I've got a confession to make...

[Stadler]

MS, give Disc 2 a listen. Some are saying that if you don't like Disc 1, Disc 2 won't make much of a difference. I disagree. Disc 2 has more of the recent DT feel ala Behind The Veil. And it has this one standout 90s-sounding song, Our New World.

I stand by my assertion, but I will say, "Our New World" is perhaps my favorite song in the whole set, and one of the few that "lingered" with me after.

As for "Progressive", it's an argument fraught with peril.   We - generally, not any one person here - have consistently shown that we don't like "too much" change.     I still maintain that if people REALLY liked when their artists took bold chances, then Chinese Democracy would have sold 10 million copies.  But that didn't happen. 

[CDrice]

I agree with you. That is why I said they "seem" simpler, just responding to Illegalastronaught's use of the word "complex" in describing the non-TA DT songs.

Got it! 

[TAC]

I have a confession too. I have listened to this album almost exclusively since its release, but I have NOT listened to an entire NOMAC track not even once. I've skipped right through them every time.

[cramx3]

I have a confession too. I have listened to this album almost exclusively since its release, but I have NOT listened to an entire NOMAC track not even once. I've skipped right through them every time.

That's actually pretty amazing considering they are short and easy to listen to if you aren't actively hitting the next button, but ever since my first play through and unless I am not paying attention, I always skip them.

[TAC]

I have a confession too. I have listened to this album almost exclusively since its release, but I have NOT listened to an entire NOMAC track not even once. I've skipped right through them every time.

That's actually pretty amazing considering they are short and easy to listen to if you aren't actively hitting the next button, but ever since my first play through and unless I am not paying attention, I always skip them.

It's Astonishing, actually.

[cramx3]

 

[Gromit1710]

I don't think you should skip out on listening to the second half. There's a few good stand alone songs on that disc that should end up on anyone's playlist of DT if they're a true fan.

But to state my own opinion, it is a much different effort for DT, one that after listening to it multiple times, giving it all the thought and time to sink in as any true DT fan knows to do with their releases, I've come to place this one pretty low on the order of favorite albums.

I still like it, don't get me wrong, and I absolutely acknowledge the effort that has gone into it with special love for JLB because of his performance.

[Architeuthis]

I'm astonished that some are unastonished with this album.. 

[SebastianPratesi]

I'm astonished that some are unastonished with this album.. 

Me too. I still can't believe how diverse, long, uplifting, interesting and enjoyable this album is to me.

[Madman Shepherd]

I don't think you should skip out on listening to the second half. There's a few good stand alone songs on that disc that should end up on anyone's playlist of DT if they're a true fan.

But to state my own opinion, it is a much different effort for DT, one that after listening to it multiple times, giving it all the thought and time to sink in as any true DT fan knows to do with their releases, I've come to place this one pretty low on the order of favorite albums.

I still like it, don't get me wrong, and I absolutely acknowledge the effort that has gone into it with special love for JLB because of his performance.

Exactly!

Some people seem practically offended that I am having trouble thinking of this as a DT album.  As I've said, I'm not making a stand and refusing to acknowledge it as part of their discography, I am simply having trouble placing it next to the other in their catalog because as you've said, it is a bit different. 

It's like the people that don't consider the Majesty Demos part of Dream Theater.  Sure, it is a different name, but the core three members were there as well as a keyboardist that was a huge part of the first 8 years of DT's existence.  The vocalist is different but it is the same band.  Yet, the style is pretty different.  In fact, they made a huge leap from those demos to WDADU and another huge jump to I&W.  compare I&W to the demos and the difference is night and day.  I can see why someone would have trouble putting those tracks next to each other even though I'm not one of them. 

All I'm saying is it is is difficult putting ADTOE or SC or FII next to the Astonishing.  They are very different in terms of style.  Bands do it from time to time.  They will change a few elements about an album and put it as a "band side project" among other things.  Metallica did it with Lulu.  Public Enemy did it with Rebirth of a Nation.  They are band albums, but there is just something a little different.  DT decided not to do it that way so it IS a DT album, but I'm of the mind that it may not have been a bad thing to try it that way.  It would have been easier to swallow but then again it could have been easier for critics to dismiss. 

Just an interesting point to think about.

[noxon]

I have trouble even putting FII and SC next to eachother - they're SO different it's hard to even say it's the same band. In fact, FII and TA has more in common with eachother than SC and FII has.

And "progressive" is often mistaken as "complex", which is just silly. Progressive as a term simply means it's a song that doesn't follow a set structure (typically pop or rocknroll blues-inspired ABABAA structures) - and to be inspired by genres outside of the norm in you "main genre" - so for instance bringing in folk music into your rock, or classical music, or any other type.

[cramx3]

All I'm saying is it is is difficult putting ADTOE or SC or FII next to the Astonishing.  They are very different in terms of style.  Bands do it from time to time.  They will change a few elements about an album and put it as a "band side project" among other things.  Metallica did it with Lulu.  Public Enemy did it with Rebirth of a Nation.  They are band albums, but there is just something a little different.  DT decided not to do it that way so it IS a DT album, but I'm of the mind that it may not have been a bad thing to try it that way.  It would have been easier to swallow but then again it could have been easier for critics to dismiss. 

There is no way TA should have been under any name besides DT.  It is sooo DT in every possible way besides track lengths.

[home]

When I saw the title of the thread I thought : https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=45549.msg2074727#msg2074727

[Madman Shepherd]

Well, I finally did it.  Wasn't impressed. There were a few songs that I thought may have worked well as "normal" DT songs but the rest was just filled with slow, mopey, disneyesque music. 

I am not saying this to rip on DT, as I still love this lineup the best out of every lineup they've had, and even the few missteps on DT12 wasn't enough for me to form a negative opinion about it.  In fact, I doubt I've been very open about my negative views of DT12 because overall I still love almost everything the band has done since MP left and BTFW is my favorite live album, but for me, The Astonishing is going to go down as a dark period in the bands history.  I just can't get excited about it.

In a way I'm glad I bought concert tickets before I heard the album because I may have skipped out and for me, this will be a very unique experience I may look back on and think, "Well, I'm glad I got to witness it first hand," the way someone will look back and seeing Guns N' Roses with Buckethead or Judas Priest with Ripper (great concerts btw).

All in all, I'm already over it and just looking forward to DT14, although there are a few tracks that will be cool to hear live. 

[erwinrafael]

Glad you gave it a chance, MS.

With some time passed, I have come to realize that TA is indeed an acquired taste. My experience sharing it with other people, most who liked it are really into musical theater, not so much those who are into it for the prog or for the metal. The theater guys and girls who listened to the album can really picture the piece as a staged musical, and they were actually amused that they hear some metal and some odd time signatures and different arrangements associated with prog that they are not used to. And they don't picture TA as Disney either. It's more of Disney appropriated elements of musical theater in their movies, which is why it appears that some of the musical aspects of TA sound like Disney.

[Madman Shepherd]

I can see that.  I know my Disney comment doesn't have a lot of factual basis as I do not watch much Disney, but like you said, there are appropriated elements of musical theatre which stand out.  I know that Frozen song because every Christmas light show uses it (and in that context, I don't mind it) and those same elements standout especially hard for me because of what little I know about it, my brain automatically associates it with those few common elements. 

When I heard they were doing a double concept album, I really didn't think it would be in this vein. I don't think they could win with me if it were all in this direction.  Still I hope they are successful because I still love the band.  On second thought, I hope they aren't *too* successful because I want future concerts to go back to the old format.   

[erwinrafael]

Would you say then that your appreciation would be different if this is like John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess' The Astonishing the musical, with musical score by Dream Theater? That's what I sort of get when I read your post that it doesn't really feel like a Dream Theater album.

So is it like this is Trans-Siberian Orchestra, not really Savatage? 

I used to bug Blob and rumbo about this musical thing, but I can sort of see the point of others now. It is indeed a different DT album. And while my point of contention back then remains my point of contention now (appreciate it as a musical!), I can now sort of see how people who really just want to hear a standard DT concept album, not a musical, would not really be into this.

[Madman Shepherd]

Would you say then that your appreciation would be different if this is like John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess' The Astonishing the musical, with musical score by Dream Theater? That's what I sort of get when I read your post that it doesn't really feel like a Dream Theater album.

So is it like this is Trans-Siberian Orchestra, not really Savatage? 

EXACTLY!

I was talking to a colleague of mine, and I have somewhat of a background in theatre and they were amazed I didn't like West Side Story.  The theatre I like doesn't really involve music but I can occasionally get into it.  I'd like to go see Hamilton.  I saw Wicked, and enjoyed it.  But it needs to be a once in a blue moon type of thing. 

For that matter I have still not seen Trans-Siberian Orchestra.  I was finally going to make an effort and go this year, and this was the one time they didn't come to my area. 

Anyway, I appreciate your insight into this discussion.  I actually don't like to trash DT and it kind of bothers me when people do.  I hear a lot of people throughout the years complaining that DT doesn't release good music anymore and I really think that it is just the listener growing out of the music and not wanting to admit it.  I think in this one instance, it might actually be Dream Theatre straying too far from what attracted people to them in the first place, not the listener. 

[Enigmachine]

Anyway, I appreciate your insight into this discussion.  I actually don't like to trash DT and it kind of bothers me when people do.  I hear a lot of people throughout the years complaining that DT doesn't release good music anymore and I really think that it is just the listener growing out of the music and not wanting to admit it.  I think in this one instance, it might actually be Dream Theatre straying too far from what attracted people to them in the first place, not the listener.

This seems like a good way to put it. It does get irritating when people feel a sense of entitlement towards a band, when it is mostly on the listener to appreciate something and not for the creator to cater to them. However, the line should be drawn at albums like 'St Anger' or 'Dedicated to Chaos' IMO which do deserve to be trashed.

[Madman Shepherd]

There definitely is "too far." I'm a very casual Metallica fan so perhaps my opinion carries a little more objectivity, but yes, St. Anger is absolute trash. 

[Enigmachine]

I believe that some element of somewhat objective quality exists in music, but the lines are very blurred and only highlighted with extremes like 'St Anger' or 'Lulu' on the negative end. I know that it isn't a thing people like to discuss, but if music was 100% subjective (though I think it's mostly subjective), professional musicians would have no value.

[jakepriest]

St. Anger is an okay album what the hell are you on about calling it "absolute trash". I know a few people who really enjoy it so you're basically saying they like absolute trash music. That's the same thing like saying people who listen to One Direction are untermensch and have a horrible music taste.

[home]

St. Anger is an okay album what the hell are you on about calling it "absolute trash". I know a few people who really enjoy it so you're basically saying they like absolute trash music. That's the same thing like saying people who listen to One Direction are untermensch and have a horrible music taste.

They don't like trash music, they like thrash music.

[Outcrier]

St. Anger is an okay album

For you but most don't think that.

[bosk1]

I know a few people who really enjoy it so you're basically saying they like absolute trash music.

Eh, if the trash can lid fits...

[Enigmachine]

St. Anger is an okay album what the hell are you on about calling it "absolute trash". I know a few people who really enjoy it so you're basically saying they like absolute trash music. That's the same thing like saying people who listen to One Direction are untermensch and have a horrible music taste.

Actually, to clarify what I was saying: I wasn't really referring to an objectivity in terms of "this is the truth and damnit you have to hate this album!" I was more referring to fans of the band having the right to go crazy on what a band makes if it happens to be something like 'St Anger'. The immature / angsty lyrics, repetitive as hell structures, overly simplistic musicianship and amateur production quality are objectively less likely to appeal to someone who values the pretty much reversed qualities of an album like 'Master of Puppets'. Also, the qualities of St Anger have a distinct feeling of being regressive and shallow hinting at resting on their laurels or extinguished creativity. Both of these make it reasonable for an 80s Metallica fan to outright say "this sucks" rather than "this is not for me".

An album like TA is different because while some of its qualities stray from what many like about DT, it still shows enough inspiration, coherence and effort that it remains genuine. Of couse it's fine for someone to dislike it entirely and to soundly explain why, but to just non-constructively trash it would not be reasonable I think. I know I won't stop people doing that, though.

*I may be talking more about trends than any sort of objective quality here.

**I also may not know what the hell I'm talking about.

[red barchetta]

I still haven't even listened to the second disc of the Astonishing. 

Roadrunner didn't send me my disc until a few days after it was released and by then I was too busy to sit down and listen to it  I didn't want to listen to it in segments so I kept putting it off.  Finally, I had a little time when I had to run to the store so I decided to drive around and ended up listening to all of disc one.  The hype had died way down, and I couldn't comprehend the story on a deep level (i mean, I know the basics....but why do I care about Faythe and Azrael and Nazareth?)  There were moments where I really got into it and then that all died down again. 

Anyway, I planned to listen to disc 2 when I had time...and then I had time, a lot of time actually, and just never cared to go back and find out what disc 2 is all about.  I did read the story on the official website and so...well....I guess I know how it all ends. 

I just can't bring myself to care about this album which is odd considering I think ADTOE is DT's best album.  So I should be into everything this line up does, right?

So at this point, I am thinking about just waiting until the show to listen to the second part.  My friend I am going with hates the album and would probably not go and eat the cost if I had anyone else to go with.  If I hadn't already bought my ticket, I would consider skipping it altogether, something I haven't done for a DT show that rolled through town since 2006. 

I do not hate the album, I just can't even really consider it a DT album.  Obviously it is, but it is just so....different and unsatisfying. 

Anybody else in the same boat?

I do feel the same. But I have listened to it many times trying to find it good. The whole thing is just not strong enough. It is very melodic but to me it sounds like a soundtrack of a Disney movie. It doesn't sound like a DT album and even worst, it is too long. Could have been feeling stronger without all the repetitive music. They will be in Montreal soon and the reason I kept listening to it was that I was hoping to like it enough to go to the concert. The album is THE show. Can't go to a 2 hour show when I just like about 30 minutes of it. And so far, they haven't sold as much tickets as they usually do here. If one day I finally like it enough, I will but the dvd they will release. An evening of concert is a good $150.00. A dvd, $20.00. I will settle for that.

[red barchetta]

It's like a Disney movie, or a 15yo fanfic that lasts two hours and has too many ballads
[/quote

Exactly but I respect people who likes Disney music.

[wolfking]

I have listened to the first disc twice and the second once, and that was enough.

[erwinrafael]

I understand not liking TA, tastes and all, but to equate this to juvenile fanfic as if composing a thing of this magnitude and complexity is easy shows a lack of understanding of the process of artistic creation. What an insult to DT.

[Adami]

I understand not liking TA, tastes and all, but to equate this to juvenile fanfic as if composing a thing of this magnitude and complexity is easy shows a lack of understanding of the process of artistic creation. What an insult to DT.

Musically, I would agree with you. Completely.

Lyrically and conceptually? Not as much.

[Enigmachine]

I understand not liking TA, tastes and all, but to equate this to juvenile fanfic as if composing a thing of this magnitude and complexity is easy shows a lack of understanding of the process of artistic creation. What an insult to DT.

Yeah basically. Constructive criticism beats mindless insults all the time. It's always a shame when people resort to the latter for a very well-made album.

[hefdaddy42]

IT WAS NOT TO MY TASTES

THEREFORE IT IS WORTHY OF CONTEMPT

[Prog Snob]

It says something about a person's complex when they resort to obtuse and sophomoric insults as opposed to expressing their disdain in a more respectful manner.

[pringkaarwanda]

So, I've got a confession to make, too
And maybe some off you, or all of you, will not believe at all about this my confession

I swear, I never listen to any Dream Theater song but The Astonishing, since January 29, 2016. Yes, since The Astonishing release for the first time, I listen to it, and until now, I haven't listened to another Dream Theater song, expect The Astonishing Album. And I have finish listen to the whole song from The Astonishing, in order, from first track until the last track, multiple times. Feel free for you to believe it or not, hahaha

I don't know, I think I am not just listen to music at all. I feel like watch a movie, read a tale while listen to the Astonishing. Really, for me, the astonishing is very different thing from Dream Theater.  So it is not like other album before, when you can pick 1 song as your favorite song. No, it's the whole thing, every song in this album.
I am kind of man, who very love some kind of fantasy or tale, or story, where I can use my imagination to build it in my mind and make it real in my head and imagination. I always do like this when I was kid. And as man who love music, I always make my own music as some kind of soundtrack for every piece of storyline or event in my imagination.

And here now, my very favorite band in the world just give me  their music, with a story, a tale, a fantasy, with some pictures of characters & places in their story to help their fans can create the fans magination about how their music and story in it.
How can I disappoint, or dissatisfied and reject this gift???
To be honest, if I listening to any song from the Astonishing, my head always try to make my own imagination about what storyline or what event that happen in that song. And I very love it man, really

So you not listen to disc 2?? And leave the rest of story of the Astonishing?? Ooh man, you have missed the greatest music and story from Dream Theater. 


Sorry for bad English, I am from Indonesia hehehe