Author Topic: Transgender people and bathrooms  (Read 5452 times)

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Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2016, 02:15:50 PM »
Stadler, I agree that a lot of this has become arguing for the sake of arguing. I think you are adding to that by dismissing my point for not arguing something I was never trying to argue in the first place. Personally I don't like arguing and I definitely have no interest in arguing in a scenario where people on both sides are more interested in defending their positions than learning. So I'm out. I'll keep reading and I'll make sure to restrain myself if I get emotional. After all, reason free from passion. I have to make sure that I can still claim that.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2016, 02:22:23 PM »
I guess what's lost here is, who is actually looking at other people's genitals? I imagine transgendered people mostly use stalls, so why not just let them go where they are comfortable? Are you really scoping out penises and vaginas when you do your business? Or are we worried that transgendered people are suddenly sex offenders who are looking to molest people? Why does this matter? Justo go where it makes someone comfortable, IMO.

You never sneak a peak at the guy next to you just to see how you compare?  C'mon, no?  Never? 

More importantly, are transgender more or less likely to courtesy flush? That's really the issue for me.

Not sure if serious, but no I've never tried to peak at anyone else, not interested in another mans junk, I've seen enough in porn.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2016, 02:22:44 PM »
Please don't be out.  I like your questions and your insights.  I apologize if you think I was dismissing you, but I think it is a defendable point that the word "rights" is used often as a trump card.  If you're not doing that, then so be it, but as soon as someone says "well, doesn't so-and-so have a right to..." the very next question OUGHT to be (and yet rarely is) does ANYONE have that right?

Here, it's not really the case.  I don't get to use any bathroom I want.  I don't get to use "my feelings", and honestly, no one cares whether I am "comfortable" with that or not.  So it's a fair question when someone uses the word "rights" to speak to that. 

Frankly, I don't like using public bathrooms because I don't like people - with penises OR vaginas - around when I am doing my business.  I do NOT have a right to clear out a bathroom so I am comfortable. 

As for ideas, you and I are in lock step on that, so I hope you don't bail on the conversation.  It's ALL about ideas, nothing more.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2016, 07:30:43 AM »
I can see both sides of the argument here - big shock, I know, considering what a centrist I often am :lol - but I just want to say that people like Springsteen cancelling concerts because of this is dumb.  You're going to punish fans of your music by cancelling a concert at the last minute because of a cause that many of them might very well agree with you on?  Really?

What if some pedophile claims to be trans-gendered and walks into the girls bathroom and watches my wife or daughter take a piss?
Then they are a criminal and should be punished?  Which is already the case?

Because pedophiles are a) always caught, and b) always found guilty?

Offline orcus116

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2016, 07:57:33 AM »
I can see both sides of the argument here - big shock, I know, considering what a centrist I often am :lol - but I just want to say that people like Springsteen cancelling concerts because of this is dumb.  You're going to punish fans of your music by cancelling a concert at the last minute because of a cause that many of them might very well agree with you on?  Really?

I think it's more to send a message to the state of "I will not give your economy any business because of the purportedly bigoted law you passed."

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2016, 07:59:37 AM »
I can see both sides of the argument here - big shock, I know, considering what a centrist I often am :lol - but I just want to say that people like Springsteen cancelling concerts because of this is dumb.  You're going to punish fans of your music by cancelling a concert at the last minute because of a cause that many of them might very well agree with you on?  Really?

I think it's more to send a message to the state of "I will not give your economy any business because of the purportedly bigoted law you passed."

That's fine, but it's the fans who bought tickets who got punished the most.  People adjust their schedules, personal and work, around concerts, but while I am sure his intentions were noble, Springsteen cancelling his concert two days before it was supposed to happen was a shitty thing to do to his fans.

Online kingshmegland

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2016, 08:29:10 AM »
Better he have the concert,  scorn the government at this show then announce he will not be back until they correct this issue.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2016, 08:39:35 AM »
Exactly. He could have done a few on stage rants, like musicians who fancy themselves as activists love to do, it would have been all over social media and cable news, and he wouldn't have stuck it to his fans.

Online Dave_Manchester

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2016, 12:59:03 PM »
The cancelling of concerts for some profitably fashionable moral outrage is a pet peeve of mine. As noted above, the only people who suffer when 'artists' do this is the poor saps who've spent their money to come and see them. Are these singers so far up their own arses they really think they're going to influence state legislature by cancelling a concert?

I get the celebrity need to have principles, but if you're going to burden yourself with them you have to be consistent. We had Madonna cancel a concert at the last minute a few years back here in St Petersburg "in protest against Russia's backwards views on homosexuality". And where did she crop up less than a week later? The Vatican. Trousering all the dollars she could in that bastion of gay rights. Before going on to tour Italy, Spain, Poland, Central Europe...all highly progressive countries. 

In 2003 a tonne of 'artists' came out in vocal protest against America's and Britain's 'interference' in Iraq. Bono, Madonna, REM, Knopfler, Coldplay, Radiohead, to name just a very few. Question - why then did they not boycott all their concerts in America and Britain? Or would that be too much money to lose? Shafting a few thousand people out of their money for tickets and travel is fine but when the bands themselves risk losing cash then fuck it, play all the gigs you can still get. Bruce Springstein himself wasn't shy about his opposition to America's actions in Iraq - why then did he not refuse to play any more concerts in the whole of the USA? Too much money to lose?

As someone stated above, just play the damn concert, since that's what you've sold people tickets for. If you really must, then give a little speech on the stage about how you feel about whatever shit's bothering you, but first and foremost just do your job and play. What the hell kind of 'freedom fighters' are these who avoid the very places where they perceive injustice to be taking place?   
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 01:04:29 PM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2016, 07:54:28 PM »
Word, Dave.  With you 1000 percent on this.   

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2016, 09:19:48 PM »
Me too.

Also,

  Are these singers so far up their own arses they really think they're going to influence state legislature by cancelling a concert?
 

Probably.  The same can be said for Hollywood stars like Sean Penn, George Clooney, etc., who always mouth off about politics, like their opinions means jack shit. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2016, 06:40:34 AM »
Not defending them, because I can't, but it's not exclusive to "Hollywood" or "singers in name bands".   It's anyone who thinks their opinion matters.  Given the soapbox, I think MOST people would take the opportunity, and then couple that with the ego-trip of people actually making you feel like what you say matters...   then you add in a soupcon of "well, I appeared on MTV Unplugged as a nobody with "PRO CHOICE" written on my arm in Sharpie, and now I'm a megastar, so I must be on to something!" and you've got a recipe for disaster. 

I will say, though, that I've been at two shows where big-time well-known "liberals" have made their positions known and gotten booed for it.   Springsteen, during "Light of Day" at a show at Rentschler Field in Hartford started talking about that "war criminal, Dick Cheney" and the place booed, and Mike Stipe, in a show at Mohegan Sun five days after the re-election of George W. Bush called that preceding Tuesday "the darkest day of my life", and got booed.   


Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2016, 08:42:19 AM »
I will say, though, that I've been at two shows where big-time well-known "liberals" have made their positions known and gotten booed for it.   Springsteen, during "Light of Day" at a show at Rentschler Field in Hartford started talking about that "war criminal, Dick Cheney" and the place booed, and Mike Stipe, in a show at Mohegan Sun five days after the re-election of George W. Bush called that preceding Tuesday "the darkest day of my life", and got booed.   

:lol  Stuff like that cracks me up.  But it isn't limited to "liberals."  To me, it is no different than, for example, the "closet racist" who makes an offensive racist comment to someone they believe to be of the same race and who therefore must be "sympathetic" only to have the person say they are offended and call the first person out for being racist.  Or, better yet, come back with something like, "yeah, did you know my mom/dad/wife/whatever is that same race that you just insulted?"
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2016, 09:22:35 AM »
@Kev -

Yeah, actors are even worse than singers for this kind of thing, probably because their world is even more isolated and disconnected from reality.

Again, it's the arrogance, the sheer self-importance, that amazes me, coupled with the hypocrisy. "Let's punish those silly little provincial North Carolinans, show them how backwards they are and deny them their chance to see one of us famous people!" If California enacts the exact same law, what are the chances the Springsteins of the world will boycott that market? Or what about New York? Or to repeat my earlier question - if his response to a disagreement with the government of North Carolina is to play no concerts in that state, then why in 2003 wasn't his response to a disagreement with the US government to play no concerts in the US? Where's the consistency? Rhetorical questions of course, the answer is 'money'.

I remember when St. Ben of Affleck boycotted some minor independent film festival in London at the last minute, it was some years back when the poor fellow couldn't walk down a single street without seeing something that wounded his soul. On this occasion it was Blair's support of Bush. So he, along with his partner St. Matthew of Damon, decided to show those British yokels what they should be thinking. With enormous publicity for himself of course. And yet when they have a movie to promote, do you ever see them refusing to deal with Hollywood?  With Cannes? With Venice? All the places where the important money is? Bono, there's another one - never shy to start condescendingly lecturing nations about disarming, and yet he never travels anywhere without an enormous personal army surrounding him. Sticks his snout into the affairs of Russia and Ukraine's laws regarding homosexuality while at the same time kissing the various rings of a succession of Popes and dining as the personal guest of Silvio Berlusconi, one of the most corrupt politicians of our time and openly homophobic to boot.

Sorry for slightly derailing this thread but as I said at the start it's something of a pet peeve of mine. I'm not against famous people having opinions and principles but at the very least, if you absolutely have to share them with the rest of us, be consistent! 

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2016, 09:34:30 AM »
What if some pedophile claims to be trans-gendered and walks into the girls bathroom and watches my wife or daughter take a piss?
Then they are a criminal and should be punished?  Which is already the case?

I keep seeing this argument, that people are gonna get in drag and pull off violent bathroom crimes or be opportunistic voyeurs.  Does anybody really think that if someone wants to get in and watch or assault your wife or daughter that the little tiny sign that says "Women" is going to magically keep them out like some sort of male-repellent force field and that if we suddenly allow transgenders to use different bathrooms that suddenly this hidden force-field will no longer exist?  This law aside, and whether trans-gendered people can use different bathrooms or not, if someone wants to commit a crime, they're going to do it anyway.  Worrying that suddenly the rates of this type of thing skyrocketing sounds a little to me like "the sky is falling" kinda hysteria.

Transgender people, just like non-trans people, just want to get in, be as unnoticed as possible, do their business, and get out and on with their day.

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2016, 09:55:19 AM »
What if some pedophile claims to be trans-gendered and walks into the girls bathroom and watches my wife or daughter take a piss?


If someone wants to sneak a peak of your wife while she takes a piss, they are going to do it regardless. Serious question. What's stopping a pedophile from doing that now?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 10:05:12 AM by Chino »

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2016, 09:57:26 AM »
That was the much shorter and to the point version of what I said.  Thanks.  :lol

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2016, 10:03:18 AM »
And also - why would a pedophile be especially interested in watching someone's wife take a piss? 

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2016, 10:06:54 AM »
And also - why would a pedophile be especially interested in watching someone's wife take a piss?

Who knows. People are weird. I was reading that upskirting is such a problem in China, the software in the phones over there is modified so that you can't take a picture without the shutter sound effect. There's no way to disable it (short of jail breaking).

Offline jammindude

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2016, 11:11:48 AM »
And also - why would a pedophile be especially interested in watching someone's wife take a piss?

When I was an early teen...I had several problems with stall peepers. One guy in particular, if I hadn't been paying attention, I would have gone about my business and never known. But because of previous issues, I was waiting for him to leave. He kept pretending to blow his nose in the next stall....by the 8th time he blew his nose I started trying to take more notice and caught him trying to peek between the crack of the door. I yelled at him and he ran like hell.

I have no idea why they do it.... But it's much more common than you'd like to believe.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2016, 11:33:03 AM »
What I meant was - why would precisely a "pedophile" (i.e someone attracted to children) be interested in snooping on Kaos's wife (i.e presumably an adult) taking a piss? They're entirely different perversions.

I'm just gently pushing back on the hysteria a little. You know Godwin's Law - the notion that internet exchanges invariably devolve into bringing up Hitler at some point? Well there ought to be a variation of that idea - the longer a discussion of challenging ideas of sexuality and gender goes on, the more inevitable it becomes that pedophiles will randomly get used, no matter how totally unconnected to the theme, as a reason for keeping the status quo. 

« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 11:45:40 AM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2016, 11:35:16 AM »
And also - why would a pedophile be especially interested in watching someone's wife take a piss?

I meant to add pedophile or perv watching my wife or daughter. If my wife came out and said somebody who very clearly looked like a male was staring at her that she would be able to complain to someone without being considered the bully in the situation.

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2016, 01:24:05 PM »
And also - why would a pedophile be especially interested in watching someone's wife take a piss?

I meant to add pedophile or perv watching my wife or daughter. If my wife came out and said somebody who very clearly looked like a male was staring at her that she would be able to complain to someone without being considered the bully in the situation.
I think it's already the case. Staring is the problem here, not using the wrong john. Furthermore, women are of a class that can complain. A woman with the stones to confront somebody for being a perv is going to be just as sympathetic as the possibly pervy LBGDSKDHKSDJFHSK person using the can.  My bigger problem here is why worry about the dude who wants to peep on your daughter instead of the dude who wants to peep on your son? You think inappropriate staring in the head is only a problem now that people can use alternate restrooms?

This is an interesting question, really. By and large I'm in agreement with Stadler and DM, which should be no real surprise. What's fascinating is that there actually is a very real conflict of "rights" here. It's just that nobody's willing to admit anymore that being comfortable isn't a right.

Also, aren't all of the people affected by this of the sort that'll be using stalls anyway? I've never seen a urinal in a ladies room, and the trans-whatever people who want to go in the men's room are ill-equipped to use them anyway.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2016, 01:58:19 PM »

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2016, 12:20:40 AM »
 :lol
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Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2016, 11:53:03 AM »
I find it kind of ironic that the people that seem to oppose this the most are the same people that have no problem allowing civilians to open carry shotguns and rifles anywhere in public. How do we know the next Adam Lanza won't first pretend to be a good guy with a gun?

Offline Rick

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2016, 04:47:24 PM »
Let people piss in peace.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2016, 03:20:41 PM »
I find it kind of ironic that the people that seem to oppose this the most are the same people that have no problem allowing civilians to open carry shotguns and rifles anywhere in public. How do we know the next Adam Lanza won't first pretend to be a good guy with a gun?

???  I have no idea what those two topics have to do with one another.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2016, 06:00:49 PM »
The topics are only related in that they share a similar "fan base"....basically, he's grouping people into a homogenized box.   While these things are occasionally true, I'm not a fan of the practice.   
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Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2016, 06:17:29 PM »
C'mon. You guys knew where I was going with that. You have people against letting transgender people use bathrooms because they are convinced that a guy will pretend to be a woman and then rape their daughter(s) or wife, yet they'll have no problem allowing everyone to carry loaded assault weapons even though some crazed sack of shit could just as easily pretend to be a good guy with a gun and then massacre their daughter(s) or wife. Please don't act like there are an equal number of democrats thinking the same thing in regards to trannies in the bathroom, that's just not the case. Just look at the comment sections at Infowars, Free Republic, and Fox News. It's all the same people.  And as always it does not apply to all.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 06:01:25 AM by Chino »

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2016, 05:51:28 AM »
I find it kind of ironic that the people that seem to oppose this the most are the same people that have no problem allowing civilians to open carry shotguns and rifles anywhere in public. How do we know the next Adam Lanza won't first pretend to be a good guy with a gun?

Or a knife...

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2016, 08:08:10 AM »
I still have no idea what you are talking about, Chino.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2016, 08:21:39 AM »
That trans person could possibly be posing as a woman, in order to more easily assault women in the ladies' room.
That person walking around with all the guns could possibly be posing as an open-carry enthusiast, in order to more easily shoot people in public.

You can't tell me you don't see the parallel.  Both are a mischaracterization of people who probably don't fit the stereotype people so happily assign to them, without even so much as a shred of knowledge about the person.

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2016, 08:24:30 AM »
I still have no idea what you are talking about, Chino.

You have a group of people that refuse to let a transgender person choose the bathroom they want to use because there is a possibility someone might lie about being transgender and rape someone. Due to the minute possibility that someone might pretend to be transgender and use an opposite bathroom to do harm, we deny all transgenders the right to use the bathroom they wish. That's what's happening, yes?









I'll admit I am passing judgement here, but it's probably safe to say, based on the political discussion I've seen all over the internet and on 'news' programs, that at least some of the people above are also the same people that are now saying they'll boycott target because of the transgender ruling in their bathrooms. They argue that they are against it for the safety of their loved ones because there's a slim chance someone will abuse this new rule and do harm to others.

Following that same logic, if the safety of your loved ones is the most important, why are they not making the argument that someone who's not a good guy with a gun could stroll around like the people pictured above, only to unexpectedly open fire on a large group of people? That's just as likely to happen as a guy pretending to be a girl in order to gain access to the women's bathroom, no?

It just seems a little ironic, and maybe even hypocritical to me, that's all. Because there is a possibility of a bathroom rape, you (not you personally) immediately shut down anything that could help transgender people out by defaulting to the most horrific scenario you can think of. Why is the same thought process not applied to open carry?

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2016, 08:30:45 AM »
Because 'Murca and 2nd Amendment.  Thou shalt not speak ill of any rights afforded by the 2nd amendment, in any way, shape, or form, ever.  Especially not south of the Mason-Dixon line.