Scenes From a Memory vs. The Astonishing

[Ben_Jamin]

The lyric is "remember bug"

[IdoSC]

Y'know, this forum generally appears like a place where people can like (or dislike) different things and it doesn't necessarily have to get offensive, and people tend to let each other be when a disagreement unfolds. I mean, it's basically not DT's Facebook page where people keep hammering on how much they hated TA basically until they manage to convince the entire world it sucks.

This topic started out pretty okay, even though I disagree with some of your points. First off, I'm sorry, but whenever anyone says about a new member that his playing "has no soul", I always feel like it's a catchphrase to replace "I don't like his playing compared to the previous member but I can't explain why". And that's fine you know, but please either be honest about your criticism or actually tell us the reasons why you think he "has no soul" (Is it mechanical sounding instruments? Lack of cool improvisations to the main riff? Something else?)

Additionally, look, personally I think criticism on something you don't like is perfectly acceptable, but why do you need to mask it like a comparison between 2 albums? It almost feels like clickbait; I thought I'm coming into this thread to read a comparison between these 2 albums because they're both concept albums, then from the very first paragraph of your post it seems like you're comparing these albums because SFAM is the "ideal" album in your eyes and you use it as a battering tool to show how TA pales in comparison. This thread would've been a lot better if you just explained what you don't like about TA, without hiding it or sugarcoating it in a comparison to SFAM. Because if you tried to compare these two as concept album, none of your parameters had to do with them being concept albums; They're all perfectly inclusive for any type of album out there.

Then we get to the later comments in this thread,

It happened. Even my favorite song from this album was ruined. A Life Left Behind. You know how when you hear something, you can't unhear it? on my 40th playthrough of this song I finally noticed the echo on LeBrie's voice that runs through the entire song. It's really annoying and now I can't unhear it. There is no redemption for this album. The only good song was The Gift of Music and that was the single. Great "The Astonishing" you have reached "Buy the Singles" status.  -.-

Look, again, I'm sorry you feel that way and I hope in 2 years they'll release an album you like better. But it really seems like you're pushing it or exaggerating in an attempt to convince others to hate this album too. This is not a "buy the singles" album, it may be an album with 33-34 or so songs that you didn't happen to like. It makes even less sense when in the next part of your comment you mentioned 2 other songs you still like. And honestly if some echo that took you 40 listens to notice is "ruining a song" for you, please be honest with yourself and reconsider if you're not just trying to sound extra edgy to convince others that you're right about the album. Because some people will still like it whether you do or not, and it's nothing personal. You shouldn't ruin the experience for yourself just to make a point, which is what it seems like right now.

[ytsejam58]

Thank you for putting me in my place. Sometimes I feel like I can get carried away about things I feel passionate about. Weather its passionately good or passionately bad. I hope in years to come that I will learn to appreciate this album like I do with Falling into Infinity.
I didnt intend for this to be click baity. I really thought that comparing in depth this album to "The best progressive rock album" in front of Close to the Edge and 2112 (according to rolling stone magazine) would help others see the frustration I felt when trying to love this album. I tried. I listened and listened. I wanted to love this album. People say that it gets better the more you listen to it. Every time I come back to it I hear new things that actually make the experience worse.
In regards to Mangini, I feel Mangini is a really good technical drummer, he is good for clinics and teaching experienced and novice drummers how to be amazingly fast and skilled like him. When I saw them live I was Amazed by a lot of the things he does with his drums. BUT! I feel in a band like Dream Theater which Originally was focused around virtuosity, Mangini is not virtuous, really. Hes technical, mechanical (this is where I get the description soulless from) It works for what Dream Theater has become, a Paino/Guitar based band. Before the drums/guitars/bass and piano were written at the same time. And I dont know. Im not there. But it feels like petrucci and rudess just hash it out together and mangini comes in later to drum on top of their compositions. With Portnoy the drums were written With the music but with Mangini the drums are (Im assuming) written After the music, thus making it feel very disconnected to what is actually going on.
I also heard this on Turn of Events and Dream Theater, but I still enjoyed those albums despite the drums being so disconnected. But with my opinnion on The Astonishing being as low as it is, The disconnect just made it even more prevelant.

I dont mean to offend anyone or change their oppinion of the album. I realize now how strong I came across on later comments. (I wasnt in the best place at the time). But now, with a critical mind on, I still hold my original criticisms of this album. Theres just so many things holding this album back that even the few moments I did enjoy get hindered by either the poor production or the disconnect in instruments. It could have been sooo much better.

[bosk1]

^For what it's worth, I find that to be a fair and balanced criticism.

[Bertielee]

I dont mean to offend anyone or change their oppinion of the album. I realize now how strong I came across on later comments. (I wasnt in the best place at the time). But now, with a critical mind on, I still hold my original criticisms of this album. Theres just so many things holding this album back that even the few moments I did enjoy get hindered by either the poor production or the disconnect in instruments. It could have been sooo much better.

We can agree on that : it could have been so much better. Tbh, I think that disc 1 and 2, save for the lyrics, could have belonged to two different abums, with disc 1 being far superior to disc 2. The big problem I have with disc 2 is that the tracks tend to blend together, with no real identity on their own. I could almost entirely do without it, save for 2 or 3 tracks. It definitely lacks the variety of disc 1. Now disc 1 is awesome, imo of course. At the end of the day, I've been feeling as such with DT for a long time. Like I'm kinda torn between 2 sentiments : my love for a band I have followed for 23 years now, and the acknowledgement that there is something I don't like any longer. Maybe it's me, maybe it's them, but it's there anyway.

B.Lee

[pcs90]

I prefer The Astonishing hands down.
Both stories certainly have their flaws, but I prefer TA's. The music on TA is much more interesting for me and it has much more emotion. True, Mangini's drums still sound processed, but other than that the mix is pretty good IMO. My only problem with it is that act 2 feels short (because it is, compared to act 1.) If they had extended it a little, the ending wouldn't feel as rushed and they could have elaborated on some of the more vague parts in that act.
The ANB beat is fine. JP is the focus. Could MM have added a few light fills here and there? Maybe. But super busy drums would have ruined that section.

[ytsejam58]

I just watched a video on The differences between a good and a bad drummer, and he used Ringo star as an example of a great drummer. The music was simplistic amd easy to listen to, and sure Ringo could have done a straight on 1-2-3-4 beat for every song (Cough cough acdc cough) But his style does have Subtle characteristics and variations that make it stand out. Mangini doesnt have to go all out crazy like Portnoy is apt to do (Im a drummer so I love stuff like that) but even simple variations on a simple beat makes it sound that much more interesting. Move the snare hit a little, add a couple of ghost notes, change the accent one time. Small stuff. Move from the high hat to the ride.

[bosk1]

You don't think Mangini uses a lot of variety in his playing on TA?  Okay, now I'm really confused. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Well, it isn't like he uses whahibrido pickingant, or anything.

[ytsejam58]

No no, we were referring to the ending of A New Beginning specifically.

[bosk1]

No no, we were referring to the ending of A New Beginning specifically.

Oh, I see.  I agree with the poster before you who said it would have ruined the section if it was too busy.  I like that he kept it very simple and straightforward so the focus could be completely on the guitar in that section.

.

Well, it isn't like he uses whahibrido pickingant, or anything.

No, he totally did.  You just aren't picking up on it because it is mostly inverted whahibrido pickingant

[hefdaddy42]

inverted whahibrido pickingant

mind = blown

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

No, he totally did.  You just aren't picking up on it because it is mostly inverted whahibrido pickingant

<from back of room>COUGHCOUGHBULLSHITCOUGH

[Bertielee]

No, he totally did.  You just aren't picking up on it because it is mostly inverted whahibrido pickingant

<from back of room>COUGHCOUGHbullshitCOUGH

Corrected, or it will be heard nonetheless.

B.Lee

[TAC]

No no, we were referring to the ending of A New Beginning specifically.

Oh, I see.  I agree with the poster before you who said it would have ruined the section if it was too busy.  I like that he kept it very simple and straightforward so the focus could be completely on the guitar in that section.

I agree.

[Mosh]

Yep. I remember before The Astonishing there was a discussion about how cool that simple 12/8 drum beat in Illumination Theory was. I said I hoped there was more stuff in that vein on the next album and A New Beginning is definitely one of those moments where they delivered on that. Highlight of the album.

[devieira73]

No no, we were referring to the ending of A New Beginning specifically.

Oh, I see.  I agree with the poster before you who said it would have ruined the section if it was too busy.  I like that he kept it very simple and straightforward so the focus could be completely on the guitar in that section.

I agree.

I think the MM intention was also to highlight Myung bass lines, which are incredible too!

[devieira73]

Anyway, if you were curious about what drums parts Portnoy would do for the final solo section, I guess it would be something like this: https://youtu.be/vqr6O7shCrw

[Bertielee]

Anyway, if you were curious about what drums parts Portnoy would do for the final solo section, I guess it would be something like this: https://youtu.be/vqr6O7shCrw

I've already seen the guy. He's really good, but I think that his jam doesn't work. What worked perfectly fine with MP doing that kinda thing at the end of Finally Free is that this part was a sort of solo spot for the drums. There, the guy does it over a guitar solo and the solo is lost. Finally, what seems to work better is what MM did after all.

B.Lee

[devieira73]

Totally agreed
Just to add,  I think the approach above it's more similar what MP did at the end of Best of Times, and on that song it was really good.

[Bertielee]

Totally agreed
Just to add,  I think the approach above it's more similar what MP did at the end of Best of Times, and on that song it was really good.

It's been such a long time since I listened to TBoT that I don't remember a thing about the track except the chorus (really bad) and the guitar solo (fantastic). Might check it out some time in the future.

B.Lee

[ytsejam58]

There's gotta be a fine way of blending the all out crazy riffing the guy in the youtube link and MP does and the simple straight beat MM recorded for the album. I'm not asking for all out crazy, I'm asking for variation. The entire time MM is doing this
---- ---- ---- ----
  o      o     o     o 
o     oo   o     oo     

And that's it. It's boring to listen to and it's boring to cover which is why a guy covering the song like the guy in the link would do it exactly like he does. That sounds pretty much how I like to play it too.

Now that I think about it, Scenes from a Memory, Through her Eyes has this same kind of straight beat... but that is a very small section from the rest of the amazingly constructed album.

[Enigmachine]

Now that I think about it, Scenes from a Memory, Through her Eyes has this same kind of straight beat... but that is a very small section from the rest of the amazingly constructed album.

But the section in ANB is proportionally way less of TA than THE is of SfaM.

[Ben_Jamin]

Now that I think about it, Scenes from a Memory, Through her Eyes has this same kind of straight beat... but that is a very small section from the rest of the amazingly constructed album.

But the section in ANB is proportionally way less of TA than THE is of SfaM.

And Through Her Eyes is a drum machine. Also played using a backing track of the drum machine, which is shown on Live Scenes cause MP sings backup on JPs Mic.

[AboutToCrash]

I personally love the astonishing for the most part and can't understand some of the soulless comments, the song "Astonishing" is one of the most emotional endings I've heard to anything ever... Though i do agree that a MAJOR problem was that  there were too many ballads, and with the large amounts of reoccurring themes all the ballads started sounding exactly the same which didn't help... For a band of Virtuosos known for their technical ability it was a bit of a waste not to utilise that fully here but instead write tonnes of 4:4 passages. I find it very difficult to listen to fully anymore because of this, but if you  were to cut virtually all the ballads out and made it say a 60-70 minute disc it would surely have been their best album since octavarium

[red barchetta]

I personally love the astonishing for the most part and can't understand some of the soulless comments, the song "Astonishing" is one of the most emotional endings I've heard to anything ever... Though i do agree that a MAJOR problem was that  there were too many ballads, and with the large amounts of reoccurring themes all the ballads started sounding exactly the same which didn't help... For a band of Virtuosos known for their technical ability it was a bit of a waste not to utilise that fully here but instead write tonnes of 4:4 passages. I find it very difficult to listen to fully anymore because of this, but if you  were to cut virtually all the ballads out and made it say a 60-70 minute disc it would surely have been their best album since octavarium

Ya, I said it before. Way too much ballads in my opinion and some do sounds the same.  It has been obvious to me that the level of musical skills deployed on TA is one of the lowest compared to much of what they have done. I did not like TA but you love it. You pointed out about the same flaws I noticed for my taste.

[Enigmachine]

For me, the high amount of ballads isn't a problem due to how well paced the album is. For instance, 'The Answer' comes in as a refreshing cool down after about 10 mins of high energy music, 'When Your Time Has Come' is a resolution of the tension of 'A Savior in the Square' as well as 'Begin Again' and 'Losing Faythe' bookending arguably the most intense 12 mins of the album. You never just get 3 ballads in a row.

[AboutToCrash]

I think the fact that at least 20 songs on the album start with a piano melody or acoustic melody makes it come across as even more ballad-y than it actually is, though there a still a crazy amount of ballads for a progressive metal band

[bosk1]

I think the fact that at least 20 songs on the album start with a piano melody or acoustic melody makes it come across as even more ballad-y than it actually is...

Yes.  Absolutely that.

[Dublagent66]

I think the fact that at least 20 songs on the album start with a piano melody or acoustic melody makes it come across as even more ballad-y than it actually is, though there a still a crazy amount of ballads for a progressive metal band

I've said this before many times and yet some people still couldn't understand it.  Some said they were ballads, some said they weren't.  Bottom line is, whether they are ballads or not makes no difference.  The album is too mellow to be progressive metal.

[bosk1]

People understand it just fine.  It's just that most people disagree with you.

[Enigmachine]

About half of Ayreon's albums are softer than TA, but people are fine with calling those albums Prog Metal (apart from 'Dream Sequencer').

[Dublagent66]

People understand it just fine.  It's just that most people disagree with you.

Sorry Bosk, not most.  Some.

[Prog Snob]

People understand it just fine.  It's just that most people disagree with you.

[fischermasamune]

I think Disc 1 is very balanced in the ballad aspect. Not the DT average, but something I can really appreciate, and flows well. Disc 2, though, has a sequence of softer songs from My Last Farewell to Hymn Of A Thousand Voices.