Author Topic: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts  (Read 2765 times)

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Offline zappafrank2112

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The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« on: July 29, 2016, 12:58:29 AM »
There's a natural break right after "Three Days," and I honestly think a slight intermission there would help the album flow better.  80 minutes is way too long for the 1st disc considering how similar so many of the more ballad-y songs feel to one another.

The breakdown would be about 37 minutes, 43 minutes, and 50 minutes.  This is MUCH more manageable than 80 and 50.  The song "6DoIT" works fine as one disc at 42 minutes long, so there's no reason why we couldn't have had 2 discs around that length.  The feel of the songs and the parts of the stories are self contained enough that each act would work on their own.

I wonder if they released it as 2 discs for cost purposes, b/c the mismatch b/w Disc 1 and 2 is REALLY glaring.  There's a reason people (at least the ones I've heard from) prefer Disc 2 over Disc 1.  Disc 1 is just way too bloated when taken as a lump sum.

The end result personally speaking is that during the show (Pittsburgh), I started to fall asleep during Act 1 about 2/3 of the way through b/c it just droned on and on and on and on.  A break in Disc 1 is really necessary to revitalize the story.  It's too bad that their decision affected me as it did, b/c while some people are remembering the show they attended as the James Labrie show or Petrucci really soaring, my memory is tainted with thoughts of just wishing the fucking end of the set would come already so I could walk around and wake myself back up.

It's like a good movie that goes 30 minutes too long, thereby tainting the overall impression of the movie (The Dark Knight, I'm looking at you).  You feel like things in Act 1 have reached some kind of organic resolution, but no, there's just more.  And more.  And more, completely diluting everything and undoing any good will the 1st half had built up. 

The music on its own is fine; they just made a really poor decision in how they presented a good chunk of it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 01:04:03 AM by zappafrank2112 »

Offline matthewmatt

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2016, 01:54:27 AM »
That is a very valid criticism, IMHO. It's true the difference in lengths is somewhat strange and dividing the album into 3 acts might have helped. Or at least make the acts the same length and shuffle the songs around a bit, so as to break that "samey" parts. You might argue that's impossible, because the music follows the story, but 1. the story's not as complex so that it couldn't have a flashback or two, 2. don't know why the story of such great conflict and "militia" must be so mellow, by the way. I still got used to the album, though, and enjoy it a lot, but that does not mean it couldn't have been better.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2016, 02:19:20 AM »
You don't have to listen to 80 minutes in one go...

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2016, 02:39:15 AM »
You don't have to listen to 80 minutes in one go...

Indeed, I was taking as well a small break after the end of Three Days, before carrying on with the rest of the disc. It was still a full listening, meaning that the break was minimal, but still I was having it.
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Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2016, 03:40:50 AM »
While valid, I think this has been discussed 'till tiring.

However, your reasons I don't agree at all.
If you seriously fell asleep during a show  you should have probably sold your tickets or get better sleeping habits, for real.
I found Act I to run very fast live.
And I can't take someone who just criticized The Dark Knight seriously.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2016, 04:51:44 AM »
Well, The Dark Knight is not entirely perfect, just like The Astonishing.

But I think that in both cases the very great highs far outweigh the very minor lows.
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Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2016, 04:59:41 AM »
Well, The Dark Knight is not entirely perfect, just like The Astonishing.

But I think that in both cases the very great highs far outweigh the very minor lows.

Out of all the films that long runner than needed out there he has to name The Dark Knight :lol
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Offline The Curious Orange

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2016, 06:06:46 AM »
I agree that the album could have been 3 acts - I certainly think of it as 3 acts. However, it probably shouldn't be 3 discs - I for one would argue that with some judicious editing, one disc would have been enough. It's just not strong enough to support 130 minutes. 80 minutes on 1 disc would have been enough.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2016, 06:31:08 AM »
Couple of things-

I was at the Pittsburgh show, if you can fall asleep with that level of noise around you, I'm impressed.

I don't know if the forum has done an official vote, but a lot of people around here seem to like Disc 1 more than Disc 2.

The only reason I could see to split it into three discs would be to avoid cutting the stuff in Act 1 they had to remove because of space. They could have put the spoken intro from the live shows, extended JP's solo in ANB, etc...

But that being said, I'm fine with 2 Acts, 2 Discs.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2016, 09:13:48 AM »
The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts

There's a natural break right after "Three Days," and I honestly think a slight intermission there would help the album flow better.  80 minutes is way too long for the 1st disc considering how similar so many of the more ballad-y songs feel to one another.

The breakdown would be about 37 minutes, 43 minutes, and 50 minutes.  This is MUCH more manageable than 80 and 50.  The song "6DoIT" works fine as one disc at 42 minutes long, so there's no reason why we couldn't have had 2 discs around that length.  The feel of the songs and the parts of the stories are self contained enough that each act would work on their own.

Yeah, the idea has been discussed before, but not specifically putting the break where you suggested.  Let me first say that I love the album as-is.  Like many others who love it, I still feel it has a few very minor flaws, and there are a few areas where I subjectively would feel it was better if those things were done differently.  But it's all so subjective and the album is so good as a whole that I hate to criticize even a little bit.  But that said, I think your idea is a GREAT one.  Reasons:

The flow really WOULD be improved, IMO.  I enjoy Act I more than Act II.  But that said, it can be fatiguing to listen to the entire thing. 

The break is a natural one in terms of the story itself.  Act I sets up the major conflict.  Act II creates some major tensions as Faythe, Darius, and Ahrys each try to address the conflict in their own ways.  Act III is, as it is now, the resolution.  Perfect.  And it would fit the "classic" 3-act structure very well.

It would allow the few things that had been cut to be put back in (the intro and the bit of JP's guitar soloing at the end of A New Beginning).  It would also allow for something else I feel is missing:  A song about the fighting and revolution itself.  There is a bit of that in A Better Life, and then sprinkled in sparingly in a few other places.  But for the most part, I just don't really feel anything for the rebel movement and the larger conflict when I am listening to the story.  I realize that JP intentionally wanted to present the story as something different where there IS a large-scale conflict going on, but the listeners instead focus on the personal interactions of a few people living through the conflict, and how those personal interactions have much bigger consequences.  JP and I even talked a little bit about that after the show in SF in May, and I think it is a really cool way to present the story.  But, again, I still want to feel something a bit more for the bigger conflict, and I think that can be done without shifting focus away from where JP wanted it if there was just a song about the fighting and the huge cost in lives that this conflict was having.  I think something like that could fit very well somewhere in Act II.  It could go right at the beginning and serve the story very well.  We end Act I with the ominous threat at the end of Three Days, and then start off Act II with the huge toll the fighting is taking on both sides throughout the Empire, and then back to the more interpersonal stuff with Brother Can You Hear Me?  But really, it could go anywhere in Act II and work just fine. 

I wonder if they released it as 2 discs for cost purposes

That probably was a big factor.  From what little we do know, we know that John and Jordan wrote it as a 2-disk set.  We also know that once everything was recorded and ready to go, they discovered that they had cut it a bit too close on disk 1, and it actually went slightly over, so they had to make some last-minute cuts.  I don't think their mindset was 3 disks at the time.  They had planned and budgeted for a 2 disk set.  Re-cutting it and doing it as a 3 disk set at the 11th hour would have been a major change in mindset, and would have entailed all kinds of additional logistics and corresponding costs that I don't think the band would likely have wanted to entertain that late in the game.

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Offline RoeDent

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2016, 10:00:31 AM »
Easy solution. Pause whatever device you're listening to the album on after Three Days*.

I agree that the end of Three Days feels like a good place to take a break. If we're subdividing the album even further, I feel the same with Lord Nafaryus. The "Yes, we shall see" ending, then a definite change of scene to the square in Ravenskill.

*(The song. Not three actual days.)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:08:03 AM by RoeDent »

Offline zappafrank2112

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2016, 10:37:26 AM »
For all the people saying, "Just stop after Three Days," you're missing the point entirely.

Yes, I can do that whenever I'm listening to it at home, but that's not how they intended it to be presented, at home and more importantly, nor in concert.  I couldn't just ask them to stop after Three Days for 1o or 15 minutes.

The whole point of my post was that they presented the album in a less than ideal fashion, even detrimentally depending on your point of view.  So I took it upon myself to experience the album *as they presented it*, and it just doesn't work.  For me, this was even more readily apparent in the live setting.

Now, had I myself come to the learn the album in 3 acts, would I have "endured" the 1st 80 minutes better in concert?  Maybe, but that's a moot point now.  I "trusted" (I don't mean that to sound so melodramatic, hah) them to know what they were doing and present their vision in a way that I as the listener would receive to maximum effect, and that wasn't the end result. 

So yes, I can take it upon myself to ingest it in more personally manageable chunks in a way that seems organic to me, but it doesn't undo the negative reaction I had to their initial presentation of what I consider to be overload, which to me is a shame b/c I think my overall experience of the album - and this includes the concert - is "less than" for it.

Offline zappafrank2112

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2016, 10:45:36 AM »
While valid, I think this has been discussed 'till tiring.

However, your reasons I don't agree at all.
If you seriously fell asleep during a show  you should have probably sold your tickets or get better sleeping habits, for real.
I found Act I to run very fast live.

I experienced it just the same way live as at home: thinking, "OK, there's a good point for an intermission, a cliffhanger of sorts.  Wait, what? Oh yeah, there's more.  But they just reached a natural pausing point..."  That went one for a few songs.  And yes, I was already very familiar with the album when I saw the show.

Quote
And I can't take someone who just criticized The Dark Knight seriously.

Really unnecessary comment and way to invalidate me.

I've found a lot of people who feel the last 30 minutes of TDK are just tacked on after the stuff with Joker wraps up.  All the stuff with Dent and Dawes feels just tacked on, like "OH SHIT! WE FORGOT TO GO BACK TO THIS STUFF!!!  We dedicated time to it and we can't just forget about it.  Crap!!!"

Offline zappafrank2112

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2016, 10:48:23 AM »
Out of all the films that long runner than needed out there he has to name The Dark Knight :lol

Not sure what you're trying to convey.  I chose it simply b/c it's the best analog I could think of my own personal experience, where I do know people who have gushed over it, but my own experience didn't match that b/c I felt like there was a lot of stuff that was just thrown in.  Look at my other reply: as far as TDK goes, my issue with it was the final 30 minutes, post-Joker.  It's not a perfect analog with The Astonishing since in the case of the TDK, the issue is the lump at the end.  But the idea remains the way.  YMMV.

Offline Darkstarshades

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2016, 11:00:51 AM »
Look. It's k, your point is seen.
I just find it pointless to make 3-CD's, there isn't really any indication of Act I ending at The Road to Revolution other than their website and the CD's, which is itself a limit. Act I could end at 3D and Act II before Entr'acte as you said. If CD's had 150 minutes, they'd fit it all in one CD.
As you said yourself, yes, the cost issue was certainly there. And if we were going to talk about divisions, the NOMAC tracks certainly do the trick better, specially live.
The live CD's will probably be interesting, since ACT I Live runs way past 80 mins.
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Offline zappafrank2112

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2016, 12:47:00 PM »
The live CD's will probably be interesting, since ACT I Live runs way past 80 mins.

Oh, are they planning on releasing it live?  I know that seems to be the trend these days, but I hadn't heard anything.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2016, 01:11:36 PM »
I think Bosk confirmed that JP said they wanted to do a DVD of the tour.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2016, 01:15:25 PM »
Quote
Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts

*Should*

Just accept the album as it is. The way it was *intended*.

* The Astonishing SHOULD have been 1 disc*

* The Astonishing SHOULD have been X or Y *


Just listen to it or don't.

Offline Evermind

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2016, 01:41:53 PM »
I actually agree with the OP, I think it would be better if presented in three acts. I think they should've done the break after Three Days, it's such a natural moment to do that.

Just listen to it or don't.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.
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Offline zappafrank2112

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2016, 01:44:49 PM »
I actually agree with the OP, I think it would be better if presented in three acts. I think they should've done the break after Three Days, it's such a natural moment to do that.

Just listen to it or don't.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.

See, this is the kind of thinking that people then become infuriated by.  It's quite amusing actually when you call them on their bluff.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2016, 02:21:16 PM »
Well, look, you've had a few people agree with you, including a pretty detailed post by yours truly.  If you'd rather pick fights with people who disagree with you than discuss the actual issue, then we'll just lock the thread.
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Offline zappafrank2112

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2016, 02:25:45 PM »
Well, look, you've had a few people agree with you, including a pretty detailed post by yours truly.  If you'd rather pick fights with people who disagree with you than discuss the actual issue, then we'll just lock the thread.

I'm not picking fights...

But anyway.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2016, 06:11:02 PM »
I agree with the premise.  I love the record, but a) it's kind of bizarre that Act II is so much better shorter than Act I, and b) The Road to Revolution should have been a little longer, but it feels like it got cut short because they needed to keep Disc 1 under 80 minutes. I could be off base, but that is just how it feels

While I have no problem with the fadeout in A New Beginning, give that a proper ending, and then made The Road to Revolution more of a complete song, and the transition to Act II (or what could have been Act III) would have been better and smoother, IMO.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2016, 06:41:58 PM »
Interesting thread. Not much to add other than I like the idea that there be 3 acts as opposed to 2 as the OP suggested, and Boskaryus' idea of something more of the conflict. If they had done that (or if they decided to retool it for the rest of the tour, which I can't imagine them doing), they could split it so that the first half of act II would be on the first CD and the second half (beginning with Digital Discord) on the second CD; this would mean the music would be split to roughly 63 and 66 minutes, and would leave more room for the stuff that was cut.

Would love to see the guys actually include a few extra live only tracks and extend a few of them for the live release, instead of merely being a (pretty much) exact duplicate of what's already on the CDs. Would be the perfect opportunity for Boskaryus' idea of songs representing more of the conflict to be realized.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2016, 09:40:37 PM »
You mean one long NOMAC track?
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: The Astonishing should have been released as 3 CD's/3 Acts
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2016, 05:05:03 AM »
Wasn't the difference in length inspired by the layout of musicals? I think the layout makes sense, as Act I would consist of introducing characters and themes and building up tension (which doesn't stop until the end of RtR, so cutting after TD wouldn't make that much structural sense other than dividing the album into smaller chunks), while Act II would resolve all of this. The division threw me off at first, but now I like the pacing and can listen to both acts in a row without getting bored. Also, BCYHM works better as a follow-up to TD+THS than as an opening to a new disc.