Author Topic: Guilty Until Proven Innocent  (Read 4925 times)

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Online El Barto

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2016, 03:39:06 PM »
Ah I see.

I figured there would be constitutional protections from the kinds of punishment being suggested but not sure as it's not my country :D
Oh, I forgot, you're one of those Canadian people.  :lol  Yeah, I'm pretty confident that any person not acting out of seething rage is gong to consider dismemberment cruel and unusual punishment. So while you could certainly get a 51% majority of congressmen to support our good doctor's Sun Cannonô as a form of punishment, the Supreme Court is going to laugh at them for the attempt.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2016, 05:28:18 PM »
Ah I see.

I figured there would be constitutional protections from the kinds of punishment being suggested but not sure as it's not my country :D

There are. Notice that the DTF attorneys, if they have appeared at all, have pounced on this thread. :p
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Offline j

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2016, 06:10:54 PM »
But if the very real possibility of getting his dick cut off were there.....I'd be willing to bet he'd at least have thought twice before acting on his desires. And, this person should not have the opportunity to father a kid...period.....nor 'enjoy' any sort of sexual gratification, and simply sterilizing him isn't harsh enough. He should have to look down at an empty crotch everyday as further reminder and punishment for this sinister act. IMO your reproductive and sexual gratification is all forfeited when you sexually abuse an infant/kid/woman.....but ESPECIALLY a defenseless child. I honestly don't see what the issue is other than the repeated soft justice approach to these types of crimes offers zero reason for anyone contemplating molesting and raping a child not to do it.

Just to approach one aspect of this that hasn't been addressed, the efficacy of some potential punishment as a "deterrent" like this depends on a lot of things, many of them inexact and unpredictable.  Getting your dick chopped off sounds terrible, but so does life in prison and/or death, and even a lot less than that.  I suspect that if one was ineffective as a deterrent for some reason (i.e. the individual was acting irrationally/impulsively, thought his chances of being caught were low enough to take the risk, etc), so too would the others be.  My guess is that it's not often that these types of crimes are committed with calculating rationality and detailed cost-benefit analysis.

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2016, 11:11:05 PM »
To be clear, I wasn't referring to the 'itch' of criminals to commit evil acts.  I was referring to our 'itch' to see vengeance.  My point is that when we want to see someone get hurt (or executed, or violated with a hot cattle prod, or whatever), that feeling is typically a result of a deeper pain within us, and seeing that vengeance done will rarely do anything to address our actual pain.  Sometimes, when you scratch the itch at the surface, the deeper wound just gets infected. 

But how do you get to say that?   I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but rather how you got there.  How do you know that "vengeance" rarely addresses the pain? 

I suppose I don't, really.  Not with any authority or certainty, at any rate.  My perspective of this based largely on what makes sense in my own brain.  And, while it does line up with my own experience and my observations of the people in my life, I definitely shouldn't pretend it's a universal truth.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who do feel a sense of genuine comfort or satisfaction at the idea of a horrific criminal being punished in a way they find appropriate.  Though, even then, I'm not convinced that the sense of comfort or satisfaction they experience is actually healthy.

Look at the five stages of grief.  In the process of dealing with loss, almost everyone experiences anger.  That's perfectly natural, and it can be an important part of the healing process.  But it's important to keep in mind that the eventual goal is acceptance.  And I think that when people get caught up in that anger stage - no matter how justified the anger may be - it has a way of keeping them away from acceptance and delaying their healing process.

Not a hypothetical, and not a sarcastic question, but who says we want to be "truly good"?   Meaning, who's to say what is truly good?   The entire body of psychology and sociology is LITTERED with examples that show the same decision is in some cases optimal and in some cases to be avoided.     You control a train; you can either send the train to the left track, killing ten people, nine innocent adults and one serial killer, or you can send the train to the right track and kill two small children.  I have thought a lot about this, and while I am not for the death penalty (for some of the reasons you state) I am deeply torn with the extremes of that point of view.  I don't feel it is appropriate for a human to knowingly and with intent take another's life - death penalty, abortion (though I am pro-choice, strongly) - but what about self-defense?  Wat about the US invading Normandy to stop Hitler?   Hiroshima?  bin Laden?

Well, for my part, I've pretty much made peace with the idea of killing in order to actively prevent harm.  If there is a shooter on the loose, a police officer might have to choose between three fairly bad options: letting the shooter continue hurting people, approaching the shooter to attempt to disarm him at great personal risk, or putting a bullet in the shooter's brain.  In this case, I can live with the cop pulling the trigger.  He is hurting someone for the simple reason that if he doesn't, other people will get hurt.


That's not the equation on death row.  It's not like there are two people strapped into separate electric chairs, one of them innocent and one of them guilty, and we have to choose which one to fry.  We're simply choosing whether or not to kill a person. 

I personally cannot make peace with the idea of being presented with that decision and choosing to end a life. 

My question is this: Do you feel that seeing people get punished is ultimately helpful to you?  Does it heal your pain?  Does it bring you peace?

Hmmm...I can honestly say that hearing/reading about a pedophile or someone who has molested a kid being punished has never given me any sense of peace personally, but rather gives me satisfaction that the victim of that person received a sense of justice. I think when abuse/rape comes into the picture there really is no punishment that you can inflict on the abuser that comes close to matching the mental and psychological damage their victims will feel the rest of their lives. Ending their time on earth seems trivial to what those victims have to deal with the rest of their days and also seems like the least thing we could do for them. In my case, I feel like I'm at a pretty good place concerning my healing yet I don't feel that I'll ever truly be at a place that'd I'd have been at had it not happened.

When I talk to the point of these criminals who inflict horrific crimes like rape, murder torture of kids/women etc. that are just brutal in nature....I think the sense of "peace" that accompanies knowing those people were put to death comes less from knowing they'll never do it again and more from knowing that if that were to ever happen to my kids/wife/parents/siblings that the criminal would face the ultimate punishment....and honestly, if I sat and thought about it right now and say one of my sons was abused/raped etc by someone.....my mind immediately forfeits everything I'm taught by my Faith and jumps right to wanting 5 minutes alone with the person who did that to my kid so I can rip them limb from limb. Is that right to think like that? When put in context of my Faith I know that is completely contradictory to how I'm urged to carry myself and treat others.....but in any instance where I see something happen to a kid or wife or parent that's horrific in nature I can't help but think of my own family and if that had happened to them and then jump to that line of thinking rather than the forgiveness and compassion that I 'know' I should be demonstrating.

I don't know if that really answered your question though?

You did answer my question, more or less. 

I suppose it all comes down to the bolded question.  Is it right to think like that?

It seems you yourself are torn on this question, your faith in one hand and your emotions on the other.  Itís not too often that I take the side of faith, but it seems to me that in this case, your faith is something you have taken great care to cultivate through personal and intellectual pursuit.  On the other hand, your emotions on the subject are knee jerk reactions that, in your own words, you canít help. 

To put it in perspective, you mentioned that if anyone abused your children, you would want five minutes alone with them.  Which is totally understandable.  But if you got those five minutes,  and did what you wanted to do, you would be acting against beliefs that are crucially important to you and who you are. 

It seems to me that if something can make you do that, it has too much power over you.  And thatís why I believe that the thirst for extreme justice can be unhealthy and dangerous.  The pursuit of that kind of justice often involves disregarding the ideals and beliefs that make us who we are.   
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2016, 07:35:10 AM »
You did answer my question, more or less. 

I suppose it all comes down to the bolded question.  Is it right to think like that?

It seems you yourself are torn on this question, your faith in one hand and your emotions on the other.  Itís not too often that I take the side of faith, but it seems to me that in this case, your faith is something you have taken great care to cultivate through personal and intellectual pursuit.  On the other hand, your emotions on the subject are knee jerk reactions that, in your own words, you canít help. 

To put it in perspective, you mentioned that if anyone abused your children, you would want five minutes alone with them.  Which is totally understandable.  But if you got those five minutes,  and did what you wanted to do, you would be acting against beliefs that are crucially important to you and who you are. 

It seems to me that if something can make you do that, it has too much power over you.  And thatís why I believe that the thirst for extreme justice can be unhealthy and dangerous.  The pursuit of that kind of justice often involves disregarding the ideals and beliefs that make us who we are.

Dang Jaffa.....this is very thought provoking. I really appreciate the response. Others have expressed a similar outlook but I guess the manner in which you presented it really penetrated the defensive position I've taken on the matter. Thanks.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2016, 09:32:58 AM »
I suppose I don't, really.  Not with any authority or certainty, at any rate.  My perspective of this based largely on what makes sense in my own brain.  And, while it does line up with my own experience and my observations of the people in my life, I definitely shouldn't pretend it's a universal truth.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who do feel a sense of genuine comfort or satisfaction at the idea of a horrific criminal being punished in a way they find appropriate.  Though, even then, I'm not convinced that the sense of comfort or satisfaction they experience is actually healthy.

You don't know me from a row of assholes, but that's a big thing for me, and it has nothing to do with you personally.  It applies to you, me, GMD, el Barto... I don't feel at all that any one person - a fallible, human person - can make that determination for anyone but themselves.    Not for this thread but I have deep and grave concerns about our - collective - ability to even approach "universal truth", and yet some of us operate as if it is a fait accompli that we have and know what those are.   Even base things, things that we have been (recently) taught are beyond discussion, beyond debate (like racism, homophobia) I believe ought to be looked at periodically to make sure that our assumptions still hold and that our execution of such principles are sound (I'm not at all suggesting that we should "relook at whether we should be racist!" but rather, to reevaluate how we deal with those principles.  Is shaming ok?  Is our legal framework adequate? Etc.). 


Quote
I personally cannot make peace with the idea of being presented with that decision and choosing to end a life. 


As do I, very much.  I have a 15-year-old daughter and an 18-year-old stepdaughter, and so this comes up a fair amount, and I freely make jokes about having 15 minutes with any potential boyfriend, but that's all it is.  I certainly don't want to end up like Ron Goldman's dad, but it's a painful thing to accept how powerless we might actually be.  But it is something that we have to get our arms around.  Our society seems to be predicated on a subtle level of vengeance and quasi-"justice".  Road rage.  Shaming.   It's not healthy, and it is in my view a clear sign that we are not dealing with our emotions in any fruitful or productive way. 

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2016, 02:04:43 PM »
Two more instances where these two "men" should have to prove to a court or judge why they deserve to live and are innocent of killing these infants, and when they can't....because they can't.....they should be executed immediately.


http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/baby-boy-in-wentzville-child-abuse-case-dies/article_0004c76a-047a-5376-ac4e-a3ce9db8434b.html



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3983410/Maryland-father-24-pleads-guilty-sexually-abusing-killing-10-week-old-daughter-repeatedly-dropping-baby-breaking-bones.html
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Online El Barto

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2016, 02:18:11 PM »
Sing it, Mick! Sing it!
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2016, 09:01:43 PM »
Two more instances where these two "men" should have to prove to a court or judge why they deserve to live and are innocent of killing these infants, and when they can't....because they can't.....they should be executed immediately.


http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/baby-boy-in-wentzville-child-abuse-case-dies/article_0004c76a-047a-5376-ac4e-a3ce9db8434b.html



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3983410/Maryland-father-24-pleads-guilty-sexually-abusing-killing-10-week-old-daughter-repeatedly-dropping-baby-breaking-bones.html

Unless someone confesses or pleads guilty, then they should get a trial. I don't like to think that a coincidence could be responsible for the wrongful execution of someone.

Offline Adami

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2016, 09:09:10 PM »
Two more instances where these two "men" should have to prove to a court or judge why they deserve to live and are innocent of killing these infants, and when they can't....because they can't.....they should be executed immediately.


http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/baby-boy-in-wentzville-child-abuse-case-dies/article_0004c76a-047a-5376-ac4e-a3ce9db8434b.html



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3983410/Maryland-father-24-pleads-guilty-sexually-abusing-killing-10-week-old-daughter-repeatedly-dropping-baby-breaking-bones.html

Unless someone confesses or pleads guilty, then they should get a trial. I don't like to think that a coincidence could be responsible for the wrongful execution of someone.

The 2nd dude pleaded guilty.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2016, 09:27:42 PM »
It doesn't matter to me what they plead. In my eyes if you can do what they did to helpless infants, you forfeit your rights, both as a citizen and as a member of the species. Absolutely no place in society for people who do that to infants/kids. Period.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2016, 09:23:08 AM »
It doesn't matter to me what they plead. In my eyes if you can do what they did to helpless infants, you forfeit your rights, both as a citizen and as a member of the species. Absolutely no place in society for people who do that to infants/kids. Period.

Fair points, but they have to have DONE IT.   Not "we kinda think so".  Not "as far as we know he's the last one to have seen the kid".   We have to KNOW.   The court system provides an acceptable (to society) mechanism for determining "KNOW".  Yeah, some people feel like there are false positives (and false negatives) but part of the social contract is that we agree that that is the arbiter of that question. 

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2016, 09:40:09 AM »
Nah, not a fair point at all. He said it himself. "In my eyes." Right now he's mad because the victims were apparently infants. However, I suspect he's got a list of categories where the same extrajudicial punishment is warranted. But that's only GMD's list of people the process doesn't apply to. Everybody would have their own list of people that the rules don't apply to. So what, we decide on a list of recognized, compromised bad guys that don't warrant due process?

With all of this talk of liberal PC thugs complaining because their feelings are hurt, I'd say there's an equally dangerous problems of people on the other side who fail to recognize that certain requirements are in place for everybody and that means You Can't Always Get What You Want. President Grabby clearly doesn't get that, and a helluva lot of people who think similarly now feel legitimized.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2016, 10:09:26 AM »
okay, fair point to you. :)

I'm with you.  I don't really go in for that eye-for-an-eye crap, though I do understand it, and so I was just showing respect for his opinion.   

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2016, 11:03:43 AM »
Part of me does wonder why we spend so much money to keep people who are clearly fucked up and unable to return to society alive in jail.  I know that's pretty vicious, but the thought does come to my mind every once in awhile. 

Which leads me to George Carlin's view on the death penalty  :lol https://youtu.be/qDO6HV6xTmI

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2016, 11:19:00 AM »
I'm with Jesus Barto. The system is set up purpsefully as the only way to ensure it works for everyone, at least theoretically. It's not even a slippery slope question (which are usually fallacious) - if we're going to fasttrack killing people, how do we 100% make sure they did it, their confessions were lucid and not coerced, and everything is as believed? A trial.

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2016, 01:36:46 PM »
I'm with Jesus Barto. The system is set up purpsefully as the only way to ensure it works for everyone, at least theoretically. It's not even a slippery slope question (which are usually fallacious) - if we're going to fasttrack killing people, how do we 100% make sure they did it, their confessions were lucid and not coerced, and everything is as believed? A trial.

Which, though I worded it shittily, was my point on the nose.  It doesn't matter WHAT the punishment is, we just can't have some father or brother of the victim making an emotional call of GUILTY based on vengeance and convenience.   There is NO doubt in my mind that the night of the arrest Ron Goldman's dad would have been all in on a public flaying, and whether you agree with the outcome or not, OJ WAS found not guilty. 

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2016, 12:16:59 PM »
you can play verbal gymnastics all day long. The bottom line is these two people brutalized helpless infants....there is no question that they did so...and those infants are dead due to these pieces of crap. What I said is, if you perform actions on helpless infants like these guys did...and countless others do everyday, you FORFEIT your rights...as a citizen and as a member of our race. Allowing people like this to continue to breathe is just as big a travesty as what they did to those kids. They cannot be rehabilitated, they will ultimately waste hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars in court costs and incarceration. They sealed their fate IMO.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2016, 12:19:12 PM »
you can play verbal gymnastics all day long. The bottom line is these two people brutalized helpless infants....there is no question that they did so...and those infants are dead due to these pieces of crap. What I said is, if you perform actions on helpless infants like these guys did...and countless others do everyday, you FORFEIT your rights...as a citizen and as a member of our race. Allowing people like this to continue to breathe is just as big a travesty as what they did to those kids. They cannot be rehabilitated, they will ultimately waste hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars in court costs and incarceration. They sealed their fate IMO.

I disagree. I don't think we can forfeit those rights.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2016, 12:25:39 PM »
you can play verbal gymnastics all day long. The bottom line is these two people brutalized helpless infants....there is no question that they did so...and those infants are dead due to these pieces of crap. What I said is, if you perform actions on helpless infants like these guys did...and countless others do everyday, you FORFEIT your rights...as a citizen and as a member of our race. Allowing people like this to continue to breathe is just as big a travesty as what they did to those kids. They cannot be rehabilitated, they will ultimately waste hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars in court costs and incarceration. They sealed their fate IMO.

I disagree. I don't think we can forfeit those rights.

you (and EB) are probably more 'right' than I am. I can't remove myself from the emotion of thinking about a man who shoved his hands and fingers down a crying baby's throat because it's crying and then shaking the  :censored out of it to get it to stop crying....rather than just walking out of the room. Or continually dropping an infant and sexually abusing it....or like the one I read today about a man who sexually abused a 4 month old over and over until she died.....I simply cannot place any value at all on a persons life who does things like that. Is that a massive character flaw and a flaw in my Faith? Yep...it is. People that do those things in my eyes simply do not deserve to live.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2016, 12:28:38 PM »
Verbal gymnastics?

In the process you're calling for innocent people will be executed without a trial. It's absolutely going to happen. And I'd rather err on the side of making sure everyone has due process than being so blood thirsty we end up killing someone who turned up innocent. Again, the only way to be sure is a trial.

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2016, 12:30:08 PM »
@Gary: What age is the cutoff for abuse/murder where a person forfeits all rights? To what level does the abuse need to rise? Is death necessary, or does severe emotional trauma suffice?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but these are the sorts of things that have to be taken into account. Without those considerations, you're creating mob rule, where the laws are based around the mood and emotional state of the day.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2016, 01:05:24 PM »
you can play verbal gymnastics all day long. The bottom line is these two people brutalized helpless infants....there is no question that they did so...and those infants are dead due to these pieces of crap. What I said is, if you perform actions on helpless infants like these guys did...and countless others do everyday, you FORFEIT your rights...as a citizen and as a member of our race. Allowing people like this to continue to breathe is just as big a travesty as what they did to those kids. They cannot be rehabilitated, they will ultimately waste hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars in court costs and incarceration. They sealed their fate IMO.

I respect your position, but "inalienable" means literally and exactly what Adami says:  they can neither be forfeited nor taken away.  Depending how you look at it, one of those rights is "due process" and another of those rights is a protection against "cruel and unusual punishment".  None of this can be just glossed over by saying "you do something I think is bad, you forfeit rights!"

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2016, 05:07:26 PM »
I sympathize with Gary's feelings.  I do.  And I agree that the penalty for such crimes, once all reasonable doubt as to guilt has been removed, should be the harshest.  And I think that maybe we have gotten to the point where we are focused too much on due process to the point that the process has become too slow and cumbersome, and has too many opportunities to the guilty to evade application of justice (maybe).  But the process is incredibly important to protect the rights of all, not just the ones who are guilty of these crimes, but ALL of us.  We cannot just abandon it because we might subjectively want the wheels of justice to move more swiftly and the hammer of justice to fall more forcefully in the most egregious of cases.  We just can't.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2016, 06:57:57 PM »
I sympathize with gmillerdrake.  I can totally relate, and can only imagine the rage I would feel if something like that affected me personally.  Those types of feelings are EXACTLY why the process was created, and why it needs to remain protected.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2016, 07:32:14 PM »
I sympathize with gmillerdrake.  I can totally relate, and can only imagine the rage I would feel if something like that affected me personally.  Those types of feelings are EXACTLY why the process was created, and why it needs to remain protected.

That is a great, great point. The process is there for a reason - following it is the way to stay levelheaded and make correct decisions, when emotions would otherwise make it impossible to do so.

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »
I completely understand and agree with the point you guys are making. Those rights are there for a reason and the system protects against the emotion that I'm clearly giving in to.

My larger point is basically what the title of the thread is. People that do these type of horrific crimes and rape and brutalize infants should have to prove to a jury of their peers why they shouldn't be hung the next day. They get thier trial and a chance. They are guilty when that trial starts, because they are guilty.



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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2016, 08:26:38 PM »
I completely understand and agree with the point you guys are making. Those rights are there for a reason and the system protects against the emotion that I'm clearly giving in to.

My larger point is basically what the title of the thread is. People that do these type of horrific crimes and rape and brutalize infants should have to prove to a jury of their peers why they shouldn't be hung the next day. They get thier trial and a chance. They are guilty when that trial starts, because they are guilty.

You're saying the same thing, just in a different way.  Innocent until proven guilty is an irreplaceable part of the process we say is so important.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2016, 09:53:34 AM »
I completely understand and agree with the point you guys are making. Those rights are there for a reason and the system protects against the emotion that I'm clearly giving in to.

My larger point is basically what the title of the thread is. People that do these type of horrific crimes and rape and brutalize infants should have to prove to a jury of their peers why they shouldn't be hung the next day. They get thier trial and a chance. They are guilty when that trial starts, because they are guilty.

NO NO NO.  You HAVE to have the process exact that guilt from them.  Your passion and zeal to see justice is EXACTLY why that has to happen.  It's a brake ON PURPOSE, to diffuse that emotion and make sure that justice is served in ALL cases.  That's also (in part) why CRIMES (as opposed to civil cases) are tried by an independent prosecutor and not private attorneys hired by the victim, or (if the victim is not available) representatives of the victim.

Once guilt has been established beyond reasonable doubt, THEN perhaps you have the felon plead for their life.  Personally I'm against the death penalty, but I don't make the call on that, legislature does.  If it's there, then at least use it.

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2016, 11:44:55 AM »
Tim Roth, The Hangman, described it damn well in The Hateful Eight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYLLoG8zd74
Justice administered without dispassion is always in danger of not being justice at all.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2016, 11:49:01 AM »
They are guilty when that trial starts, because they are guilty.

Tautology much?

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2016, 11:51:24 AM »
Tim Roth, The Hangman, described it damn well in The Hateful Eight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYLLoG8zd74
Justice administered without dispassion is always in danger of not being justice at all.

 :lol I didn't see that movie, but that dialogue is so Tarantino, makes me want to catch that movie now. 

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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2016, 12:16:51 PM »
They are guilty when that trial starts, because they are guilty.

Tautology much?

Only sometimes but not all the time
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2016, 12:28:49 PM »
Tim Roth, The Hangman, described it damn well in The Hateful Eight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYLLoG8zd74
Justice administered without dispassion is always in danger of not being justice at all.

 :lol I didn't see that movie, but that dialogue is so Tarantino, makes me want to catch that movie now.
The first hour and a half is nothing but Tarantino dialogue and some wonderful super-widescreen cinematography. Following that is an hour of some of the most savage, brutal violence I've ever seen. Yet, thanks to it being a QT film, that hour is still damned entertaining and even comical at times. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Re: Guilty Until Proven Innocent
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2016, 10:24:39 PM »
I completely understand and agree with the point you guys are making. Those rights are there for a reason and the system protects against the emotion that I'm clearly giving in to.

My larger point is basically what the title of the thread is. People that do these type of horrific crimes and rape and brutalize infants should have to prove to a jury of their peers why they shouldn't be hung the next day. They get thier trial and a chance. They are guilty when that trial starts, because they are guilty.

Alright.  I have a thought experiment.  Fair warning: I'm going to do some verbal gymnastics. 

I say we should have two types of trials.

If someone is accused of a crime, we put them on trial to determine whether they are guilty.  If there is insufficient evidence to establish their guilt, they are presumed innocent.  We'll call this trial A.

If someone is guilty of a crime, we put them on trial to determine whether or not they are innocent.  If there is insufficient evidence to establish their innocence, they are presumed guilty.  We'll call this trial B.

Here's the dilemma: How do we decide which trial a person should get?

Sincerely,
Jaffa