Author Topic: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead  (Read 4432 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2016, 08:29:48 AM »
Just got back from the movie. Overall, quite enjoyable. Happy, Kotow? :biggrin: Some mild spoilers ahead or whatever.

First I'll get the bad out of the way-

The bad guy was generic garbage again. His motivation was "the Federation couldn't find me after my ship crashed, so everyone in the Federation must obviously die." And the concept of him staying alive was too close to a shitty episode of Sliders for me to take seriously.
They still have little concept of physics.
Still a lot of mindless action and stunts and things flying around. The bike was actually not quite as stupid as it appears in the trailer, but still a pretty weak excuse to get a bike stunt in there. I don't agree with them giving this Enterprise saucer separation either, but the crash scene was given a good amount of time.
The humour was very hit and miss. The opening scene in particular was a bad start for me.

Now for the pros-
The character moments were good, and there were a decent amount of them. A lot of moments between the main trio, and Spock/Uhura are broken up, and it's only dealt with as far as it helps the story. Every character got a more even amount of screen time, and was useful. Felt like more of an ensemble than either of the previous movies.
While some of the callbacks were a bit blunt and even perhaps insulting, there were several less obvious callbacks that I appreciated. The USS Franklin was well integrated into the story. Not sure it quite works out, with them claiming it was the first warp 4 vessel, from 2160, with a high registry number. I would assume it's meant to be post Enterprise, with an incorrect warp speed given, but generally it tied in well to Enterprise.
Nimoy's absence was handled nicely.
Any complaints about whether or not they should have made Sulu gay aside, it was a non event, and nothing to complain about. It actually also remains consistent with him having a daughter according to Generations too. If anything, they could have used it more given the danger at the end.
Quite a bit of technobabble, although some of it comes back to my hinky science criticism. But a lot of it fitted with what's been established in Trek.
Aside from my criticisms of the bad guy, the story was solid. Not particularly fresh or original, but no major plotholes that took me out of it.
As expected, we see a new Enterprise at the end. There wasn't a lot of time to analyze it, but it looks generally like the old one, but with some notable changes. They've widened the nacelles to match the width of the ship, which I noticed because that was my biggest gripe with the old design. The nacelles appeared to be the same. I think they may have also fixed the weird swept forward secondary hull. There's also more detail on the neck. Didn't have time to confirm much else, but it appears it might take a few cues from the refit, but at the very least it fixes up my major problems with the reboot design from what I can tell.

Miles better than Into Darkness (this shouldn't surprise anyone), perhaps better than ST'09, although with the same general flaws. For now I'll tentatively give it a solid 7/10 while I let it sink in. At the very least, it felt like they took some time to read memory alpha while writing this one, rather than watching Star Wars. :lol
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 08:36:34 AM by BlobVanDam »
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2016, 08:58:19 AM »
:tup. Pegg says they relied heavily on memory alpha.

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2016, 09:08:25 AM »
You could tell. As I said, the USS Franklin, and that era as a whole was a major component of the story of the movie. It was more than just a reference to Archer and his dog, or a model of the NX-01 sitting on a desk, or calling something section 31. It felt like they made an effort to respect and incorporate the history, rather than spit on it like it felt with JJ. I'm actually not opposed to another movie with these writers. There are still areas for major improvement, especially as far as antagonists and action sequences go, but I enjoyed it.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2016, 09:48:49 AM »
Can't every Federation vessel seperate the saucer though ?

They even mention it in an episode of TOS. It can be used as a lifeboat but it's a last resort and can't be re-attached.

They wanted to film it for TOS but couldn't afford it so that's why Encounter at Farpoint did it.

Maybe it's a reference to the fact they always wanted to do it with the TOS ship.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2016, 09:52:45 AM »
Can't every Federation vessel seperate the saucer though ?

They even mention it in an episode of TOS. It can be used as a lifeboat but it's a last resort and can't be re-attached.

They wanted to film it for TOS but couldn't afford it so that's why Encounter at Farpoint did it.

Maybe it's a reference to the fact they always wanted to do it with the TOS ship.

I just checked memory alpha, and it appears that only referred to separating the nacelles rather than separating the saucer section from the secondary hull. Seemed like more of a TNG reference to me, with the crash reminding me of how it went down in Generations. Given that the technology in general in the reboot is accelerated compared to the 1960's show, it wasn't a major point against it, I just felt it took something away from the Enterprise D.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2016, 09:58:58 AM »
I love the Generations crash scene. Looking forward to seeing a new crash scene like that.

I haven't seen every episode of Star Trek ever so I probably won't get all the easter eggs.


I watched the Beyond press conference and they basically gave away Krall's secret and everything. But I don't mind.

I'll forget it as soon as the movie starts anyways...Sounds intriguing..
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 10:04:16 AM by Kotowboy »
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2016, 10:08:57 AM »
So it's better than '09 ?

I've heard from actual hardcore Trekkies that it's *by far* the best of the reboots and some think it's the best movie since Undiscovered Country.


I loved 09 and enjoyed Into Darkness but understand the crits too.

If Blob enjoys Beyond then i'll probably LOVE it :) :)
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2016, 10:12:39 AM »
I'd need to give it time before deciding, but I think it's probably better than ST'09. Krall was so weak that I couldn't rank it above FC at the least. The reboot movies have all had awful bad guys with zero depth between them. With an entire universe of possibilities, they keep coming back to the exact same thing.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2016, 10:30:15 AM »
I'd need to give it time before deciding, but I think it's probably better than ST'09. Krall was so weak that I couldn't rank it above FC at the least. The reboot movies have all had awful bad guys with zero depth between them. With an entire universe of possibilities, they keep coming back to the exact same thing.

Bad guy wants revenge / has ulterior motive / wants dat big weapon has been a ST movie staple since 1984 though.

Khan, Kruge, Chang, Soran, Insurrection guy whose name I never remember / Shinzon / Nero / Khan / Krall.

I really hope that FOR ONCE Star Trek 4 is an exploration story. I get tired of reading " such and such cast as new ST villain but don't worry he's got a backstory..."
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2016, 02:44:25 PM »
I get tired of reading " such and such cast as new ST villain but don't worry he's got a backstory..."
I was thinking about this the other day and it's definitely a big problem. Some of the better movies didn't really have bad "guys." In Insurrection it wasn't a particular bad guy but several. In TUC it was a conspiracy of different races. TMP was a satellite with unknown intelligence. TVH didn't really have a villain at all. That reliance seems to be a modern thing. FC couldn't use just the Borg as the antagonist, they had to invent the Borg queen. Then they started modeling things after TWoK with Nemesis with angry, revenge driven nobodies.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2016, 02:49:16 PM »
My favourite after Khan is definitely Soran. When we left Dubai in 1988 - It really fucking upset me. Like a lot.

The story of being desperate to get back to a place really hit me.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2016, 02:53:30 PM »
Wrong Thread :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 03:05:45 PM by Kotowboy »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2016, 09:29:28 PM »
The bad guys in the last 3 movies (and even Nemesis too) just had such poorly fleshed out motivations to the point that they're little more than a target for the good guys to shoot at. Star Trek has covered so much ground, and yet now they have to simply to "ME BAD GUY DESTROY ENTERPRISE AND FEDERATION BECAUSE REASONS".

TMP had a strange alien ship destroying things for unknown reasons and threatening Earth. There wasn't a bad guy in the typical sense, just some messed up technology searching for its creator to complete its garbled mission, and a human interface to communicate with. The ultimate solution wasn't to destroy it, but to combine with humanity to the next evolutionary step, or whatever it was. The solution wasn't explosions though. Maybe not the best example of creating an exciting movie with a different plot. :lol

TWOK had the most typical bad guy, but it had the benefit of a TOS episode behind it for a truly personal vendetta with meaning. Khan and his group were exiled to a doomed planet by Kirk and many of his men died, and he holds Kirk personally responsible. His men want to be free, but Khan is fixated on revenge against Kirk in a battle of wits.

TSFS was driven by the crew saving Spock, and they happen to run into some Klingons who want the genesis device as a weapon for Klingon stuff. Nothing personal against the crew or the Federation, and it tied into the previous movie nicely. Overall pretty average though.

TVH had a giant flying space penis trying to communicate with Earth whales for some reason, and the answer was to time travel and bring back some whales. Definitely one of the stranger plots. The destruction caused by the space penis was incidental to its apparent purpose. There was no bad guy, and pew pews weren't the answer. The answer was WHALES.

TFF is another one I can't say I've ever bothered to understand the plot of. Spock's half brother tricks the crew so he can steal their ship to find space God. Space God wants a space ship to escape maybe? Not a standard bad guy or plot whatever it was, and it wasn't a standard bad guy pew pews.

TUC is all space politics. They had to pew pew some bad guys, but the motivation on both sides was space politics. Thoroughly Trek-y.

ST'09 had a Romulan who was mad because his planet was destroyed by natural causes and the Federation couldn't help, so obviously the Federation must all die, and the guy who tried to help must suffer.

I'm not going to try to make sense of the convoluted mess of Into Darkness, but both Sherlock Holmes and Robocop were terribly written bad guys trying to explode the crew and the Federation for whatever reasons. The whole reason Khan was such a great bad guy in TOS/TWOK was the personal plot between Kirk and Khan, which was not only completely absent in this case, but the reveal was laughable due to the complete lack of importance of it.

STB had a bad guy who was mad because he crashed and the Federation couldn't find and save his crew, so obviously the Federation must all die via ancient super weapon Kirk happened to be in possession of.

These are all simplifications of course, and not comments on the movies themselves, and as I said, I enjoyed STB plenty for everything else that was going on. My only point is that I want more variety for plots and antagonists, some depth to the bad guy. TOS alone has plenty of crazy ideas they could use as inspiration that could make great movies (and even still fill their explosion quota) that would make for much fresher plots than boiling down to a bad guy coming after the crew and the Federation / Earth for some unsubstantial flimsy reason. I don't need to put a face to some clear cut bad guy to get invested in a film.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 09:38:22 PM by BlobVanDam »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2016, 10:12:56 PM »
TFF had one pseudo-bad guy who led you to the actual bad guy, who was mostly incidental to the movie, while a different pseudo-bad guy occasionally got in the way. Even though the movie was pretty awful I've got no problem with this. Better than some random bad guy of the week.

I will say the many of the more recent movies have bad guys that really aren't any different than Khan, including two that essentially were him. It's just that by that point they'd become formulaic. Khan, as you said, had the advantage of a known history. Also, and I don't think I've thought of this before, his return largely happened in realtime. We knew him and he was gone about the right length of time. That continuity goes a long way.

As I've said before, I really don't think they could make a ST movie that had a V'ger or Space Dick as a stand-in antagonist rather than Introducing Some Intense Dude! I'd really love to see them try, though.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2016, 10:15:43 PM »
Star Trek Space Dick. Cuming 2019.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2016, 10:28:13 PM »
TFF had one pseudo-bad guy who led you to the actual bad guy, who was mostly incidental to the movie, while a different pseudo-bad guy occasionally got in the way. Even though the movie was pretty awful I've got no problem with this. Better than some random bad guy of the week.

Yeah, I'd forgotten a lot of the details. I do enjoy the movie a lot, but the plot is one of the worst for sure.

I will say the many of the more recent movies have bad guys that really aren't any different than Khan, including two that essentially were him. It's just that by that point they'd become formulaic. Khan, as you said, had the advantage of a known history. Also, and I don't think I've thought of this before, his return largely happened in realtime. We knew him and he was gone about the right length of time. That continuity goes a long way.

As I've said before, I really don't think they could make a ST movie that had a V'ger or Space Dick as a stand-in antagonist rather than Introducing Some Intense Dude! I'd really love to see them try, though.

And that's the thing. Khan worked so well because of that backstory. It's a rare situation for a movie to have that, and it was an essential part of the formula that's missing from recent attempts. Into Darkness showed you can't recreate it by just dumping the character into a setting without that setup. Nemesis tried to force that personal connection with Shinzon, and it also failed miserably for the same reasons.
Regardless of their success, it just feels so uninspired to keep doing the same thing, when they went to the trouble of creating this blank canvas with the reboot. It doesn't need to be something as abstract as a giant space penis, but at least do a bad guy with a different purpose and motivation, perhaps something less morally black and white that makes you think, or some kind of different being rather than a super strong humanoid for Kirk to have fisticuffs with at the end. Surely there's plenty of middle ground between space penis whale probe and Khan. :lol
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2016, 10:34:53 PM »
One of the reasons I really liked Watchmen (even though apparently everyone else hated it) was because the bad guy (despite being miscast) truly thought he was doing the right thing, and to an extent, you could see where he was coming from.

That's what I want in an antagonist. It's so easy to make a binary/black and white good vs. evil situation, but I feel like the grey area needs to be explored a lot more. What if the bad guy is trying to do the right thing the wrong way? What if it's just a clash of morals/principals (like in Civil War)? What if the good guy and bad guy's parents have the same name? So many options.

I want to feel a sense of sadness when the bad guy loses. Like "Damn, if only he could have been reasoned with or something, dude was just misguided"
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2016, 10:41:20 PM »
It's funny y'all get into the black and white-ness of modern bad guys. I was pondering Falling Down earlier and how wonderful D-Fens was as an antagonist. The movie played it out so well that in the end, when he reacted with equal amounts of sadness and bewilderment upon learning that he was, in fact, the bad guy that it really struck you. Yeah, I'm not sure why they can't do that in a ST setting.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2016, 03:04:48 PM »
P.S.

Michael Giacchino's STAR TREK BEYOND Score is now on Spotify / Deezer.

:)
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2016, 04:48:20 PM »
Just saw the movie. My first impression is that it was fine. That's it basically. It was big and entertaining, which is what I expected I guess, but few things really stood out here.

Also, while they did a fine job explaining it so that I understood the stakes, I never really felt the stakes. Don't know why though.

I enjoyed watching it though, which is a big plus.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2016, 11:45:21 AM »
Agree. Another solid Trek movie. Nothing more or less.

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2016, 12:05:15 PM »
Just saw it. It was fun, but the writing was absolutely lazy. Out of the alternate timeline Star Trek movies, this is the weakest. Nothing grabbed like the last two movies did. Again, a fun movie to watch (it is a Justin Lin movie after all)

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2016, 12:14:02 PM »
I don't see how the writing could be WORSE than Into Darkness.

As much as I enjoy the *spectacle* of that movie - the script is basically a colander.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2016, 01:10:46 PM »
Into Darkness is probably my favorite. The only thing I don't like about it is the lazy resurrection, the rest is pretty neat.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2016, 01:17:29 PM »
Into Darkness is probably my favorite. The only thing I don't like about it is the lazy resurrection, the rest is pretty neat.

I enjoy the pacing and the visuals and the acting - especially from Benedict. But a lot of it doesn't make sense.

I don't even have a problem with the Wrath of Khan homage per se - just that the dialogue is VERBATIM and it's not even the same characters saying the lines.

The Vengeance crash scene is pretty awesome but it should have ended there with Khan dying. Or at least being in a coma at the end.

The barge fight with Khan and Spock was not necessary at all.

The film doesn't explain WHY Marcus wants a war with the Klingons. Khan just says he does. He made the Vengeance to protect Earth from threats like Nero.

So why does he now want a war with the Klingons. Unless Khan was lying.



I expect the writing on BEYOND to much tighter.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2016, 01:23:57 PM »
I don't think you have to have an answer drawn out for you on why Marcus wanted to attack the Klingon.

Their Klingons!   He was thinking strike first or they will.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2016, 01:51:36 PM »
I don't think you have to have an answer drawn out for you on why Marcus wanted to attack the Klingon.

Their Klingons!   He was thinking strike first or they will.

Well he mentioned they had attacked 3 Federation ships already and with Nero attacking too - he wanted to build the Vengeance to be prepared for anything that came along.

But then Khan said he WANTED a Klingon war.

That's the part that didn't make sense.

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2016, 02:08:03 PM »
Yes, he wanted to cause chaos but when he found out about the 72 advanced missiles he had to save his race and decided to manipulate both and get to his people as well as continuing this war.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #98 on: July 23, 2016, 02:09:05 PM »
I assumed Khan was lying about that bit.



I'm seeing Beyond on Tuesday. :) :)
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #99 on: July 23, 2016, 02:17:34 PM »
Drive in tonight!!!!! :metal

Edit: 

« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 05:37:03 PM by kingshmegland »
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #100 on: July 23, 2016, 08:56:30 PM »
I really enjoyed the movie.  The Spock moment at the end of the film was a nice touch.

It was really sad to see in the credits, "For Anton".






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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #101 on: July 23, 2016, 10:40:57 PM »
The plot of ID was an incoherent mess on the level of a Transformers movie. Even on first viewing, it didn't hold up to logical scrutiny.
The writing on Beyond was easily the strongest out of the 3 movies imo. It used some sense and consistency, and is the only movie out of the three where the writing actually made me smile at times. It was still far from perfect, especially as far as Krall was concerned as I mentioned earlier, but it's no comparison to ID or even ST'09. Those were lazy.
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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2016, 06:31:43 AM »
Saw the film last night. Really enjoyed it.
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2016, 10:51:33 AM »
Just came back from Star Trek: Beyond. It was a great movie IMO.

Few Things:

I felt like a really good two-part episode of a Trek tv show, with a big budget. Made me wonder what Best of Both Worlds, Scorpion or Dark Frontier would have looked like with a similar Budget...

I cringed a bit when they found a technobabble solution, and used a Beastie Boys song to destroy the swarm ships. :biggrin: It was pretty cool though..

Is Sofia Boutella going to replace the late Anton Yelchin in the main cast? She was awesome in the film, and her character has a lot of potential.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Star Trek Beyond V. Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2016, 10:57:28 AM »
I think JJ said they won't recast or replace Anton, which works since TOS managed plenty of episodes without Chekov. Jayla would make an interesting addition though, and I'd be all for her appearing again. I doubt it though.

Destroying the swarm was clearly just an excuse for explosions though. :lol You'd think they'd have some kind of shielding against basic radio wave interference, or at least a failsafe sensor method of avoiding catastrophic collisions with the other ships. But anyway....
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