Author Topic: Transgender people and bathrooms  (Read 6994 times)

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #175 on: May 20, 2016, 07:42:14 AM »
 :rollin
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Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #176 on: May 20, 2016, 08:42:29 AM »
But not understanding is not a reason for hatred or negativity.
Or discrimination.

And "not understanding it" is the only reason it came up in North Carolina.  Yeah, they used reasons like "sexual perverts being a danger in restrooms" but multiple studies have shown that this is an unsubstantiated fear.  It doesn't happen.  Again, like voter fraud.  The kind of fraud that the legislature in our state (and other states) passed ID laws to prevent simply doesn't happen.  They claim one reason for a law to be passed, when in reality it is for a very different reason.

It is a switch-and-bait to fool the populace into accepting the rules they put in place, completely unsubstantiated by reality.  It's like passing a law banning car doors because oranges have vitamin C in them.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #177 on: May 20, 2016, 09:57:46 AM »
Ah. Well, the psychological community does not see it as something to be dealt with psychologically. I could go into more detail, but meh. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification. :)

Please do so; that's my understanding.  I'd rather be told (shown) I'm wrong so I can be right the next time. 

And for the record, I'm not suggesting it can be "dealt with" (i.e. solved) psychologically, I'm suggesting that more can be done to help psychologically.  Big difference.

We don't know the root of homosexuality, just like we don't know the root of being transgender. It might be physical, it might not be. In the end, it doesn't make a difference. There is absolutely no way, psychologically, to help a truly transgender person without advocating self-deception, repression, and a plethora of other very unhealthy means just for the sake of stopping them from making a decision about themselves. And the diagnosis needed for being considered truly transgender, and being possible for surgery is Gender Dysphoria, and I can assure you that it's not even remotely close to "well I guess I feel like a woman cause I like to put on dresses" or whatever other random things have been said about what constitutes being transgender. In fact, it's quite difficult to procure that diagnosis.

"We don't know"; maybe not "for certain", but using the level of certainty we use for, say, global warming we do.   And this isn't a bait and switch game.  I don't for a second believe that either homosexuality or gender dysphoria is a "choice" or something to be "therapied" away.  I get that you may not want to answer in more detail because others might jump on the chance to attack the special interests in question.  That's not my goal.  But having said that, I may be cold but not completely unreasonable when I say that regardless of what the situation is, it's not default society's problem right out of the gate.  We don't bend over backwards and make it society's problem for people with anger issues, or depression.  I think it has to be a non-judgemental, non-PC, across-the-board dialogue, and I don't think right now it is. 

Offline jammindude

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2016, 12:16:50 AM »
I couldn't resist.



My step son saw this and said.... "You're about to 'identify' as a piece of driftwood."   
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Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #179 on: May 21, 2016, 06:32:33 AM »
 :rollin :rollin

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #180 on: May 21, 2016, 07:59:39 PM »
Saw this and thought is was relevant.

I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

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Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #181 on: May 21, 2016, 08:38:07 PM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #182 on: May 21, 2016, 10:55:13 PM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

If people need to have the difference between marrying a member of the same species and marrying a completely different species explained to them then their problem is beyond our reach.

Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2016, 11:11:39 PM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

If people need to have the difference between marrying a member of the same species and marrying a completely different species explained to them then their problem is beyond our reach.

I agree.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #184 on: May 22, 2016, 01:49:32 AM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

I don't know.  Personally, I think the image in King's post touches on a point that is somewhat valid.  Granted, the people making that point are often unnecessarily mean-spirited about it, but the point itself is interesting to me.

I've actually had trouble wrapping my head around the concept of gender identity.  What exactly does it mean to identify as a gender?  I've done quite a bit of reading online trying to find an answer to that question, and I've never really found an explanation I could get behind. 

Quoting Wikipedia - not a great source, I know, but just for the sake of discussion:  "The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity)."  That's from the article on 'Sex and gender distinction.'  The bolded portion outlines two ways of looking at gender.

The first is essentially gender roles - social roles based on sex.  That's a fairly reasonable explanation.  However, I feel like that just perpetuates the idea of traditional gender stereotypes, an idea which I can't say I'm all that fond of. 

Alternatively, Wikipedia suggests that gender might also refer to... personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness.  Which seems fairly useless as a definition, seeing as it literally uses the word it is attempting to define.  Now, again, to be fair, this is a Wikipedia article I'm quoting.  It's not exactly an ironclad source.  But at the very least, it represents a public perception of the gender issue.  And I think it's pretty easy to see how that perception might lead to questions like the ones posed in King's picture.  It's not a slippery slope argument - it's a question about the logic behind this 'identification'.  After all, if you try to define any other identification system this way, it can get downright ridiculous. 

"Citizenship can refer to personal identification of one's own citizenship based on internal awareness."  No, citizenship refers to the status of a person recognized by custom or law as being a member of a country.  "Shape can refer to personal identification of one's own shape based on internal awareness."  No, shape refers to an object's physical form, external boundary, outline, or surface.  "Weight can refer to personal identification of one's own weight based on internal awareness."  No, weight refers to the force exerted on an object or person by gravity.  "Gender can refer to personal identification of one's own gender based on internal awareness."  No, gender refers to...

... what, exactly?

And I'm honestly asking.  I'm not just trying to play devil's advocate or be obnoxious.  I sincerely struggle with modern gender issues, because everything seems to be defined in very vague and often arbitrary ways.  If anyone can provide me with clarity or insight, I genuinely welcome it. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 02:07:03 AM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #185 on: May 22, 2016, 05:12:53 AM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

I never got why people are so adamant against letting 2 people Matty. It doesn't affect our lives one bit!
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #186 on: May 22, 2016, 11:38:15 AM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

I never got why people are so adamant against letting 2 people Matty. It doesn't affect our lives one bit!

Mattying doesn't sound as depraved as Blobbing.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #187 on: May 22, 2016, 03:42:32 PM »
She ata church agettin' maddied to oily bohunk.

Married?

Yeah, maddied.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #188 on: May 22, 2016, 04:31:33 PM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

I never got why people are so adamant against letting 2 people Matty. It doesn't affect our lives one bit!

Mattying doesn't sound as depraved as Blobbing.

You get the drift mon frere.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #189 on: May 22, 2016, 05:21:19 PM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

I never got why people are so adamant against letting 2 people Matty. It doesn't affect our lives one bit!

Mattying doesn't sound as depraved as Blobbing.

You get the drift mon frere.

Indeed.   :biggrin:   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #190 on: May 23, 2016, 09:23:38 AM »
That really feels like it's the same as "We can't get gay people get married....WHAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO MARRY THEIR DOGS?!??!"

If people need to have the difference between marrying a member of the same species and marrying a completely different species explained to them then their problem is beyond our reach.

I agree.

But... there's always a 'but'. 

This is Twitter logic and Facebook reasoning, i.e. faultily over-simplified.  Yes, I get it; the over-simplification helps the cause, makes it seem so "common sense" and reasonable.    But it utterly ignores the underlying process of all of it. 

It's not as if marrying another man is actually akin to "marrying your dog", and it's not as if we are necessarily equating "being gay" to "bestiality".    But there is an element to which we are expanding the law not based on sound legal premises, social impact, or established science, but rather because it's "natural".    But that's a subjective - not objective - analysis.    Performing fellatio is not, for me, at all natural.  Nor is sodomizing a dog.  Nor is tying up my female partner and whipping her to the point of welts and bruises.     Having said that, I would - and have - argued that all three should be the purview of each individual participant (which means that bestiality can't happen, since we all agree that under current laws, animals cannot grant legal consent).    But we're not talking about what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms.   We're now talking about representation in front of our government, our churches, and our society, and the recognition of certain benefits as a result of the legal designation of "married".   

I'm not against gay marriage at all, but I am against how we got here, because I value the process as much as I value the outcome.  "It doesn't harm ME", isn't a standard.  If you married your 14-year-old sister, it "wouldn't harm me" either.  And some cultures allow that, as "natural".    So how do we prevent a legal challenge to those things?   Under the current "social justice" narrative, we don't, and in our zeal to make "everything right" I don't think we've thought that through far enough yet. This is the inherent trouble in "legislating from the bench".   

Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #191 on: May 23, 2016, 01:13:13 PM »
You would make an excellent Kree. :)
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Offline TL

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #192 on: June 05, 2016, 12:18:17 AM »
I'm not against gay marriage at all, but I am against how we got here, because I value the process as much as I value the outcome.  "It doesn't harm ME", isn't a standard.  If you married your 14-year-old sister, it "wouldn't harm me" either.  And some cultures allow that, as "natural".    So how do we prevent a legal challenge to those things?   Under the current "social justice" narrative, we don't, and in our zeal to make "everything right" I don't think we've thought that through far enough yet. This is the inherent trouble in "legislating from the bench".   
It's pretty universally assumed that these conversations include the caveat of "consenting adults". At this point in civilized society, these laws generally have an assumed 18+ condition, as well as a very assumed position of "not getting it on with a blood relative". If someone has to actually have either of those points explained to them, they're probably beyond reproach anyway.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #193 on: June 05, 2016, 09:27:12 AM »
I'm not against gay marriage at all, but I am against how we got here, because I value the process as much as I value the outcome.  "It doesn't harm ME", isn't a standard.  If you married your 14-year-old sister, it "wouldn't harm me" either.  And some cultures allow that, as "natural".    So how do we prevent a legal challenge to those things?   Under the current "social justice" narrative, we don't, and in our zeal to make "everything right" I don't think we've thought that through far enough yet. This is the inherent trouble in "legislating from the bench".   
It's pretty universally assumed that these conversations include the caveat of "consenting adults". At this point in civilized society, these laws generally have an assumed 18+ condition, as well as a very assumed position of "not getting it on with a blood relative". If someone has to actually have either of those points explained to them, they're probably beyond reproach anyway.

Faulty assumption.  You can't argue "well, this is in the context of established law" when arguing to change ONE PARTICULAR established law.  It WAS illegal in some jurisdictions to marry someone of your sex.   And it was changed.   Which is my point entirely:  it is possible that the "18" can change (in my state, it's actually 16 to marry and in some cases you can get married even younger than that), and especially since medical science doesn't currently support the "common sense wisdom", it is entirely possible that "marrying a blood relative" might change.   

Bottom line is unavoidable: we HAVEN'T thought this through well enough.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #194 on: June 06, 2016, 09:24:18 AM »
I sometimes bring my bike into work and ride home along a 26-mile river trail.  We have a bike room on the ground floor of our building where everyone parks their bikes, which works well.  Basically, I have to ride the main elevator down 16 floors to the ground floor, then walk through the lobby and around a corner past a separate, smaller, "hidden" elevator bank to the parking garages to the access door that leads to the bike room.  The one dilemma is where to change.  Even I have seen a few people change in their offices and ride down in their workout clothes, it just feels weird to me to be riding the elevator down with my colleagues and/or superiors wearing spandex biking shorts.  The solution is that there are a pair of small restrooms directly across from the parking elevator bank.  Last week, as I was heading toward the restrooms to change, I was deep in thought about something or the other, and was distracted by that.  As I entered the restroom, I immediately felt that something wasn't right.  Sure enough, I made the dreaded mistake that would have been social suicide if it happened back when I was a school kid--I had walked into the ladies' room by mistake.  At 4:30 in the afternoon, the chances of encountering someone in there were pretty slim, so not surprising that no one was in there.  Still, I was a bit embarrassed for myself and turned to make a hasty retreat.  As luck would have it, just as I was coming out the door, the doors to the elevator directly across opened, and the only passenger was an older lady that gave a shocked and disapproving look.  I mumbled something like, "My mistake," and quickly ducked into the men's room as she started to laugh.  Unfortunately, my wits were not about me and my brain was a few seconds too slow, because I immediately thought to myself, "I should have said something like, 'the gender reassignment still hasn't completely taken hold; I get SO confused sometimes!'"  This thread could have saved me.  WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I NEEDED YOU MOST, DTF?!  :lol
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 11:08:44 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #195 on: June 06, 2016, 11:07:51 AM »
lol

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #196 on: June 08, 2016, 11:10:07 AM »
OK, what I have a problem with are teens whom had a sex change. I sure hope the parents and them had a major talk about this major life decision to change their sex, and I sure hope if they go through with it, they don't regret it later on in life like when they turn 40. It's for the rest of your life and you can't just decide to go back.

I don't mind if your like 40 and you decide to do that,  because you should know the underlying effects of this change.

I just hope those that do make this decision are prepared to live the rest of their life as the opposite sex.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #197 on: June 08, 2016, 11:32:18 AM »
I don't think young people physically transitioning is a huge issue. Is it even that common? Everyone I know who is on T or seriously considering transitioning is in their 20's. As far as I can see, most teens are more concerned with gender than their physical sex. And even then, those that have a desire to transition have been experiencing strong disphoria for most of their lives.

While I may get flack for saying it in other venues, I do think there has been a strong rise in gender and LGBT+ discourse as a way to simply fit in or have a sense of worth and belonging rather than actually reflecting a deeper understand of one's self or the ethics behind it all. That being said, I really don't think those that really want to physically transition are in that group. That's just from my observations and personal experiences though.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #198 on: June 08, 2016, 11:56:36 AM »
OK, what I have a problem with are teens whom had a sex change. I sure hope the parents and them had a major talk about this major life decision to change their sex, and I sure hope if they go through with it, they don't regret it later on in life like when they turn 40. It's for the rest of your life and you can't just decide to go back.

I don't mind if your like 40 and you decide to do that,  because you should know the underlying effects of this change.

I just hope those that do make this decision are prepared to live the rest of their life as the opposite sex.
My hunch is that no reputable hospital would even consider that sort of thing for a teenager.  Most doctors will give you grief if you want to get yourself fixed before you're 30 or already saddled with kids. When it has occurred it's probably at a much younger age when there are anatomical issues that need to be "corrected," and even that's on pretty shaky ethical ground.
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Offline Rick

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #199 on: June 12, 2016, 07:33:00 PM »
Sure enough, I made the dreaded mistake that would have been social suicide if it happened back when I was a school kid--I had walked into the ladies' room by mistake.  At 4:30 in the afternoon, the chances of encountering someone in there were pretty slim, so not surprising that no one was in there.  Still, I was a bit embarrassed for myself and turned to make a hasty retreat.  As luck would have it, just as I was coming out the door, the doors to the elevator directly across opened, and the only passenger was an older lady that gave a shocked and disapproving look.  I mumbled something like, "My mistake," and quickly ducked into the men's room as she started to laugh.  Unfortunately, my wits were not about me and my brain was a few seconds too slow, because I immediately thought to myself, "I should have said something like, 'the gender reassignment still hasn't completely taken hold; I get SO confused sometimes!'"  This thread could have saved me.  WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I NEEDED YOU MOST, DTF?!  :lol

 :facepalm:
This is really really poor-taste humour and very offensive, bosk.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #200 on: June 13, 2016, 10:34:10 AM »
My apologies for offending you, Rick.  No offense intended.  But this was a true story, not an attempt to create humor.  If you can't see the humor in a humorous real event, do you think it is possible that maybe you're being a bit overly-sensitive?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Rick

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #201 on: June 13, 2016, 10:52:49 AM »
My apologies for offending you, Rick.  No offense intended.  But this was a true story, not an attempt to create humor.  If you can't see the humor in a humorous real event, do you think it is possible that maybe you're being a bit overly-sensitive?

Sure enough, I made the dreaded mistake that would have been social suicide if it happened back when I was a school kid--I had walked into the ladies' room by mistake.  At 4:30 in the afternoon, the chances of encountering someone in there were pretty slim, so not surprising that no one was in there.  Still, I was a bit embarrassed for myself and turned to make a hasty retreat.  As luck would have it, just as I was coming out the door, the doors to the elevator directly across opened, and the only passenger was an older lady that gave a shocked and disapproving look.  I mumbled something like, "My mistake," and quickly ducked into the men's room as she started to laugh. 

A humorous event for all involved.

Unfortunately, my wits were not about me and my brain was a few seconds too slow, because I immediately thought to myself, "I should have said something like, 'the gender reassignment still hasn't completely taken hold; I get SO confused sometimes!'"  This thread could have saved me.  WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I NEEDED YOU MOST, DTF?!  :lol

Offensive portion of story detailing offensive thoughts wherein the author details what they could have said, followed by a: :lol. This, whether you wanted to say it either as:
-  a serious statement to get yourself out of being told off from using the women's bathroom
- as a joke
is deeply problematic. I'm moderately certain that, indeed, you weren't intending it to be offensive, but I'm uncertain as to whether you're able to grasp why I'm saying it is offensive; and it's rather insulting to be told I'm "over sensitive"

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #202 on: June 13, 2016, 11:06:10 AM »
Fair enough.  Thank you for the response.
...and it's rather insulting to be told I'm "over sensitive"
My apologies again.  But I think I was perhaps misunderstood.  I was not trying to accuse you of being over-sensitive, but more asking you to self-examine and ask yourself whether that might be a possibility.  I tried to word that carefully, fully prepared for the fact that the response (and a perfectly valid one) might be more along the lines of, "No, I don't think so, and here's why: ________."  Which I would be fully prepared to accept.  What I am trying to say is that, at least to me, there is a subtle but VERY important distinction between accusing vs. simply asking whether what I was drawing from your post is or is not accurate.  The latter is aimed at furthering the discussion and, hopefully, furthering understanding between us.  And, ultimately, since you posted a thoughtful response, that is the result I got. 

In any case, thanks for the response.  You are correct that I don't fully grasp why the portion you highlighted is offensive.  I don't find mildly deprecating humor to be offensive, whether it is aimed at a group I am part of or not.  And that's all my post was meant to be.  But if you are so inclined to further elaborate, I would appreciate you educating me on why it is offensive.  We might still end up disagreeing, but at least I will better understand your position and be more aware and more sensitive to it.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #203 on: June 13, 2016, 11:11:01 AM »
In any case, thanks for the response.  You are correct that I don't fully grasp why the portion you highlighted is offensive.  I don't find mildly deprecating humor to be offensive, whether it is aimed at a group I am part of or not.  And that's all my post was meant to be.  But if you are so inclined to further elaborate, I would appreciate you educating me on why it is offensive.  We might still end up disagreeing, but at least I will better understand your position and be more aware and more sensitive to it.
*does a double take*

Wait, I am still on the internet, aren't I?

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #204 on: June 13, 2016, 11:13:34 AM »
Something can be offensive and not be at all malicious, and the result is a lot of good humor. I think a big problem in our country today is that people have forgotten how that works.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #205 on: June 13, 2016, 11:22:09 AM »
Something can be offensive and not be at all malicious, and the result is a lot of good humor. 
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.  I guess that distinction makes sense here in terms of me not having even an ounce of malicious intent, but it still coming across to Rick (and perhaps others) as offensive.  I still feel like "offensive" is still a bit too strong of a term, but it is beginning to make more sense to me in the terms you used, Chino.

I think a big problem in our country today is that people have forgotten how that works.

Yeah, I tend to agree.  And, once again, you have perhaps better articulated what I was trying to say in my previous post asking if maybe Rick was being "overly-sensitive."  Not that he doesn't have a right to feel how he feels about my post--but merely asking for an acknowledgment that perhaps we (the collective "we" as a world society, for lack of a better term) don't sometimes focus too heavily on what might be wrong with a particular statement instead of just finding ways to unify regardless of any real or perceived flaws in the way something is presented.
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Offline Rick

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #206 on: June 13, 2016, 11:35:29 AM »
You are correct that I don't fully grasp why the portion you highlighted is offensive.  I don't find mildly deprecating humor to be offensive, whether it is aimed at a group I am part of or not. 

Your definition of 'mildly' is interesting. Comedy to dismantle power structures, and make fun of those in better-off positions is generally fair game. This is 'punching up' in the comedy world. To mock those who are dis-empowered, when you are not part of that group yourself (IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?) is 'punching-down'; a vicious and vulgar brand of 'humour'. For a guy to pop out of a women's bathroom and say "I'm trans lol!" is crass and ignorant ["lacking knowledge or awareness in general" definition; again, I'm sure your intent was to not be offensive], and only serves to perpetuate issues for trans people in the USA who are fighting this [basic] right of being allowed to piss in peace.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 11:41:53 AM by Rick »

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #207 on: June 13, 2016, 11:44:10 AM »
You are correct that I don't fully grasp why the portion you highlighted is offensive.  I don't find mildly deprecating humor to be offensive, whether it is aimed at a group I am part of or not. 

Your definition of 'mildly' is interesting. Comedy to dismantle power structures, and make fun of those in better-off positions is generally fair game. This is 'punching up' in the comedy world. To mock those who are dis-empowered, when you are not part of that group yourself (IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?) is 'punching-down'; a vicious and vulgar brand of 'humour'. For a guy to pop out of a women's bathroom and say "I'm trans lol!" is crass and ignorant, and only serves to perpetuate issues for trans people in the USA who are fighting this [basic] right of being allowed to piss in peace.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I think going after those who are "dis-empowered", at least in comendy, can actually be the catalyst that eventually gets that group acceptance into what the majority of us would view as 'normal society', or it's proof that the societal barriers have been removed and those groups are now allowed to be made fun of like the rest of us.

She's probably not all that popular here, but I think Lisa Lampanelli is a perfect example of this. She tears into the gay community, makes fun of them and uses them relentlessly in material at every show she does. Gays love her, and they get it.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #208 on: June 13, 2016, 11:49:25 AM »
You are correct that I don't fully grasp why the portion you highlighted is offensive.  I don't find mildly deprecating humor to be offensive, whether it is aimed at a group I am part of or not. 

Your definition of 'mildly' is interesting. Comedy to dismantle power structures, and make fun of those in better-off positions is generally fair game. This is 'punching up' in the comedy world. To mock those who are dis-empowered, when you are not part of that group yourself (IIRC, you're a white, heterosexual, married American lawyer?) is 'punching-down'; a vicious and vulgar brand of 'humour'. For a guy to pop out of a women's bathroom and say "I'm trans lol!" is crass and ignorant, and only serves to perpetuate issues for trans people in the USA who are fighting this [basic] right of being allowed to piss in peace.

Not my place perhaps, as it isn't my argument, but what does "white, heterosexual, married American lawyer" - of which I am all of those, inclusive - have to do with it if it isn't about you making your specific point?

Your position would have had a lot more credibility if it wasn't so divisive in its outlook.  It's equally as likely that the guy popping out of a woman's bathroom and saying "I'm trans! LOL!" was making a statement that "wow, it really IS silly to have this discussion, because I - a so-called "white, heterosexual, married, American lawyer!" (read:  NOT TRANS, that is, with no real business in there to begin with) - just came out of there and no one died, the building didn't fall, and no one was raped or assaulted."   His comment actually probably helps the cause in the long run by both diffusing the situation and showing the frivolity and inanity of the underlying premise, and yet - seemingly because he is a "white, heterosexual, married, American lawyer" - you've got issue with it.

Was I prone to being "offended" (I'm not) I might find this qualifies. 


Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #209 on: June 13, 2016, 11:51:33 AM »
Not my place perhaps, as it isn't my argument, but what does "white, heterosexual, married American lawyer" - of which I am all of those, inclusive - have to do with it if it isn't about you making your specific point?

If I understand right, the point of that was basically that as a person of some decent amount of privilege (for lack of a better term), it's generally better received to mock those with more perceived privilege than you than it is to mock those with less perceived privilege than you.

"Mock" isn't the word I want to use there, I don't think, but it's what sounded right.