitely a place for it among the generic bleak sameyness of today's shows.

I think I like the idea of a show that tells it's story though an arc, rather than serialised individiual episodes.  And that is the core problem with TNG for me, nothing ever changes.   It doesn't matter what profound experience the crew go though during the course of an episode, they never learn from it, or develop.   Take 'The Inner Light' a great piece of Sci-Fi - but once the credits run, that's it,  next episode Picard is back to Picard.    I enjoy rewatching TNG but really you can watch the episodes in any order and not really feel you've missed anything!

The ironic thing about the ideology of Star Trek is 'In the Pale Moonlight' one of the highest (if not the highest) rated Star Trek episodes and that episode goes completely against the Gene vision - but you can argue it earnt that with the years/seasons of ground work.   ST:D feels like it's going to big, to early, lets get to know the characters more first.

[BlobVanDam]

Being episodic is not a core problem, even if it's not your personal preference. Not everything needs to be serialized, nor should it be. Why is being able to watch an individual episode without missing anything a problem? I consider that a huge plus for rewatch value. An individual episode of classic Trek says more than Discovery has said in 6 so far.

As I said in The Orville thread, even when DS9 appeared to be going against Star Trek's values, it was actually doing it with those values in mind. In The Pale Moonlight was all about the slippery slope of compromising one's values during war, and whether the ends justify the means, and turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed, and the moral cost of living with your actions. It wasn't justifying or normalizing those actions, in fact, it was raising a point through allegory and questioning it in classic Star Trek fashion. Despite it going against Gene's ideas on the surface level, DS9 was still achieving Star Trek's core vision, and that's actually why it did what it did.

STD on the other hand abandons Star Trek's values only for drama and action appeal, with no message behind it.

[soupytwist]

Being episodic is not a core problem, even if it's not your personal preference. Not everything needs to be serialized, nor should it be. Why is being able to watch an individual episode without missing anything a problem? I consider that a huge plus for rewatch value. An individual episode of classic Trek says more than Discovery has said in 6 so far.

Episodic is fine, but it's the lack of character growth that bugs me.  No one learns, no one develops over the show.  Troi, La Forge, Crusher and even Riker are the worst culprits for this.   The odd thing is Ro Laren who is in about 10 episodes gets more development and evolves more than all the main cast did over 7 seasons!   I always feel that when Picard joins the rest of the crew for a game of cards in '..All good things' and says something like 'I should have done this along time ago' that's more an admission by the writers!

[BlobVanDam]

Fair point that there is a lack of character development, although that's not an inherent problem with an episodic show (or at least doesn't need to be), more a problem with Trek in general.
Many shows manage to be largely episodic while still incorporating character development, they just do it against individual stories instead of one story arc. The two are not really related, except that networks like shows that don't require a commitment from the audience and so usually it's one end of the spectrum or the other.
Characters have always been a weakness of Trek, strangely by design much of the time too. Personally I've always liked the middle ground, where a show has an overall story arc, but still has a lot of standalone episodes (like S3 of Enterprise, DS9, or Doctor Who, etc).
I like a show where I can pick out a random episode and enjoy it or share it with someone, or if I want to commit to watching it all, gain a little more from it.

[DougMasters]

It's pretty funny how everyone thought that Discovery would be pretty much dead on arrival, including the producers..

Now it has a pretty decent following, as far as i understand. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets a season 2 or more.

I still haven't seen it so i can't say anything about it..

Recently confirmed it's renewed for season 2.

We were lucky enough to snag an interview with Simon Northwood, a cast member of one of the episodes. Great guy, happy to have interviewed him. A minor cast member but cool interview none the less.

 Soundcloud
https://soundcloud.com/geek-usa/episode-53-star-trek-discovery-episode-6-interview-with-simon-northwood

 ITunes
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/geek-u-s-a-a-nerd-tastic-podcast/id1179864086?mt=2