Author Topic: Colin Kaepernick  (Read 10908 times)

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Offline pogoowner

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2016, 12:38:56 PM »
Totally cool with what he did.
Same here. I think it's odd how much uproar there has been over this particular issue. Especially considering the number of NFL players guilty of far more egregious crimes (domestic violence, rape, vehicular homicide, etc.). There has been a huge amount of coverage of Kaepernick, which, to be fair, was kind of his goal. But of course most people are glossing over his actual message and trying to say things like "he's disrespecting the military and our country!" He's trying to change this country for the better.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2016, 12:41:44 PM »
Did he actually make a story out of this? From what I understand (and I've not followed this really), he quietly did it for a couple of games and nobody cared. Then the cameras caught him and it became a big deal. And now there's the assumption that he intended this to be some grand statement. Maybe he just didn't feel like demonstrating in an empty show of respect for a country he's not particularly happy with right now. Considering all of the bitching and moaning we're hearing nowadays, it's a shame more people don't have his balls.

Which leads to the other point, who gives a fuck? I never really considered a hollow display and pretending to sing a song a particularly strong demonstration of patriotism. Myself, I usually make sure I'm off getting a beer or using the head while all of that's going on. I'm just not a big fan of pageantry.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2016, 12:50:32 PM »
I'd actually love it if we got rid of the anthem before sporting events, concerts, and any other event that's not a memorial service for a service person. Every year I go to the Monster Jam World Finals in Vegas. It takes place over three nights. All three nights have a 20 minute ceremony dedicated to America and its military superiority that concludes with some shit version of the anthem. Maybe I just don't get it, but I can't wait for the circle jerk to end. The irony in it is always up there. We call it the World Finals but 31 of the 32 drivers are from the United States, and the other is a Canadian. The parents are standing in lines dozens deep and spending hundreds of dollars on Chinese made garbage. It's cool though. We stood for the anthem. We can get rid of God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch while we're at it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 12:58:02 PM by Chino »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2016, 01:14:08 PM »
We can get rid of God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch while we're at it.
Didn't even know that was a thing. Down here it's always been the Cotton Eyed Joe.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2016, 01:17:01 PM »
We can get rid of God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch while we're at it.
Didn't even know that was a thing. Down here it's always been the Cotton Eyed Joe.

 :rollin

Honestly, I don't understand why we do all of this for every sports event either.  I'm not complaining, just don't understand why sporting events do this.  Although I do enjoy the flyovers when you are at the game.  Really hoping for one this Saturday at the PSU game.  I don't know why we do them either, seems like a large waste of money, but I find them cool to witness.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2016, 01:59:18 PM »
Something that bothers me is that I'm quite certain if he was the clear cut starter and still successful I doubt he would be doing this. The other absurd part of this story, is that his comment on Hillary Clinton have be vastly ignored. Another example of media bias.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2016, 02:05:37 PM »
  The other absurd part of this story, is that his comment on Hillary Clinton have be vastly ignored. Another example of media bias.

So have his comments about Trump, for the most part.

Offline Adami

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2016, 02:05:51 PM »
Anyone should be able to peacefully protest anything they want about this country.

Then again, the rest of people are also allowed to tell people to criticize the country to leave. I hope those people don't leave, but such is life.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2016, 02:24:09 PM »
Anyone should be able to peacefully protest anything they want about this country.

Then again, the rest of people are also allowed to tell people to criticize the country to leave. I hope those people don't leave, but such is life.

I'll give the credit where it's due for this though, that form of protest is peaceful and really poses no threat to anyone.  I'll take this over shutting down highways.

Offline pogoowner

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2016, 02:31:58 PM »
Did he actually make a story out of this? From what I understand (and I've not followed this really), he quietly did it for a couple of games and nobody cared. Then the cameras caught him and it became a big deal.
This is accurate, actually. If you follow his social media activity over the past year or so, all of this falls right in line with what he's been doing for quite some time. This didn't come out of nowhere.

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2016, 03:28:22 PM »
We just celebrated the life of Muhammad Ali just a few months ago for what he did in and out of the ring.

Am I comparing the two?  No, just commenting.

Colin chose a silent protest for personal reasons.  Whether I agree or disagree with his actions, I respect how it has been done.

I wonder:  how many of those who are really on his case, are like so many people around me at a sporting event, who laugh or cannot STFU for a measly couple of minutes while the anthem is played?  (I should have saved this for the 'things that p*ss me off' discussion thread)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2016, 03:37:11 PM »
Did he actually make a story out of this? From what I understand (and I've not followed this really), he quietly did it for a couple of games and nobody cared. Then the cameras caught him and it became a big deal.
This is accurate, actually. If you follow his social media activity over the past year or so, all of this falls right in line with what he's been doing for quite some time. This didn't come out of nowhere.
Seems to me he was demonstrating a sort of silent protest, and I'm fine with that. He was asked what it was about and then a shitstorm ensues. [edit-as also pointed out by a Queen fan above me]

Word around the campfire is that this effectively ended his career, and not because of his declining talent. While he isn't a good QB now (or ever, depending on who you ask) he's one of the two best options SF has according to their coach. They kind of need him. Yet they'll cut him in a week or two, and the other teams' front offices are quietly saying he's not welcome because of this. One GM reportedly saying that he hasn't "seen this much collective dislike among front office members regarding a player since Rae Carruth." This from a league that puts up with a whole lot of real shitbags and thugs. He's also being described by one as a traitor, which is ironic, actually.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2016, 03:52:54 PM »
Word around the campfire is that this effectively ended his career, and not because of his declining talent. While he isn't a good QB now (or ever, depending on who you ask) he's one of the two best options SF has according to their coach. They kind of need him. Yet they'll cut him in a week or two, and the other teams' front offices are quietly saying he's not welcome because of this. One GM reportedly saying that he hasn't "seen this much collective dislike among front office members regarding a player since Rae Carruth." This from a league that puts up with a whole lot of real shitbags and thugs. He's also being described by one as a traitor, which is ironic, actually.
We'll see.  Locally, the word is that it just depends on how he plays.  So far, he has been awful.  But he really hasn't had many opportunities since coming back from surgery.  But he is supposed to get a lot of reps in this last preseason game, so that should help make the decision one way or the other.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2016, 06:05:52 PM »
Did he actually make a story out of this? From what I understand (and I've not followed this really), he quietly did it for a couple of games and nobody cared. Then the cameras caught him and it became a big deal. And now there's the assumption that he intended this to be some grand statement. Maybe he just didn't feel like demonstrating in an empty show of respect for a country he's not particularly happy with right now. Considering all of the bitching and moaning we're hearing nowadays, it's a shame more people don't have his balls.

That's what I figured was going on. A complete non-story blowing up because it deals with a well known person. I'd venture a guess if there was some list somewhere of all of the people that don't stand or salute during the national anthem for events it'd probably range in the thousands during a given week. The hypocrisy of the average slacktivist/reactionary person towards anything that involves celebrities/athletes both amuses and saddens me.

Which leads to the other point, who gives a fuck? I never really considered a hollow display and pretending to sing a song a particularly strong demonstration of patriotism. Myself, I usually make sure I'm off getting a beer or using the head while all of that's going on. I'm just not a big fan of pageantry.

The thing about "stories" like this is that it's so easy to get behind and increase a sense of self-righteousness if you're so inclined. It's a scenario that easily lends to merely offering an opinion as an answer instead of a different scenario that would require more of an intelligent solution which would solicit much less response. It's a gossip story that gets you your quick burst of adrenaline and emotion instead of one that stimulates the brain in more positive ways, which is what most things reported have devolved to.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2016, 07:18:13 PM »
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2016, 06:48:56 AM »
I get what a lot of you are saying. I agree that he has every right to not stand but he needs to understand that there are consequences for choosing not to do so. I don't like it and I think it's disrespectful.  There is a time and place to do stuff like that. Probably not wise to make political statement at the office. Let's see if and when he gets cut what he does with those millions of dollars he made to improve our country.

Also...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/colin-kaepernicks-pig-socks-look-like-big-diss-of-police/ar-AAilke5?li=BBnb7Kz

Offline Chino

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2016, 07:15:49 AM »
Serious question. Why is it disrespectful?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2016, 08:16:21 AM »
I get what a lot of you are saying. I agree that he has every right to not stand but he needs to understand that there are consequences for choosing not to do so. I don't like it and I think it's disrespectful.  There is a time and place to do stuff like that. Probably not wise to make political statement at the office. Let's see if and when he gets cut what he does with those millions of dollars he made to improve our country.

Also...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/colin-kaepernicks-pig-socks-look-like-big-diss-of-police/ar-AAilke5?li=BBnb7Kz
Just like the national anthem nonsense, the dude's been wearing the socks for a while. It's only a controversy when the media takes notice and outrage ensues. Honestly, I like the way the guy's making his statement. Seems like a quiet, personal protest.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2016, 08:53:06 AM »
Serious question. Why is it disrespectful?
The simplest way to say it is that it is disrespectful because you are not showing respect.

It's protocol.  At one time, it would have been unquestionable.  Maybe it's a generational thing.  Like, for me, it's weird that you don't know that could be seen as disrespectful.

When the national anthem is played, it is standard operating procedure for citizens to show the proper respect (stand up, remove a hat, some people hold their hand over their heart). 
Same thing with other national anthems, by the way.  You show respect to the nation as symbolized by the anthem.  When NBA teams (for example), play games in Toronto, the athletes stand for the Canadian anthem, even though almost all of the athletes are American.  Likewise in the Olympics.  Whenever the gold medalist's national anthem is played, people stand to show respect.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2016, 08:58:29 AM »
Serious question. Why is it disrespectful?
The simplest way to say it is that it is disrespectful because you are not showing respect.

It's protocol.  At one time, it would have been unquestionable.  Maybe it's a generational thing.  Like, for me, it's weird that you don't know that could be seen as disrespectful.

When the national anthem is played, it is standard operating procedure for citizens to show the proper respect (stand up, remove a hat, some people hold their hand over their heart). 
Same thing with other national anthems, by the way.  You show respect to the nation as symbolized by the anthem.  When NBA teams (for example), play games in Toronto, the athletes stand for the Canadian anthem, even though almost all of the athletes are American.  Likewise in the Olympics.  Whenever the gold medalist's national anthem is played, people stand to show respect.
The fact that it's SOP is what diminishes the display, IMO. For some reason this made me thing of the rote recitation of the Lord's prayer. Doing something because it's expected isn't the same as doing something because you mean it.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2016, 09:02:46 AM »
The hat thing is something else I never understood.  I don't get how that's any sort of indicator of disrespect.  I get that it's some leftover oddity from the days of knights and shit, where if you used your right hand to open your visor, it meant you weren't holding a weapon in that hand or something, but still, I'm not wearing a suit of armor or bringing a broadsword to a public event anytime soon, so I don't get it.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2016, 09:03:27 AM »
Yeah, I don't get that.

The respect is in the action.  That's why it's called "showing respect".  I don't see how the act is diminished because it is expected.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2016, 09:03:29 AM »
Serious question. Why is it disrespectful?
The simplest way to say it is that it is disrespectful because you are not showing respect.

It's protocol.  At one time, it would have been unquestionable.  Maybe it's a generational thing.  Like, for me, it's weird that you don't know that could be seen as disrespectful.

When the national anthem is played, it is standard operating procedure for citizens to show the proper respect (stand up, remove a hat, some people hold their hand over their heart). 
Same thing with other national anthems, by the way.  You show respect to the nation as symbolized by the anthem.  When NBA teams (for example), play games in Toronto, the athletes stand for the Canadian anthem, even though almost all of the athletes are American.  Likewise in the Olympics.  Whenever the gold medalist's national anthem is played, people stand to show respect.

I'm well aware that it will be seen as disrespectful, so is putting my elbows on the dinner table, but I don't understand why. I think it's a silly tradition and completely pointless. I can understand the playing of anthems at international events, and especially at something as grand as the olympics. But a regular old football game being played in a taxpayer funded stadium, owned by a billionaire paying shit wages? It just seems completely out of place an forced.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2016, 09:04:15 AM »
Serious question. Why is it disrespectful?
The simplest way to say it is that it is disrespectful because you are not showing respect.

It's protocol.  At one time, it would have been unquestionable.  Maybe it's a generational thing.  Like, for me, it's weird that you don't know that could be seen as disrespectful.

When the national anthem is played, it is standard operating procedure for citizens to show the proper respect (stand up, remove a hat, some people hold their hand over their heart). 
Same thing with other national anthems, by the way.  You show respect to the nation as symbolized by the anthem.  When NBA teams (for example), play games in Toronto, the athletes stand for the Canadian anthem, even though almost all of the athletes are American.  Likewise in the Olympics.  Whenever the gold medalist's national anthem is played, people stand to show respect.

Well said.  I will just add that such a showing of respect is not necessarily a showing of agreement or support.  For example, we might disagree vehemently with China's human rights policies or other policies, but that should not prevent Olympians from other countries from showing respect during the Chinese national anthem when their athletes win a gold medal, or prevent visiting foreign dignitaries from showing respect to the Chinese flag and/or national anthem when visiting China on a diplomatic trip. 

In many ways, it isn't unlike standing to show respect for a nation's president (or equivalent leader) if he or she were to come speak at an event.  As much as a simply cannot respect Hillary Clinton as an individual, for example, and as much as I think she would be hands down the worst U.S. president ever if she were elected office, I would still stand and show respect for the office and would not do anything to disrespect the office I was present at an event where she came to speak.


@Barto:  It isn't about showing that you "mean it."  Military personnel may salute a superior officer a couple of dozen times a day, to the point where it is beyond rote and becomes just a subconscious reaction.  But it is still a sign of respect that is given to that office.  Same thing with a bailiff or court clerk in a courtroom that stands several times a day when their judge enters the courtroom.  It isn't about "feeling it" or "meaning it."  It is about showing the respect due the office.

And as far as it being a "silly" custom, I mean, you could say that about almost anything, really.  Is it "silly" to have a moment of silence for someone who passed away?  I mean, really, what does it accomplish?  It literally does nothing at all for the person who died.  And what if it is someone that I have no feeling for whatsoever, or even someone I think is a bad person?  It still doesn't mean I cannot or should not recognize that participating in a moment of silence is a means of showing respect, and that refusing to do that when asked is disrespectful.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 09:29:21 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #59 on: September 01, 2016, 09:32:51 AM »
I think a lot of it is just tradition.  The hat off thing seems like it makes no sense, but that's how things were done before us to show respect so we continue the tradition even if it seems pointless.  Maybe tradition isn't a good answer to some, but I find traditions to be important, to not forget who came before us and the sacrifices those made so that we can enjoy the freedoms we have today. If you chose not to respect that, fine, to each their own (and that is exactly what those people and traditions we are honoring fought for), but I personally find it disrespectful myself to not at least show this small amount of respect when called upon at a sporting event or in a classroom.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2016, 09:40:38 AM »
@Barto:  It isn't about showing that you "mean it."  Military personnel may salute a superior officer a couple of dozen times a day, to the point where it is beyond rote and becomes just a subconscious reaction.  But it is still a sign of respect that is given to that office.  Same thing with a bailiff or court clerk in a courtroom that stands several times a day when their judge enters the courtroom.  It isn't about "feeling it" or "meaning it."  It is about showing the respect due the office.
Those are excellent analogies. Makes perfect sense. I would add a doctor who you wouldn't address as Mr. or "hey, Bob!" Yet, shifting to your very valid take on it, I've still got no problem with Kap's actions. If the incompetent captain gets cashiered or the incompetent judge gets disbarred (??) you no longer afford them those courtesies. There is no such formality with the obligation to show respect to the flag or the song.

And honestly, don't you feel rotten saluting a putz you know is well on his way to getting fragged, or a judge you know is corrupt? While you recognize that they earned their office, you still recognize the discomfort of the obligation.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2016, 09:50:25 AM »
And honestly, don't you feel rotten saluting a putz you know is well on his way to getting fragged, or a judge you know is corrupt? While you recognize that they earned their office, you still recognize the discomfort of the obligation.
Yeah, totally.  In fact, I'm still nursing some fresh wounds over something right in that very vein.  :lol  But that discomfort aside, again, the respect is due the office, not the person.  So I can grit my teeth and do it, knowing that while I have strong personal feelings that the person might not deserve my respect, the office he holds still does, regardless of my personal feelings.

And as for Kaep individually, I'm still undecided.  I guess if I had to give an answer, I would say:  I disagree with his actions and think they are disrespectful.  But he has a right to do what he did, whether I happen to agree or not.  I don't think he should be vilified by the public over it.  And I don't think his employer should take any action based on that.  But I certainly don't have much of a problem if, hypothetically, they DID take action and cut him loose over it.  I think that is and should be their right as well. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2016, 10:20:05 AM »
Actually, the hat thing originally came from The Bible.   1 Cor Chapter 11 talks about how a man should never cover his head when praying or prophesying.   Thus, when hats became a thing, removing your hat when you approach God became a requirement. 

But that's also why I've never been comfortable with the whole thing.   Even the Encyclopedia Britannica compares it to a religious ceremony....and the whole idea of nationalism boils down to "worship of your homeland"....no matter what country you're from. 

Nope, I will never get it, and I will never violate my conscience on this.    TO ME, nationalism is worship of your homeland.  And I don't see how simply "opting out" of nationalism is a disrespect.  I'm not fighting against anything, I'm only not participating.    All others are free to do as they wish.   

That seems a lot more like freedom to me.   
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2016, 12:10:53 PM »
Yeah, that's a completely baseless take on nationalism.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2016, 12:33:06 PM »
“[Historian] Carlton Hayes pointed out long ago that the ritual of flag-worship and oath-taking in an American school is a religious observance. . . . And that these daily rituals are religious has been at last affirmed by the Supreme Court in a series of cases.”—The American Character (New York, 1956), D. W. Brogan, pp. 163, 164.


“Early flags were almost purely of a religious character. . . . The national banner of England for centuries—the red cross of St. George—was a religious one; in fact the aid of religion seems ever to have been sought to give sanctity to national flags, and the origin of many can be traced to a sacred banner.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 9, p. 343.


“In a public ceremony presided over by the vice president of the [Military Supreme] Court, on the 19th of November, honors were shown to the Brazilian flag. . . . After the flag was hoisted, Minister General of the Army Tristao de Alencar Araripe expressed himself concerning the commemoration in this manner: ‘ . . . flags have become a divinity of patriotic religion which imposes worship . . . The flag is venerated and worshiped . . . The flag is worshiped, just as the Fatherland is worshiped.’”—Diario da Justiça (Federal Capital, Brazil), February 16, 1956, p. 1906.

EDIT -  it's OK if you disagree, but don't call it baseless.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2016, 12:49:39 PM »
I'm with jammindude on this. I'm not religious, but having been around different places I do think the reverence we pay the flag to begin with is really odd and atypical. Why do we do this? It's not out of respect - it's automatic, since school. Not saying I definitely think we *should* stop, but a little bit of self awareness wouldn't hurt.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2016, 12:54:42 PM »
All three of those quotes take respect for the emblems of a nation completely out of context.  So, yeah, it's pretty baseless.  That isn't to say that it can't take on religious significance.  It clearly can.  And that isn't to say that the lines aren't sometimes blurred between the religious and the secular in displays of patriotism.  They clearly can be.  But that can be the case with just about anything.  People can and often do create religious observance out of many things that aren't.  Whether that is proper depends on several factors that are beyond the scope of this discussion.  But the irrational withdrawal from anything remotely political that is part of JW doctrine is baseless and manufactured.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2016, 01:00:44 PM »
 You seem to have a particular  vendetta against the way that I personally view things. I talk about my personal viewpoint and you begin to make it about "JW doctrine".

 All I have done is site outside sources in order to show everyone the basis for what I personally believe.  you then turned around and made it a personal attack on a specific religions set of beliefs. I don't think this is proper for this forum. Especially for a moderator.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2016, 01:16:00 PM »
I'm sorry you feel it is improper.  Is that not what you were attempting to inject into the discussion?  If not, I will just leave it at my comment that those quotes take the present debate out of context.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline jammindude

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Re: Colin Kaepernick
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2016, 01:33:56 PM »
I was only bringing facts to the table.  I stated my beliefs that nationalism has religious connotations.  You said this was a baseless claim.   I offered citations including the Encyclopedia to show that there *IS* a basis for the thought that nationalism *DOES* have religious connotations.    If you disagree with the claim, you are free to do so.   But to say that it is "baseless" is just patently false, and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's religious doctrine. 

You called something with a basis "baseless", and you asserted that this was about "JW doctrine" instead of sticking to the immediate subject (nationalism having religious connotations....which is directly related to the idea of whether or not someone should stand for the anthem...or should they be made to do so).    On both counts, you are incorrect, and furthermore, you're not being a fair moderator in this matter.   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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