Last 3 albums with Portnoy vs First 3 albums with Mangini

[arkdtmp]

I'd take Octavarium alone over the 3 MM albums. The rest is just a bonus. For me the best of these 3 MM albums is on par with the worst of the 3 MP albums.

Me too. Octavarium is my favorite album of all time; it's got the perfect mix of everything, with the best production, concept I've ever seen.

 
Dream Theater was one of their worst albums ever, it is just so forgettable and The Astonishing is okay. I love almost all of the songs on Systematic Chaos (except MAYBE Repentance), and I like all of Black Clouds.  ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Funny you think this, given that some Portnoy fanboys think that MP wrote the drums for this album before he left lol

Also, ADTOE is the most Portnoy-ish album out of the 3 Mangini era albums.

[King Postwhore]

The drumming doesn't suck at all.  Their sound does.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The drumming doesn't suck at all.  Their sound does.

Very true, good sire.

[Dream Team]

I'd take Octavarium alone over the 3 MM albums. The rest is just a bonus. For me the best of these 3 MM albums is on par with the worst of the 3 MP albums.

Me too. Octavarium is my favorite album of all time; it's got the perfect mix of everything, with the best production, concept I've ever seen.

 
Dream Theater was one of their worst albums ever, it is just so forgettable and The Astonishing is okay. I love almost all of the songs on Systematic Chaos (except MAYBE Repentance), and I like all of Black Clouds.  ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Everything about this post is 

[arkdtmp]

yawn

[Fluffy Lothario]

The only album I care for from the last six these days is ADTOE, so as much as the last two have done nothing for me, MM wins based purely on that.

I think the song Octavarium is the only thing I still have around from those last 3 MP albums, and even that, with its incredible moments, is dragged down from being a foaming-at-the-mouth overdose of the "lol nuggets" aspect of the band.

I'd much rather listen to the last Portnoy albums. It felt like there was more spark in the band.

I can kind of see where people with this opinion are coming from. The band are throwing ideas around quite recklessly in that period, which I guess could make the albums exciting. Having said that, I can also see how a lot of people think a good lot of the spark they were conjuring was just setting the forest ablaze.

But my opinion of those two albums is not as forgiving as TOX's.

Which is a funny notion, as TOX used to rip into SC pretty badly.

[arkdtmp]

ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Funny you think this, given that some Portnoy fanboys think that MP wrote the drums for this album before he left lol

Also, ADTOE is the most Portnoy-ish album out of the 3 Mangini era albums.

'Portnoy-ish' ? I really don't know what means. Do you mean that Dream Theater's albums from WDADU-BC&SL are Portnoy-ish because he led most of the arranging and overall direction? That doesn't make much sense. I think Dream Theater's albums have always been a team effort, with ideas being brought to the table by different members as a collaboration (at least till Black Clouds) . And it has been made clear that JP wrote basic drum tracks for ADTOE, and Mangini used them for direction when recording. Mangini fanboys fail to see the lack of inventiveness on this album for reasons that elude me.

[red barchetta]

ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Funny you think this, given that some Portnoy fanboys think that MP wrote the drums for this album before he left lol

Also, ADTOE is the most Portnoy-ish album out of the 3 Mangini era albums.

When I think of the drums on ADTOE, it's the sound that could have been better.  In fact I still think that the sound of the MM era has a total different production than MP time and the sound of MP is something that really got my attention and one of the main reason I fell in love with DT.

[energythief]

Although I dislike The Astonishing, the final three Portnoy albums are just lackluster. Voted Mangini all the way.

[erwinrafael]

ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Funny you think this, given that some Portnoy fanboys think that MP wrote the drums for this album before he left lol

Also, ADTOE is the most Portnoy-ish album out of the 3 Mangini era albums.

'Portnoy-ish' ? I really don't know what means. Do you mean that Dream Theater's albums from WDADU-BC&SL are Portnoy-ish because he led most of the arranging and overall direction? That doesn't make much sense. I think Dream Theater's albums have always been a team effort, with ideas being brought to the table by different members as a collaboration (at least till Black Clouds) . And it has been made clear that JP wrote basic drum tracks for ADTOE, and Mangini used them for direction when recording. Mangini fanboys fail to see the lack of inventiveness on this album for reasons that elude me.

However, recent interviews by JR suggest that the realiry of the songwriting in DT since he came in is closer to what was made obvious in TA, that JP is the main songwriter and he was brought in as a co-writer. Which is why he is happy with the way songwriting credits were given in the recent album.

[Adami]

ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Funny you think this, given that some Portnoy fanboys think that MP wrote the drums for this album before he left lol

Also, ADTOE is the most Portnoy-ish album out of the 3 Mangini era albums.

'Portnoy-ish' ? I really don't know what means. Do you mean that Dream Theater's albums from WDADU-BC&SL are Portnoy-ish because he led most of the arranging and overall direction? That doesn't make much sense. I think Dream Theater's albums have always been a team effort, with ideas being brought to the table by different members as a collaboration (at least till Black Clouds) . And it has been made clear that JP wrote basic drum tracks for ADTOE, and Mangini used them for direction when recording. Mangini fanboys fail to see the lack of inventiveness on this album for reasons that elude me.

However, recent interviews by JR suggest that the realiry of the songwriting in DT since he came in is closer to what was made obvious in TA, that JP is the main songwriter and he was brought in as a co-writer. Which is why he is happy with the way songwriting credits were given in the recent album.

As far as who wrote what riff, probably. But how songs are written? I don't think so. All of the behind the scenes stuff we've seen shows that while JP and JR bring it most of the music, they jam it out as a band, arranging as they go (with Portnoy playing a large role in that) and building on things and writing new riffs from those jams. TA (which I like) was written as JP and JR in a room together alone essentially. Before Mangini, that's just not how the albums were written. Parts? Sure. But most of the stuff was written as a band, even if the other guys didn't actually compose much of the riffs/melodies.

[erwinrafael]

Well, this is what Jordan said in one interview:

Rudess tells Dream Theater Club that “there’s no doubt” he wasn’t getting his due with the old credits style. He says: “People were very confused – listing all the names on the Dream Theater album was very misleading.

“The last 16 years John and I have been the main composers of this band. And this is not to take away anything really from Mike Portnoy, who was a major influence in the band. Mike wrote a lot of the words and often would write melody lines with John Petrucci for the songs. He would also also have a say in what was capped and what was not.”

He adds: “This is a tricky subject because I don’t want to take away anything from my respect for Mike Portnoy and his talent and ability.”

[Adami]

Yes, and everything i said is fine with that.

However, to imply that all DT albums since JR joined have been written the same way TA was is just false.

[SwedishGoose]

Octavarium the song is one of my favorites but the album is weighted down by some other not so good ones. Both SC and BC&SL are quite far down my list of DT albums.

I like both ADTOE and DT12 a lot and The Astonishing is competing for the spot as my favorite DT album.

Best of these runs is not a contest for me... MM run

[erwinrafael]

Yes, and everything i said is fine with that.

However, to imply that all DT albums since JR joined have been written the same way TA was is just false.

I never said it was exactly the same way as TA. I said that the actual songwriting is closer to TA witg two main songwriters with others chipping in some ideas than the total team effort they tried to propagate in their behind the scenes videos and in the way they credit songwriting. That is my take on JR's recent interviews.

[Adami]

Yes, and everything i said is fine with that.

However, to imply that all DT albums since JR joined have been written the same way TA was is just false.

I never said it was exactly the same way as TA. I said that the actual songwriting is closer to TA witg two main songwriters with others chipping in some ideas than the total team effort they tried to propagate in their behind the scenes videos and in the way they credit songwriting. That is my take on JR's recent interviews.

Cool, but JRs statements can't be taken in isolation. We have actual videos of them working on other albums, they worked on them as a band. Did MP and JM write as much? Clearly not, but they wrote the stuff with the band, or at least MP present and jamming. A lot of ideas came out of jams. JR's statements can't discount all of the other stuff we have seen and all of the other stuff every member has said. All he did was point out that the actual riffs/melodies were largely written by those 2, which is very different than those two writing an album together and the other guys writing their own parts to songs.

[Dream Team]

Well, this is what Jordan said in one interview:

Rudess tells Dream Theater Club that “there’s no doubt” he wasn’t getting his due with the old credits style. He says: “People were very confused – listing all the names on the Dream Theater album was very misleading.

“The last 16 years John and I have been the main composers of this band. And this is not to take away anything really from Mike Portnoy, who was a major influence in the band. Mike wrote a lot of the words and often would write melody lines with John Petrucci for the songs. He would also also have a say in what was capped and what was not.”

He adds: “This is a tricky subject because I don’t want to take away anything from my respect for Mike Portnoy and his talent and ability.”

What did he mean by "capped"?

[?]

While ADTOE is the only album out of these six that I truly love, the last three MP albums are at the bottom of my DT ranking, which made the decision easy for me.

[robbob]

It's a toss-up for me. Love ADTOE, one of my favorite albums. DT12 is just OK and The Astonishing is good, especially Live. Octavarium is good ( fav's are the title track and These Walls ). Love Systematic Chaos besides a couple of songs, it's a fun and very enjoyable album to listen to, still think the Intro to ITPOE is one of the best things they've ever done. BC&SL is one of my least favorite DT albums.
So, think I'll go with the MM run by a hair.

[ReaPsTA]

Well, this is what Jordan said in one interview:

Rudess tells Dream Theater Club that “there’s no doubt” he wasn’t getting his due with the old credits style. He says: “People were very confused – listing all the names on the Dream Theater album was very misleading.

“The last 16 years John and I have been the main composers of this band. And this is not to take away anything really from Mike Portnoy, who was a major influence in the band. Mike wrote a lot of the words and often would write melody lines with John Petrucci for the songs. He would also also have a say in what was capped and what was not.”

He adds: “This is a tricky subject because I don’t want to take away anything from my respect for Mike Portnoy and his talent and ability.”

I'd take those comments with a grain of salt. After MP left, the band, including JR, expressed that he had a very tight grip on everything they do. The Lifting Shadows book creates the same impression. There's a video, it might be on Rudess's Youtube channel, where JP talks about writing ITPOE w/ MP and how they drew up a contract for how to structure a section and then MP decided to scrap it. I make this sound more serious than it actually was (JP was laughing as he discussed this), but you're seeing on video how tightly MP controlled what got put on the album and how. Down playing MP's influence on the music is like saying film editors don't really make a film because they only cut the footage, when a lot of people knowledgeable about film think they're the single most important part of the process.

In general, his comments are strangely overt. To compare, Neil Peart hasn't been a credited songwriter on Rush's last few albums because Lee and Lifeson write the songs together and then Peart adds his drum tracks over what they come up with. Makes sense. But I've never heard of Lee or Lifeson saying in an interview that it would be misleading to think Peart has a role in shaping the music. Trying too hard to take credit for anything is always suspicious.

[Madman Shepherd]

Well, this is what Jordan said in one interview:

Rudess tells Dream Theater Club that “there’s no doubt” he wasn’t getting his due with the old credits style. He says: “People were very confused – listing all the names on the Dream Theater album was very misleading.

“The last 16 years John and I have been the main composers of this band. And this is not to take away anything really from Mike Portnoy, who was a major influence in the band. Mike wrote a lot of the words and often would write melody lines with John Petrucci for the songs. He would also also have a say in what was capped and what was not.”

He adds: “This is a tricky subject because I don’t want to take away anything from my respect for Mike Portnoy and his talent and ability.”

I'd take those comments with a grain of salt. After MP left, the band, including JR, expressed that he had a very tight grip on everything they do. The Lifting Shadows book creates the same impression. There's a video, it might be on Rudess's Youtube channel, where JP talks about writing ITPOE w/ MP and how they drew up a contract for how to structure a section and then MP decided to scrap it. I make this sound more serious than it actually was (JP was laughing as he discussed this), but you're seeing on video how tightly MP controlled what got put on the album and how. Down playing MP's influence on the music is like saying film editors don't really make a film because they only cut the footage, when a lot of people knowledgeable about film think they're the single most important part of the process.

In general, his comments are strangely overt. To compare, Neil Peart hasn't been a credited songwriter on Rush's last few albums because Lee and Lifeson write the songs together and then Peart adds his drum tracks over what they come up with. Makes sense. But I've never heard of Lee or Lifeson saying in an interview that it would be misleading to think Peart has a role in shaping the music. Trying too hard to take credit for anything is always suspicious.

So you're accusing Jordan of trying too hard to take credit?  I can think of someone who has tried pretty damn hard to take credit but it isn't Jordan or John. 

While Mike may have played a big role in the arrangements of the songs, so did Jordan and John.  To call Mike the main arranger is like saying all Jordan and John can do is come up with random riffs and they need someone to piece them together.  That is simply not true. They all arranged the music, including Mike. Mike had a strong voice in the creative process but most people think of a song writer as someone that is coming up with the actual music which Mike rarely did other than vocal melodies for is share of songs.  This isn't to say he shouldn't receive songwriting credit.  Vocal melodies are a very important part of the songwriting process.  But if arrangement was so important, should Kevin Shirley not take songwriting credits on Falling Into Infinity?  His fingerprints were all over that one. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Well, this is what Jordan said in one interview:

Rudess tells Dream Theater Club that “there’s no doubt” he wasn’t getting his due with the old credits style. He says: “People were very confused – listing all the names on the Dream Theater album was very misleading.

“The last 16 years John and I have been the main composers of this band. And this is not to take away anything really from Mike Portnoy, who was a major influence in the band. Mike wrote a lot of the words and often would write melody lines with John Petrucci for the songs. He would also also have a say in what was capped and what was not.”

He adds: “This is a tricky subject because I don’t want to take away anything from my respect for Mike Portnoy and his talent and ability.”

I'd take those comments with a grain of salt. After MP left, the band, including JR, expressed that he had a very tight grip on everything they do. The Lifting Shadows book creates the same impression. There's a video, it might be on Rudess's Youtube channel, where JP talks about writing ITPOE w/ MP and how they drew up a contract for how to structure a section and then MP decided to scrap it. I make this sound more serious than it actually was (JP was laughing as he discussed this), but you're seeing on video how tightly MP controlled what got put on the album and how. Down playing MP's influence on the music is like saying film editors don't really make a film because they only cut the footage, when a lot of people knowledgeable about film think they're the single most important part of the process.

In general, his comments are strangely overt. To compare, Neil Peart hasn't been a credited songwriter on Rush's last few albums because Lee and Lifeson write the songs together and then Peart adds his drum tracks over what they come up with. Makes sense. But I've never heard of Lee or Lifeson saying in an interview that it would be misleading to think Peart has a role in shaping the music. Trying too hard to take credit for anything is always suspicious.

I'm not very knowledgable about how all this stuff works, but I always thought there was a big difference between editing and writing. Editing is something that a producer - which MP was - would do, whereas actually coming up with melodies and riffs is something that deserves a writing credit. Maybe someone familiar with the legalese of it all can clarify, but I think that what Jordan said was fair.

[Mosh]

This is actually pretty difficult. DT12 and Octavarium are pretty close in quality, I have no idea where to rank The Astonishing yet, and everything else is closer to the bottom with SC being my least favorite.

[ReaPsTA]

So you're accusing Jordan of trying too hard to take credit?  I can think of someone who has tried pretty damn hard to take credit but it isn't Jordan or John.

Why else would JR say what he said? 

While Mike may have played a big role in the arrangements of the songs, so did Jordan and John.  To call Mike the main arranger is like saying all Jordan and John can do is come up with random riffs and they need someone to piece them together.  That is simply not true.

And I didn't say that.

They all arranged the music, including Mike. Mike had a strong voice in the creative process but most people think of a song writer as someone that is coming up with the actual music which Mike rarely did other than vocal melodies for is share of songs.  This isn't to say he shouldn't receive songwriting credit.  Vocal melodies are a very important part of the songwriting process.

You could get super granular with the kinds of credits people deserve and don't deserve. Should MP be a credited arranger? Producer? Writer? Additional material? It's hard to say since no one was there. But we can reasonably believe he was very involved with and very controlling of the process of jamming on the music and giving input to where it should go. Even if he wasn't creating the melodies himself, he wasn't just watching them write music and then giving his opinion. He was playing drums and giving input with the rest of the band while figuring out the songs. I don't know how that isn't writing music, unless you define the term super specifically.

But if arrangement was so important, should Kevin Shirley not take songwriting credits on Falling Into Infinity?  His fingerprints were all over that one.

As far as we know, Shirley wasn't involved with the songwriting process. But he is the producer on the album for a reason.

I'm not very knowledgable about how all this stuff works, but I always thought there was a big difference between editing and writing. Editing is something that a producer - which MP was - would do, whereas actually coming up with melodies and riffs is something that deserves a writing credit. Maybe someone familiar with the legalese of it all can clarify, but I think that what Jordan said was fair.

Your post gets at more the underlying question of "what is writing?" A lot of the answer is simply legal. But in this case, it's more of a philosophical question.

The reason I mentioned editing is that people think taking pre-existing elements and deciding how they go together is mostly technical. But choosing takes and how they are edited can radically alter what the finished product is. Somewhere on the Internet, you can find a rough edit of the Star Wars Catina scene. I'm not sure if any of the takes are even different, but the timing of the cuts is completely different, and the result is nothing like Star Wars.

So, to transfer that over to music, making decisions like "this intro should be two measures vs four measures" can have a massive impact on the final product. Or saying "we should go from this heavy riff to something softer" instead of an epic section fundamentally alters what the song is. We know MP made these decisions because we have video of him doing it. And I can't think of any song written during the JR era where JP and JR sat down and wrote a song together than showed MP the result. Virtually all of it was jammed out as a group. So, if by any definition of songwriting other than "writing the melodies" MP co-wrote the music, then why would JR call it misleading to have him as a credited writer?

[Mosh]

Nothing in that JR interview really contradicts anything we already knew, or anything MP has said even. I'm pretty sure MP himself has said that he acted more as an arranger and that JP/JR were the main composers.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

So, if by any definition of songwriting other than "writing the melodies" MP co-wrote the music, then why would JR call it misleading to have him as a credited writer?

I'm guessing that JR thinks the definition of songwriting is exactly that: "writing the melodies". I actually think that's how most bands do it. Hence why so many bassists and drummers, despite composing their own parts and hugely impacting songs, never get credit for anything.

[ReaPsTA]

So, if by any definition of songwriting other than "writing the melodies" MP co-wrote the music, then why would JR call it misleading to have him as a credited writer?

I'm guessing that JR thinks the definition of songwriting is exactly that: "writing the melodies". I actually think that's how most bands do it. Hence why so many bassists and drummers, despite composing their own parts and hugely impacting songs, never get credit for anything.

Which I.... guess is fine....? Like, I don't disagree with any of what you're saying, in terms of JR's thought process and how music credits are often handed out. I'm willing to buy that JP and JR are the only credited songwriters on TA because they wrote the songs and then sent them to MM and JM to write the drum and bass parts.

What strikes me about what JR said is this: Virtually every interview and piece of writing about the band produced while MP was in it talked about how he, JP, and JR were the three primary influences on the record. Including Lifting Shadows, in which Paul Northfield refers to Rudess's role in the band as like a hired gun. Then MP leaves, and JR was very clear in multiple interviews that he felt MP's control over the band had become too much. And now he's saying that him and JP are the primary composers and have been for some time. The contradiction is impossible not to notice, and it feels like JR's trying to create a narrative. Half the quote in erwin's post is him qualifying his comments. Why would he need to do that?

[erwinrafael]

Your post gets at more the underlying question of "what is writing?" A lot of the answer is simply legal. But in this case, it's more of a philosophical question.

The reason I mentioned editing is that people think taking pre-existing elements and deciding how they go together is mostly technical. But choosing takes and how they are edited can radically alter what the finished product is. Somewhere on the Internet, you can find a rough edit of the Star Wars Catina scene. I'm not sure if any of the takes are even different, but the timing of the cuts is completely different, and the result is nothing like Star Wars.

So, to transfer that over to music, making decisions like "this intro should be two measures vs four measures" can have a massive impact on the final product. Or saying "we should go from this heavy riff to something softer" instead of an epic section fundamentally alters what the song is. We know MP made these decisions because we have video of him doing it. And I can't think of any song written during the JR era where JP and JR sat down and wrote a song together than showed MP the result. Virtually all of it was jammed out as a group. So, if by any definition of songwriting other than "writing the melodies" MP co-wrote the music, then why would JR call it misleading to have him as a credited writer?

That is the "reality show" version of how they wrote the songs. The ones caught on video which they know would be released for public viewing. My sense about JR's recent interviews is that that's not really the case.

Anyway, about songwriting credits, I think the norm in the music industry is that there is a distinction between songwriting and arrangement. This is apparent in terms of remakes of songs. There are remakes of songs that drastically change the original arrangement. But credit is still given to the original songwriters. This manifests that the professional musicians themselves differentiate musical arrangement from songwriting.

Most bands actually give individual songwriting credit where credit is due even though they write songs together in the studio. Queen, Eagles, The Beatles did. The band that I can think of that gives equal songwriting credits to all members like Dream Theater is Van Halen.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Which I.... guess is fine....? Like, I don't disagree with any of what you're saying, in terms of JR's thought process and how music credits are often handed out. I'm willing to buy that JP and JR are the only credited songwriters on TA because they wrote the songs and then sent them to MM and JM to write the drum and bass parts.

What strikes me about what JR said is this: Virtually every interview and piece of writing about the band produced while MP was in it talked about how he, JP, and JR were the three primary influences on the record. Including Lifting Shadows, in which Paul Northfield refers to Rudess's role in the band as like a hired gun. Then MP leaves, and JR was very clear in multiple interviews that he felt MP's control over the band had become too much. And now he's saying that him and JP are the primary composers and have been for some time. The contradiction is impossible not to notice, and it feels like JR's trying to create a narrative. Half the quote in erwin's post is him qualifying his comments. Why would he need to do that?

I think that the gist of what Jordan's saying is that he and Petrucci always wrote the melodies and riffs and such, but because the entire band or, at least, Portnoy, always got a writing credit, fans have assumed this whole time that Portnoy was an equal contributor in that regard, when in reality, he may have helped with that stuff, but his main role was more in the editing and production departments.

So, in other words, up until now, if you asked me to picture Dream Theater writing a song, I might have pictured everyone tossing ideas around and a song eventually being made. It seems to me like Jordan is saying that, in reality, the more accurate picture would be him and Petrucci going back and forth with Portnoy chiming in from time to time.

I don't think this is necessarily a contradiction, as I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that Portnoy was a big time composer. Whenever anyone referenced his control, I always took it to be in reference to his production decisions (visions for albums, editing, etc.), but could be wrong.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

ADTOE is pretty good too, though the drumming sucks.

Funny you think this, given that some Portnoy fanboys think that MP wrote the drums for this album before he left lol

Also, ADTOE is the most Portnoy-ish album out of the 3 Mangini era albums.

'Portnoy-ish' ? I really don't know what means. Do you mean that Dream Theater's albums from WDADU-BC&SL are Portnoy-ish because he led most of the arranging and overall direction? That doesn't make much sense. I think Dream Theater's albums have always been a team effort, with ideas being brought to the table by different members as a collaboration (at least till Black Clouds) . And it has been made clear that JP wrote basic drum tracks for ADTOE, and Mangini used them for direction when recording. Mangini fanboys fail to see the lack of inventiveness on this album for reasons that elude me.

By Portnoy-ish I mean that to me, the drums written for this record (by Petrucci, of course) sound like something Portnoy would have done, of course enhanced by his obvious natural input as a performer and drummer. If I listened to ADTOE back then without knowing that Portnoy left the band, I wouldn't probably have even noticed something was different in the line-up; but hey, that's just me. If it's the complete opposite for you it's fine.

It's nice you hold Portnoy in such a high standard (as a lot of posters here do, including myself), but I get an overall "DT with Portnoy was the best band ever thanks to him" vibe from your posting and that makes discussion less engaging. With my 'Portnoy fanboy' comment, I tried to say that I find kinda funny that a FEW of the Portnoy loyalists that quit DT all-together after his departure back in 2010 (or that have continued to criticise the band during these past 6 years) insist that ADTOE is a 'somewhat' nice record because Portnoy had all the parts written before his departure and Mangini just stepped into his shoes and played his parts. I've heard that from more than one person and I don't even know where to begin to tell them they're wrong lol. Your 'Mangini fanboy' concept feels really awkward and out of place, given that he has nowhere the fanbase Portnoy has. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[jammindude]

Even though Octavarium is my absolute #1 Dream Theater album of all time...there can be no question here.   As a run, the MM albums are far better.

There is such a HUGE drop off after 8V.   They literally went from their all time masterpiece to their all time worst album in a single album.   I honestly cannot think of a bigger quality dropoff in the history of music.    And BCSL was only just barely a slight improvement over SC...which was just a disaster by DT standards, but is actually an OK album in the world of prog rock. 

All the MM albums, while never achieving the heights of 8V, are at least all very strong albums.  And TA is their best album since 8V, and possibly a top 5 DT album. 

Mangini albums all the way.

[bosk1]

Which I.... guess is fine....? Like, I don't disagree with any of what you're saying, in terms of JR's thought process and how music credits are often handed out. I'm willing to buy that JP and JR are the only credited songwriters on TA because they wrote the songs and then sent them to MM and JM to write the drum and bass parts.

What strikes me about what JR said is this: Virtually every interview and piece of writing about the band produced while MP was in it talked about how he, JP, and JR were the three primary influences on the record. Including Lifting Shadows, in which Paul Northfield refers to Rudess's role in the band as like a hired gun. Then MP leaves, and JR was very clear in multiple interviews that he felt MP's control over the band had become too much. And now he's saying that him and JP are the primary composers and have been for some time. The contradiction is impossible not to notice, and it feels like JR's trying to create a narrative. Half the quote in erwin's post is him qualifying his comments. Why would he need to do that?

I think that the gist of what Jordan's saying is that he and Petrucci always wrote the melodies and riffs and such, but because the entire band or, at least, Portnoy, always got a writing credit, fans have assumed this whole time that Portnoy was an equal contributor in that regard, when in reality, he may have helped with that stuff, but his main role was more in the editing and production departments.

So, in other words, up until now, if you asked me to picture Dream Theater writing a song, I might have pictured everyone tossing ideas around and a song eventually being made. It seems to me like Jordan is saying that, in reality, the more accurate picture would be him and Petrucci going back and forth with Portnoy chiming in from time to time.

I don't think this is necessarily a contradiction, as I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that Portnoy was a big time composer. Whenever anyone referenced his control, I always took it to be in reference to his production decisions (visions for albums, editing, etc.), but could be wrong.

I think you are pretty dead-on.  After the show last week, I talked to JP a bit about the writing of The Astonishing and how it was different, and while he did not directly discuss writing in the MP era, he made contrasts with the writing sessions for The Astonishing that pretty directly supported what you just said. 

As always, I would caution people about reading too much into any bandmembers' comments about the deep inner workings of the band.  We tend to overanalyze because that's what we do.  But in doing so, it is easy to put words into people's mouths, or to go too far and form a picture in our own minds that is not accurate.

[darkshade]

There is such a HUGE drop off after 8V.   They literally went from their all time masterpiece to their all time worst album in a single album.   I honestly cannot think of a bigger quality dropoff in the history of music. 

Having gone through DT's discography the last week or so, and being away from their music for some time, it's not so much a drop off but more of a change in approach to creating the music. SC and BC&SL gets labeled as the "Portnoy era" albums, as the fans speculate this is when MP had the most control of the band. To me, SC is still inventive, experimental (experiments don't always work), and full of energy; but to me, the drop off is at BC&SL, deceivingly so. This is the album where the band sounds tired, as I think a lot of reasons for fans considering Black Clouds as the better of the two Portnoy albums is beause there was more major chord stuff returning to their sound. But as a whole, the band sounded either tired, going through the motions, what have you. You can hear it. Well, not JP, he slays on BC&SL like I've never heard before or since. Not sure what my point was as I'm listening to DT12 while typing, and this might be the first time I've actually enjoyed this album.

I think I was trying to say that though I consider SC or DT12 in the lower tier of DT albums, it's still DT. They put on a higher quality performance than 60% or more of other music.

[Madman Shepherd]

So you're accusing Jordan of trying too hard to take credit?  I can think of someone who has tried pretty damn hard to take credit but it isn't Jordan or John.

Why else would JR say what he said? 

Because he was answering a question honestly. I don't think he was trying too hard to take credit. 

While Mike may have played a big role in the arrangements of the songs, so did Jordan and John.  To call Mike the main arranger is like saying all Jordan and John can do is come up with random riffs and they need someone to piece them together.  That is simply not true.

And I didn't say that.

Didn't say you did but it is a common belief which doesn't have any factual basis which is why I brought it up. 

They all arranged the music, including Mike. Mike had a strong voice in the creative process but most people think of a song writer as someone that is coming up with the actual music which Mike rarely did other than vocal melodies for is share of songs.  This isn't to say he shouldn't receive songwriting credit.  Vocal melodies are a very important part of the songwriting process.

You could get super granular with the kinds of credits people deserve and don't deserve. Should MP be a credited arranger? Producer? Writer? Additional material? It's hard to say since no one was there. But we can reasonably believe he was very involved with and very controlling of the process of jamming on the music and giving input to where it should go. Even if he wasn't creating the melodies himself, he wasn't just watching them write music and then giving his opinion. He was playing drums and giving input with the rest of the band while figuring out the songs. I don't know how that isn't writing music, unless you define the term super specifically.

But if arrangement was so important, should Kevin Shirley not take songwriting credits on Falling Into Infinity?  His fingerprints were all over that one.

As far as we know, Shirley wasn't involved with the songwriting process. But he is the producer on the album for a reason.

Kevin Shirley edited those arrangements heavily hence my referencing him.  If we are to give an editor credit, his heavy hand as the producer of FII would indicate that some people would need to include him as a songwriter with at least some of the same reverence given to MP