Poll

Pick the view that most closely resembles your own.

Pro-Choice (no exceptions)
Pro-Choice (exceptions: late term, other)
Pro-Choice for thee, but not for me (Would not personally do)
Pro-Choice (Purely pragmatic. Collision of three rights. Chose winner)
Pro-Life (Purely pragmatic.  Collision of three rights.  Chose winner)
Pro-Life for me, but not for thee (same as #3, just different label)
Pro-Life (exceptions: rape, incest, other)
Pro-Life (no exceptions)

Author Topic: IssueTalk: Abortion  (Read 5252 times)

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Offline Harmony

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #175 on: April 11, 2016, 10:11:47 AM »
So bosk1, did I misunderstand this post of yours?  "The fact that God forbids murdering human beings is sufficient."

This sounded to me like you were suggesting that what is written in the bible is "sufficient" argument against abortion.  If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

But that is where my comment about not making that book dictate my life came from.  It wasn't intended as a "straw man argument" but was a direct response to your comment I quoted above.

Offline Rick

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #176 on: April 11, 2016, 10:27:19 AM »
1a.  Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice on a personal level?
Pro choice, no exceptions.
1b.  Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice on a legal level?
Pro choice, within 24 weeks. (24 weeks is roughly when neural development allows for some form of consciousness. You have months before this time to reach a decision).
2.  Did you arrive at your decision based on religion, science, legal or emotion (or other)
Rational thought.
3.  Do you accept the merits of the other side?  Explain.
I don't see fit to tell people what to do with their bodies. If they want to get rid of a bunch of cells that's growing inside them, they can do so - yes, even if that bunch of cells has the /capacity/ to grow into a new sentient being - at the stage of termination it is not autonomous.
4.  What are some of your exceptions:  none, rape, incest, late term, mother's health. baby's health
People can do it for whatever reason they want. Personally, I don't want to be a parent, so wouldn't want to father a child who would grow up with a parent who didn't want it.
5.  Which rights should be taken into consideration: Mother, Father, Child?  Equal consideration or weighted?
If people want a child, and want to give a child a good life - then they should go pro-create. If people can't pro-create themselves, there are plenty of orphaned kids around the world for them to adopt. No-one should be forced to be a parent, and it's unfair for a child to be given a bad upbringing by parents who don't want it.
6.  Do you find your decision changing over time?
No. I realised that the pro-life stance was patriarchal and damaging when I was a kid first thinking about it.
7.  When do you consider the pregnancy life?  Conception, birth, heart beat, live outside the womb, other?
Neural development; consciousness. In earlier weeks, there may be a bit of neural development that allow incredibly basic reaction to physical stimuli; but that is not to be mistaken for consciousness.
8.  If somebody pushed/punched you or a loved one maliciously resulting in the end of the pregnancy, should a legal count be considered for the pregnancy itself or is battery only on the mother resulting in a battery charge with possible low to no prison time.
This question is really badly worded. If I understand it, it's also got far too many unmentioned possible variables to give a single answer to.

Offline bosk1

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #177 on: April 11, 2016, 10:32:25 AM »
So bosk1, did I misunderstand this post of yours?  "The fact that God forbids murdering human beings is sufficient."

This sounded to me like you were suggesting that what is written in the bible is "sufficient" argument against abortion.  If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

But that is where my comment about not making that book dictate my life came from.  It wasn't intended as a "straw man argument" but was a direct response to your comment I quoted above.

No, as you restate it, I think that is correct.  But the problems I had with the post are:
1.  I think some of the details you actually posted in response to that were straw man arguments that went a different direction. 
2.  I felt like your post unintentionally trivialized the point I was making rather than actually addressing it. 

But that said, we are two people debating a hot-button topic on an Internet forum, so it is easy to talk past one another and have the things we type be misconstrued or come across with a tone different than what we intend, so I don't mean to be accusatory.  Just saying that is how the post read to me. 

But I also want to say that that particular part of my post (to paraphrase and oversimplify it a bit, the "God said it; that settles it" part) was simply meant to say that, after grappling with some of the extremely difficult nuances of the issue, what I personally have to fall back on for me is that I have to just trust what I believe God says about the issue.  I am not saying that makes it an open and shut case for everybody.  I don't expect it to.  Just saying that, at the end of the day, that is the only framework *I* have that can get me to an answer I can be remotely satisfied with on the "abortion/not abortion" issue.  Hopefully, I am making sense here.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #178 on: April 11, 2016, 10:32:56 AM »
I'd also like to add a question about infertility clinics.  For those of you who believe life begins at conception, are you actively trying to stop people from using certain fertility services or closing down those clinics?  I don't have the exact stats but I do have a relative who used IVF to get pregnant which resulted in the cryopreservation of about a dozen blastocysts.  These were subsequently destroyed a few years later which from what I've been told is not an uncommon occurrence.

Offline bosk1

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #179 on: April 11, 2016, 10:35:38 AM »
I'd also like to add a question about infertility clinics.  For those of you who believe life begins at conception, are you actively trying to stop people from using certain fertility services or closing down those clinics?  I don't have the exact stats but I do have a relative who used IVF to get pregnant which resulted in the cryopreservation of about a dozen blastocysts.  These were subsequently destroyed a few years later which from what I've been told is not an uncommon occurrence.

I obviously can't speak for others, but as for me:  I'm not "actively trying to stop" anything.  I do morally/ethically have a problem with what you described.  But it is even fuzzier than the original issue this thread is about, and I have to say I don't have the answer.  I can only say how I personally feel about it and admit that, again, there are valid points on both sides of the issue that give me pause.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #180 on: April 11, 2016, 10:36:45 AM »
I am not saying that makes it an open and shut case for everybody.  I don't expect it to.  Just saying that, at the end of the day, that is the only framework *I* have that can get me to an answer I can be remotely satisfied with on the "abortion/not abortion" issue.  Hopefully, I am making sense here.

Yes, you are making sense and I did misunderstand your post because it did seem as though you were making an "open and shut case for everybody."  So the reason I went off in other directions were to illustrate that the bible is open to interpretation and what one person reads into it, another person doesn't.  Hopefully that helps you to see why I mentioned other subjects within the book that can be - and often are - hotly debated.  Personally I don't care how someone else wants to interpret their book up until the point their interpretation is put in place of mine. 

Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2016, 11:00:35 AM »
3.  Do you accept the merits of the other side?  Explain.
I don't see fit to tell people what to do with their bodies. If they want to get rid of a bunch of cells that's growing inside them, they can do so - yes, even if that bunch of cells has the /capacity/ to grow into a new sentient being - at the stage of termination it is not autonomous.

I see this argument often in terms of abortion, and I am not saying that it doesn't have some merit (or singling you out), but it does bring up questions to me.

As a society, we already do decide what people can and can't do with their bodies. All the time. Sometimes in terms of legality and creating laws so people can't do things, sometimes in terms of monetary penalty to discourage action. So the question is, where is this line? Is it at some point of real or perceived societal benefit or harm that we decide, "No, you can no longer take this action." ? Are individual rights and societal benefit on the same side in terms of abortion? (I realize that a libertarian might claim that individual rights are always a benefit to society.)

Offline Rick

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2016, 11:07:22 AM »
3.  Do you accept the merits of the other side?  Explain.
I don't see fit to tell people what to do with their bodies. If they want to get rid of a bunch of cells that's growing inside them, they can do so - yes, even if that bunch of cells has the /capacity/ to grow into a new sentient being - at the stage of termination it is not autonomous.

I see this argument often in terms of abortion, and I am not saying that it doesn't have some merit (or singling you out), but it does bring up questions to me.

As a society, we already do decide what people can and can't do with their bodies. All the time. Sometimes in terms of legality and creating laws so people can't do things, sometimes in terms of monetary penalty to discourage action. So the question is, where is this line? Is it at some point of real or perceived societal benefit or harm that we decide, "No, you can no longer take this action." ? Are individual rights and societal benefit on the same side in terms of abortion? (I realize that a libertarian might claim that individual rights are always a benefit to society.)

There are a lot of other laws around what people can do with their bodies I disagree with. The fact that the terminally ill people can't choose assisted-suicide is ridiculous.

Just because something is a 'law' doesn't make it 'right'. Also, laws are not the same worldwide.

If what you choose to do with your body doesn't cause harm to anyone else, go ahead and do it. If you want to terminate the growth of a fetus inside you to avoid it having a crap life because you're fully aware you're not ready to be a parent, go for it. To me, it's more harmful to give birth to a child you don't want.

Offline Stadler

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2016, 12:32:44 PM »
First off, that is not remotely true and never has been, despite it being a popular (although intellectually lazy) buzz phrase of those who are opposed to religion. 

Second, this thread is not limited to legislating abortion.  You were discussing the...for lack of a better term...morality of eating pork, for example.  Again, my point simply is that placing the lives or "feelings" or "rights" of pigs above those of humans is to have a flawed moral scale that makes even discussing the issue of abortion extremely difficult.

If by "religious" you mean Biblical, I agree with you. Like I said before: Our (U.S.) laws were founded out of the Bible, and In many ways and many areas it's something we really need to back to. I would modify a few things. For example, I think they used to "execute" children for disobeying the 5th commandment, and if they killed people for violating ANY commandment, I would be dead MANY times over because of that one, as well as the 3rd, 4th, 8th. If we made them laws that we were expected to LIVE by, and imposed a small penalty, such as fines & jail time, it might become second nature for people to go back to being good to each other, among other benefits. But I was just using the ten commandments as  an example, and yes I am aware of what JESUS said about the ten commandments. So it would not be wrong to say I have "broken" ALL of them in my time.

I think this is an inaccurate statement.   Perhaps there are correlations.  Perhaps the settlers ("We're settlers, son. We settle!") based their laws on those elucidated in the Bible, but Adams, Jefferson, et al. did NOT claim the Bible as a source for the rights that form the basis of our criminal justice system.   By and large (I say that because I'm sure there is an exception somewhere; perhaps temperance) the laws of the United States are based on the rights and infringement of rights granted to us and inalienable (this is where the "god" comes in).   We aren't prohibited from committing murder because of the Bible or the 5th Commandment, but rather because to do so is to wrongly take someone else's inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  In the various extemporaneous explanations of both the terms of and requirement for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, there is almost NO discussion of religion whatsoever (note I distinguish between the ideas of religion and god).

Offline Stadler

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2016, 12:40:05 PM »
I'm not sure if I'm the only woman on this thread yet but can I just ask a couple of questions?

Do you believe if abortion were made illegal that they would stop?  If not, what do you think would be the outcome of illegal abortions?

What should happen to any woman who seeks an illegal abortion?  Jail time?  For how long?  Fines?  How much?

Who should police women's menstrual cycles to ensure no embryos were "aborted"?

If birth control fails and a woman - a married woman - has a health condition making carrying to term potentially life-threatening to her, are you all for her risking her life?  How about if she has other children to take care of?

Are politicians and participants on a message boards more qualified to care for the reproductive health of women than their doctors are?  Would you feel fine with allowing politicians to control your reproductive healthcare over your own physician?

If a woman has no interest in caring for a child and/or has a physical or mental disability and we force her to bear a child against her will that she then opts to keep vs. adopting out, what do you suppose is going to happen to that child long term?

If there are hundreds of thousands of unwanted children languishing in foster care now, who do you see stepping up to care for the unwanted offspring of these women who seek abortions today?

As a general proposition, I liked your questions, and have no problem with the implication and insinuations of most of them.  But this one bothered me, not because it is "anti-women" or "pro-choice" or whatever, but because it changes the rules midway.

There are consequences for things - which we all know - but more importantly, there is no guarantee of our preferred outcome.  It is - depending on your want - god's will or simply dumb luck that MY condom never broke, but someone else's did.   But we have to realize at some point that we have a responsibility when we put Penis A in to Vagina B.   I do understand (as a parent of a 15 year old) that this is age dependent, and that things aren't perfect in the real world.  But your question goes beyond that:   if the mom-to-be opts - of her own free will (assuming competence) - that she will NOT put the baby up for adoption, but keep it, that's a whole separate question apart from abortion.    I feel bad for that child, but we cannot have the mindset of "don't worry, be happy; we'll subsidize the kid if you want to fully and completely abdicate your responsibility as an adult." 

Offline Tick

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2016, 12:42:07 PM »
I went pro life with exceptions of rape and incest...
I feel like no exceptions isn't right for the woman even if its wrong in the eyes of God. I'm not judge and jury for mankind. I do hate abortion very much.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #186 on: April 11, 2016, 12:45:13 PM »
Look, I respect that it's the word of god to you. To anyone who isn't a Christian is quite literally a book. I'm not being disrespectful by calling the bible a book.

Uh, I AM a Christian (Catholic) and yet I believe it is a book.  It is a book compiled, largely by Constantinople, to represent the word of God back in about 400 AD in order to codify the beliefs of what became the Catholic Church.  I don't think I am committing heresy by suggesting that the message has been touched (and therefore by definition, compromised) by human hands.   

Offline Chino

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #187 on: April 11, 2016, 12:51:12 PM »
I went pro life with exceptions of rape and incest...
I feel like no exceptions isn't right for the woman even if its wrong in the eyes of God. I'm not judge and jury for mankind. I do hate abortion very much.

This I think is the most important thing that can be said when having this discussion. There are a few topics I believe this logic needs to be applied to, and abortion is way up near the top.

This is a topic in which no matter how long the discussion continues, we will never reach a consensus. It just won't. People will always be for or against for various reasons, and there's no way to satisfy everyone. There's no piece of legislation that will make everyone happy, unfortunately.  If someone believes that a month old fertilized egg isn't a person and they feel no guilt in stopping the cellular division permanently, fine, that's their prerogative. They should in no way be trying to convince people of religion or morality based (completely subjective) beliefs into their line of thinking. On the other side of the coin, if you are against abortions for religious reasons, I feel like it is not your job in any way to interfere with those who do not think like you. If killing a month old fetus is indeed wrong in the eyes of god, let him deal with it when the time comes.

We have wasted so much tax payer money and government resources on this debate just to keep going in circles. That time and money needs to be spent elsewhere.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 01:05:48 PM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #188 on: April 11, 2016, 12:55:35 PM »
I went pro life with exceptions of rape and incest...
I feel like no exceptions isn't right for the woman even if its wrong in the eyes of God. I'm not judge and jury for mankind. I do hate abortion very much.

This I think is the most important thing that can be said when having this discussion. There are a few topics I believe this logic needs to be applied to, and abortion is way up near the top.

This is a topic in which no matter how long the discussion continues, we will never reach a consensus. It just won't. People will always be for or against for various reasons, and there's no way to satisfy everyone. There's no piece of legislation that will make everyone happy, unfortunately.  If someone believes that a month old fertilized egg isn't a person and they feel no guilt in stopping the cellular division permanently, fine, that's their prerogative. They should in no way be trying to convince people of religion or morality based (completely subjective) beliefs into their line of thinking. On the other side of the coin, if you are against abortions for religious reasons, I feel like it is not your job in any way to interfere with those who do not think like you. If killing a month old fetus is indeed wrong in the eyes of god, let him deal with when the time comes.

We have wasted so much tax payer money and government resources on this debate just to keep going in circles. That time and money needs to be spent elsewhere.

Live and let live, or not.  :biggrin: But seriously, I agree.  Part of why it should all just be legal.  The ones who are against it can continue not having abortions and the ones who need/want an abortion can have a safe way to do it. I hate the "shaming" that this country does to people.

Offline Stadler

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #189 on: April 11, 2016, 01:56:35 PM »
I went pro life with exceptions of rape and incest...
I feel like no exceptions isn't right for the woman even if its wrong in the eyes of God. I'm not judge and jury for mankind. I do hate abortion very much.

This I think is the most important thing that can be said when having this discussion. There are a few topics I believe this logic needs to be applied to, and abortion is way up near the top.

This is a topic in which no matter how long the discussion continues, we will never reach a consensus. It just won't. People will always be for or against for various reasons, and there's no way to satisfy everyone. There's no piece of legislation that will make everyone happy, unfortunately.  If someone believes that a month old fertilized egg isn't a person and they feel no guilt in stopping the cellular division permanently, fine, that's their prerogative. They should in no way be trying to convince people of religion or morality based (completely subjective) beliefs into their line of thinking. On the other side of the coin, if you are against abortions for religious reasons, I feel like it is not your job in any way to interfere with those who do not think like you. If killing a month old fetus is indeed wrong in the eyes of god, let him deal with when the time comes.

We have wasted so much tax payer money and government resources on this debate just to keep going in circles. That time and money needs to be spent elsewhere.

Live and let live, or not.  :biggrin: But seriously, I agree.  Part of why it should all just be legal.  The ones who are against it can continue not having abortions and the ones who need/want an abortion can have a safe way to do it. I hate the "shaming" that this country does to people.

Okay, so given that you two are both right (and for the record, I think you are), why is there still a debate?   What is it about this topic as much as any other that engenders this assertion of control over others?  Honestly, I don't say this much because I don't want to offend (or sound too much like an OSWG*) but my position on abortion is almost all based on the libertarian aspects of it; if I was a woman, I would be more pissed off by being told what I can or cannot do with my body than any moral or religious arguments. 


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Offline cramx3

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #190 on: April 11, 2016, 02:19:51 PM »
why is there still a debate? 

Because there is a grey area of what a fetus actually is and therefore the morality of an abortion becomes questionable to many.  It's easy to say "live and let live", but to some, an abortion, is "not letting live". 

Offline chaossystem

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #191 on: April 11, 2016, 02:21:36 PM »
I don't think it's always as simple as "men vs. women" or "men trying to dictate what women are and are not allowed to do with their OWN bodies." I have known my share of women who are pro-life. Also, of course, a lot of men who are NOT. I've had conversations with many ladies who's expression of their views have lead me to believe that they don't even UNDERSTAND the whole "pro-choice argument," or why anyone would ever want to DO that to themselves (their bodies) and (kill) their unborn children. I have known at least one couple where SHE was pro-life and HE was NOT.

And don't call yourself PRO-CHOICE if you're going to come back at me and say "Well THESE women are just BRAIN-WASHED, and letting their MEN do all of their thinking FOR them!" Or anything like that, because if you truly ARE for freedom of thought and expression, etc., then you need to have as much respect for that way of thinking as you expect those of us who ARE pro-life to have for yours.

To give just one more example of what I'm talking about...I also know of this one girl who was married and pregnant, and was about to have an abortion, mostly because the marriage was falling apart,but changed her mind mostly because she concluded on her own that the whole "pro-choice/abortion on demand" thing is just a big money-making scheme. Her words, not mine. I didn't even meet her or get to know her until AFTER her baby son was born.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #192 on: April 11, 2016, 02:24:40 PM »
No, for clarity, I'm asking why we are so interested in what the person next to us is doing.  I know plenty of women who are pro-life.  I get that part.  What I meant was, if a woman - or a man, we're entitled to opinions on issues that don't immediately impact us on a day-to-day basis - has a position on pro-life/pro-choice, what is it that makes them feel entitled to make that decision for someone else? 

In what other subject is the desire to dictate OTHER people's behavior so strong?   

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #193 on: April 11, 2016, 02:25:31 PM »
Because there is a grey area of what a fetus actually is

Really? A grey area? By the time the baby reaches Fetus stage it's a baby human. There's really no grey area unless you're referring to morally....which is really the whole argument anyway. Someone who doesn't mind abortion isn't going to be put off by whatever stage it's in.....and someone who thinks it's wrong disagrees with killing the baby at any stage.
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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #194 on: April 11, 2016, 02:45:27 PM »
Because there is a grey area of what a fetus actually is

Really? A grey area? By the time the baby reaches Fetus stage it's a baby human. There's really no grey area unless you're referring to morally....which is really the whole argument anyway. Someone who doesn't mind abortion isn't going to be put off by whatever stage it's in.....and someone who thinks it's wrong disagrees with killing the baby at any stage.

Well if it was that simple then there wouldn't be a debate.  But not everyone agrees with you.  Not the best science, but a simple google search shows how divided people are on that.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-a-fetus-a-person

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #195 on: April 11, 2016, 03:53:28 PM »
Because there is a grey area of what a fetus actually is

Really? A grey area? By the time the baby reaches Fetus stage it's a baby human. There's really no grey area unless you're referring to morally....which is really the whole argument anyway. Someone who doesn't mind abortion isn't going to be put off by whatever stage it's in.....and someone who thinks it's wrong disagrees with killing the baby at any stage.

Well if it was that simple then there wouldn't be a debate.  But not everyone agrees with you.  Not the best science, but a simple google search shows how divided people are on that.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-a-fetus-a-person

Yeah....I know it's not that simple. And that's the question isn't it?  Is a Fetus a person. Whereas I could type five paragraphs explaining why I believe it is the next person could type five explaining why it's not.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #196 on: April 11, 2016, 04:06:17 PM »
That's a good way of putting it. But at least HALF of the arguments I've been reading on here seem to be saying "I KNOW it's a person, but I'm STILL pro-choice!" The reasons seem to vary from "population control" to "Woman's right to do whatever she wants with her own BODY.." to GOD knows what.

By the way, when you say you KNOW it's alive, but a woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her own body, not only does that argument contradict itself, it's not even true. There are LOTS of things that people do or would do with their own bodies that are illegal. And many of them are a LOT less (at least potentially) harmful than abortion.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #197 on: April 11, 2016, 04:16:58 PM »
I'm probably one of the more tame PRO LIFE people out there. I believe it's a baby...I do. But, as it stands....it's not illegal to have an abortion and I'm not down with trying to tell people what to do with their lives. We all get to make our choices, and have to live with the results of those decisions.

 I wish there would be more education for women, especially the younger crowd who are getting these abortions. Not only to the state of the baby when they are aborting it but the psychological impact it'll have on them. You can't discount the negative impact of the physical and mental trauma that a woman goes through....

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Offline cramx3

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #198 on: April 11, 2016, 05:28:17 PM »
Because there is a grey area of what a fetus actually is

Really? A grey area? By the time the baby reaches Fetus stage it's a baby human. There's really no grey area unless you're referring to morally....which is really the whole argument anyway. Someone who doesn't mind abortion isn't going to be put off by whatever stage it's in.....and someone who thinks it's wrong disagrees with killing the baby at any stage.

Well if it was that simple then there wouldn't be a debate.  But not everyone agrees with you.  Not the best science, but a simple google search shows how divided people are on that.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-a-fetus-a-person

Yeah....I know it's not that simple. And that's the question isn't it?  Is a Fetus a person. Whereas I could type five paragraphs explaining why I believe it is the next person could type five explaining why it's not.

It's one of many questions, but to me, I find that to be the root of the abortion debate. 

I'm probably one of the more tame PRO LIFE people out there. I believe it's a baby...I do. But, as it stands....it's not illegal to have an abortion and I'm not down with trying to tell people what to do with their lives. We all get to make our choices, and have to live with the results of those decisions.

 I wish there would be more education for women, especially the younger crowd who are getting these abortions. Not only to the state of the baby when they are aborting it but the psychological impact it'll have on them. You can't discount the negative impact of the physical and mental trauma that a woman goes through....

I admire your stance of "not down with trying to tell people what to do with their lives" and also I think it's a good point about the aftereffect.  I think there's potential for some serious mental trauma as well.

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #199 on: April 11, 2016, 05:40:13 PM »
I think there's potential for some serious mental trauma as well.

I had a girlfriend of two years back in my early 20's who had an abortion from a relationship before me. I didn't know that until a few months into our relationship. She was severely traumatized. She'd cry about it all the time....get wasted and just say over and over while crying "I'm so sorry sweet baby".....it was brutal on her. She'd ask me all the time..."will you have a baby with me?"....meaning like, then....but I was like 24. It was tough to watch her go through.

Turns out that the dudes parents found out she was pregnant and basically held her hostage one afternoon for hours telling her how she couldn't have the baby....that it'd ruin their sons life and that they were too young...etc etc. They basically forced her to do it.....took her to the clinic and paid for it, the whole nine yards. She was severely mentally traumatized....I often think of her and wonder how she's doing now days.
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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #200 on: April 11, 2016, 05:52:49 PM »
I think there's potential for some serious mental trauma as well.

I had a girlfriend of two years back in my early 20's who had an abortion from a relationship before me. I didn't know that until a few months into our relationship. She was severely traumatized. She'd cry about it all the time....get wasted and just say over and over while crying "I'm so sorry sweet baby".....it was brutal on her. She'd ask me all the time..."will you have a baby with me?"....meaning like, then....but I was like 24. It was tough to watch her go through.

Turns out that the dudes parents found out she was pregnant and basically held her hostage one afternoon for hours telling her how she couldn't have the baby....that it'd ruin their sons life and that they were too young...etc etc. They basically forced her to do it.....took her to the clinic and paid for it, the whole nine yards. She was severely mentally traumatized....I often think of her and wonder how she's doing now days.

That's so messed up.   >:(  (the parents heavily influencing her decision)

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #201 on: April 11, 2016, 05:55:59 PM »
I think there's potential for some serious mental trauma as well.

I had a girlfriend of two years back in my early 20's who had an abortion from a relationship before me. I didn't know that until a few months into our relationship. She was severely traumatized. She'd cry about it all the time....get wasted and just say over and over while crying "I'm so sorry sweet baby".....it was brutal on her. She'd ask me all the time..."will you have a baby with me?"....meaning like, then....but I was like 24. It was tough to watch her go through.

Turns out that the dudes parents found out she was pregnant and basically held her hostage one afternoon for hours telling her how she couldn't have the baby....that it'd ruin their sons life and that they were too young...etc etc. They basically forced her to do it.....took her to the clinic and paid for it, the whole nine yards. She was severely mentally traumatized....I often think of her and wonder how she's doing now days.

That's so messed up.   >:(  (the parents heavily influencing her decision)

Yep. They basically hazed her for 12 hours....scared her....brain washed and then executed their plan the next day. I'm not lying....the chic was traumatized from the ENTIRE experience.
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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #202 on: April 11, 2016, 06:08:24 PM »
I can see just being pregnant as traumatizing, having a family come after you like that is just insane.  I hope they feel even worse about their actions than your friend felt about going through with it.

Even as being pro-choice, I firmly believe it is not the man's choice in any regard.  Purely the woman's.  So that's part of the reason why I am pro-choice, I am not a woman and it is not really my decision to make.  My parents are strongly pro-life and have always taught me that if I were ever in that situation I would need to man up and I think I would if the woman's choice was for life.

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #203 on: April 11, 2016, 07:43:40 PM »
I'm probably one of the more tame PRO LIFE people out there. I believe it's a baby...I do. But, as it stands....it's not illegal to have an abortion and I'm not down with trying to tell people what to do with their lives. We all get to make our choices, and have to live with the results of those decisions.

 I wish there would be more education for women, especially the younger crowd who are getting these abortions. Not only to the state of the baby when they are aborting it but the psychological impact it'll have on them. You can't discount the negative impact of the physical and mental trauma that a woman goes through....

I apologize for repeating what I've already said, but I wish there was a way to get the truth out to everybody. I know a lot of people hate the idea of putting out "gory pictures and films" for others to be forced to watch, but there has GOT to be a way to make the father AND the mother aware of what they're doing and what they're killing in these situations. It often has a traumatic effect on the fathers as well, and one of the worst things about the current law is that even if they're married, the mother can have the baby killed without even informing her husband that she was pregnant.
So as far as "not being down with telling people what to do with their lives" is concerned, that only "works" if ALL abortions were done in secret, and NO one who would EVER be effected by the "choice" finds out about it at ANY time after it happens. Otherwise at least one other person WILL be affected by the death of the baby.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #204 on: April 11, 2016, 08:33:52 PM »
I think there's potential for some serious mental trauma as well.

I had a girlfriend of two years back in my early 20's who had an abortion from a relationship before me. I didn't know that until a few months into our relationship. She was severely traumatized. She'd cry about it all the time....get wasted and just say over and over while crying "I'm so sorry sweet baby".....it was brutal on her. She'd ask me all the time..."will you have a baby with me?"....meaning like, then....but I was like 24. It was tough to watch her go through.

Turns out that the dudes parents found out she was pregnant and basically held her hostage one afternoon for hours telling her how she couldn't have the baby....that it'd ruin their sons life and that they were too young...etc etc. They basically forced her to do it.....took her to the clinic and paid for it, the whole nine yards. She was severely mentally traumatized....I often think of her and wonder how she's doing now days.

That's so messed up.   >:(  (the parents heavily influencing her decision)

"influence" my ASS!! You need to call this exactly what it IS: short of holding a GUN to her head, or threatening her life in some OTHER way, they FORCED this girl to have an abortion! Doesn't sound very "pro-choice" to ME!!! At the very least these sick fucks should have been prosecuted for kidnapping and unlawful detainment!
I can't stop the world from turning around, or the pull of the moon on the tide, but I don't believe that we're in this alone, I believe we're along for the ride...

Offline Chino

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #205 on: April 12, 2016, 07:50:05 AM »
Relevant?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/colorado-planned-parenthood-attack_us_570cb205e4b01422324a0b92

Quote
The man accused of fatally shooting three people at a Colorado Planned Parenthood clinic last year said he hoped that when he died fetuses in heaven would thank him for stopping more abortions


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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #206 on: April 12, 2016, 08:39:00 AM »
I'm probably one of the more tame PRO LIFE people out there. I believe it's a baby...I do. But, as it stands....it's not illegal to have an abortion and I'm not down with trying to tell people what to do with their lives. We all get to make our choices, and have to live with the results of those decisions.

 I wish there would be more education for women, especially the younger crowd who are getting these abortions. Not only to the state of the baby when they are aborting it but the psychological impact it'll have on them. You can't discount the negative impact of the physical and mental trauma that a woman goes through....

I apologize for repeating what I've already said, but I wish there was a way to get the truth out to everybody. I know a lot of people hate the idea of putting out "gory pictures and films" for others to be forced to watch, but there has GOT to be a way to make the father AND the mother aware of what they're doing and what they're killing in these situations. It often has a traumatic effect on the fathers as well, and one of the worst things about the current law is that even if they're married, the mother can have the baby killed without even informing her husband that she was pregnant.
So as far as "not being down with telling people what to do with their lives" is concerned, that only "works" if ALL abortions were done in secret, and NO one who would EVER be effected by the "choice" finds out about it at ANY time after it happens. Otherwise at least one other person WILL be affected by the death of the baby.

Where is the "truth" in this?   There's no "truth" here, just what you believe to be true.   

Again, I'm going to ask: what is it about this topic that makes people think they have a right to make moral and factual decisions for someone else?   If I think it's a fetus - or not - why does that impact you?    If it traumatizes someone, why does that impact you?  Aren't those consequences that I (meaning, the decision-maker, not "Stadler") have to live with? 

My therapist has said repeatedly that short of the premature death of a parent, "divorce" is the most traumatizing thing that can happen to a child under a certain age, and yet there were something like 1,000,000 divorces in 2015.   So honestly, we - as a society - are not that interested in avoiding "trauma". 

Offline Chino

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #207 on: April 12, 2016, 08:46:20 AM »
I'm probably one of the more tame PRO LIFE people out there. I believe it's a baby...I do. But, as it stands....it's not illegal to have an abortion and I'm not down with trying to tell people what to do with their lives. We all get to make our choices, and have to live with the results of those decisions.

 I wish there would be more education for women, especially the younger crowd who are getting these abortions. Not only to the state of the baby when they are aborting it but the psychological impact it'll have on them. You can't discount the negative impact of the physical and mental trauma that a woman goes through....

I apologize for repeating what I've already said, but I wish there was a way to get the truth out to everybody. I know a lot of people hate the idea of putting out "gory pictures and films" for others to be forced to watch, but there has GOT to be a way to make the father AND the mother aware of what they're doing and what they're killing in these situations. It often has a traumatic effect on the fathers as well, and one of the worst things about the current law is that even if they're married, the mother can have the baby killed without even informing her husband that she was pregnant.
So as far as "not being down with telling people what to do with their lives" is concerned, that only "works" if ALL abortions were done in secret, and NO one who would EVER be effected by the "choice" finds out about it at ANY time after it happens. Otherwise at least one other person WILL be affected by the death of the baby.

Where is the "truth" in this?   There's no "truth" here, just what you believe to be true.   

Again, I'm going to ask: what is it about this topic that makes people think they have a right to make moral and factual decisions for someone else?   If I think it's a fetus - or not - why does that impact you?    If it traumatizes someone, why does that impact you?  Aren't those consequences that I (meaning, the decision-maker, not "Stadler") have to live with? 

My therapist has said repeatedly that short of the premature death of a parent, "divorce" is the most traumatizing thing that can happen to a child under a certain age, and yet there were something like 1,000,000 divorces in 2015.   So honestly, we - as a society - are not that interested in avoiding "trauma".

Only thing I can come up with for this is because it can effect your surroundings and community. If you are for abortion, you're going to be pretty pissed off if the government decides to close all planned parenthoods within a 300 mile radius. That's what I get angry at. I don't really care what other citizens think of or do with their lump of developing cells . If you can stomach abortion, cool. If you choose to have a baby over an abortion, cool. But when congressmen and women start cutting off treatment for women who aren't even seeking an abortion simply because the facility they go to performs abortions, that's were I feel the need to become vocal. Planned Parenthood is one of three charities I donate to on a quarterly basis, and I don't even like abortions.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 08:53:39 AM by Chino »

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #208 on: April 12, 2016, 10:40:54 AM »
I saw someone the other day refer to pro-choice people as "anti-life".  There's a reason I've hidden this person from my Facebook timeline.  I think that's inappropriate, no matter what you believe.

Offline Chino

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Re: IssueTalk: Abortion
« Reply #209 on: April 12, 2016, 11:03:15 AM »
I saw this come across my feed yesterday and unfollowed the page. I'm so sick of every fucking post being more focussed on stirring up trouble with the other side in an attempt to generate 'likes' and comments. If you're trying to convert others to think as you do, insulting and belittling them are the worst ways to go about it.

The biggest issue I have with the image below is that if left in isolation, the cake ingredients aren't going to magically become a cake and the yarn won't magically become a sweater, the lump of cells at the top will continue to grow and develop into a person. This is where the disconnect is. We can't seem to agree where the threshold is between something just being a lump of cells and something that can qualify as a human. It's a discussion I'd love to have, but forming your question or argument in the shape of this meme isn't trying to accomplish that.

I'm not even sure I could consider the lump of cells in the image below to be a human. It's a lump of cells awaiting orders. Given the right orders and chemical ingredients, scientists could one day turn that into any creature they want (in theory). But regardless, I'm pretty thrilled that my building blocks weren't thrown away before they started shaping me.




« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 11:15:54 AM by Chino »