Author Topic: Transgender people and bathrooms  (Read 6925 times)

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #140 on: May 17, 2016, 02:36:55 PM »
 :facepalm:

It's a way to slip in laws without others noticing.  It's terrible.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #141 on: May 17, 2016, 02:48:34 PM »
Precisely.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #142 on: May 17, 2016, 03:21:34 PM »
Tend your own garden. 
Kind of hard to tend your own garden when the Republican legislature won't let you in the fucking garden to begin with.

And you can be against any anti-Republican sentiment you want, but this wasn't even that big an issue until Republican legislatures started passing laws against it.  Another non-problem that they felt the need to solve, kind of like with voter ID laws.  They seem to feel the need to make the world safe for conservative white Christians.  And rage against that too, if you want, but that is the bulk of the makeup of these legislatures, as well as the makeup of the gerrymandered districts that vote them in.

Ordinarily I don't challenge the Hef, and even then, 99% of the time I'd agree with you, but in this case, didn't it get started because the City Council (or whatever the body is called) in Charlotte got too big for their britches and tried to codify what was already happening?  Didn't they REALLY start it by "needing to solve (read:  MAKE OFFICIAL) a non-problem"? 

I don't mean this personally against you, but I'm finding more and more that whenever the conversation reverts back to "the Republican this" or the "Democrat that" or "conservative white Christians" or "[insert special interest du jour]" it's really just some form of "I know you are but what am I?"   For every (legitimate) example of a law looking to "make the world safe for conservative white Christians" there's an example of "let's force everyone to ACCEPT ME!" in ways that "equal rights" is not equipped to touch (and was never intended to).   I wouldn't know for certain - I'm not a dead African American civil rights leader and I haven't even played one on TV - but I can't imagine MLK making this issue his Waterloo. 

My Tend Your Own GardenTM wasn't meant at any one group.   It was meant as a blanket statement.   It's like clapping or shaking hands; it doesn't work when only one side is doing it.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #143 on: May 17, 2016, 03:24:44 PM »
:facepalm:

It's a way to slip in laws without others noticing.  It's terrible.

Well....  glass half empty.  The glass half full version is that it is the necessary give and take to get legislation that otherwise wouldn't pass to go through.  "I will vote for your penis enlargement bill if you include a provision that provides free corn on the cob at all BBW buffets".   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #144 on: May 17, 2016, 03:27:45 PM »
In Texas it happened similarly, but with no legislation making it "official." The superintendent of the Tarrant County ISD established the school's position on the matter, which is his job, and the Texas AG flipped out over it and filed a lawsuit. Part of what bugs me about this is that the complaints of the conservatives are that such things should be decided locally. Hence [ostensibly, at least] the outrage over Obama stepping in. Saying something should be a local matter, like so many other things, only applies if you agree with the townsfolk.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #145 on: May 17, 2016, 03:39:00 PM »
:facepalm:

It's a way to slip in laws without others noticing.  It's terrible.

Well....  glass half empty.  The glass half full version is that it is the necessary give and take to get legislation that otherwise wouldn't pass to go through.  "I will vote for your penis enlargement bill if you include a provision that provides free corn on the cob at all BBW buffets".

But if it's not going to pass otherwise then Im still at the glass half empty.  If it's all for compromise then that's fine, but I don't understand why the compromise is between unrelated items and the public is then forced to deal with it.  I still find this as sneaky politics.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #146 on: May 17, 2016, 04:08:03 PM »
:facepalm:

It's a way to slip in laws without others noticing.  It's terrible.

Well....  glass half empty.  The glass half full version is that it is the necessary give and take to get legislation that otherwise wouldn't pass to go through.  "I will vote for your penis enlargement bill if you include a provision that provides free corn on the cob at all BBW buffets".

But if it's not going to pass otherwise then Im still at the glass half empty.  If it's all for compromise then that's fine, but I don't understand why the compromise is between unrelated items and the public is then forced to deal with it.  I still find this as sneaky politics.

Well, I'm not doing a good enough job of explaining this.  It's not nearly as shady as it sounds.   It's actually expedient.   The alternative is to table that "add on", go into committee, draft another bill, go through all the rigamarole on THAT bill - likely have a new set of compromises - and ad infinitum.  It's basically a quid pro quo that keeps things moving.  Nothing is "hidden" or "sneaky", necessarily.   

Calling to stop this is kind of like saying "okay, from now on, if you go to lunch, you can never pick something up for someone else in the office; they HAVE to go to the local deli themselves and buy their sammich."

Offline bosk1

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #147 on: May 17, 2016, 04:19:18 PM »
As someone who is intimately familiar with the process as part of my job, I feel it is incredibly shady.  Yes, it is also expedient.  But that doesn't stop it from being shady.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #148 on: May 18, 2016, 06:09:36 AM »
:facepalm:

It's a way to slip in laws without others noticing.  It's terrible.

Well....  glass half empty.  The glass half full version is that it is the necessary give and take to get legislation that otherwise wouldn't pass to go through.  "I will vote for your penis enlargement bill if you include a provision that provides free corn on the cob at all BBW buffets".

But if it's not going to pass otherwise then Im still at the glass half empty.  If it's all for compromise then that's fine, but I don't understand why the compromise is between unrelated items and the public is then forced to deal with it.  I still find this as sneaky politics.

Well, I'm not doing a good enough job of explaining this.  It's not nearly as shady as it sounds.   It's actually expedient.   The alternative is to table that "add on", go into committee, draft another bill, go through all the rigamarole on THAT bill - likely have a new set of compromises - and ad infinitum.  It's basically a quid pro quo that keeps things moving.  Nothing is "hidden" or "sneaky", necessarily.   

Calling to stop this is kind of like saying "okay, from now on, if you go to lunch, you can never pick something up for someone else in the office; they HAVE to go to the local deli themselves and buy their sammich."

To use the ACA as an example since it was brought up.  That was too long for most to even read (admitted by politicians), so putting in laws not related to the ACA is indeed very sneaky. 

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #149 on: May 18, 2016, 11:01:10 AM »
I don't know.  This isn't going to make me look too good, but so be it...

I'm just tired of all this.  I'm tired of the laws, I'm tired of people thinking they can drive behavior in this fashion, I'm tired of people thinking they can shame someone into thinking like they do, I'm tired of the pseudo-angry video blog rants, I'm tired of the knee-jerk PC responses to said videos, I'm tired of the knee-jerk blame towards "all Republicans"...

Tend your own garden.  Take your crap, shit, piss, spit whatever, wash your hands and go back to shopping, for fuck's sake. 


By the way, pleased to see (not that this is enough to dispel the myths, either on the subject or on Fox News itself):
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/16/11678218/megyn-kelly-dan-patrick-transgender-bathrooms

Same here. It's pointless bickering that's just making things worse. If I need to pee and theirs no facilities because business don't have public bathrooms, I'm going to pee in a corner or in an alley.

It's like, now they're telling us where to use a natural bodily function.

I don't have a problem with it. As, I assume, hardly anyone else before some asshat on a pedestal shouted into the megaphone.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2016, 08:02:22 AM »
I was trying to be civil about this and not come off as a dick. Truthfully, I think the whole thing is unnatural to begin with. The idea of wanting to change sexes unsettles me. That doesn't mean I would ever be rude to someone who did it, but to me, it's unnatural. They account for a percentage of a percentage of a small percentage so why are we changing the rules for them? Men's room for the men. Ladies room for the ladies. That's it. You're not going to convince me to be alright with my daughter using a toilet in one stall and a guy in the stall next to her. I don't even know how to respond to that without being harsh about it. Let's not blur these lines in society. There shouldn't be any gray area when it comes to gender yet these people have created some and I think it's unnatural.

Out of curiosity, I mentioned earlier that I've been to concerts where women said "f*ck the long line to the ladies' room, I'm going to use the men's room, where there's no lines/no waiting", and nobody cared.  If you found out one day after your daughter grew up that she'd done something similar, would you be as bothered by it as you seem to be by this discussion?  I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be, I'm just curious.

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2016, 08:29:38 AM »
I was trying to be civil about this and not come off as a dick. Truthfully, I think the whole thing is unnatural to begin with. The idea of wanting to change sexes unsettles me. That doesn't mean I would ever be rude to someone who did it, but to me, it's unnatural. They account for a percentage of a percentage of a small percentage so why are we changing the rules for them? Men's room for the men. Ladies room for the ladies. That's it. You're not going to convince me to be alright with my daughter using a toilet in one stall and a guy in the stall next to her. I don't even know how to respond to that without being harsh about it. Let's not blur these lines in society. There shouldn't be any gray area when it comes to gender yet these people have created some and I think it's unnatural.

Out of curiosity, I mentioned earlier that I've been to concerts where women said "f*ck the long line to the ladies' room, I'm going to use the men's room, where there's no lines/no waiting", and nobody cared.  If you found out one day after your daughter grew up that she'd done something similar, would you be as bothered by it as you seem to be by this discussion?  I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be, I'm just curious.

I'm also curious as to how you'd feel if a fully transitioned female, one who now has no tits, a full beard thanks to hormones, and some kind of artificial penis walked into the female bathroom after your daughter because she at one time had a vagina.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2016, 10:38:22 AM »
I say we protest this whole debate by having a massive piss event. Everyone's invited, bring lots of water. Location TBD, possibly outside on the streets or in the parks, trees need nutrients.

For me, if your really so concerned about your daughter getting raped in the restroom by a trans, why not just be a concerned parent and go with your kid to the restroom.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2016, 10:43:00 AM »
possibly outside

Nope.  Can't happen.  If you do this outside and a child happens to walk by and sees you doing so, you face the very real threat of ending up on a sexual offender list.

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2016, 10:45:31 AM »
possibly outside

Nope.  Can't happen.  If you do this outside and a child happens to walk by and sees you doing so, you face the very real threat of ending up on a sexual offender list.

There doesn't have to be a kid around. A cop can find you pissing in an ally at 3am all alone and you'll end up on a sexual offender list.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2016, 10:47:21 AM »
possibly outside

Nope.  Can't happen.  If you do this outside and a child happens to walk by and sees you doing so, you face the very real threat of ending up on a sexual offender list.

Sadly it's the truth. As I said before, overly concerned parents is the key.

But of course:
https://youtu.be/Qh2sWSVRrmo

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Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2016, 10:54:56 AM »
possibly outside

Nope.  Can't happen.  If you do this outside and a child happens to walk by and sees you doing so, you face the very real threat of ending up on a sexual offender list.

There doesn't have to be a kid around. A cop can find you pissing in an ally at 3am all alone and you'll end up on a sexual offender list.

Pretty sure I told this story before... I used to live down the street from a 747 pilot. He lest a bar drunk one night and cops found him pissing on a dumpster in a school zone. He was registered as a sex offender after that. He lost his job and his wife left him.

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2016, 11:44:36 AM »
possibly outside

Nope.  Can't happen.  If you do this outside and a child happens to walk by and sees you doing so, you face the very real threat of ending up on a sexual offender list.

There doesn't have to be a kid around. A cop can find you pissing in an ally at 3am all alone and you'll end up on a sexual offender list.

Pretty sure I told this story before... I used to live down the street from a 747 pilot. He lest a bar drunk one night and cops found him pissing on a dumpster in a school zone. He was registered as a sex offender after that. He lost his job and his wife left him.

holy shit, time for my to stop pissing in public

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2016, 12:43:52 PM »


I was trying to be civil about this and not come off as a dick. Truthfully, I think the whole thing is unnatural to begin with. The idea of wanting to change sexes unsettles me. That doesn't mean I would ever be rude to someone who did it, but to me, it's unnatural. They account for a percentage of a percentage of a small percentage so why are we changing the rules for them? Men's room for the men. Ladies room for the ladies. That's it. You're not going to convince me to be alright with my daughter using a toilet in one stall and a guy in the stall next to her. I don't even know how to respond to that without being harsh about it. Let's not blur these lines in society. There shouldn't be any gray area when it comes to gender yet these people have created some and I think it's unnatural.

Out of curiosity, I mentioned earlier that I've been to concerts where women said "f*ck the long line to the ladies' room, I'm going to use the men's room, where there's no lines/no waiting", and nobody cared.  If you found out one day after your daughter grew up that she'd done something similar, would you be as bothered by it as you seem to be by this discussion?  I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be, I'm just curious.

Yes, I would absolutely be bothered by her doing something like that. I wouldn't tear her a new one, because it's not like she killed someone, but I'd discuss it with her.

I'm also curious as to how you'd feel if a fully transitioned female, one who now has no tits, a full beard thanks to hormones, and some kind of artificial penis walked into the female bathroom after your daughter because she at one time had a vagina.

...and this is why I'm unsettled by this new fad. What the hell do you call that? Man? Woman? If you need to sit and figure out what the gender is, then there's a problem. I'm surprised that nobody else sees it this way, but there are some things that should be left alone.

You can rally your support for these people but my attention needs to go where it's important, not some immaterial issue. The media is going to place all of the focus on this issue that it wants. All it's doing is distracting people from the more important issues.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2016, 12:44:48 PM »
possibly outside

Nope.  Can't happen.  If you do this outside and a child happens to walk by and sees you doing so, you face the very real threat of ending up on a sexual offender list.

There doesn't have to be a kid around. A cop can find you pissing in an ally at 3am all alone and you'll end up on a sexual offender list.
Yeah, they like to do that to drunks down here. Best story I've heard was a chap down in Houston that answered the door wearing gym shorts. It was some woman and her daughter selling cookies, or proselytizing or some shit. The gym shorts covered him up just fine from all but the vantage point of a tiny girl. She tells mom that she could see his business and now he's registered as the sort of guy that goes around exposing himself to children.

And speaking of stupid things down here, some knucklehead confronted a butch looking woman for using the lady's room in Frisco earlier.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2016, 12:49:07 PM »
...and this is why I'm unsettled by this new fad. What the hell do you call that? Man? Woman? If you need to sit and figure out what the gender is, then there's a problem. I'm surprised that nobody else sees it this way, but there are some things that should be left alone.
I believe you just ducked the question by mocking a problem you share. Since there are undoubtedly tons of people who fit that description, what do you call them? Which head should they use? If I'm not mistaken, Chino described a post-op transsexual, who is now technically considered a male.

And for the record, I also find it troubling having to sort out what to call people. We all went round and round about this in the Jenner thread. I just understand the difficulty and try to deal with it. I don't ignore it.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2016, 12:59:50 PM »
I won't lie when I say I am kind of unsettled by transgender.  I definitely don't understand it as it appears to go against human nature, but I also understand there is more to it than just "I want to be a boy/girl"  in terms of genetics and things one cannot control.  Regardless, If someone who looks like a girl (even if they have a penis) wants to use the woman's room, who am I to stop them?  I think they've been doing this for years without notice.  The rapey folk are going to be rapey regardless of bathroom laws, I just don't see how it's a big problem. 

I also see sexuality being less of a deal as time goes on.  People wear skimpier clothing, TV shows show butts, pg13 movies have tits, sexting at the age of 12 is not uncommon.  I think the kids growing up today are much more open to sexuality and will have much less concern about who is peeing next to them.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2016, 01:00:59 PM »
...and this is why I'm unsettled by this new fad. What the hell do you call that? Man? Woman? If you need to sit and figure out what the gender is, then there's a problem. I'm surprised that nobody else sees it this way, but there are some things that should be left alone.
I believe you just ducked the question by mocking a problem you share. Since there are undoubtedly tons of people who fit that description, what do you call them? Which head should they use? If I'm not mistaken, Chino described a post-op transsexual, who is now technically considered a male.

And for the record, I also find it troubling having to sort out what to call people. We all went round and round about this in the Jenner thread. I just understand the difficulty and try to deal with it. I don't ignore it.

No, I haven't ducked the question, dearie. I believe I've answered this already in a previous post. Men use the men's room. Women use the women's room. Maybe you missed that post. This is why I was asking what to call them.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2016, 01:02:22 PM »
Out of curiosity, I mentioned earlier that I've been to concerts where women said "f*ck the long line to the ladies' room, I'm going to use the men's room, where there's no lines/no waiting", and nobody cared.  If you found out one day after your daughter grew up that she'd done something similar, would you be as bothered by it as you seem to be by this discussion?  I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be, I'm just curious.

Yes, I would absolutely be bothered by her doing something like that. I wouldn't tear her a new one, because it's not like she killed someone, but I'd discuss it with her.

Fair enough.  Thanks.

Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2016, 01:04:59 PM »


I was trying to be civil about this and not come off as a dick. Truthfully, I think the whole thing is unnatural to begin with. The idea of wanting to change sexes unsettles me. That doesn't mean I would ever be rude to someone who did it, but to me, it's unnatural. They account for a percentage of a percentage of a small percentage so why are we changing the rules for them? Men's room for the men. Ladies room for the ladies. That's it. You're not going to convince me to be alright with my daughter using a toilet in one stall and a guy in the stall next to her. I don't even know how to respond to that without being harsh about it. Let's not blur these lines in society. There shouldn't be any gray area when it comes to gender yet these people have created some and I think it's unnatural.

Out of curiosity, I mentioned earlier that I've been to concerts where women said "f*ck the long line to the ladies' room, I'm going to use the men's room, where there's no lines/no waiting", and nobody cared.  If you found out one day after your daughter grew up that she'd done something similar, would you be as bothered by it as you seem to be by this discussion?  I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be, I'm just curious.

Yes, I would absolutely be bothered by her doing something like that. I wouldn't tear her a new one, because it's not like she killed someone, but I'd discuss it with her.

I'm also curious as to how you'd feel if a fully transitioned female, one who now has no tits, a full beard thanks to hormones, and some kind of artificial penis walked into the female bathroom after your daughter because she at one time had a vagina.

...and this is why I'm unsettled by this new fad. What the hell do you call that? Man? Woman? If you need to sit and figure out what the gender is, then there's a problem. I'm surprised that nobody else sees it this way, but there are some things that should be left alone.


I think this whole debate is just as stupid as you do. Believe me. But I need to put myself in other people's shoes. You say it's a problem if someone needs to sit and figure out what gender they are, but there's got to be more to it than that. I can't for the life of me ever imagine chopping off my dick and asking a doctor to build me a vagina. I can't even begin to fathom making that decision in any kind of serious manner, but there are people who do, and they do so for reasons I don't understand. Whatever those reasons are, regardless of how much I don't understand them, they must be important enough for someone to be willing to completely alter their appearance and mutilate their bodies to feel a small sense of normalcy. Who am I to shit on them for it and declare it as not normal? Pretty much every woman on earth makes themselves unnatural every morning in order to feel a certain way. Many have their lips done, tits enlarged, tattoos inked, hair color changed, colored contacts, blush, piercings, etc.. just to feel a certain way and obtain a physical version of the mental version they have of themselves in their minds. Yet when one goes a little further and decides to go the other way with it (more masculine than feminine), the world freaks out. That's the part I don't understand. We have a small sliver of time to experience life and to try and enjoy it in the process, in the grand scheme of things, a male wanting to live as a female seems like something that we shouldn't even waste our time worrying about. I'd be way more concerned about my daughter getting date raped in college than I would about someone abusing this law in an attempt to rape or sexually assault a family member in a public bathroom that I'm standing right outside.
 

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2016, 01:17:13 PM »
*snip*

I think this whole debate is just as stupid as you do. Believe me. But I need to put myself in other people's shoes. You say it's a problem if someone needs to sit and figure out what gender they are, but there's got to be more to it than that. I can't for the life of me ever imagine chopping off my dick and asking a doctor to build me a vagina. I can't even begin to fathom making that decision in any kind of serious manner, but there are people who do, and they do so for reasons I don't understand. Whatever those reasons are, regardless of how much I don't understand them, they must be important enough for someone to be willing to completely alter their appearance and mutilate their bodies to feel a small sense of normalcy. Who am I to shit on them for it and declare it as not normal? Pretty much every woman on earth makes themselves unnatural every morning in order to feel a certain way. Many have their lips done, tits enlarged, tattoos inked, hair color changed, colored contacts, blush, piercings, etc.. just to feel a certain way and obtain a physical version of the mental version they have of themselves in their minds. Yet when one goes a little further and decides to go the other way with it (more masculine than feminine), the world freaks out. That's the part I don't understand. We have a small sliver of time to experience life and to try and enjoy it in the process, in the grand scheme of things, a male wanting to live as a female seems like something that we shouldn't even waste our time worrying about. I'd be way more concerned about my daughter getting date raped in college than I would about someone abusing this law in an attempt to rape or sexually assault a family member in a public bathroom that I'm standing right outside.

I would never be rude to them because I didn't agree with their choice. Regardless of what they do, they're still human beings. However, they decided to do something which blurs the lines of basic knowledge - being either male or female. That's why, to me, getting a breast enlargement and having one's lips injected are a completely different animal from changing your gender.   That doesn't sit well with me, but I won't lose sleep over it. It's just how I feel.


Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #166 on: May 19, 2016, 01:25:36 PM »
^^^ Chino, that's absolutely how I feel.   I have a step-daughter who is a senior in high school and a daughter that is a freshman, and let me tell you this:   for every one or two dudes in each state that is using "gender-confused" as a means to coerce young girls into a sexual act, there are 25 football players, 10 lacrosse players, 20 hockey players, and another 30 or 40 wanna-be-rock stars in each HIGH SCHOOL that are simply using their very existence to do the exact same thing.   

Not all, not even most, but some of these kids today are pigs.  I've already had to tell two kids at the high school in my town that they figure out what it really means to be a man or they're going to answer to the police.   I shit you not.   I actually had to go to the police on another (tangentially related) matter, and in the conversation he mentioned the website that is kind of sort of like craigslist for selfie pictures of girls.  It's all anonymous, and divided up by town, and in some cases, by school.   I didn't go on - for obvious reasons (the "it's research!" didn't work for Pete Townsend, so I'm not going to chance it myself) - but my stepdaughter did, and it was sickening how often she said "whoa, I know her!". 

While I feel bad for people dealing with transgender issues (and believe there may be ways of dealing with it psychologically) this issue to me is evidence of a stark and startling lack of perspective. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #167 on: May 19, 2016, 01:35:19 PM »

While I feel bad for people dealing with transgender issues (and believe there may be ways of dealing with it psychologically) 

Could you elaborate on this for me? Thanks.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #168 on: May 19, 2016, 02:39:10 PM »

While I feel bad for people dealing with transgender issues (and believe there may be ways of dealing with it psychologically) 

Could you elaborate on this for me? Thanks.

Ugh, this is destined to be misunderstood, so I'll start with saying that I do not believe it is something that can be "cured" or that is a choice.  Having said that, I do think that to a large degree it is a psychological condition as opposed to a physical one.   Meaning, it's not a case of "too much of hormone x" or something similar (which would, presumably, be solved by physical means).  Given that, this isn't a "natural" condition in the same way as homosexuality is, which can be looked at as a point on a continuum.   I think that more research is necessary on the psychological level, and there are probably a fair number of opportunities to help with the mental transition.  It is my understanding that that aspect is as important (if not more so) than the physical one, and may help to diffuse some of the more controversial aspects of this.

Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #169 on: May 19, 2016, 02:41:19 PM »
Ah. Well, the psychological community does not see it as something to be dealt with psychologically. I could go into more detail, but meh. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification. :)
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #170 on: May 19, 2016, 02:42:57 PM »
Ah. Well, the psychological community does not see it as something to be dealt with psychologically. I could go into more detail, but meh. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification. :)

Please do so; that's my understanding.  I'd rather be told (shown) I'm wrong so I can be right the next time. 

And for the record, I'm not suggesting it can be "dealt with" (i.e. solved) psychologically, I'm suggesting that more can be done to help psychologically.  Big difference. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2016, 02:48:23 PM »
Ah. Well, the psychological community does not see it as something to be dealt with psychologically. I could go into more detail, but meh. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification. :)

Please do so; that's my understanding.  I'd rather be told (shown) I'm wrong so I can be right the next time. 

And for the record, I'm not suggesting it can be "dealt with" (i.e. solved) psychologically, I'm suggesting that more can be done to help psychologically.  Big difference.

We don't know the root of homosexuality, just like we don't know the root of being transgender. It might be physical, it might not be. In the end, it doesn't make a difference. There is absolutely no way, psychologically, to help a truly transgender person without advocating self-deception, repression, and a plethora of other very unhealthy means just for the sake of stopping them from making a decision about themselves. And the diagnosis needed for being considered truly transgender, and being possible for surgery is Gender Dysphoria, and I can assure you that it's not even remotely close to "well I guess I feel like a woman cause I like to put on dresses" or whatever other random things have been said about what constitutes being transgender. In fact, it's quite difficult to procure that diagnosis.
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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #172 on: May 19, 2016, 02:58:51 PM »
Ah. Well, the psychological community does not see it as something to be dealt with psychologically. I could go into more detail, but meh. Anyway, I appreciate the clarification. :)

Please do so; that's my understanding.  I'd rather be told (shown) I'm wrong so I can be right the next time. 

And for the record, I'm not suggesting it can be "dealt with" (i.e. solved) psychologically, I'm suggesting that more can be done to help psychologically.  Big difference.

We don't know the root of homosexuality, just like we don't know the root of being transgender. It might be physical, it might not be. In the end, it doesn't make a difference. There is absolutely no way, psychologically, to help a truly transgender person without advocating self-deception, repression, and a plethora of other very unhealthy means just for the sake of stopping them from making a decision about themselves. And the diagnosis needed for being considered truly transgender, and being possible for surgery is Gender Dysphoria, and I can assure you that it's not even remotely close to "well I guess I feel like a woman cause I like to put on dresses" or whatever other random things have been said about what constitutes being transgender. In fact, it's quite difficult to procure that diagnosis.

This is exactly what I don't understand and I gather I will likely never understand it because I am not transgender and have no idea what it feels like to be that way.  It's also part of my reasoning on not giving transgender people a hard time even if I don't get it and as I said before, it feels unnatural because it seems to go against human nature, but I can't put myself in these shoes so I feel like I'll never truly understand it.  But not understanding is not a reason for hatred or negativity.

Offline Adami

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #173 on: May 19, 2016, 03:00:03 PM »
But not understanding is not a reason for hatred or negativity.

Thank you for that.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Transgender people and bathrooms
« Reply #174 on: May 20, 2016, 06:17:58 AM »
I couldn't resist.