Author Topic: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.  (Read 74923 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #105 on: August 12, 2016, 01:24:07 PM »
The one death that I do find interesting is the one shown here earlier:

In regards to the Clinton body count that has been discussed here...

Any one hear about Seth Rich?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/08/wow-breaking-video-julian-assange-suggests-seth-rich-wikileaks-dnc-source-shot-dead-dc/

I'll throw in a more "mainstream" news source as well:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/wikileaks-offers-reward-in-killing-of-dnc-staffer-in-washington/2016/08/09/f84fcbf4-5e5b-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html

Not so much as in "clintons are behind it" but because of the whole whistleblower aspect of it and the danger these people put themselves in. 

Personally, I feel like the Clintons themselves likely have nothing to do with any of the deaths.  They are too high up the chain to be involved in things like that, however, I do believe it's conceivable that others within the realm of the Clintons (or Bushes from the past) were involved in some way, but there is no reason for me to think the Clintons have any real associations with any of the deaths that have been talked about.
And yet you have to weigh the likelihood of a botched robbery vs a retaliatory assassination. It's not like he was whacked before the leak. This is the sort of thing that bugs me. "They said it was a "robbery" but no money was taken." Yeah, we call those botched robberies. Anybody remember Sean Taylor?

Hmmm. Sean Taylor played in Washington DC.  :o
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #106 on: August 12, 2016, 01:38:32 PM »

People keep saying there is no evidence against Hillary yet that has never been said. How many times has it been repeated in the other thread that evidence was actually found?
I phrased my remark poorly. If there was a ton of evidence which slipped right off of her, and I'm not denying that here, BTW, why do you think she needed to kill people to protect herself?


 
Quote
Why is it "Gomer Pyle level logic" to assume a criminal will repeat a crime? Again, not saying they repeated it 90 times, but it's not foreign to assume that someone who would have someone killed once would shy away from doing it a couple of more times. I think there's a big difference in having it done a few times as opposed to a hundred.
Because it's circular reasoning. There's no evidence that they're murderers, yet most of the allegations rely on the fact that the Clintons are already notorious killers. Without that presumption it's even more foolish. And while you can actually make a claim that they're criminals, that doesn't suggest a propensity for crimes other than the sorts they've already been found guilty of. You can't accuse a lifelong writer of bad checks of raping children just because "well, criminals will be criminals."
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #107 on: August 12, 2016, 01:50:47 PM »
As one of the people that consistently calls HIllary a "criminal", I'm surprisingly far into El Barto's camp on this.  I don't think they're killers - primarily because I don't think they're stupid - and I am not of the "well he kited a check so therefore he HAD to have killed that person" camp.   I'm more along the lines of the "white collar" crime, where it's probably more sleazy than outright "criminal", and more "treasonous" than "mafia".   

I think Hillary has problems with the truth.   I think she - like, incidentally not a few lawyers I know - act first and explain later.  Everything can be explained away with proper weaving and highlighting of certain facts while downplaying others.   My beef with Hillary is as you get to the edges of that.   Where the "truth" becomes not a blight on her record, but rather a real impact on people's lives.  Benghazi comes to mind; whether she did or didn't isn't the point here, but people died.   So if she DID there has to be an accounting, not a slippery post facto explanation meant to pin it on a fall guy and preserve the legacy.   The buck is supposed to stop with the President, and I can't name a single event - that isn't a "horn blowing event" - that Hillary as said "Wait, that's on ME.".  No accountability. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #108 on: August 12, 2016, 02:13:23 PM »
I don't think they're killers - primarily because I don't think they're stupid
This is the deathblow to so many conspiracies. Actually doing what you're accused of is usually amazingly stupid compared to ignoring it and letting whatever happens happen. Why blow up the WTC when there are so many people itching to do it themselves? Why burn up the Branch Davidians when you already know they're batshit insane and suicidal? Why kill a whistle-blower after he's blown the whistle? Why stage a school shooting when they're already happening with some regularity? All you wind up doing is creating massive pitfalls in the cover ups.

I think Hillary has problems with the truth.   I think she - like, incidentally not a few lawyers I know - act first and explain later.  Everything can be explained away with proper weaving and highlighting of certain facts while downplaying others.   My beef with Hillary is as you get to the edges of that.   Where the "truth" becomes not a blight on her record, but rather a real impact on people's lives.  Benghazi comes to mind; whether she did or didn't isn't the point here, but people died.   So if she DID there has to be an accounting, not a slippery post facto explanation meant to pin it on a fall guy and preserve the legacy.   The buck is supposed to stop with the President, and I can't name a single event - that isn't a "horn blowing event" - that Hillary as said "Wait, that's on ME.".  No accountability. 
Yeah, I'm largely there with ya. Sadly, the buck stops here is a product of a bygone era. I didn't blame Hillary or Obama for Benghazi. Shit happens, after all. I did blame them both for not caring enough to find out exactly why it happened, though. Ironically, I think Bill Clinton actually was one to accept ultimate responsibility for failure. Before him you go back to Carter who was remarkably forthcoming.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #109 on: August 12, 2016, 02:20:13 PM »
I think Hillary has problems with the truth.   I think she - like, incidentally not a few lawyers I know - act first and explain later.  Everything can be explained away with proper weaving and highlighting of certain facts while downplaying others.   My beef with Hillary is as you get to the edges of that.   Where the "truth" becomes not a blight on her record, but rather a real impact on people's lives.  Benghazi comes to mind; whether she did or didn't isn't the point here, but people died.   So if she DID there has to be an accounting, not a slippery post facto explanation meant to pin it on a fall guy and preserve the legacy.   The buck is supposed to stop with the President, and I can't name a single event - that isn't a "horn blowing event" - that Hillary as said "Wait, that's on ME.".  No accountability. 
Yeah, I'm largely there with ya. Sadly, the buck stops here is a product of a bygone era. I didn't blame Hillary or Obama for Benghazi. Shit happens, after all. I did blame them both for not caring enough to find out exactly why it happened, though. Ironically, I think Bill Clinton actually was one to accept ultimate responsibility for failure. Before him you go back to Carter who was remarkably forthcoming.

It's actually amazing to think of how much respect you earn when you just admit a failure.  We all have failures in life, that's part of it.  Acknowledging it is the first step to learning from it. 

Offline 73109

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #110 on: August 12, 2016, 03:28:09 PM »
Here's what makes no sense to me about the whole "Trump is a plant" conspiracy:

Do you know how much would have to be known/guessed/assumed before he decided to agree to run? When he initially announced and in the subsequent weeks, no one gave him a chance. He was just some shit-for-brains who was saying dumb and provocative shit because "lolTrumpsaysitlikeitis." No one predicted that he would rise to the top. His chances just kept increasing...2%...5%...25%...50%, etc. If he were a plant, he and the Clintons would have to have known that he would be able to spew enough shit, get the media focused on him, have a large contingent of the American populace attach to him like the Orange Jesus they think he is.

If that is true—which it almost certainly isn't—it says a lot about the people who would vote for him. The tens of millions who are going to cast their ballot for him in November, including the few here who will or those who just decided to stop because a particular stop on the crazy-train is just too crazy. If you can fall for a plant, that says more about you and the manipulability of a large swath of Americans than it does about those colluding to get you to vote for someone.

And before anyone asks, I am not a "Clinton supporter" who thinks she can do no wrong. I absolutely despise her and will end up voting for a third party candidate if she is polling high enough in Illinois. I've just become sort of a one-issue voter: making sure the species that live here keep on living here for as long as humanly possible. And I'm going to vote for the person who might inch us closer to keeping our asses here rather than someone who wants us to go out screaming like Major Kong riding his nuclear fucking bomb.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2016, 07:41:24 AM »
Just thinking aloud, the "Trump is a Clinton plant" conspiracy....

If Trump was just intended to be a candidate to absorb all the bad press, in turn Hillary's issues would not be addressed by the media nearly as much...

Do you know how much would have to be known/guessed/assumed before he decided to agree to run? When he initially announced and in the subsequent weeks, no one gave him a chance. He was just some shit-for-brains who was saying dumb and provocative shit because "lolTrumpsaysitlikeitis." No one predicted that he would rise to the top. His chances just kept increasing...2%...5%...25%...50%, etc. If he were a plant, he and the Clintons would have to have known that he would be able to spew enough shit, get the media focused on him, have a large contingent of the American populace attach to him like the Orange Jesus they think he is.

It still could make sense though. Even if those percentage numbers didn't go up in the primaries I could easily see Trump running independent and still making all these crazy media headlines as a third party candidate and achieving the same result for Clinton (taking attention and criticism).

I honestly never thought this conspiracy could be remotely true, but the last couple weeks have been really bad, even to Trump standards.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2016, 07:52:00 AM »
After reading a couple articles over the weekend on polling, I'm not so sure that Clinton is 'blowing' Trump out of the water like a couple of these polls suggest. This could turn out to look like what obama did to Romney when Romney had a full head of steam heading into the election and was polling well....then got trounced. With (4) months to go...at least three debates and plenty of time for more revelations about just how corrupt hillary is to get splashed around, I'm not so sure Trump is dead in the water.


Could you imagine if it were revealed that Trump donated $18 million dollars to himself in 'charitable donations'....what the media would do to him? Yet, when it's revealed that's exactly what hillary did last year not a freakin' peep. The media bias has officially entered the 'comical' stage.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2016, 08:09:04 AM »
I am in no way defending or endorsing her by saying this (given the DNC business was pretty rotten): I think stories of Clinton corruption are greatly exaggerated. Like on the level of "Wikileaks got our emails from the Russians" ridiculousness.

This is why conspiracy theories are silly.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #114 on: August 16, 2016, 01:20:09 PM »
I am in no way defending or endorsing her by saying this (given the DNC business was pretty rotten): I think stories of Clinton corruption are greatly exaggerated.
I agree.

Certainly not squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination, but also certainly not the antichrist figure perpetuated by so many on the right.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #115 on: August 16, 2016, 01:57:37 PM »
I am in no way defending or endorsing her by saying this (given the DNC business was pretty rotten): I think stories of Clinton corruption are greatly exaggerated.
I agree.

Certainly not squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination, but also certainly not the antichrist figure perpetuated by so many on the right.

I personally don't think she's the antichrist. The Antichrist will be a globally well liked figure, someone who brings a false sense of unity and peace to all. She has nowhere near the charisma, temperment, desire or capability to pull off such a feat.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2016, 07:40:44 PM »
I am in no way defending or endorsing her by saying this (given the DNC business was pretty rotten): I think stories of Clinton corruption are greatly exaggerated.
I agree.

Certainly not squeaky clean by any stretch of the imagination, but also certainly not the antichrist figure perpetuated by so many on the right.

I personally don't think she's the antichrist. The Antichrist will be a globally well liked figure, someone who brings a false sense of unity and peace to all. She has nowhere near the charisma, temperment, desire or capability to pull off such a feat.

Seriously. I think the Antichrist would be a classy guy, a master manipulator, and wouldn't have their scandalous business saturating the news. They'd get away with it.

Offline Adami

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2016, 07:54:10 PM »
So the most likely candidate for Antichrist is......Dick Van Dyke?
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2016, 08:34:59 PM »
So the most likely candidate for Antichrist is......Dick Van Dyke?

I'm thinking 'The Rock' or maybe Ellen.
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Offline Adami

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2016, 08:44:21 PM »
So the most likely candidate for Antichrist is......Dick Van Dyke?

I'm thinking 'The Rock' or maybe Ellen.

I can see (and disagree with) some people not liking Dwayne and Ellen. But no one.....NO ONE dislikes Dick Van Dyke. That dude alone could probably end all wars just by asking people to get along. Yet he chooses not to....

....because he's the antichrist.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2016, 08:59:34 PM »
I seem to recall that Dick Van Dyke had a some pretty big character flaw. I don't think he was a raging asshole (that would be Andy Griffith), but I think he was a pretty mean drunk.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2016, 05:53:10 AM »
With Trump's new manager switch, I can't help but think that the job of president isn't what Trump is after. I'll bet a dollar that after his loss in November he puts together a Trump News Network that will deliver 'unbiased news'.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2016, 05:55:30 AM »
Call him crazy, but I think Michael Moore was right on the money. I think he's been sabotaging his campaign on purpose.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2016, 05:59:28 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2016, 06:43:06 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

IMO he's a lot like Trump. I can agree with a lot that he 'believes' but his presentation and personality ruin it for me. He comes off too smug and condescending for my taste.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2016, 07:14:09 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

IMO he's a lot like Trump. I can agree with a lot that he 'believes' but his presentation and personality ruin it for me. He comes off too smug and condescending for my taste.

That's because he's part of the liberal Hollywood elite. Personally, I think he made an ass of himself when he made that Bush video after 9/11.

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2016, 07:20:56 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

IMO he's a lot like Trump. I can agree with a lot that he 'believes' but his presentation and personality ruin it for me. He comes off too smug and condescending for my taste.

That's because he's part of the liberal Hollywood elite. Personally, I think he made an ass of himself when he made that Bush video after 9/11.

Michael Moore's video on Columbine was pretty good I thought, everything else after that has made me dislike him. 

Offline Elite

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2016, 07:24:30 AM »
I just read the post on his website and it looks quie convincing indeed.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2016, 07:29:07 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

IMO he's a lot like Trump. I can agree with a lot that he 'believes' but his presentation and personality ruin it for me. He comes off too smug and condescending for my taste.

That's because he's part of the liberal Hollywood elite. Personally, I think he made an ass of himself when he made that Bush video after 9/11.

Michael Moore's video on Columbine was pretty good I thought, everything else after that has made me dislike him.

I don't think I saw that one. As Alex Jones calls him in a rant of his, he's a blubber butt.  :lol  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js1D1hMTC0g

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2016, 07:40:17 AM »
Alex Jones is no shining star of humility and decency himself.
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Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2016, 07:43:49 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

IMO he's a lot like Trump. I can agree with a lot that he 'believes' but his presentation and personality ruin it for me. He comes off too smug and condescending for my taste.

That's because he's part of the liberal Hollywood elite. Personally, I think he made an ass of himself when he made that Bush video after 9/11.

Michael Moore's video on Columbine was pretty good I thought, everything else after that has made me dislike him.

I thought "Capitalism: A Love Story" was good as well. That and BFC are the only ones I've watched in their entirety. I think he's better at doing interviews and participating on panels than he is at making films. He's been great every time he's been on Real Time.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2016, 08:09:12 AM »
I seem to recall that Dick Van Dyke had a some pretty big character flaw. I don't think he was a raging asshole (that would be Andy Griffith), but I think he was a pretty mean drunk.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2016, 08:15:33 AM »
I don't agree with every word out of his mouth, but Moore is a really smart guy who actually cares about this country and its people, and I think he gets way more hate than he deserves.

IMO he's a lot like Trump. I can agree with a lot that he 'believes' but his presentation and personality ruin it for me. He comes off too smug and condescending for my taste.

That's because he's part of the liberal Hollywood elite. Personally, I think he made an ass of himself when he made that Bush video after 9/11.

Michael Moore's video on Columbine was pretty good I thought, everything else after that has made me dislike him.

I thought "Capitalism: A Love Story" was good as well. That and BFC are the only ones I've watched in their entirety. I think he's better at doing interviews and participating on panels than he is at making films. He's been great every time he's been on Real Time.

He's got a modicum of talent, but I have to put him in the "too-smug-for-their-own-and-our-good, liberal Hollywood elite".  He's just flat out WRONG on his facts too often to be taken seriously.  It's my big beef with the Stewart's of the world as well; they have a master, and it's the audience that wants to hear what it WANTS to hear, not what it NEEDS to hear, and so truth and factual accuracy is sacrificed for the message.   I'll bet if you tied down Michael Moore and threatened him with flushing his donuts down the crapper, he'd confess that he feels he and his cronies in Hollywood - blowing smoke up his ass about how "right" he is - have 20 to 25 IQ points on even the smartest person living between the Rocky Mountains and the Blue Ridge Mountains.  His open and unabashed contempt for anyone that doesn't automatically see things HIS WAY is a huge red flag for me, and makes it hard to take him seriously.

I don't doubt his integrity from the standpoint of him believing it, but I do doubt his integrity to present contrasting views and multiple sides to each issue.    it's all just "CORPORATIONS!  BAD!  BUSH!  BAD!"

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2016, 02:07:28 PM »

Offline Lucien

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #135 on: August 18, 2016, 02:08:42 PM »
Not sure how this relates to the presidential race

well, it was one of bernie sanders' big policies
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2016, 02:11:53 PM »
Not sure how this relates to the presidential race

well, it was one of bernie sanders' big policies

Then a good one for Bernie, I didn't see much talk about this during the primary cycle myself.  I've never been a fan of private prisons.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #137 on: August 18, 2016, 02:44:27 PM »
As I've said in the past, imprisoning people should be painful. It should cost you money. Trying to get around that only creates problems. Unfortunately, nobody gives a shit about prisoners, and in some cases the cheaper and more miserable you can make a prison, the more the citizens will clamor for you to do it. While the federal government stops renewing CCA's contracts, the State of Texas will gladly pick them up.

Perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not, there are plenty of references to the recent undercover expose on privatized prisons that Mother Jones did. I'm reading that now. Sounds about like what you'd expect when you're trying to house bad people en masse as inexpensively as possible.

Quote
He asks us what we should do if we see two inmates stabbing each other.

"I'd probably call somebody," a cadet offers.

"I'd sit there and holler 'stop,'" says a veteran guard.

Mr. Tucker points at her. "Damn right. That's it. If they don't pay attention to you, hey, there ain't nothing else you can do."

He cups his hands around his mouth. "Stop fighting," he says to some invisible prisoners. "I said, 'Stop fighting.'" His voice is nonchalant. "Y'all ain't go' to stop, huh?" He makes like he's backing out of a door and slams it shut. "Leave your ass in there!"

"Somebody's go' win. Somebody's go' lose. They both might lose, but hey, did you do your job? Hell yeah!" The classroom erupts in laughter.

We could try to break up a fight if we wanted, he says, but since we won't have pepper spray or a nightstick, he wouldn't recommend it. "We are not going to pay you that much," he says emphatically. "The next raise you get is not going to be much more than the one you got last time. The only thing that's important to us is that we go home at the end of the day. Period. So if them fools want to cut each other, well, happy cutting."

Sounds a helluva lot like the experience a certain highly unpopular record producer had with Wackenhut in Texas a few years back. I don't have time to look for the original sources, but here's my post on it some time ago. http://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=42406.msg1884786#msg1884786
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #138 on: August 18, 2016, 10:11:19 PM »
I've watched about a dozen youtube videos of Trump rallies over the last year, not as much since he won the nomination but today I read an article on Reuters about how Trump made a speech in Charlotte earlier today where he said all the right things the Republican party has been wanting him to say all along, including admitting to "saying the wrong things" occasionally, so I thought to check it out.
So all Trump rallies I've watched before had opening speakers that were somewhat prestigious right wing figures, relatively of course, but this one was very different, ridiculous to the point that made Trump sound like the most civilized restrained person to be on that stage today.
Without further ado I present to you Diamond and Silk, projecting the most hysterical stereotypical caricatures of black women I've ever seen in a non-comedy context.
That is just my pick for a highlight, if you got time I'd recommend watching all the opening speakers, especially the one the follows Diamond and Silk, a guy who at one point says "all lives matter, black lives matter, white lives matter, Asian lives matter, Indian lives matter, yellow lives matter".
I tell you folks you can't make this shit up, you can try, but you'll fail. In the words of Mr. Kenny Bania "This is gold Jerry, Gold!"
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #139 on: August 19, 2016, 05:57:50 AM »
Michael Moore was on The Kelly File a while back, and he and Megyn Kelly had a very nice interview and conversation.  Both come off very well. :tup :tup