Author Topic: Transgender people and bathrooms  (Read 8892 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2016, 09:04:53 AM »
Yeah, to me, that seems like a really strange reach to connect two things that aren't connected at all.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2016, 09:15:48 AM »
I really dont understand the rationale of walking around target with a rifle or shotgun.  Just cause it's called target does not mean it is meant for a shooting target (bad joke).

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2016, 09:18:01 AM »
There is no point, aside from "the 2nd amendment says I can, so I will, consequences and inconveniences be damned".

Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2016, 09:36:38 AM »


This dude's got style. I like this guy.

I agree that Chino's argument is a reach. What isn't a reach is that both things are going to cause some people to be uncomfortable. Most of these folks are simply trying to be seen with their long guns to get a reaction. Even down here they'd make a lot of people uncomfortable.  Aside from the mind-numbingly stupid "but they might be pedophiles!" argument, I've seen plenty of people object to the trans bathroom thing on the grounds that it'll make others similarly uncomfortable. "What about a woman that's been raped having to share a bathroom with a man!!!" Is she going to feel less traumatized by Panama Jack here with his vintage Colt walking behind her in the parking lot?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2016, 10:01:55 AM »

Following that same logic, if the safety of your loved ones is the most important, why are they not making the argument that someone who's not a good guy with a gun could stroll around like the people pictured above, only to unexpectedly open fire on a large group of people? That's just as likely to happen as a guy pretending to be a girl in order to gain access to the women's bathroom, no?

It just seems a little ironic, and maybe even hypocritical to me, that's all. Because there is a possibility of a bathroom rape, you (not you personally) immediately shut down anything that could help transgender people out by defaulting to the most horrific scenario you can think of. Why is the same thought process not applied to open carry?

I got your point, but it's not really apples and oranges.  There are no background checks to use a bathroom.  There is no licensing required to use a bathroom.  There is no waiting period to use a bathroom.   

I get it - all conservatives are hyper-religious, gun-toting bigots, and all liberals are tree-hugging, pop-smoking commies - but these are a coincidental occurrence, not a cause and effect one.   Yeah, there might be one element in common - abuse of the circumstance - but after that, it really isn't equitable.

And then there's the conservative that doesn't want to play ball.  I'm a pro-2nd Amendment person that WOULD have background checks, and that WOULD hold gun owners accountable (I would have charged Nancy Lanza - had she lived - as if she pulled the trigger herself), and doesn't really care who uses what bathroom when, but I do have issue with the LGBT community in making a minor issue into a mountain in order to prove their point.  I can't help but continually wonder, "why are we still talking about this??"

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2016, 10:12:23 AM »
Yeah, I guess I didn't initially even see the connection Chino was trying to make since we do not even have open carry here, so I wasn't picking up on some of what he was saying.  But after the initial explanation, I stand by the comment that it really seems like a reach.  But anyhow, that doesn't really do anything to actually address anything we are really discussing in connection with the main topic, so I'll move on.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2016, 11:00:11 AM »
I guess my point is that it seems to have less to do with people's safety and more to do with the fact that people are just uncomfortable with the idea (Also, Target has been at the center of both the transgender and the gun debate). For whatever reason, they can't get past their mental block that some people wish they were the other sex. If that's your stance, fine, make your argument as such. But stirring up all this bullshit, creating unnecessary fears, and basically belittling a large group of people because you can't just say you're weirded out by something is super lame. 


Offline cramx3

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2016, 11:01:49 AM »
I guess my point is that it seems to have less to do with people's safety and more to do with the fact that people are just uncomfortable with the idea. For whatever reason, they can't get past their mental block that some people wish they were the other sex. If that's your stance, fine, make your argument as such. But stirring up all this bullshit, creating unnecessary fears, and basically belittling a large group of people because you can't just say you're weirded out by something is super lame.

Well, in the PC world we live in, publicly saying this is weird may be social suicide.

Offline pcs90

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2016, 12:41:41 PM »
I was going to start a thread on this, but I didn't know where I was going to go with it.

On one side of my brain, I say

It's very simple. If you have a penis you use the mens room. If you have a vagina you use the womens.

That rule seems pretty straightforward, and if you are transgender and offended or uncomfortable with it, I would say that we can't always change/enact laws to make everyone feel comfortable/happy. Because for every person you are going to make comfortable/happy, you are going to do the opposite to someone else. And that isn't how we should be making laws anyway.

Then the other part of my brain doesn't really give a crud which bathroom people use. Just get in, do your business, and get out. And we can all go about our lives. 
I was going to post something about this situation, but then I read this post and it is exactly the same way I think on this.
Some of the drama that is being created on both sides really is insane. I just stay out of these debates on facebook and elsewhere because from the ones I have read, they are a waste of time. It just turns into this "I'm right, you're wrong, don't agree with me then delete me" crap that is unfortunately becoming more and more common about a variety of issues.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2016, 01:03:22 PM »
Moving on for a bit... I am seeing a lot more stories about transgender kids, as young as 5. My kid is 5, and I can't really accept that someone that age recognizes that they don't identify with the gender that their anatomy represents. I see stories about how a boy doesn't want to play with race cars and dinosaurs, he'd rather play with My Little Pony and Hello Kitty. That shouldn't necessarily mean he identifies as a girl. I know we can place too much emphasis on how a kid should dress and play, but kids also like to explore and learn new things and find out what they enjoy.

Thoughts?
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2016, 01:06:31 PM »
I agree with you.  I can't see how a 5 year old understands sexual identity to make that decision.  I had sisters growing up, I used to play with their toys too (well usually ripping off the dolls heads or having barbie and ken 69, but still) and I can't see how that can be used to justify their identity.  But at the same time, what do you do if your 5 year old male parts child says, Dad I feel like a female?

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2016, 01:13:48 PM »
This is probably what Chris was talking about.


Mia is in the middle.


Jacob is on the right.


Mia and Jacob are the same person


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/transgender-kids/jacob-lives-life-transgender-child-n345296

I mean, if everything in the above story is factual, I think it's hard to deny that people can know from a young age how they want to act and what gender they identify with. I'm not sure why a two year old would lie about wanting to be referred to as a boy. I'm interested to see how the kid ends up and if he reverses his decision later in life.

Offline Rick

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2016, 01:34:34 PM »








Wait, is the USA actually like this? That's f-ing terrifying.

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2016, 01:40:56 PM »
*snip*
Wait, is the USA actually like this? That's f-ing terrifying.

Yeah, but it's cool. You're safe. There are no chicks with dicks in the bathroom.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2016, 01:41:47 PM »
 I don't see the problem with either of them, but that's for another discussion.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2016, 01:46:26 PM »


Wait, is the USA actually like this? That's f-ing terrifying.

No, it's not. Most of those pictures are from the same two groups of people and they were just out to get a rise out of people. Don't get me wrong, they're acting lawfully there. Very few people just choose to do such things. The only one you might really see down here is Panama Jack with the holstered pistol.

By the way, I live in Texas. We just made it legal to open carry at the beginning of the year, as PJ is doing in that picture. Number of people I've seen doing so in four months? One table of 3 people at a Mexican restaurant (and they actually looked pretty coppish to me). I haven't seen anybody walking down the street with a long gun in 20 years.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2016, 01:48:55 PM »
Mia and Jacob are the same person

And to me, "Jacob" is just Mia wanting short hair and to wear "boy" clothes. Which to my point, has as much to do with being a boy as playing with trucks and GI Joe does.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2016, 02:00:11 PM »
Mia and Jacob are the same person

And to me, "Jacob" is just Mia wanting short hair and to wear "boy" clothes. Which to my point, has as much to do with being a boy as playing with trucks and GI Joe does.
I'm not sure it's really possible to know what the best way to handle Mia is. If you're right, then Mia goes back to being Jacob and that's that. If not, then Mia avoids a great deal of the psychological baggage that he/she might have otherwise been saddled with. My hunch is that aside from the damage done by being turned into a political football, Mia is probably better off simply because the upside outweighs the potential negative.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2016, 02:18:40 PM »
Mia and Jacob are the same person

And to me, "Jacob" is just Mia wanting short hair and to wear "boy" clothes. Which to my point, has as much to do with being a boy as playing with trucks and GI Joe does.

And you can't possibly know that.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2016, 02:28:10 PM »
 When I was five, I wanted to be a bulldozer.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2016, 02:28:52 PM »
When I was five, I wanted to be a bulldozer.

So if I asked your wife, she wouldn't call you the bulldozer?

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2016, 02:35:08 PM »
 My point is, outside of the entire transgender issue, isn't there a reason why we don't allow children to make a life altering decisions at such a young age?  We don't allow any other completely life altering decisions at such a young age, why are we suddenly allowing this one which is arguably one of the biggest?
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2016, 03:14:12 PM »
Mia and Jacob are the same person

And to me, "Jacob" is just Mia wanting short hair and to wear "boy" clothes. Which to my point, has as much to do with being a boy as playing with trucks and GI Joe does.

And you can't possibly know that.

My point is that to a 5 year old, that is the basic understanding of what being a female entails. To augment JD's point, they are learning and developing, not fully knowing who or what they are, much less what they want to be.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2016, 03:20:47 PM »
I feel there are some real issues and that at a minimum, parents shouldn't be navigating these waters alone.  There should be professional help involved here, and these issues should not be taken lightly. 

Having said that, I don't see how a five year old can be trusted with this decision.  I have an eight-year-old step son, and I know that he is having an incredibly difficult time navigating the issue of divorce, and what it means to be a "father" and a "mother".  I don't feel that we are talking about a radically different situation.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2016, 03:27:48 PM »
At 5 years old, you hardly understand anything (in the big picture, not saying 5 year olds aren't capable of being smart) and more importly you don't have any real experience of facing the consequences of your decisions.  What is the impact as the kid hits puberty and no longer feels the same about the decision he/she made at the age of 5?  What is the impact now?

I will say, that article linked by Chino said those parents had professional help.  I am wondering what the professionals are actually saying about this and how they determine if it's a good idea because I can't see how we have any statistical evidence to show the impact of someone so young making such an important personal decision.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2016, 03:40:45 PM »
I believe that there were professionals involved, and the advise was to let the kid be what it wants to be. Not sure I see the harm in that. Are the ramifications worse now than what they would be if the kid were identity closeted?
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Offline vtgrad

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2016, 02:33:55 PM »


Wait, is the USA actually like this? That's f-ing terrifying.

No, it's not. Most of those pictures are from the same two groups of people and they were just out to get a rise out of people. Don't get me wrong, they're acting lawfully there. Very few people just choose to do such things. The only one you might really see down here is Panama Jack with the holstered pistol.

By the way, I live in Texas. We just made it legal to open carry at the beginning of the year, as PJ is doing in that picture. Number of people I've seen doing so in four months? One table of 3 people at a Mexican restaurant (and they actually looked pretty coppish to me). I haven't seen anybody walking down the street with a long gun in 20 years.

Living in an open carry state (VA), I probably see it once or twice a month.  As a concealed permit holder (and carrier) myself, I honestly see it as "I can therefore I will".  Sure it's legal... and if you're in a public establishment, and someone is bothered by it, you'll likely have to explain yourself to the owner of the establishment or maybe to an officer of the law.  My stance has always been if you want to carry, get a permit and conceal it.  Otherwise it looks more like a "f#ck you, I'll do it because I can" type of thing rather than a "wish to protect myself and my family" kind of thing.  In my view, they are simply drawing attention to themselves... it's self-serving.  I'm saying that as a person that carries a weapon everyday.

As a man south of the Mason-Dixon, who cares (transgender or not) where you lay a mondo duke?  The issue with a transgender person lies with that person... if that particular person feels and identifies in that manner, that is their decision; we all have free-will.  I think Coz said it best when he said "Does anybody really think that if someone wants to get in and watch or assault your wife or daughter that the little tiny sign that says "Women" is going to magically keep them out like some sort of male-repellent force field and that if we suddenly allow transgenders to use different bathrooms that suddenly this hidden force-field will no longer exist?  This law aside, and whether trans-gendered people can use different bathrooms or not, if someone wants to commit a crime, they're going to do it anyway."  This bathroom debate is a non-issue I think (on both sides).

As a nation, I think maybe we're trying to tell legislate for too many people what they should or shouldn't do.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2016, 03:05:27 PM »
Living in an open carry state (VA), I probably see it once or twice a month.  As a concealed permit holder (and carrier) myself, I honestly see it as "I can therefore I will".  Sure it's legal... and if you're in a public establishment, and someone is bothered by it, you'll likely have to explain yourself to the owner of the establishment or maybe to an officer of the law.  My stance has always been if you want to carry, get a permit and conceal it.  Otherwise it looks more like a "f#ck you, I'll do it because I can" type of thing rather than a "wish to protect myself and my family" kind of thing.  In my view, they are simply drawing attention to themselves... it's self-serving.  I'm saying that as a person that carries a weapon everyday.

As a man south of the Mason-Dixon, who cares (transgender or not) where you lay a mondo duke?  The issue with a transgender person lies with that person... if that particular person feels and identifies in that manner, that is their decision; we all have free-will.  I think Coz said it best when he said "Does anybody really think that if someone wants to get in and watch or assault your wife or daughter that the little tiny sign that says "Women" is going to magically keep them out like some sort of male-repellent force field and that if we suddenly allow transgenders to use different bathrooms that suddenly this hidden force-field will no longer exist?  This law aside, and whether trans-gendered people can use different bathrooms or not, if someone wants to commit a crime, they're going to do it anyway."  This bathroom debate is a non-issue I think (on both sides).

As a nation, I think maybe we're trying to tell legislate for too many people what they should or shouldn't do.

This might be controversial, but really, the way you put it, there is no difference between the transgender fight for bathrooms and the open carry.  "I can so I will".   The trans argument really isn't "what bathroom to use", it's more "what bathroom can I advertise I'm using".   Not suggesting that's wrong, but I would imagine, then, that those that support the one should support the other, and I don't, in my gut, feel that is the case.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2016, 03:27:10 PM »
Living in an open carry state (VA), I probably see it once or twice a month.  As a concealed permit holder (and carrier) myself, I honestly see it as "I can therefore I will".  Sure it's legal... and if you're in a public establishment, and someone is bothered by it, you'll likely have to explain yourself to the owner of the establishment or maybe to an officer of the law.  My stance has always been if you want to carry, get a permit and conceal it.  Otherwise it looks more like a "f#ck you, I'll do it because I can" type of thing rather than a "wish to protect myself and my family" kind of thing.  In my view, they are simply drawing attention to themselves... it's self-serving.  I'm saying that as a person that carries a weapon everyday.

As a man south of the Mason-Dixon, who cares (transgender or not) where you lay a mondo duke?  The issue with a transgender person lies with that person... if that particular person feels and identifies in that manner, that is their decision; we all have free-will.  I think Coz said it best when he said "Does anybody really think that if someone wants to get in and watch or assault your wife or daughter that the little tiny sign that says "Women" is going to magically keep them out like some sort of male-repellent force field and that if we suddenly allow transgenders to use different bathrooms that suddenly this hidden force-field will no longer exist?  This law aside, and whether trans-gendered people can use different bathrooms or not, if someone wants to commit a crime, they're going to do it anyway."  This bathroom debate is a non-issue I think (on both sides).

As a nation, I think maybe we're trying to tell legislate for too many people what they should or shouldn't do.

This might be controversial, but really, the way you put it, there is no difference between the transgender fight for bathrooms and the open carry.  "I can so I will".   The trans argument really isn't "what bathroom to use", it's more "what bathroom can I advertise I'm using".   Not suggesting that's wrong, but I would imagine, then, that those that support the one should support the other, and I don't, in my gut, feel that is the case.

That is my point, summarized quite well; also showing that the line Chino was drawing with that comparison was fairly strong.  All the hub-bub is drawing attention to the trans bathroom fight, when I would wager that most trans-persons don't want anyone to know that they're transitioning and wish to use the bathroom they identify with.

The open carry argument is drawing attention to the open carry movement (if you want to call it that); when, at least in my situation, I don't want anyone to know I'm packing heat.

The transgender bathroom debate is a wonderful argument for concealed carry (bad joke).

It's arguing for the sake of arguing... on both sides. 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2016, 01:42:19 AM »
Here's my take on the issue since it's was a hot topic in Houston a few month back when they were voting on a prop for it.
For those who don't know me; I kinda have liberal views on most issues and I lean left in general, I've always loathed the very definition of conservatism. I'm for gay marriage and I'm pro-choice because I believe it's none of my business to tell others how to live their lives, not because I believe these things are great. I think if it doesn't effect me or my life style or family then I shouldn't even have a say in it.
But on this transsexual bathroom issue I find myself completely on the side of conservatives, it's such a dumb losing battle for liberals to bring to the political field, I think transsexuals could have just started using women's bathrooms without talking about it if their transformation is decent enough to not have them recognized and if they're still recognizable as men then it's their own fault, how much do you fuckin want society to bend backward to solve your ridiculous bathroom dilemma? If your appearance still gives away that you're a man; you'd be lying if you tell me you don't get how that would make women uncomfortable with you in the bathroom, lying, period.
In my mind our social contract is based on a mutual you-can-be-or-do-what-you-want-as-long-as-you-don't-get-in-my-personal-space, I think you are a man, I don't deny you your right to identify as a woman and I would even address to you as one but you can't deny me my right to still think of you as a man, that's my personal space. And if I believe you're a man; it's only normal that I'd be weirded out by the thought of you in the women's bathroom, not because of all these silly "he could be a pedophile or a rapist" talking points, how often is that gonna be the case? But simply because I believe you are a man.
That's my 2, before this got big outside Texas; it was a bit of a funny topic to me, when I first heard of it on the news I told my friend at work that "of course they wanna use the women's bathroom! who doesn't?! It's so radically cleaner then the men's! If I can't do it then they can't".
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2016, 08:06:41 AM »
Was it the liberals who brought it into the legal arena? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it seems it didn't become a legal issue until places started passing laws preventing people from using the other team's bathrooms.

By and large I agree with you, though. Mostly as a matter of courtesy, really. I don't like making people feel uncomfortable.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2016, 08:52:23 AM »
I would say that "I don't understand that" is not sufficient reason to legislate against anything.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2016, 09:07:22 AM »
I would say that "I don't understand that" is not sufficient reason to legislate against anything.
Seems to be a lot of that going around nowadays. Aren't you a cigar smoker?  :lol
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2016, 09:55:33 AM »
Mostly as a matter of courtesy, really. I don't like making people feel uncomfortable.

That's really all there is to it, but it sounds like it needs to be ridiculously broken down into why it's uncomfortable.

Was it the liberals who brought it into the legal arena? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it seems it didn't become a legal issue until places started passing laws preventing people from using the other team's bathrooms.

Honestly I automatically made the assumption it was liberals who brought the issue out since that's usually the way it goes with civil rights type of cases, but you're right the laws barring transsexuals are the reason this came up.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2016, 10:21:39 AM »
I think it is both sides, honestly.  Hard to debate who "started it," but I see it from both sides.  As with most issues, rather than try to work out a solution that, while not perfect, works decently for everyone, it just turns into a pissing contest where you have "conservatives" passing laws they should know will make things worse just because "we'll show 'em!," "liberals" trying to politicize the issue on their side, and a vocal minority of the transgender population (note that I pointed out that it is a minority) visibly placing their right to be "comfortable" at the forefront of the debate.  IMO, all of this conduct is detrimental, and none of it leads to any real societal solution.  Just more examples of folks on all sides of the issue behaving badly.
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