Mangini's 5th Anniversary

[rumborak]

Well, DT management did some shifty stuff apparently, essentially breaking the terms of the signed agreement. I can't fault Marco for being miffed.

[Sycsa]

Well, DT management did some shifty stuff apparently, essentially breaking the terms of the signed agreement. I can't fault Marco for being miffed.

I don't buy that. Maybe there was a verbal agreement DT management broke, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't break a signed one. I'll even go one step beyond: Marco probably signed some paper about being in the doc, then, when he realized the 'reality show format' wasn't his cup of tea, asked if he can opt out of it and got denied. They all had to sign confidentiality agreements about not spilling the beans on the new drummer's identity, probably within the framework of a single, uniform contract. I doubt they drafted up a different contract just for Marco.

Edit: I looked up Marco's comment, he's talking about an e-mail, which is still far out from a signed contract.

I btw have an email where they promised me to not use the video if I don't want to. Well, they lied:-). But thanks for your kind words.
For the entire filming I received $500, broken promises about the release and collaborations on my new CD. And someone calling me and complaining he heard I was telling people in advance who the new drummer is. And on top of it I never got even send a copy. So FU DT, I'm sorry:-)

[rumborak]

I've had this discussion a million times before, I'll say this, I find the defending of DT in this case misplaced. If Marco was told and has an email promising him to not use the video, while it may not be a legal breach when they used it, it's still not a nice move. Again, Marco had every right to voice his discontent about the situation. I find it odd how people seem to say "yeah, they didn't stick to what they said they would. They're DT, so it's cool!"
He also clearly directed his criticism towards DT management, as is he is clearly on good terms with DT themselves. I frankly feel no moral obligation towards defending RoadRunner.

[Sycsa]

I've had this discussion a million times before, I'll say this, I find the defending of DT in this case misplaced. If Marco was told and has an email promising him to not use the video, while it may not be a legal breach when they used it, it's still not a nice move. Again, Marco had every right to voice his discontent about the situation. I find it odd how people seem to say "yeah, they didn't stick to what they said they would. They're DT, so it's cool!"
He also clearly directed his criticism towards DT management, as is he is clearly on good terms with DT themselves. I frankly feel no moral obligation towards defending RoadRunner.

Yeah, I'm having an uncanny strange deja-vu as well. I'm not defending or condoning RR's alleged actions by any means, but I didn't like the way Marco handled it either, it was unprofessional, almost Portnoy-esque (also, talking about unfulfilled promises regarding collaboration seems more a stab at DT themselves than the managment, but I digress). Also, when I said that Marco handled it tactlessly, I was rather thinking about some of the interviews he gave after the auditions, than this particular incident.

[Enigmachine]

He also clearly directed his criticism towards DT management, as is he is clearly on good terms with DT themselves. I frankly feel no moral obligation towards defending RoadRunner.

He said 'FU DT' though.

[rumborak]

Definitely not defending that, yeah. Seems to have been said in the heat of the moment though, given the later LMR release he can't have burned those bridges.

[bosk1]

I never really understood where he was coming from on that.  I mean, he signed a contract saying it was going to be put out there in a documentary.  And even if he somehow missed all that, the entire thing was filmed.  He was interviewed, which was also filmed.  Presumably, there were multiple takes of certain things so that they could get it filmed correctly.  The band is talking to him about how it is an audition documentary.  And someone supposedly emails him and says it is not going to be released?  That doesn't make sense to me.

[Enigmachine]

Seems to have been said in the heat of the moment though, given the later LMR release he can't have burned those bridges.

I can see how that would be the case.

[KevShmev]

I never really understood where he was coming from on that.  I mean, he signed a contract saying it was going to be put out there in a documentary.  And even if he somehow missed all that, the entire thing was filmed.  He was interviewed, which was also filmed.  Presumably, there were multiple takes of certain things so that they could get it filmed correctly.  The band is talking to him about how it is an audition documentary.  And someone supposedly emails him and says it is not going to be released?  That doesn't make sense to me.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, corporations (which you could say DT's management is) are not above talking out both sides of their mouth, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was spoon fed completely different stories, one by the band and another by management. Probably another case of the little people (in this case, the band) having mostly good intentions, that are then shot to shit by the full of shit higher-ups (management).  That's life.

[erwinrafael]

I find statements that Mangini did not bring anything new to the table a bit odd. Mangini brought a new drumming philosophy to DT, which is melodic orchestration. Take Dystopian Overture for example. The drums and cymbals are played melodically, not just rhythmically, if one pays attention to the tones of the toms and the cymbals. It really goes up and down the scale melodically. That drumming philosophy of complementing and integrating with the other instruments underlie his playing, not the technical stuff. The technical stuff is deployed only if it fits the orchestration, like the use of polyrhythns in The Walking Shadow and Illumination Theory, or the use of speed in The Enemy Inside and Moment of Betrayal. There really are less air drummable moments for MM because the drumming is focused on orchestration, not on fills.

Another thing MM brought new to the table, as Jordan said, is that he helps in thinking how to subdivide sections. In the Dream Theater album, there are lots of sections where the different members are playing seemingly different things at the same time but ends up integrating in the end. You can hear such sections in Enigma Machine, Illumination Theory, Surrender to Reason and Behind the Veil.

[rumborak]

Probably another case of the little people (in this case, the band) having mostly good intentions, that are then shot to shit by the full of shit higher-ups (management).  That's life.

That's I think exactly what it is. DT themselves did the communications to the drummers, but DT management had very different priorities.

[Enigmachine]

I find statements that Mangini did not bring anything new to the table a bit odd. Mangini brought a new drumming philosophy to DT, which is melodic orchestration. Take Dystopian Overture for example. The drums and cymbals are played melodically, not just rhythmically, if one pays attention to the tones of the toms and the cymbals. It really goes up and down the scale melodically. That drumming philosophy of complementing and integrating with the other instruments underlie his playing, not the technical stuff. The technical stuff is deployed only if it fits the orchestration, like the use of polyrhythns in The Walking Shadow and Illumination Theory, or the use of speed in The Enemy Inside and Moment of Betrayal. There really are less air drummable moments for MM because the drumming is focused on orchestration, not on fills.

Another thing MM brought new to the table, as Jordan said, is that he helps in thinking how to subdivide sections. In the Dream Theater album, there are lots of sections where the different members are playing seemingly different things at the same time but ends up integrating in the end. You can hear such sections in Enigma Machine, Illumination Theory, Surrender to Reason and Behind the Veil.

Agreed completely. He has got a very unique style.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I find statements that Mangini did not bring anything new to the table a bit odd. Mangini brought a new drumming philosophy to DT, which is melodic orchestration. Take Dystopian Overture for example. The drums and cymbals are played melodically, not just rhythmically, if one pays attention to the tones of the toms and the cymbals. It really goes up and down the scale melodically. That drumming philosophy of complementing and integrating with the other instruments underlie his playing, not the technical stuff. The technical stuff is deployed only if it fits the orchestration, like the use of polyrhythns in The Walking Shadow and Illumination Theory, or the use of speed in The Enemy Inside and Moment of Betrayal. There really are less air drummable moments for MM because the drumming is focused on orchestration, not on fills.

Another thing MM brought new to the table, as Jordan said, is that he helps in thinking how to subdivide sections. In the Dream Theater album, there are lots of sections where the different members are playing seemingly different things at the same time but ends up integrating in the end. You can hear such sections in Enigma Machine, Illumination Theory, Surrender to Reason and Behind the Veil.

Really nice post. I think Mangini has brought his own style to the band, both personally and musically. To me, he was a great fit.

[TAC]

Great post Erwin!

[bosk1]

I find statements that Mangini did not bring anything new to the table a bit odd. Mangini brought a new drumming philosophy to DT, which is melodic orchestration. Take Dystopian Overture for example. The drums and cymbals are played melodically, not just rhythmically, if one pays attention to the tones of the toms and the cymbals. It really goes up and down the scale melodically. That drumming philosophy of complementing and integrating with the other instruments underlie his playing, not the technical stuff. The technical stuff is deployed only if it fits the orchestration, like the use of polyrhythns in The Walking Shadow and Illumination Theory, or the use of speed in The Enemy Inside and Moment of Betrayal. There really are less air drummable moments for MM because the drumming is focused on orchestration, not on fills.

Another thing MM brought new to the table, as Jordan said, is that he helps in thinking how to subdivide sections. In the Dream Theater album, there are lots of sections where the different members are playing seemingly different things at the same time but ends up integrating in the end. You can hear such sections in Enigma Machine, Illumination Theory, Surrender to Reason and Behind the Veil.

Really nice post. I think Mangini has brought his own style to the band, both personally and musically. To me, he was a great fit.

^I agree.  And I find it easy to both really like and appreciate the new material he plays on while simultaneously appreciating and missing what Portoy brought to the table as well. 

[King Postwhore]

I wonder if they recorded him with a more organic sound, we would appreciate the nuances more?  He does so many little things that we could miss.

[rumborak]

I wonder if they recorded him with a more organic sound, we would appreciate the nuances more?  He does so many little things that we could miss.

I still don't get why he doesn't do drumming videos like MP did. I mean, he is clearly proud of many of his parts, but at this point I would think he realizes that many of those things just aren't perceived by the average listener. So, why not just grab a web cam and play along to the album?

[BlobVanDam]

I wonder if they recorded him with a more organic sound, we would appreciate the nuances more?  He does so many little things that we could miss.

I still don't get why he doesn't do drumming videos like MP did. I mean, he is clearly proud of many of his parts, but at this point I would think he realizes that many of those things just aren't perceived by the average listener. So, why not just grab a web cam and play along to the album?

He could have done it while practicing for the tour, without using up much extra free time.

[mikeyd23]

One of the most brilliant MP moves are his drumming DVDs that go with each album. He literally sets up a couple cameras to tape while he is recording his parts, gets the final audio and drum only audio which is being captured anyway and after some quick editing he has himself a product that he can sell. Genius. 

MM should do something similar, would be cool to see.

[emtee]

I would enjoy seeing a detailed making-of drum video from MM. Who knows, maybe the band doesn't want any more individual
products released that aren't band related. I don't know how the revenue from MP's drum cam vids were handled. If it was shared
or just went into MP's account.

[King Postwhore]

I wonder if they recorded him with a more organic sound, we would appreciate the nuances more?  He does so many little things that we could miss.

I still don't get why he doesn't do drumming videos like MP did. I mean, he is clearly proud of many of his parts, but at this point I would think he realizes that many of those things just aren't perceived by the average listener. So, why not just grab a web cam and play along to the album?

Since he was a professor at Berkeley I figured it's right up his alley to speak about exactly what he was playing. 

[goo-goo]

I would enjoy seeing a detailed making-of drum video from MM. Who knows, maybe the band doesn't want any more individual
products released that aren't band related. I don't know how the revenue from MP's drum cam vids were handled. If it was shared
or just went into MP's account.

He released a drum video called The Grid. He does play some ADTOE songs. Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRGY8Xy24z0

EDIT: I guess you meant a drum cam vid like MP releases.

[erwinrafael]

Update. Mangini is writing songs. Looks like we might have "music by Mike Mangini" in the next album. 

From his FB:

MM: My day off was strictly on setting up a new Pro Tools Master scheme with some new software I don't know how to use yet to allow for some way-long-over-due song writing and to take oodles of riffs off some old drives when I get home. I have to turn in a full-fledged engineer to finally get done what I think would be great for me - a collection of well done songs. I think the drumming will take 1 20th of the time as the rest of it all !!

I'll probably use my hotel time for the rest of the year to record anything from single riffs, to partial songs to full ones after I get a consistent song writing protocol. I want to get it right from the start so I can play drums to it no matter what I end up using it for. That may take the rest of this tour as I usually get sleep #1 and am busy with DT related things before shows.

Question: Writing some stuff for DT or just your own stuff or both? just curious.

MM: BOTH

[Logain Ablar]

Update. Mangini is writing songs. Looks like we might have "music by Mike Mangini" in the next album. 

From his FB:

MM: My day off was strictly on setting up a new Pro Tools Master scheme with some new software I don't know how to use yet to allow for some way-long-over-due song writing and to take oodles of riffs off some old drives when I get home. I have to turn in a full-fledged engineer to finally get done what I think would be great for me - a collection of well done songs. I think the drumming will take 1 20th of the time as the rest of it all !!

I'll probably use my hotel time for the rest of the year to record anything from single riffs, to partial songs to full ones after I get a consistent song writing protocol. I want to get it right from the start so I can play drums to it no matter what I end up using it for. That may take the rest of this tour as I usually get sleep #1 and am busy with DT related things before shows.

Question: Writing some stuff for DT or just your own stuff or both? just curious.

MM: BOTH

Wondering what he means by "riffs" - is this drum riffs, or does he play some other instrument? Either way, it would be cool to hear some MM contributions on the next album.

I wonder if they recorded him with a more organic sound, we would appreciate the nuances more?  He does so many little things that we could miss.

I 100% agree with this, especially after seeing him live. It would be cool if they could nail the drum production in the next one, to bring out the little details. He sounds great on JLB's Elements of Persuasion, so maybe something more in that direction.

[IdoSC]

It would be cool to be able to look into different possible realities, one where different drummers got the job.

It would be neat to see what would have happened in the past 5 years if Minneman, or Donati or my favorite, Lang had gotten the job, just to see.

Hi there Abed from Community!

Anyways I was really burned out by SC and BCSL when MP decided to quit, and his drum parts (and setlists) in particular began to feel very stale, so I was kind of worried but also excited when DT entered that new era. They did not disappoint. To me the past 3 albums were return to form and they're probably all in my top 5 or 6 albums of the band. I know MM didn't have much to do with the writing on these, but for the first time in a long time I got to listen to DT and think "holy crap that drum part" in particular moments, and the overall music feels much more down my alley and "classic DT"-ish mixed with new ideas (IMO).

[bosk1]

To me the past 3 albums were return to form and they're probably all in my top 5 or 6 albums of the band. I know MM didn't have much to do with the writing on these, but for the first time in a long time I got to listen to DT and think "holy crap that drum part" in particular moments, and the overall music feels much more down my alley and "classic DT"-ish mixed with new ideas (IMO).

He did not write melodies and music, but he did write most of his drum parts.  I was talking to JP last night about the writing for The Astonishing, and even though he and Jordan wrote all of the melodies and music, when he handed it off to MM, all they had for drums on the demos was a basic click just to keep time, and MM wrote ALL of the drum parts.  JP said probably a good 95% of the drumming was what MM came up with completely on his own, and just a few parts here and there where JP would suggest little changes if he had a particular feel in mind for a certain part.  So just wanted to clarify that about the writing.  Hope that helps.

[IdoSC]

To me the past 3 albums were return to form and they're probably all in my top 5 or 6 albums of the band. I know MM didn't have much to do with the writing on these, but for the first time in a long time I got to listen to DT and think "holy crap that drum part" in particular moments, and the overall music feels much more down my alley and "classic DT"-ish mixed with new ideas (IMO).

He did not write melodies and music, but he did write most of his drum parts.  I was talking to JP last night about the writing for The Astonishing, and even though he and Jordan wrote all of the melodies and music, when he handed it off to MM, all they had for drums on the demos was a basic click just to keep time, and MM wrote ALL of the drum parts.  JP said probably a good 95% of the drumming was what MM came up with completely on his own, and just a few parts here and there where JP would suggest little changes if he had a particular feel in mind for a certain part.  So just wanted to clarify that about the writing.  Hope that helps.

Just to be clear I made 2 separate statements that were apparently misinterpreted as one, and I'm sorry for that:

1. The last 3 albums were a return to form IMO, even though MM didn't really influence the composition of the song ***as a whole*** (not just the drum parts in particular).

2. For the first time in a while I was surprised by DT's drum parts.

I know MM writes or at least collaborates on his own parts, but I was talking about the song as a whole in point 1, which is not related to point 2.

[bosk1]

Oh, no worries.  I was just sharing the information I had, that's all.

[hefdaddy42]

Update. Mangini is writing songs. Looks like we might have "music by Mike Mangini" in the next album. 

From his FB:

MM: My day off was strictly on setting up a new Pro Tools Master scheme with some new software I don't know how to use yet to allow for some way-long-over-due song writing and to take oodles of riffs off some old drives when I get home. I have to turn in a full-fledged engineer to finally get done what I think would be great for me - a collection of well done songs. I think the drumming will take 1 20th of the time as the rest of it all !!

I'll probably use my hotel time for the rest of the year to record anything from single riffs, to partial songs to full ones after I get a consistent song writing protocol. I want to get it right from the start so I can play drums to it no matter what I end up using it for. That may take the rest of this tour as I usually get sleep #1 and am busy with DT related things before shows.

Question: Writing some stuff for DT or just your own stuff or both? just curious.

MM: BOTH

Nice!  Can't wait to hear what comes from this!

[rumborak]

Has MM done any solo stuff? The Wiki page doesn't look like it.

[wolven74]

I remember thinking after watching Mangini's audition that it was fixed. They'd already chosen him as their drummer and were just doing the rest of the auditions as a courtesy to the other drummers. It felt like they were saying "we asked them to come out, paid for them to be here. We need to let them play."

There are a couple reasons I say this. 1. Mangini's audition video is the only one where we see him getting a picture with the band. The others could have done the same, but not filmed it. Or, they didn't get the chance because the band didn't feel the same vibe... And 2. The cutaway interview shots of Mangini were in front of his rehearsal kit, with the octobons placed above the rack toms. It was a huge kit, I could tell that before he released photos revealing the DT kit. The only reason he'd need to design a kit like that would be after he knew he'd been hired.

The only other drummer I thought had a chance was Marco. The part that killed it for me was his sound. The drums were too thin. They didn't have the meaty sound that worked with the rest of DT. I think he had the chops and he had the best attitude after Mangini. It just didn't sound right to me.

All that being said, I find it hard to believe it's been 5 years. It feels like the auditions were only a few weeks ago. Do I miss Portnoy? Sure, to some extent. I miss his goofy videos when on tour, and I miss his interaction with the fans, but Mangini is the best thing to happen to DT since Jordan joined. It's been only 5 years, but I look forward to as many more as DT can produce music.   

[Madman Shepherd]

If you check out any interviews around the time he was hired, Mangini had said he was eager to join a band full time.  He had just finished building his kit in his studio and got kind of depressed that he had nowhere to play it publicly.  When the DT audition came along, he was enthused and hopeful and I think he said he was getting a little tired of teaching. 

Thats why he kept telling them that getting the job wouldn't just be a gig.  He would be all in. 

[ReaPsTA]

I remember thinking after watching Mangini's audition that it was fixed.

Not fixed, but Mangini was the first up and made a huge impression. Derek Roddy said in some interview that, when he was talking to JP before his audition, JP told him that the first guy who auditioned made a huge impression and they weren't sure realistically how that would be topped.

[bosk1]

I would go farther and say that I think they were leaning toward Mangini beforehand as well.  "Fixed?"  No.  "Predisposed?"  Personally, I think so.  But that's just an educated guess on my part.  I haven't asked anyone about it, and I don't intend to.

[Kotowboy]

If they were going to ask Mangini all along - i can totally see saying they had to make a documentary around it.

They even focused on the other drummers mistakes. They didn't show Mangini having any trouble at all.


Which reminded me of when they auditioned Rob Trujillo in Some Kind Of Monster - all the other bass players shots were them not sounding anywhere near as good or looking out of their depth

and Rob was highlighted as just far and above all of them and was featured for a lot longer.