Scenes From a Memory vs. The Astonishing

[Kotowboy]

I hate this bizarre binary behaviour whereby you can only like one thing and the other thing is SHIT.

This..

Obviously i like Scenes a lot more, but i don't hate The Astonishing.

By far the biggest problem with the Astonishing is, as i've said before, that it would have worked much better as a single album. There should have been an editor with this project, who would have hopefully cut out half of the songs.

It would have been an amazing single album for sure but i'm also really glad that they decided to do a 130 minute double concept album.

I think if you're gonna go big - go really big.

I think a few people thought DT were going stale after DT12 and this needed to happen



I love Scenes From A Memory but I also enjoy The Astonishing very much.

[peepeetipi]

The 'flaw'  with TA for me is, that Act I is Wayyyyyy overlong. There are about three false endings tacked on, just too much. While the performance of the music is flawless, it does lack 'something'  in the emotional spectrum.

I agree with this. I think TA is incredible, mind, and I think that for linking what they had in terms of story it ended up working, but there is a bit of a flow issue with the huge difference in length between the discs. Now, I'm not sure what the best solution to that would have been, because based on what we have alone I can't think of a better place for Act 1 to end and Act 2 to begin than where they do already.

One thing though, and I see this get mentioned a lot. TA is not exactly the most personal album aside from its super subtle "freedom through music and expression" message. But, and this is one of my favorite albums and I won't hear anyone speaking ill of the music itself - SFAM, especially in comparison, doesn't have a great story, let alone emotional appeal outside of TSCO. It's about a guy who finds out that in a past life he was a flapper with woman parts (and DT have never been great with female POVs) who goes "Yeah, the solution to my problem is to sleep with my lover's powerful brother! What can I say, I was weak and young, derp" and we're supposed to sympathize with her purely because she's the main character! I know they don't excuse it, but they don't ever give us a reason to like her either. Or anyone else really. Yeah, I mean, she goes and does a death, but in general people don't deserve that. And then the truth is... it was actually Edward, the guy on the side, who kills out of jealousy (and who gets away with it because he's a senator and... wrote a note pretending to be Julian?) and not Julian like Nicholas had thought, and all because... what a cool twist? That's just off the top of my head, without even really putting deep thought into like people have for all of TA's flaws (most of which I won't argue with either). It may take 2 hours to tell not a lot of story, but at least TA logically gets from start to finish. Again, SFAM is one of my favorite albums and damn near perfect and the better album, but the story is absolutely batshit and only works because of how the music was executed.

[ytsejam58]

That's exactly my point! I may have failed to mention this but I have said it before on other platforms. I feel Scenes from a Memory works because the music was the main focus. They made sure from track 1 to 12 that every song sounded amazing as a whole and on their own. If the story fails to reach the listener, the album still has the music to fall back on.
The Astonishing, for me at least, I have already expressed my distaste for the story, But the story had so much attention and focus on it, that it feels the music has to work around it. The story no longer feels like a companion to the music, it feels like a barrier holding the music back. But that's how I feel.

Thank you guys for the great feedback by the way. I think this is helping me better understand what Other people like about the album. Hopefully in time I can look at The Astonishing in another way.

[red barchetta]

Today, I listened to the full album of SFAM.  There is no doubt to me that it's their best album ever.  The music is incredibly good.  I think that the music has to be very strong because the story is secondary to me.  These guys are first and foremost musicians, writers of music.  And the story is a bonus.

[ytsejam58]

Totally unrelated, cool profile pic! I see Exit... Stage Left, Genesis Three Sides? And Styx. Idk about the other 2

[ChuckSteak]

I don't think it is fair. Scenes wins, obviously. I listened to TA several times and since then I haven't had the interest to listen to it again. Nothing there attracts me. I don't think I will listen to it again.

But Scenes is a masterpiece album. Conceptually, musically, structurally, lyrically.

[MHStrawn]

I largely agree with the OP....and happy to see his thoughts because I thought maybe it's just me?  My biggest complaints:

1.  UNBELIEVABLY horrid lyrics....sophomoric, banal, paint-by-numbers tripe.  This has been true of Petrucci stuff for a while (see Count of Tuscany); the fact he's the primary song-writer now just exposes it moreso. 
2.  Ballads are dull, uninspired stuff.  I happened to buy Savatage's Streets: A Rock Opera around the same time TA came out.  THere's just no comparison of the two, but what most stands out is the ballads on S:ARO is the piano melodies are terrific, ringing in your ears and progressing perfectly.  The piano melodies in TA are dull, uninspired..and when combined with terrible lyrics make for really bad ballads. 
3.  The DRUMS:  Oh my god the drums.  The OP nailed it...Mangini is technically among the most skilled drummer you could find but his playing is mind-numbingly boring. 

S: ARO is still in my 6-disc player on my old car....I haven't listened to TA (except for the handful of songs I rate as 4s on a 5 scale) almost at all.  One of the songs came on a playlist the other day and I had zero interest in going back and listening to the rest of it. 

I give DT credit for trying something ambitious, something different.  They have been stuck in a rut for a while IMO.  However, while the ambition was big, the execution was flawed. 

OP: I think your post is definitely reasonable and worthy of a decent discussion, instead of simply calling you a troll and pushing you out.

However, I largely disagree with your main points.

Yes, the lyrics are not that great, and often state the obvious - but that is just how Dream Theater have always been. - I disagree here.  Go back to ACOS or I&W, really anything from 90's and the lyrics were terrific. 
Yes, the division between Acts 1 and 2 could have been a bit better - but given how monumentally ambitious a project this was, I think they did a very creditable job.
Yes, the story is a bit What Would Rush Do? - but then again, Dream Theater have almost made a career doing that.  So, you're basically saying DT is a highly functioning cover band?  That's not exactly something to celebrate in a band. 
I disagree about the production - I think it's quite good.

The one where I agree the most is Mike Mangini's performance. When I saw TA live, I was simply blown away by him. However, on the record it does sound a bit stiff. Sections where he should be pushing the energy, like in A New Beginning, he plays a very staid, stiff, beat. I wish he'd play more like he did in Annihilator or Extreme rather than how he seems to prefer in DT. But his live performance was marvellous, and if DT release a Blu Ray of it, I will be more than satisfied, because I love The Astonishing, flaws and all.

[commanderbob]

Scenes is absolutely amazing.

The Astonishing is their first album that if it suddenly didn't exist I wouldn't care that much. Although Our New world is incredible.

[red barchetta]

I largely agree with the OP....and happy to see his thoughts because I thought maybe it's just me?  My biggest complaints:

1.  UNBELIEVABLY horrid lyrics....sophomoric, banal, paint-by-numbers tripe.  This has been true of Petrucci stuff for a while (see Count of Tuscany); the fact he's the primary song-writer now just exposes it moreso. 
2.  Ballads are dull, uninspired stuff.  I happened to buy Savatage's Streets: A Rock Opera around the same time TA came out.  THere's just no comparison of the two, but what most stands out is the ballads on S:ARO is the piano melodies are terrific, ringing in your ears and progressing perfectly.  The piano melodies in TA are dull, uninspired..and when combined with terrible lyrics make for really bad ballads. 
3.  The DRUMS:  Oh my god the drums.  The OP nailed it...Mangini is technically among the most skilled drummer you could find but his playing is mind-numbingly boring. 

S: ARO is still in my 6-disc player on my old car....I haven't listened to TA (except for the handful of songs I rate as 4s on a 5 scale) almost at all.  One of the songs came on a playlist the other day and I had zero interest in going back and listening to the rest of it. 

I give DT credit for trying something ambitious, something different.  They have been stuck in a rut for a while IMO.  However, while the ambition was big, the execution was flawed. 

OP: I think your post is definitely reasonable and worthy of a decent discussion, instead of simply calling you a troll and pushing you out.

However, I largely disagree with your main points.

Yes, the lyrics are not that great, and often state the obvious - but that is just how Dream Theater have always been. - I disagree here.  Go back to ACOS or I&W, really anything from 90's and the lyrics were terrific. 
Yes, the division between Acts 1 and 2 could have been a bit better - but given how monumentally ambitious a project this was, I think they did a very creditable job.
Yes, the story is a bit What Would Rush Do? - but then again, Dream Theater have almost made a career doing that.  So, you're basically saying DT is a highly functioning cover band?  That's not exactly something to celebrate in a band. 
I disagree about the production - I think it's quite good.

The one where I agree the most is Mike Mangini's performance. When I saw TA live, I was simply blown away by him. However, on the record it does sound a bit stiff. Sections where he should be pushing the energy, like in A New Beginning, he plays a very staid, stiff, beat. I wish he'd play more like he did in Annihilator or Extreme rather than how he seems to prefer in DT. But his live performance was marvellous, and if DT release a Blu Ray of it, I will be more than satisfied, because I love The Astonishing, flaws and all.

Well, you just pointed out the main flaws of TA, something I have tried to describe myself but without using the appropriate words.

Some people do say that there are many melodies but yes many of them are boring and also repeated a bit too much. It's like watching the Titanic movie and hearing the same song or feeling you hear the same song too much.

There are some good songs in there, for me, just a few, a handfull. I mean, how are we suppose to rate TA? If I listen to the many ballads of TA and for example I compare them with a song like Wither, well there ain't any ballads of TA better than Wither. So I kind of rate them just average for most of them.

The drums:  my biggest complaint is the sound. It really sound like a drum machine, especially the bass drum. And about the feeling, I really mist Portnoy who was the first drummer reminding me some of the best recordings of Rush's Neil Peart. Mangini is a great drummer. On the ADTOE tour, he just delivered the best drum solo I had seen. And I know that skills wise, he's on top.

Musically, the skills level on TA appears to be one of the lowest level heard from all the band studio records.

No epic songs on TA but that's ok. It is not a must but for me it's just that too many songs are average.

And me too, I love Our new world.

SFAM is their best album. Just the guitar solo on Home is in another league comparing that to TA .

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Well, you just pointed out the main flaws of TA, something I have tried to describe myself but without using the appropriate words.

Some people do say that there are many melodies but yes many of them are boring and also repeated a bit too much. It's like watching the Titanic movie and hearing the same song or feeling you hear the same song too much.

There are some good songs in there, for me, just a few, a handfull. I mean, how are we suppose to rate TA? If I listen to the many ballads of TA and for example I compare them with a song like Wither, well there ain't any ballads of TA better than Wither. So I kind of rate them just average for most of them.

The drums:  my biggest complaint is the sound. It really sound like a drum machine, especially the bass drum. And about the feeling, I really mist Portnoy who was the first drummer reminding me some of the best recordings of Rush's Neil Peart. Mangini is a great drummer. On the ADTOE tour, he just delivered the best drum solo I had seen. And I know that skills wise, he's on top.

Musically, the skills level on TA appears to be one of the lowest level heard from all the band studio records.

No epic songs on TA but that's ok. It is not a must but for me it's just that too many songs are average.

And me too, I love Our new world.

SFAM is their best album. Just the guitar solo on Home is in another league comparing that to TA .

'skills level' low? I don't even know what that exactly means, but if you mean what I think you mean you couldn't be farther from the truth IMO. The album's complexity doesn't lie on boring fast chromatic runs in 15/16, but on the music composition itself. You have one song in one key, and it starts modulating to a whole bunch of other keys according to the character that sings or the mood it's trying to convey, so you may end up having 4 or 5 key signatures in one song. That's quite a musical achievement if you ask me (as it was done in a really intelligent and musical way, of course). Wanna hear Dream Theater go wild instrumentally? There are lots of other albums where you can get your fair share of instrumental madness from them, and because of that I'm really glad The Astonishing turned out the way it did.

[Bertielee]

I think that the TA haters have been largely on the loose lately to explain again and again why it's not a good album. Wow!

B.Lee

[red barchetta]

Ah there it is again, THE haters. The flaws of the album are being demonstrated. That does not mean I hate it. In another thread, DT's albums are rated so after one month away of it I have listened again to TA along with all the rest of their work so I could make my own ranking. I'm probably up to 40 listenings of TA.

When I hate something, I don't go towards it.

[ChuckSteak]

I also "hate" The Astonishing, though "hate" is a very strong word for it. It would imply I am very emotionally attached to it. I don't care for it, I don't listen to it. I think it is a waste of time to explain why I don't like it or what are the album flaws and it only causes controversies and stupid fights, so leave the people who like it alone. No matter what I say, in the end both parties will keep the same opinion, making the discussion futile. 

[Bertielee]

Ah there it is again, THE haters. The flaws of the album are being demonstrated. That does not mean I hate it. In another thread, DT's albums are rated so after one month away of it I have listened again to TA along with all the rest of their work so I could make my own ranking. I'm probably up to 40 listenings of TA.

When I hate something, I don't go towards it.

I'm sorry you took it for you, red barchetta, but my remark was not only for this thread.

Now back to topic, of course SFAM is much more solid than TA, but I like both. It's just that I do not rank SFAM as high as most people. TA suffers mostly because of Disc 2 IMO where the tracks kinda blur together and are not as melodic as on disc 1.

B.Lee

[ChuckSteak]

I enjoy reading the negative RateYourMusic reviews for The Astonishing. They are hilarious.

[TAC]

Scenes is a true powerhouse. I still rate it above The Astonishing.

There have been two things that I feel have been extremely lacing in the last half dozen albums. Piano, and not using James' range. Well TA does it in spades. I love TA, but it's quite different, so no surprise some may not take to it. The criticisms are legit, but there's nothing there that impedes my enjoyment.


That said, Streets should never be in the same sentence as TA. That cannot even be taken seriously. Talk about boredom..

[King Postwhore]

Streets rocks Tim!

Why do we continue to put albums up against a bands top 3 album?

[TAC]

 

Oh no..not you too??

[red barchetta]

Ah there it is again, THE haters. The flaws of the album are being demonstrated. That does not mean I hate it. In another thread, DT's albums are rated so after one month away of it I have listened again to TA along with all the rest of their work so I could make my own ranking. I'm probably up to 40 listenings of TA.

When I hate something, I don't go towards it.

I'm sorry you took it for you, red barchetta, but my remark was not only for this thread.

Now back to topic, of course SFAM is much more solid than TA, but I like both. It's just that I do not rank SFAM as high as most people. TA suffers mostly because of Disc 2 IMO where the tracks kinda blur together and are not as melodic as on disc 1.

B.Lee

Ah ok but I was not thinking about me because I don't hate TA. And never said so. But I am an open book. Latin blood speaks out.

[Bertielee]

Ah there it is again, THE haters. The flaws of the album are being demonstrated. That does not mean I hate it. In another thread, DT's albums are rated so after one month away of it I have listened again to TA along with all the rest of their work so I could make my own ranking. I'm probably up to 40 listenings of TA.

When I hate something, I don't go towards it.

I'm sorry you took it for you, red barchetta, but my remark was not only for this thread.

Now back to topic, of course SFAM is much more solid than TA, but I like both. It's just that I do not rank SFAM as high as most people. TA suffers mostly because of Disc 2 IMO where the tracks kinda blur together and are not as melodic as on disc 1.

B.Lee

Ah ok but I was not thinking about me because I don't hate TA. And never said so. But I am an open book. Latin blood speaks out.

Latin blood there too. Friends?

B.Lee

[red barchetta]

No problem.

[Bertielee]

No problem.

[ytsejam58]

I posted the original thread because I was so tired of critics treating this album with kid gloves just because it's dream theater. I wanted to speak out and give a careful analytical critic because this is the first album that has made me angry. so yeah. You can say I'm a hater. Because I think Dream Theater are capable of producing an album way better than this mess, and they have! If this was a band I couldn't give to flies about, I woudnt care that this was a bad album. But this is Dream Theater.
You cant just discount the oppinions of haters though saying "haters gonna hate" that term should only be applied to those who blindly hate. I am not blind. I know exactly the reasons why this album erks me so and many others.
It is smart to have motifs that run through albums. Ive seen it done before. The Undertale sountrack is a perfect example. And the epics from Morse/Portnoy projects do this a lot too. This album does have good ideas going for it. But the execution was so horrible. I might have said this before but this is the Phantom Menace for Dream Theater.

[KevShmev]

It makes you angry? Um, okay.

And what do you mean treating it with kid gloves?  Do you think the critics are holding back?  Do you hate it so much that you actually want critics to go off on it like it robbed your grandmother? 

Seems kind of weird to me.

[Bertielee]

I posted the original thread because I was so tired of critics treating this album with kid gloves just because it's dream theater. I wanted to speak out and give a careful analytical critic because this is the first album that has made me angry. so yeah. You can say I'm a hater. Because I think Dream Theater are capable of producing an album way better than this mess, and they have! If this was a band I couldn't give to flies about, I woudnt care that this was a bad album. But this is Dream Theater.
You cant just discount the oppinions of haters though saying "haters gonna hate" that term should only be applied to those who blindly hate. I am not blind. I know exactly the reasons why this album erks me so and many others.
It is smart to have motifs that run through albums. Ive seen it done before. The Undertale sountrack is a perfect example. And the epics from Morse/Portnoy projects do this a lot too. This album does have good ideas going for it. But the execution was so horrible. I might have said this before but this is the Phantom Menace for Dream Theater.

I think we understood you HATE (I quote : "I can go on but these are the main reasons why I HATE the Astonishing and why I think it not only fails in comparison to Dream Theater's previous works but as an album on it's own...") the album in your first post. No need to try and convince the people who don't think the same as you or say they treat it with kid gloves.

B.Lee

[Enigmachine]

I posted the original thread because I was so tired of critics treating this album with kid gloves just because it's dream theater.

This isn't really happening. Pretty sure that the people who like it (i.e. me) like it for more reasons than it's just Dream Theater. If you're referring to the Metacritic page, not only are both the Critic and Audience score quite high, but the opinions are generally backed up quite well.

[mikeyd23]

What a weird thread this has become.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm one of the ones that vastly enjoys this album. Enough to rank it as my 2ND favorite DT album. I just love the music and story flow, but then I love concept albums. Even though the lyrics are simple, it doesn't bother me, it's pretty much normal conversation between the characters, and of course the narrator. That's my problem is people saying these lyrics suck, but how so? You don't see people talking elegantly all the time.

Their are a couple songs where it can be personal. I can put myself into that character and find things that relate to me, or that touch me enough I can feel their emotions.

[Bertielee]

What a weird thread this has become.

Tbh, it was to be so from the very beginning.

B.Lee

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Scenes

[hefdaddy42]

For sure, SFAM is the better album.  But some of the negative comments about TA are laughable.

[toro]

I'm giving my two cents about this album.

First of all, I actually liked the album. It's not the best but I liked it better than DT12 or SC.

This album is the biggest vanity project they have ever done. The band did not make this album to gain new fans, it shows on the tour and the singles(Of course they gained new fans but that was not the main goal). They made this album to fulfill one goal and one goal only. Having a movie-like album under their wings. This was something that had been brewing since ADTOE.
Petrucci always said he wanted cinematic intros and well... they had one for that tour.
Then they made their own cinematic score for their intro with DT12 and Rudess got an even bigger role in that album.
Now we have a cinematic rock opera. It's all about Petrucci and Rudess. That's it. It's done.  No one has to "worry" about another album like this because I think Petrucci got it out of his system.

Now the album itself. Great music, world building, chessy concept, and cringeworthy lyrics in some parts, but... I mean it's a rock opera, basically every musical is cheesy as fuck. Yes, some of the lyrics are really bad and the first disc is way to long. But the end result is still pretty good.

Can they be compared? Yes, they are concept albums.
Is SFOAM better? Absolutely. But it's not a cinematic album, as in, it doesn't sound like and actual score for a movie. TA does. And that's what they wanted.

 

[Dublagent66]

Scenes

Yeah, nuff said.   

[As I Am]

SFAM = CLASSIC!

TA = Not bad.

SFAM in a TKO!!!!!!!!!

[ytsejam58]

It happened. Even my favorite song from this album was ruined. A Life Left Behind. You know how when you hear something, you can't unhear it? on my 40th playthrough of this song I finally noticed the echo on LeBrie's voice that runs through the entire song. It's really annoying and now I can't unhear it. There is no redemption for this album. The only good song was The Gift of Music and that was the single. Great "The Astonishing" you have reached "Buy the Singles" status.  -.-

New beginning is still great but I have an issue with the ending where Petrucci is just riffing away and Mangini does nothing to build up the riff, oh and the horrible lyrics "You knew how it felt to feel invisible. Music calmed your soul just like a drug. re-mail the bug? The walking shadow and path that divides are amazing tracks but really only work in the context of the "story"