Some backwards thinking to the BC&SL era

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

This seems like an interesting topic to me and I'd like to know what you guys think.

I've been a member of this forum since 2006 (or 2005? lol) and I've lived most of the stages of my DT fandom in here. Also ,I've seen how a lot of the opinions of the band fluctuate with each album cycle. For example; I know Score is widely considered as THE live release by DT, but I recall that even Portnoy had some bashing back then because of the sound of his drum kit (sounds familiar? lol) and a lot of criticism on how with every passing album the music began morphing into some sort of The Mike Portnoy show, and funnily enough I think MP was criticised worse back then than he is today.

Also, I remember that the opinions in the SC & Black Clouds days shared something in particular: They were incredibly well received during the first days of release (or leaking days prior to release) with only a decrease in popularity a short time afterwards. I remember reading A LOT about how a lot of people thought that with Black Clouds DT were just producing music for the sake of producing, and that a huge change of pace was needed in order for the band to stay alive. Well, what a dramatic turn of events it was indeed. I even got on that train once, thinking that if DT continued its pace of releasing a ballsy/prog/melodic/balls/safe/DreamTheater-ish album every two years it would eventually be the end of the band as we knew it. They would've continued releasing nice music but nothing world changing like Scenes, you know? All this blabber takes me to the following questions:

1) If Portnoy hadn't left the band, what do you think that would've happened with DT during the following years, with the supposition he didn't want a break and they continued releasing albums every two years? Were you one of those peeps who thought that DT was slowly turning into a MP-bonanza and, do you think that if he had stayed that change would've continued to unfold?
2) Do you see any mirroring on what was said on these forums of the band back then with what is being said these days? Because I do. I mean, The Astonishing was so surprising because probably no soul on earth expected an album like that (and I still put it as one of my favorite 4 Dream Theater albums, easy), but know that it's been a while we can have a more objective discussion of what it means in DT's present and how it projects their future.

[cramx3]

1) If Portnoy hadn't left the band, what do you think that would've happened with DT during the following years?

Nothing.  He wanted years of time off so nothing would have happened in the timespan of this question.  Although to get to your point, I do think if they did take a few years off, then they probably would have come back with something other than the MP-bonanza.

Were you one of those peeps who thought that DT was slowly turning into a MP-bonanza and, do you think that if he had stayed that change would've continued to unfold?

I think the band were starting to show a little less of an "edge" but I don't think they would have stayed the same pace forever.  Maybe have done another album that would be considered "less inspired" but I doubt a band like DT would just forever be like that though.  Also, a break as mentioned above could totally change everything.  Maybe even make the fan base appreciate the MP-bonanza a bit more.

2) Do you see any mirroring on what was said on these forums of the band back then with what is being said these days?

Yes.  People will always complain and since it's music and the same band we are talking about, the complaints are almost always the same it seems.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Nice ideas cramx6, but I just edited my original post to rephrase the question about MP not leaving the band. I want to know what people think that would've happened if MP stayed in the band and kept releasing albums at their traditional 2-year cycle.

[MirrorMask]

Nice ideas cramx6, but I just edited my original post to rephrase the question about MP not leaving the band. I want to know what people think that would've happened if MP stayed in the band and kept releasing albums at their traditional 2-year cycle.

Hard to say. Probably in an album or two we would have had a concept album anyway - actually wasn't a possible idea to have DT11 a concept album, and do an Evening With tour with the album played in the first set and the AA Suite played in the second?

The concept that they were already thinking to do would have had his own style of course, the next "normal" album after Black Clouds would have been most likely a natural evolution from that and SC. Or maybe Portnoy himself would have been the one pushing for a change after so many "metal" albums and going for once in a more mellow direction.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The concept that they were already thinking to do would have had his own style of course, the next "normal" album after Black Clouds would have been most likely a natural evolution from that and SC. Or maybe Portnoy himself would have been the one pushing for a change after so many "metal" albums and going for once in a more mellow direction.

I get what you say, but that Portnoy pushing a more mellow sound is the same animal but with a different name; MP calling the shots. That's something that some fans wouldn't have appreciated, I think (not the mellow sound part, but the Portnoy calling the shots once again). One of the things that I've observed that are incredibly well received of the new DT is that it feels like a band, more like a one-man project. Say what you want about Mangini, but he strikes me more as a team player in every conceivable way.

[bosk1]

1) If Portnoy hadn't left the band, what do you think that would've happened with DT during the following years, with the supposition he didn't want a break and they continued releasing albums every two years? Were you one of those peeps who thought that DT was slowly turning into a MP-bonanza and, do you think that if he had stayed that change would've continued to unfold?

Really hard to say how things would have gone.  But I do not think at all that "DT was slowly turning into a MP-bonanza."  Not even a little bit.  JP and Jordan have written the bulk of the music for a LONG time now, and that was still true when MP was in the band.  It seems to us like MP had more control over the band's writing and creative direction because he was always the primary public face of the band to the fans, and his visibility felt like it was increasing over the last three MP-era albums.  That doesn't mean that he had control.  He didn't.  So, from that perspective, I don't see much changing.  That said, what we do NOT know is, on a practical level, how much input he had on some of the creative decisions and how much that may have indirectly influenced the band.  So that's why I say that it is really hard to know.

2) Do you see any mirroring on what was said on these forums of the band back then with what is being said these days? Because I do. I mean, The Astonishing was so surprising because probably no soul on earth expected an album like that (and I still put it as one of my favorite 4 Dream Theater albums, easy), but know that it's been a while we can have a more objective discussion of what it means in DT's present and how it projects their future.

I'm not sure I completely understand what you are asking.  But if I understand it correctly, yeah, I mean, we tend to go through the same cycles in terms of discussion here.  That doesn't seem to change, even if the specifics of the conversations are different.  But that's okay.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I hope to clear things up with the following:

I've seen a lot of comments these days (not only on this forum, but on other places as well) that DT needs a huge change in order to continue producing quality music. I know The Astonishing IS a huge change, but lots of people didn't like it that much. With that in mind, do you think that there are any similarities of the point in which DT was back in 2009 to the point they are now? A point of personal stability in which everything seems to be going smooth in every aspect of the word.

Back in 2009, we had the impression everything was going amazingly well in DT land (with the notable exception of Portnoy, of course), and now in 2016 I feel we're getting the same vibe. Now, what do Images and Words, Scenes from a Memory and A Dramatic have all in common? They all were albums with a huge purpose. They are widely considered as DT's best records (maybe ADTOE not that much but it still ranks higher for most than DT and TA) and they didn't come from a 'everything is smooth in DT land' context.

[cramx3]

I think I disagree.  At least IMO, I don't think the band needs to do anything but keep being DT.  TA may not be for everyone, but it was a huge change and a daring album.  It's not like they are going to continue doing albums like TA.

Sometimes I just think it's a very vocal minority on the internet.

[bosk1]

I've seen a lot of comments these days (not only on this forum, but on other places as well) that DT needs a huge change in order to continue producing quality music. I know The Astonishing IS a huge change, but lots of people didn't like it that much. With that in mind, do you think that there are any similarities of the point in which DT was back in 2009 to the point they are now? A point of personal stability in which everything seems to be going smooth in every aspect of the word.

Oh, I see.  In that sense, no, I don't think it is the same.  And one huge difference is this:  People cooled off on Black Clouds very quickly.  Even among those who still liked it, I think many still recognized that it was one of DT's weakest offerings as an album.  I don't see that response to The Astonishing.  There seems to be more of a consensus, even among those who didn't like it, that it was an ambitious project that showed that the band is still incredibly creative and willing to take substantial risks for their vision.  That was NOT the vibe about the Black Clouds era.  Remember everyone saying (and STILL saying) things along the lines of it being DT by numbers, or the band just going through the motions, and stuff like that?  Even though they were trying new (at the time) things on that album, it seemed to me like fans were saying they not only didn't like it, but it felt more like a band experimenting for experimentation's sake because "that's what prog bands do" as opposed to the band being truly creative.  That may not sound like a huge difference, but I think it is huge.

Back in 2009, we had the impression everything was going amazingly well in DT land (with the notable exception of Portnoy, of course), and now in 2016 I feel we're getting the same vibe. Now, what do Images and Words, Scenes from a Memory and A Dramatic have all in common? They all were albums with a huge purpose. They are widely considered as DT's best records (maybe ADTOE not that much but it still ranks higher for most than DT and TA) and they didn't come from a 'everything is smooth in DT land' context.

Okay, that makes sense.  BUT, the three albums you point to were AFTER a significant event, with the band putting that significant event behind them and creating something cool as a result of having gone through it.  If we try to say there might be a pattern, The Astonishing shouldn't be an indicator of a traumatic experience lying ahead, but rather one that is now in the rearview mirror.

[fischermasamune]

I group TA with I&W and SFAM as their 3 best albums. I do think that although there were no splits or doubts in the group [that we know of], they found an inner force to be specially ambitious in their project (especially Petrucci) and the result shows.

[Kotowboy]

I was beginning to think that Portnoy was taking over Dream Theater like Daron Malakian was taking over System Of A Down. .

[Darkstarshades]

As someone who wasn't a fan during BC&SL, but as someone who is a fan of a band who went through a similiar situation (launching predictable albums in a row, before a bandmember left and everything changed), I can say that I would have felt like it's just "Oh, it's DT, another album", and so on, and not the same level of hype I had with TA.

If Portnoy hadn't left DT, the band would have probably written an album with no epic, one of the reasons for splitting ITPOE in two parts was because in Octavarium they already had a closing 20+ epic, so naturally they wouldn't want to write another epic. And remember, not only did they do this twice, but THREE times, as TCOT is basically another epic (but since 4 songs in that album are 10+, it doesn't feel that epic).

They always tried new things, concept album, double album (albeit not intentionally), metal album, thematic album, and SC was the first one where they arrived clear minded. BC&SL I see it as a return to themes, as I feel it as a very homogeneous record, with the nonfictional personal topics and overall style.

I really can't think what they would have tried next, probably a more power symphonic metal, I have always wondered how would it be if DT went Rhapsody or Kamelot/Angra for a brief moment, with their own touch of course.

[Mosh]

Portnoy might've pushed a heavier sound at times but as Bosk said, JP and Jordan are still the primary writers. They still came up with the music that appeared on BC&SL. I have a hard time believing that MP bullied them into making that music, since the fact that he's no longer in the band shows that they are capable of standing up for themselves.

Besides being less heavy (sometimes), I don't think the two albums after Portnoy left are all that different. ADTOE was probably a conscious effort to dial it back a bit, but a lot of the stuff on DT12 could've easily been a followup to BC&SL. Still has that dark heavy sound, but the songs are a bit more concise. It's a logical successor to me, while ADTOE was more of a necessary detour for the band to establish a new lineup. 
The Bigger Picture in particular, I can easily hear MP doing those call and response vocals. The Astonishing is a bit different, but then again it's different than anything DT has ever done. I do think it would've taken a different direction (for better or worse) with Portnoy.

I could've seen them doing a concept album after BC&SL had Portnoy stayed. I vaguely remember an interview where they said the idea was floated during that time. It makes sense, since SC and BC&SL seemed like they were consciously trying to avoid anything too conceptual after a string of albums with definite themes. A band like DT can get that itch again pretty quickly I'm sure.

It's really hard to say how The Astonishing will influence the way DT makes albums in the future. Every album since Systematic Chaos has been building on the last one and that seems to have culminated in The Astonishing. So where do they go next? They could do a string of mid length songs with a 20 minute epic, or something like Six Degrees where every song is extended and lives in its own world, or something else entirely. I do think it's necessary for them to move forward and do something more experimental and different next. The way their sound totally changed after SFAM. I don't expect as dramatic of a change for a 30 year old band, but you never know. Maybe they could finally do that world music album.

Back in 2009, we had the impression everything was going amazingly well in DT land (with the notable exception of Portnoy, of course), and now in 2016 I feel we're getting the same vibe. Now, what do Images and Words, Scenes from a Memory and A Dramatic have all in common? They all were albums with a huge purpose. They are widely considered as DT's best records (maybe ADTOE not that much but it still ranks higher for most than DT and TA) and they didn't come from a 'everything is smooth in DT land' context.

I think historically DT has been a band that operates best under pressure or stress. I disagree with ADTOE being anywhere near their best albums, but I agree it had a huge purpose and that's probably why people can get into it more than DT12 (which is a far superior album IMO). The Astonishing is an example of a band with nothing really left to prove, making music for the sake of it. I enjoy The Astonishing, but I think that's why it lacks the energy and power of SFAM for many. Same with BC&SL and Systematic Chaos. The band just celebrated their 20th anniversary at the time and had a stable lineup with a loyal fanbase. They're two very safe albums that don't really do anything new for the band. That's not to say they're bad, though I'm not a fan of SC myself, but I think that's where these albums fall flat for a lot of people.

[Kotowboy]

I think A Dramatic Turn of Events is way better than the first two albums AND DT12.


For me it's

Systematic Chaos < Black Clouds < A Dramatic Turn Of Events > DT12 < The Astonishing

[KevShmev]

. For example; I know Score is widely considered as THE live release by DT, but I recall that even Portnoy had some bashing back then because of the sound of his drum kit (sounds familiar? lol) and a lot of criticism on how with every passing album the music began morphing into some sort of The Mike Portnoy show, and funnily enough I think MP was criticised worse back then than he is today.

For me, the "Mike Portnoy show" thing was more about videos, DVD releases and whatnot.  If there was an interview about a new album, he was there.  If there was a DVD audio commentary or documentary, he dominated it (see: the SC making of).  Some of us were simply tired of seeing him as the main spokesperson for the band, in large part because he often times has an obnoxious, overbearing personality, and that made watching a lot of DT things not nearly as fun.  Since his departure, they seem like a fun band again.  On the flip side, as awesome as Mangini is, his drumming isn't as fun-sounding as Portnoy's was/is (ADTOE and DT12 didn't have a lot of air drum moments for me, although TA does, while every DT album with Portnoy had them everywhere), but that is a slight sacrifice I am okay with in light of so many other things being better than they were the last five years or so when Portnoy was in the band. 

1) If Portnoy hadn't left the band, what do you think that would've happened with DT during the following years, with the supposition he didn't want a break and they continued releasing albums every two years? Were you one of those peeps who thought that DT was slowly turning into a MP-bonanza and, do you think that if he had stayed that change would've continued to unfold?

The album cycle would have continued as always, but it's impossible to know if the quality would have been as high it has been since he left, if he hadn't.  Like has been said before, bands often do their best work when they feel they have something to prove, and that has always been the case with Dream Theater.  A Dramatic Turn of Events was a damn fine album that definitely sounded like a band demonstrating that they were going to be just fine without their former drummer.

2) Do you see any mirroring on what was said on these forums of the band back then with what is being said these days? Because I do. I mean, The Astonishing was so surprising because probably no soul on earth expected an album like that (and I still put it as one of my favorite 4 Dream Theater albums, easy), but know that it's been a while we can have a more objective discussion of what it means in DT's present and how it projects their future.

The test of time is always a funny thing.  Like you said, SC and BC&SL got largely positive reactions when they each came out, yet both reside in the bottom third now for most people when ranking the albums.  On the flip side, Train of Thought was skinned alive when it was released , yet that has turned out to probably be a mid-tier DT album from a collective rankings standpoint.  You just never know how a new album will sound in a month, a year, or even five years.  For example, I still think The Astonishing sounds mostly great, but will it stand the test of time for me and still be great in, say, three years?  Impossible to know.

[Bertielee]

I was beginning to think that Portnoy was taking over Dream Theater like Daron Malakian was taking over System Of A Down. .

I completely second that.

B.Lee

[Darkstarshades]

Why was TT so negatively received on launch?

[Dream Team]

Why was TT so negatively received on launch?

For me, it seemed it had a lot of nu-metal influence. The instrumental sections are still way too over self-indulgent for a lot of fans.

[mikeyd23]

I didn't know that ToT was poorly received until I joined this forum. That's the album that got me into DT and I think it's easily mid-tier level stuff. There are some great songs on there.

[Darkstarshades]

For me, the instrumental ending to Fatal Tragedy is much more over the top than anything on ToT

[hefdaddy42]

For me, the instrumental ending to Fatal Tragedy is much more over the top than anything on ToT

That instrumental section isn't just bloated and never ending like many sections on Train of Thought.  It is incredibly well thought out and composed.

[KevShmev]

Agreed.  Plus, there's still some nice melodies in there, amongst all the fury.  On the flip side, the end of This Dying Soul is just all-out, over the top shredding.

[cramx3]

Agreed.  Plus, there's still some nice melodies in there, amongst all the fury.  On the flip side, the end of This Dying Soul is just all-out, over the top shredding.

This.  TDS is one of the few DT songs that I say, wow that really is a bit much.  I typically don't feel that way.  And Fatal Tragedy's ending is one of my favorite DT moments and actually fits the story musically at that point as well as being melodic.

[bosk1]

I didn't know that ToT was poorly received until I joined this forum. That's the album that got me into DT and I think it's easily mid-tier level stuff. There are some great songs on there.

I think "poorly received" is overstating things a bit.  A lot of fans were obviously thrown for a loop by the band going so heavy and dark for an entire album's worth of material.  But there wasn't any sort of backlash or anything like that.  I distinctly remember people posting about songs they liked, and about enthusiastically going to the shows, etc.  Every album cycle has people post that they don't like what the band is currently doing at that given point in time.  TOT certainly had that going on.  And maybe it was a bit more than a lot of other albums.  But it wasn't like there was a majority of people panning the album.  It was generally well received.

[hefdaddy42]

The main "backlash" I remember was not necessarily the quality of the songs on the album, but the simple fact of its one-dimensional quality compared to every other album they had ever made.

But I also think it is better-regarded now than it was when it came out, unlike BC&SL, for example.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that.

[Mosh]

I think it's a hindsight thing too. At the time it was the latest brand new DT album and there was probably a lot of excitement and subsequent disappointment from fans who maybe don't care for heavier DT all that much. Especially coming off of SDOIT and Scenes. Now there have been 6 albums since then and they release pretty frequently, so fans who didn't like ToT at the time can either ignore it or maybe go back to it and appreciate it without having that sense of disappointment that they went full on heavy for a whole album. it helps that the album aged really well too.

That's the good thing about DT, they change things up every album so if you're not happy with the latest one you only have to wait a couple years for something you might like.

[mikeyd23]

I didn't know that ToT was poorly received until I joined this forum. That's the album that got me into DT and I think it's easily mid-tier level stuff. There are some great songs on there.

I think "poorly received" is overstating things a bit.  A lot of fans were obviously thrown for a loop by the band going so heavy and dark for an entire album's worth of material.  But there wasn't any sort of backlash or anything like that.  I distinctly remember people posting about songs they liked, and about enthusiastically going to the shows, etc.  Every album cycle has people post that they don't like what the band is currently doing at that given point in time.  TOT certainly had that going on.  And maybe it was a bit more than a lot of other albums.  But it wasn't like there was a majority of people panning the album.  It was generally well received.

Makes sense, I'm biased because ToT got me into DT so it will always have a special place in my heart. I'm one of those fans that was introduced to DT by someone playing me ToT, so when I started exploring the rest of the albums, I was surprised they weren't as heavy as ToT because that was my only frame of reference at the time.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The main "backlash" I remember was not necessarily the quality of the songs on the album, but the simple fact of its one-dimensional quality compared to every other album they had ever made.

But I also think it is better-regarded now than it was when it came out, unlike BC&SL, for example.

True.

I think it's because DT has a grand total of 13 studio albums, which is a friggin' lot of music. There's a lot of diversity in there, so in retrospect having an all-heavy metal album doesn't sound as bad as it sounded back then (to those who didn't like it). It's a bit like what happened with The Astonishing and those who hated and bashed it because it has few heavy moments and it's bigger with the ballads.

[hefdaddy42]

So what you're saying is that metalheads ruined DT fandom?

[bosk1]

The main "backlash" I remember was not necessarily the quality of the songs on the album, but the simple fact of its one-dimensional quality compared to every other album they had ever made.

But I also think it is better-regarded now than it was when it came out, unlike BC&SL, for example.

True.

I think it's because DT has a grand total of 13 studio albums, which is a friggin' lot of music. There's a lot of diversity in there, so in retrospect having an all-heavy metal album doesn't sound as bad as it sounded back then (to those who didn't like it). It's a bit like what happened with The Astonishing and those who hated and bashed it because it has few heavy moments and it's bigger with the ballads.

Yeah, I think the reaction at first was pretty typical, with maybe a bit more people being taken aback by it because of the heaviness, as I mentioned above.  With the tour, and the release of L@B, I think some of the "skeptics" were converted, or at least those that liked the heavier, darker sound became more vocal.  But kinda like SC and BCSL, I think the "new car smell" kinda wore off for a lot of folks too, and I think it fell a bit in people's overall album rankings.  That is kind of where it fell for me.  Then when Octavarium dropped, and we then had extensive touring on that album, and then the release of Score, it kind of put TOT into more of a historical perspective.  I think the contrast of Octavarium's overall more upbeat, light, proggy sound (although it certainly has its own heavy moments) really helped people place TOT into perspective.  I know for me, I rank it fairly low in the DT discography, but still find it to be a very good, very enjoyable album.  And I think that is true of a lot of people.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

So what you're saying is that metalheads ruined DT fandom?

Not quite! 

And I'm in the same boat bosk. I enjoy Train of Thought a lot, and it's definitely an album that has aged exceptionally well for lots of us. It's an amazing car album lol.

[hefdaddy42]

To echo bosky's point about the tour, I thought that, even though I liked Train of Thought, those songs really came alive (pun intended) in a live setting.  That was a hell of a tour, probably one of their best tour cycles as far as energy and setlists (along with the Six Degrees tour and of course the Octavarium tour).

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Also, they seemed to be in their peak of their live performance Portnoy period back then. Every single bootleg I've heard off that tour has me in awe in how energetic and powerful they sounded.

[cramx3]

To echo bosky's point about the tour, I thought that, even though I liked Train of Thought, those songs really came alive (pun intended) in a live setting.  That was a hell of a tour, probably one of their best tour cycles as far as energy and setlists (along with the Six Degrees tour and of course the Octavarium tour).

While I didn't experience this tour, this is why L@B is my favorite DVD by them.  That setlist is great and the performance is spectacular.  Also helps that it's one of their better visual/audio DVDs as well (and I got the blu ray too its soo good).