Author Topic: Transgender people and bathrooms  (Read 9189 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #210 on: June 13, 2016, 11:58:44 AM »
IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?
Eh, not exactly accurate.  But for purposes of this discussion (i.e., that I am not part of the group in discussion), close enough, I suppose.

Comedy to dismantle power structures, and make fun of those in better-off positions is generally fair game. This is 'punching up' in the comedy world. To mock those who are dis-empowered, when you are not part of that group yourself (IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?) is 'punching-down'; a vicious and vulgar brand of 'humour'.

I understand, but this is one area where we disagree.  I don't really like the "punching up"/"punching down" description, because I don't think it is indicative of what all humor is about, and doesn't specifically apply to this situation.  I don't think all (or even most) humor entails any "mocking" whatsoever.  And mine certainly did not--other than perhaps mocking myself for being clueless.  I wasn't mocking at all.  But let's just leave it at that.  I'm not trying to defend myself and say that you shouldn't be offended.  I'm just trying to articulate why we disagree.  I apologize for causing offense, and am hopeful that you are okay with that.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #211 on: June 13, 2016, 12:13:26 PM »
IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?
Eh, not exactly accurate.  But for purposes of this discussion (i.e., that I am not part of the group in discussion), close enough, I suppose.

Comedy to dismantle power structures, and make fun of those in better-off positions is generally fair game. This is 'punching up' in the comedy world. To mock those who are dis-empowered, when you are not part of that group yourself (IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?) is 'punching-down'; a vicious and vulgar brand of 'humour'.

I understand, but this is one area where we disagree.  I don't really like the "punching up"/"punching down" description, because I don't think it is indicative of what all humor is about, and doesn't specifically apply to this situation.  I don't think all (or even most) humor entails any "mocking" whatsoever.  And mine certainly did not--other than perhaps mocking myself for being clueless.  I wasn't mocking at all.  But let's just leave it at that.  I'm not trying to defend myself and say that you shouldn't be offended.  I'm just trying to articulate why we disagree.  I apologize for causing offense, and am hopeful that you are okay with that.

 I see it differently than Rick does. I feel like as long as your humor and deprecation wasn't always geared towards the same group, then what's the harm? I'll poke fun at all different groups, and yes I'll even tell Italian jokes. I think the prejudice starts to reveal itself when one constantly barrages the same kind of people. It's not a matter of punching up/down. I'm not sure what the really means but I'll just assume up and down are relative to societal status? And why does it have to be punching? You're such a violent person for someone who can be sensitive.  ;)

Offline Rick

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #212 on: June 13, 2016, 12:37:05 PM »
Not my place perhaps, as it isn't my argument, but what does "white, heterosexual, married American lawyer" - of which I am all of those, inclusive - have to do with it if it isn't about you making your specific point?

If I understand right, the point of that was basically that as a person of some decent amount of privilege (for lack of a better term), it's generally better received to mock those with more perceived privilege than you than it is to mock those with less perceived privilege than you.

"Mock" isn't the word I want to use there, I don't think, but it's what sounded right.

Yup, 'privilege'. I was trying to avoid the term, as the whole 'check your privilege' phrase is so ubiquitous.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-checking-privilege-means/

]I don't think all (or even most) humor entails any "mocking" whatsoever.  And mine certainly did not--other than perhaps mocking myself for being clueless.  I wasn't mocking at all.  But let's just leave it at that.  I'm not trying to defend myself and say that you shouldn't be offended.  I'm just trying to articulate why we disagree.  I apologize for causing offense, and am hopeful that you are okay with that.

I'd advise against making 'jokes' about minority groups that you're not a part of; what you discern as 'mildly deprecating' is likely to very much appear as 'mocking & offensive' to others within/associated-with that group.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #213 on: June 13, 2016, 01:26:38 PM »
Not my place perhaps, as it isn't my argument, but what does "white, heterosexual, married American lawyer" - of which I am all of those, inclusive - have to do with it if it isn't about you making your specific point?

If I understand right, the point of that was basically that as a person of some decent amount of privilege (for lack of a better term), it's generally better received to mock those with more perceived privilege than you than it is to mock those with less perceived privilege than you.

"Mock" isn't the word I want to use there, I don't think, but it's what sounded right.

Yup, 'privilege'. I was trying to avoid the term, as the whole 'check your privilege' phrase is so ubiquitous.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-checking-privilege-means/

I know what "privilege" means, and I know what "checking one's privilege" means.  It works both ways.   If we all have some privilege over others, then presumably everyone else - even the self-described "bipolar queer" (his words) - has some privilege over us.

I know what was meant (and I replied as much to Coz in PM); I take issue with the notion that you can use context to make a larger point and base that point on meaningless and likely invalid assumptions.  That's not what "punching up/punching down" means or implies.   It is an expression that posits an idea based on group interaction that doesn't necessarily hold sway over individual interaction. 

Quote
]I don't think all (or even most) humor entails any "mocking" whatsoever.  And mine certainly did not--other than perhaps mocking myself for being clueless.  I wasn't mocking at all.  But let's just leave it at that.  I'm not trying to defend myself and say that you shouldn't be offended.  I'm just trying to articulate why we disagree.  I apologize for causing offense, and am hopeful that you are okay with that.

I'd advise against making 'jokes' about minority groups that you're not a part of; what you discern as 'mildly deprecating' is likely to very much appear as 'mocking & offensive' to others within/associated-with that group.

Duly noted.   That point of view assumes that all "offense" is created equal and is justified.  I don't agree with that.  I think it is POSSIBLE that it would appear as "mocking and offensive", but not necessarily "likely".  Who's to know?  As I said above, you can't have it both ways.   If we're to take each minority at face value, and no assumptions are to be made, then we can't rightly assume they'll ALL be offended equally, can we?   In all matters like this, I err on the side of "tend your own garden"; I can't control you or your behavior, so I control what I can, and I can control what I say, and I can control my reaction to others (meaning I don't get offended very easily). 

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #214 on: June 13, 2016, 02:25:06 PM »
Also, don't dare disrespect Egypt.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #215 on: June 13, 2016, 02:50:43 PM »
If we're to take each minority at face value, and no assumptions are to be made, then we can't rightly assume they'll ALL be offended equally, can we?   

Bingo.

In fact, I think there's a much more dangerous assumption at play here: the assumption that certain groups need to be protected from offense, while other groups are expected to deal with it on their own.  This is a pretty massive pair of generalizations, and honestly, I think it is genuinely harmful to people on both sides of the 'privilege' line.  It causes us to treat some people as fragile while dismissing the pain of others. 

Here's a novel idea: treat people with empathy, regardless of their privilege. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 03:06:27 PM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #216 on: March 09, 2017, 01:02:42 PM »
This is starting to get really pathetic.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/16/kentucky-bill-catch-transgender-student-in-wrong-bathroom-win-2-500

Quote
Kentucky students using sex-segregated bathrooms and locker rooms could win $2,500 if they catch a member of the excluded biological sex there, under proposed legislation.

The bill intends to crack down on school employees who allow transgender students to use bathrooms and locker rooms designated for the opposite biological sex.

But, as written, the bill authorizes lawsuits not only if school personnel approved of such facility use, but also if they [f]ailed to take reasonable steps to prohibit the person encountered from using facilities designated for use by the opposite biological sex.

Students who sue in state courts, the bill says, would be entitled to $2,500 for each violation and are also eligible for damages for psychological and emotional harm. The offending school would foot the bill, along with all attorney fees.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #217 on: March 09, 2017, 01:16:28 PM »
Terrible.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #218 on: March 09, 2017, 01:18:13 PM »
At least the children will be safe.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #219 on: March 09, 2017, 01:19:01 PM »
Y'all realize that was from 2 years ago, right?
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Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #220 on: March 09, 2017, 01:20:58 PM »
Oh good. Then the children have been safe for two years.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #221 on: March 09, 2017, 01:54:09 PM »
My bad on the overlook. But the fact that things like this even see the light of day further reinforce my feelings that politicians are shitbags.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #222 on: March 09, 2017, 01:55:42 PM »
Y'all realize that was from 2 years ago, right?
Didn't even check - which is unusual for me.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #223 on: March 09, 2017, 02:03:39 PM »
Again, this is what lawmakers find important. Pathetic. Fortunately, this piece of garbage died a few months later in the KY house.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #224 on: March 09, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »
Fortunately, this piece of garbage died a few months later in the KY house.

Strange.  If that was the case, I would have expected a well-lubricated piece of legislation that would slide right through without any resistance.  Go figure.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #225 on: March 09, 2017, 02:28:37 PM »
:rollin

Nice.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #226 on: March 09, 2017, 03:15:21 PM »
Fortunately, this piece of garbage died a few months later in the KY house.

Strange.  If that was the case, I would have expected a well-lubricated piece of legislation that would slide right through without any resistance.  Go figure.

I think KY was trying to push a similar bill through the VI first... you know, just to see how it would go with just an organized territory with no voting rights... I think the Dept. of the Interior had a problem with it though.
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Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #227 on: March 09, 2017, 03:58:05 PM »
The joke ---->

Your head

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #228 on: March 09, 2017, 04:37:21 PM »
Was it the his and her house Coz?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #229 on: March 09, 2017, 05:11:25 PM »
Y'all realize that was from 2 years ago, right?

 :lol :lol :lol

Welcome to the modern age: "I will overreact before I know all the facts."

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #230 on: March 09, 2017, 05:43:00 PM »
Yes because being an old story makes it less outrageous that shitbag lawmakers are focusing on shit like this instead of, you know, important things. I'm glad you find it amusing.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #231 on: March 09, 2017, 06:12:07 PM »
Oh, come on, man. You know that's not what I was laughing at. I was laughing at the tendency of people nowadays to overreact on the spot to a story without actually taking a breath and, ya know, reading the facts. 

Offline orcus116

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #232 on: March 10, 2017, 05:09:01 AM »
Y'all realize that was from 2 years ago, right?

 :lol :lol :lol

Welcome to the modern age: "I will overreact before I know all the facts."

FTFY

There are no facts in the modern age, just headlines, buzzwords, and bad opinions.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #233 on: March 10, 2017, 08:09:14 AM »
The joke ---->

Your head

Actually Coz, I think my joke went over your head.  VI stands for Virgin Islands... the Department of the Interior couldn't handle KY pushing so hard on the Virgin Islands.

Perhaps it was an ill-timed attempt to match Bosk's original masterwork...
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #234 on: March 10, 2017, 08:26:39 AM »
There was a tiny part of me that suspected this, but it was much more subtle.  Well done!  :lol

Offline vtgrad

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #235 on: March 10, 2017, 08:30:42 AM »
There was a tiny part of me that suspected this, but it was much more subtle.  Well done!  :lol

Thank you sir... a true, true compliment from the man that crafted "Carrie on my wayward son"  :lol 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

Now with Twitler taking a high end steak of this caliber and insulting the cow that died for it by having it well done just shows zero respect for the product, which falls right in line with the amount of respect he shows for pretty much everything else.- Lonestar

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #236 on: March 10, 2017, 09:03:57 AM »
:lol  Well, in all honesty, I cannot take the credit for that one, I got it from my brother.

Offline Podaar

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #237 on: March 10, 2017, 09:05:54 AM »
Mrs. P still groans whenever we hear that song. We're going to see Kansas live next month and she's told me she hopes they don't play it.  :lol

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #238 on: March 10, 2017, 09:07:26 AM »
Mrs. P still groans whenever we hear that song. We're going to see Kansas live next month and she's told me she hopes they don't play it.  :lol
I have bad news for her.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #239 on: March 10, 2017, 09:07:55 AM »
They can't not play THAT song. 
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #240 on: March 10, 2017, 09:08:14 AM »
She'll find a way to carry on.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #241 on: March 10, 2017, 09:10:26 AM »
Tell her to go to a bathroom break during the song.  Look at that, linked into the thread.   :lol
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