Author Topic: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.  (Read 74898 times)

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Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1085 on: October 12, 2016, 08:43:49 AM »
I'm sorry, Progmetty, take this with a grain of salt, but "Greg" doesn't know what he's talking about.  Meaning, whether he realizes it or not, he HAS been impacted

No need to apologize, that's what I thought and told him, I'm just saying there's a lot of people who think that way and I don't blame them since I see all the chaos and negative vibes flowing around the political process. Greg is a very nice guy though, I'll show him your post next time we get together and see if I get a rise out of him :lol


... but all his dedicated followers are, or consider themselves to be.

I don't think that is at all true, at least it wasn't before this Billy Bush debacle.   There are a reasonable amount of people that are moderates that are "Trump" because "Trump"="Not Hillary".  Please don't get sucked into the overly simplistic "black and white" (or should I say, "Red and Blue") analysis that is tres chic (and so very wrong most of the time) these days.

100% with you on not getting sucked into the simplistic analysis, if anything I'm always extra-conscience not to do that, but I said "all his dedicated followers" and you're talking about the "Not Hillary" crowd. And frankly I do not know which of these two crowds are bigger but if his rallies across the nation and both Trump's and conservative social media outlets are any indication; the dedicated followers seem to be the larger portion, they might just be the louder but I'm seeing numbers on those pages and the kind of interactions that tells me they're the many, could be wrong.
On a side note I have much more respect to Trump's dedicated followers than the "Not Hillary" crowd, I could go on about a huge example for something like this happening in my country. The "lesser evil" thing is just not something I subscribe to as a good way of engaging in the political process, I'd rather not vote, but that could be just me.

And that's another thing that concerns me and I don't know how to come about thinking of it; Trump supporters are not going away when he loses, I suspect we'll see more calls for secession and random shenanigans of the sort, this time it maybe more serious than ever. I've got nothing to ground these assumptions on except their outstanding passion, I hope I'm wrong. Trump is not helping matters either as every rally I watch for him on youtube he speaks of the possibility of election fraud, asking people to be "vigilant" at their voting locations and gesturing that it's the only way he'd lose.

You give the American people - and their attention spans - too much credit.  I think, if Trump loses, you'll see some faux backslapping at how courageous these people were, they'll be some finger pointing (how much depends on how the Congressional races go) and in two years, we'll be back to "Us versus Them" politics as usual.   Some of this aspect to the election is not unprecedented (after Bush's reelection, after Obama's first election and reelection). 

I disagree, I think Trump's followers passion is unprecedented by some considerable margin, I've followed American presidential elections since the Al Gore/Bush one in 2000 and sure there always was a lot of mud slinging and chest beating but never this aggressive or enraged. I hope I'm wrong.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Online El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1086 on: October 12, 2016, 08:44:41 AM »
I don't really know the history of Billy Bush but he seems to be getting a bum deal out of all of this. The dude is getting fired over shit he said 11 years ago. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was held accountable for things I said a decade ago when I was in my early 20's I would be unemployed as well. The hypocrisy in this country around who get's second chances and why just astounds me.

I think the worst thing is, he is being fired FOR DOING HIS JOB.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is NOT fucking Walter Cronkite here.  He's a talking head who made his bones on a half hour entertainment gossip show (the very show he was working on while on the bus with Trump).  He was doing EXACTLY what he was being paid to do:  dig dirt on celebrities and pimp it on his show.   

(By the way, anyone else who ACTUALLY heard the tape chuckle at the notion of this huge bus navigating a parking lot and hearing the disembodied voices of Bill Bush and Don Trump talking about "pussy"?   If not for the underlying subtext - which I don't want to minimize or mock - it would be HILARIOUS.)

Agreed.  Billy looks like collateral damage from all of this and I'm wondering if he has a lawsuit waiting.  The guy however, has always been a bit on the creepy side.  I don't think the Trump news is actually anything new for him in reality either.
The dude came across as 10x the doucebag Donald did. I'm generally on the side of people who get dumped on for their comments, and I'll defend him for his right to be scum, but I'm not sympathetic to the guy in the slightest. Fuck, even Trump looked put out by his douchebaggery.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1087 on: October 12, 2016, 08:55:21 AM »
I thought Billy was W and Jeb's little brother, turns out they're his cousins.
Billy defended Ryan Lochte, I don't think he should have been suspended for the Trump pussy grabbing conversation but it squares off nicely since he defended that douche heh
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1088 on: October 12, 2016, 11:28:35 AM »
I would say I'm on-board with social liberals about 75% (I have some reservations about a few wedge issues), and I'm on-board with economic conservatives about 50% (I want robust social programs, but let's fix the root causes of waste before we write public universities a blank check, for example). Could a Republican produce a candidate I really like? It's possible. It all depends how they respond to this Trump nightmare.

We could quibble on some of the numbers (my 50% would be a little higher, I assume, but based on your rationale, which I agree with, maybe not) but that's how I would describe myself.   

I feel like you're hitting on something, though, and while I don't want to open wounds, I would put Bernie here as well:  I don't know that Trump fits nicely into "percentages" in that way.  I think both Bernie and Trump appeal to the "economics?  Wha?" crowds in their respective parties.  Neither really address the social aspects as clearly as I'm sure many would like. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1089 on: October 12, 2016, 11:33:19 AM »
I don't understand their obsession with him or why for a second they think he's going to save them.

The kicker is that they are all having record sales years. They have all had to divert jobs to next spring because there was simply not enough time this summer to fit everything in. They've literally turned dollars away this year because so many cities are spending money and so many businesses are being built. They can't keep up with the demand. Yet, the world is in the shitter and we all need to vote Trump to save us.

Was it really all that different in aught 8 or '12?   I know, you'll point to the recession, but the idea still remains, that it's not as simple as "logical threat".  It's sometimes the threat of a threat, you know?

Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1090 on: October 12, 2016, 11:46:42 AM »
I don't understand their obsession with him or why for a second they think he's going to save them.

The kicker is that they are all having record sales years. They have all had to divert jobs to next spring because there was simply not enough time this summer to fit everything in. They've literally turned dollars away this year because so many cities are spending money and so many businesses are being built. They can't keep up with the demand. Yet, the world is in the shitter and we all need to vote Trump to save us.

Was it really all that different in aught 8 or '12?   I know, you'll point to the recession, but the idea still remains, that it's not as simple as "logical threat".  It's sometimes the threat of a threat, you know?

Yeah, I hear yah. They did take a hit in those early recession years, but they kept their heads above thanks to the winter months. Asphalt is more of a luxury than a necessity in the majority of cases, but no matter what the economy, snow needs to be moved and salt/sand put down.  But either way, this is her father's busiest year to date, even better than the mid 90s. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1091 on: October 12, 2016, 12:21:09 PM »
Billy Bush shouldn't have been fired because of this fiasco.

He should have been fired long ago for being a no-talent hack and for being creepy as fuck pretty much all the time (see his "highlight reel" from this past Sunday's John Oliver show).  TBH, I am shocked that he has been employed all this time.
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Offline TAC

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1092 on: October 12, 2016, 12:35:27 PM »
I literally had never even heard of the guy before this.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1093 on: October 12, 2016, 12:38:40 PM »
I literally had never even heard of the guy before this.

Same

Offline pogoowner

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1094 on: October 12, 2016, 12:39:13 PM »
Billy Bush shouldn't have been fired because of this fiasco.

He should have been fired long ago for being a no-talent hack and for being creepy as fuck pretty much all the time (see his "highlight reel" from this past Sunday's John Oliver show).  TBH, I am shocked that he has been employed all this time.
I could never stand him. I loved seeing Al Roker disagree with him so strongly over Ryan Lochte. Whether that means he should be fired, I don't know, but I certainly didn't enjoy watching anything he ever did, and bringing in viewers is essentially his job.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1095 on: October 12, 2016, 01:15:01 PM »
I don't really know the history of Billy Bush but he seems to be getting a bum deal out of all of this. The dude is getting fired over shit he said 11 years ago. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was held accountable for things I said a decade ago when I was in my early 20's I would be unemployed as well. The hypocrisy in this country around who get's second chances and why just astounds me.

There are just too many overly sensitive people with too much power.


Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1096 on: October 13, 2016, 07:28:25 AM »
Thought this was a refreshing and accurate perspective on voting from Mike Rowe (it's a little long but worth the read):

He was asked:
Quote
Hey Mike, I have nothing but respect for you. Your no-nonsense outlook and incredible eloquence have really had a profound impact in my life. Can you please encourage your huge following to go out and vote this election? I would never impose on you by asking you to advocate one politician over another, but I do feel this election could really use your help. I know that there are many people out there who feel like there is nothing they can do. Please try to use your gifts to make them see that they can do something – that their vote counts.

His response:
Quote
Hi Jeremy

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. I also share your concern for our country, and agree wholeheartedly that every vote counts. However, I’m afraid I can’t encourage millions of people whom I’ve never met to just run out and cast a ballot, simply because they have the right to vote. That would be like encouraging everyone to buy an AR-15, simply because they have the right to bear arms. I would need to know a few things about them before offering that kind of encouragement. For instance, do they know how to care for a weapon? Can they afford the cost of the weapon? Do they have a history of violence? Are they mentally stable? In short, are they responsible citizens?

Casting a ballot is not so different. It’s an important right that we all share, and one that impacts our society in dramatic fashion. But it’s one thing to respect and acknowledge our collective rights, and quite another thing to affirmatively encourage people I’ve never met to exercise them. And yet, my friends in Hollywood do that very thing, and they’re at it again.

Every four years, celebrities and movie stars look earnestly into the camera and tell the country to “get out and vote.” They tell us it’s our “most important civic duty,” and they speak as if the very act of casting a ballot is more important than the outcome of the election. This strikes me as somewhat hysterical. Does anyone actually believe that Leonardo DiCaprio, Ellen DeGeneres, and Ed Norton would encourage the “masses” to vote, if they believed the “masses” would elect Donald Trump?

Regardless of their political agenda, my celebrity pals are fundamentally mistaken about our “civic duty” to vote. There is simply no such thing. Voting is a right, not a duty, and not a moral obligation. Like all rights, the right to vote comes with some responsibilities, but lets face it – the bar is not set very high. If you believe aliens from another planet walk among us, you are welcome at the polls. If you believe the world is flat, and the moon landing was completely staged, you are invited to cast a ballot. Astrologists, racists, ghost-hunters, sexists, and people who rely upon a Magic 8 Ball to determine their daily wardrobe are all allowed to participate. In fact, and to your point, they’re encouraged.

The undeniable reality is this: our right to vote does not require any understanding of current events, or any awareness of how our government works. So, when a celebrity reminds the country that “everybody’s vote counts,” they are absolutely correct. But when they tell us that “everybody in the country should get out there and vote,” regardless of what they think or believe, I gotta wonder what they’re smoking.

Look at our current candidates. No one appears to like either one of them. Their approval ratings are at record lows. It’s not about who you like more, it’s about who you hate less. Sure, we can blame the media, the system, and the candidates themselves, but let’s be honest – Donald and Hillary are there because we put them there. The electorate has tolerated the intolerable. We’ve treated this entire process like the final episode of American Idol. What did we expect?

So no, Jeremy – I can’t personally encourage everyone in the country to run out and vote. I wouldn’t do it, even if I thought it would benefit my personal choice. Because the truth is, the country doesn’t need voters who have to be cajoled, enticed, or persuaded to cast a ballot. We need voters who wish to participate in the process. So if you really want me to say something political, how about this – read more.

Spend a few hours every week studying American history, human nature, and economic theory. Start with “Economics in One Lesson.” Then try Keynes. Then Hayek. Then Marx. Then Hegel. Develop a worldview that you can articulate as well as defend. Test your theory with people who disagree with you. Debate. Argue. Adjust your philosophy as necessary. Then, when the next election comes around, cast a vote for the candidate whose worldview seems most in line with your own.

Or, don’t. None of the freedoms spelled out in our Constitution were put there so people could cast uninformed ballots out of some misplaced sense of civic duty brought on by a celebrity guilt-trip. The right to assemble, to protest, to speak freely – these rights were included to help assure that the best ideas and the best candidates would emerge from the most transparent process possible.

Remember – there’s nothing virtuous or patriotic about voting just for the sake of voting, and the next time someone tells you otherwise, do me a favor – ask them who they’re voting for. Then tell them you’re voting for their opponent. Then, see if they’ll give you a ride to the polls.

In the meantime, dig into “Economics in One Lesson,” by Henry Hazlitt. It sounds like a snooze but it really is a page turner, and you can download it for free.

Mike


SOURCE:
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2016/10/12/mike-rowe-shares-wise-opinion-voting/

Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1097 on: October 13, 2016, 07:41:10 AM »
I love Mike Rowe. Such a good dude.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1098 on: October 13, 2016, 07:47:27 AM »
I love Mike Rowe. Such a good dude.

Generally speaking yes. I just thought it was a refreshing perspective on voting. Like he emphasized, not the message you usually hear from celebrities around elections.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1099 on: October 13, 2016, 08:10:27 AM »
It was a well written piece.

That said, for some reason, Mike Rowe's "sage of the proletariat" persona bugs me.  I don't know why, it just does.  Call it a Mike Rowe aggression, I guess.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1100 on: October 13, 2016, 08:36:30 AM »
That was a great read. Thanks for sharing.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1101 on: October 13, 2016, 10:51:56 AM »
Spot on :clap:
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1102 on: October 13, 2016, 10:57:17 AM »
I'd take Mike Row for Pres. over either current candidate in a heartbeat.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1103 on: October 13, 2016, 11:00:59 AM »
I'd take Mike Row for Pres. over either current candidate in a heartbeat.

I'd take my car's shifter knob over either of the current candidates.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1104 on: October 13, 2016, 11:20:31 AM »
I'd take Mike Row for Pres. over either current candidate in a heartbeat.

I'd take my car's shifter knob over either of the current candidates.

Me too! Maybe we can all just write in Chino's Knob for president. I bet Trump and maybe even Hillary would grab that!

In all seriousness, I've been trying to decide what I'm going to do. I'm leaning towards not voting for president and just voting for the other stuff.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1105 on: October 13, 2016, 11:23:29 AM »
This is all sounding too much like a cheesy adult movie:

Chino's GF:  I can't decide who to vote for
Chino:  Vote for my knob
Chino's GF:  I'd pull that lever any day!



Brown chicken brown cow

Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1106 on: October 13, 2016, 11:28:52 AM »
#Knob2016

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1107 on: October 13, 2016, 12:17:27 PM »
2015 - Year of the Cone
2016 - Year of the Knob
2017 - Year of the....

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1108 on: October 13, 2016, 12:45:25 PM »




Brown chicken brown cow

Took me three repeats in my head before I got that. 

Consider this STOLEN!

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1109 on: October 13, 2016, 12:48:15 PM »
I guess I should say that when I advocate for people to go and vote, I advocate that they participate in the political process, i.e. do your due diligence and know what offices are up for election in your area, find out who is running and what there views are, and make informed choices.

I don't mean that people should go off willy-nilly voting at random.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1110 on: October 13, 2016, 12:57:29 PM »
I wrote this somewhere else, but one of the things that really concerns me most is the general ramifications from this.  I've long joked that "why would anyone with any sense run for President?" and this year has really reinforced the notion that any NORMAL person would NEVER run for this job.  No reasonable life can withstand this level of scrutiny.   

Is anyone SO perfect that they can with a straight face say that they've never done ANYTHING more than ten years ago that can't be spun into something of merit?   I'm not saying we're all lecherous perverts, I'm saying that can withstand the scrutiny of the full force of a media looking to bury you.   We're at the level now where there is absolutely ZERO context and absolutely ZERO time 'proximity' to events (meaning, I can have an interaction with a woman now, and it won't come back to me for decades, and not unless or until I am in the public spotlight. 

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1111 on: October 13, 2016, 01:19:52 PM »
I see Donald Trump has entered his "blame the jews" portion of his campaign.

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1112 on: October 13, 2016, 01:29:03 PM »
I guess I should say that when I advocate for people to go and vote, I advocate that they participate in the political process, i.e. do your due diligence and know what offices are up for election in your area, find out who is running and what there views are, and make informed choices.

I don't mean that people should go off willy-nilly voting at random.

 :tup

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1113 on: October 13, 2016, 01:57:13 PM »
I guess I should say that when I advocate for people to go and vote, I advocate that they participate in the political process, i.e. do your due diligence and know what offices are up for election in your area, find out who is running and what there views are, and make informed choices.

the most difficult thing for me is voting for which Judge(s) should retain their bench or voting in new ones. It's always tedious sifting through or finding info on their careers online....which...regretfully I'm way behind on this year.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1114 on: October 13, 2016, 02:14:40 PM »
I wrote this somewhere else, but one of the things that really concerns me most is the general ramifications from this.  I've long joked that "why would anyone with any sense run for President?" and this year has really reinforced the notion that any NORMAL person would NEVER run for this job.  No reasonable life can withstand this level of scrutiny.   

Is anyone SO perfect that they can with a straight face say that they've never done ANYTHING more than ten years ago that can't be spun into something of merit?   I'm not saying we're all lecherous perverts, I'm saying that can withstand the scrutiny of the full force of a media looking to bury you.   We're at the level now where there is absolutely ZERO context and absolutely ZERO time 'proximity' to events (meaning, I can have an interaction with a woman now, and it won't come back to me for decades, and not unless or until I am in the public spotlight.
.

I'm assuming this why the likes of Ryan, Rice, etc. didn't run this time.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1115 on: October 13, 2016, 02:18:19 PM »
I guess I should say that when I advocate for people to go and vote, I advocate that they participate in the political process, i.e. do your due diligence and know what offices are up for election in your area, find out who is running and what there views are, and make informed choices.

the most difficult thing for me is voting for which Judge(s) should retain their bench or voting in new ones. It's always tedious sifting through or finding info on their careers online....which...regretfully I'm way behind on this year.

Agreed. Here in Omaha there are two judges who will be out for sure (one set a ridiculously low bond rate for an illegal immigrant who killed someone drunk driving and is now on the lamb, the other refuses to allow sheriffs or police witness carry side arms into the court room) but beyond that I have no idea about any other judges. I remember years back when I went to Denver to see DT and Iron Maiden seeing a commercial about a website (not sure if it was state run or not) that was dedicated to providing information on judges. I would love something like that here.

 Unfortunately sometimes I just vote based on if people have funny names. Pretty sure I voted for Jack Frost once to lead some board or another.

Offline Genowyn

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1116 on: October 13, 2016, 06:54:14 PM »
The concept of electing judges seems insane to me. It puts judges in a position of making judgments/sentencing not in a way that's just, but in a way that looks good come election time. It's within arm's reach of terrifying dystopia.

...my name is Araragi.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1117 on: October 13, 2016, 07:02:16 PM »
Sadly, I suspect most judges get elected based on the letter after their name.

I once got a postcard from some guy running for judge that was a picture of him, his wife, and their 18 kids. I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks. There's no way I want him in a role where his judgement is actually a matter of import.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1118 on: October 13, 2016, 07:47:56 PM »
Sadly, I suspect most judges get elected based on the letter after their name.

I once got a postcard from some guy running for judge that was a picture of him, his wife, and their 18 kids. I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks. There's no way I want him in a role where his judgement is actually a matter of import.

The ballots in Missouri do not identify the judges political affiliation. Only thier name. And it's typically "Should Judge John Doe Retain his/her position?" And it's a yes or no.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1119 on: October 13, 2016, 07:55:51 PM »
I once got a postcard from some guy running for judge that was a picture of him, his wife, and their 18 kids. I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

 :rollin
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.