Author Topic: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference  (Read 1966 times)

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Offline Calvin6s

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Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« on: February 25, 2016, 02:23:24 AM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:16:42 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Chino

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2016, 03:48:14 AM »
Is this a serious thread?

The only real life examples of this I've seen are girls getting discounts on drinks at clubs and senior citizens getting 10% off groceries on Tuesdays (though you didn't mention age).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 07:29:22 AM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2016, 06:40:53 AM »

Online El Barto

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2016, 08:32:46 AM »
I think it should be legal to do this. It is not. If you do you'll get your feet to the fire.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 08:48:48 AM »
In a perfect world, I agree with Barto. However, history has shown that once one group of people is either in power or the majority, the free market alone isn't strong enough to keep people from being screwed over. It's necessary for the government to step in and make laws to help prevent discrimination.


Offline cramx3

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 09:36:38 AM »
Well that's the thing, I believe in freedoms so in theory I think it should be someone's right, just like Cops get free coffee from the 7/11 because the guy running it wants to be buddy buddy in case he gets pulled over, but in reality it just wouldn't work if you start doing something like that.  I don't believe any business "should" be doing this, but I believe they should have the right to, it's just wrong IMO.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 09:43:59 AM »
In a perfect world, I agree with Barto. However, history has shown that once one group of people is either in power or the majority, the free market alone isn't strong enough to keep people from being screwed over. It's necessary for the government to step in and make laws to help prevent discrimination.

Well, it's not so cut and dry.  The free market WOULD be strong enough a lot more often if it was given the time and inclination to work.  The problem - for me - is that government sticks it's nose in prematurely and has to make everything instantly even, and in doing so often does just the opposite. 

It's one thing if Walmart decides that all homosexuals and Hispanics are to pay 15% more across the board.   I might be convinced that they are big enough to warrant government intervention.   But honestly, if a single proprietor - a mom and pop cake shop for example - or a regional chain decides that there should be a "gay" surcharge, I don't see the need for government intervention.   Homosexuals and anyone sympathetic to the cause or reluctant to fund a bigoted endeavor can and should go elsewhere.  If a sole proprietor (or even a small regional chain) wants to make the (poor) business decision of reducing its available market by anywhere from 4 to 50, or 60 or even 70%, well, that's on them, isn't it? What's the difference between charging homosexuals more per sale, than, say, throwing in a free soda with any kids meal?  And what's to stop a Hispanic or homosexual proprietor from opening their own store and doing just the opposite? 

Having it be legal doesn't condone the behavior, necessarily.  I think all of this is odious, frankly, and fraught with peril ("but I'm not gay!").   The legality of it is merely the minimum standard. 

Offline Orbert

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 10:25:45 AM »
I believe in freedoms so in theory I think it should be someone's right, just like Cops get free coffee from the 7/11 because the guy running it wants to be buddy buddy in case he gets pulled over

I always thought cops got free coffee and stuff because then they'll be there more often, and potential thieves will know that.  Given the choice between robbing a couple of different area convenience stores, you pick the one that cops don't hang out at for the free coffee.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 11:29:19 AM »
The local strip joint lets ladies in free when they accompany a male customer.  I'm okay with this.  It encourages more ladies to go to strip clubs.  Win/win.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 11:31:55 AM »
Not for nothing, but these are all exmples of some demographic being charged LESS for the same services, as opposed to more. 

We've kind of all de facto decided that discrimination FOR something is okay, its when we are discriminating AGAINST something that we seem to take umbrage.

Offline Implode

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 11:43:47 AM »
The free market WOULD be strong enough a lot more often if it was given the time and inclination to work.  The problem - for me - is that government sticks it's nose in prematurely and has to make everything instantly even, and in doing so often does just the opposite.

I don't know. To me, the decades of the failure of "separate but equal" show just how ineffective the free market is at this kind of thing.

It's one thing if Walmart decides that all homosexuals and Hispanics are to pay 15% more across the board.   I might be convinced that they are big enough to warrant government intervention.   But honestly, if a single proprietor - a mom and pop cake shop for example - or a regional chain decides that there should be a "gay" surcharge, I don't see the need for government intervention.Homosexuals and anyone sympathetic to the cause or reluctant to fund a bigoted endeavor can and should go elsewhere.  If a sole proprietor (or even a small regional chain) wants to make the (poor) business decision of reducing its available market by anywhere from 4 to 50, or 60 or even 70%, well, that's on them, isn't it? What's the difference between charging homosexuals more per sale, than, say, throwing in a free soda with any kids meal?  And what's to stop a Hispanic or homosexual proprietor from opening their own store and doing just the opposite?

That's true, but legally, how can you draw a line? Limit the law to companies of different sizes? You're absolutely right that it's not cut and dry, but unfortunately, laws have to draw a line somewhere. Might as well do what you think will yield the best result for the people under said laws. (Which is probably where we disagree).

Having it be legal doesn't condone the behavior, necessarily.  I think all of this is odious, frankly, and fraught with peril ("but I'm not gay!").   The legality of it is merely the minimum standard.

I don't disagree with this, but my answer is similar to my first point. Legality doesn't condone the behavior, but without the laws, the behavior can more easily run rampant and become heavily institutionalized. History has shown that to be the case.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 11:48:51 AM »
So, there is an actual business reason for ladies night at the bar or strip club, and for a free drink with a kid's meal, and for senior discounts.  There's no actual business reason for discriminating against gay people as a business owner except that you dislike gay people.  Regardless of whether you think that should be illegal, I hope we're able to see the difference between the two.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 11:53:57 AM »
Oh, I totally see the difference, I just like discussing strip clubs.

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2016, 12:09:27 PM »
Oh, I totally see the difference, I just like discussing strip clubs.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Online El Barto

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 12:22:07 PM »
So, there is an actual business reason for ladies night at the bar or strip club, and for a free drink with a kid's meal, and for senior discounts.  There's no actual business reason for discriminating against gay people as a business owner except that you dislike gay people.  Regardless of whether you think that should be illegal, I hope we're able to see the difference between the two.
While we can discuss the difference from a standpoint of ethics, that difference has to be meaningless insofar as law is concerned.

And for that matter, "I'm trying to be the business that caters to bible thumpers by excluding gays" actually is a valid business reason.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2016, 12:24:55 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:17:24 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2016, 12:31:25 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:17:33 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2016, 12:57:04 PM »
In my world it wouldn't matter. You'd just exclude young black men. In the legal world, I suspect your premise would probably work, but it might not stop you from getting sued.

And by the way, positing that encouraging cops to show up would deter black men. . .
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2016, 01:04:22 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:17:55 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2016, 01:14:14 PM »
Well aren't they already doing that by hiring off duty LEA to work security? That's common practice down here, and they're allowed to wear their uniforms. Working private security is the bread and butter for Texas cops.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2016, 01:25:28 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:18:04 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2016, 02:46:47 PM »
I don't know. To me, the decades of the failure of "separate but equal" show just how ineffective the free market is at this kind of thing.

Sincere question:  please tell me more.  I'm not sure I get where you're going with this.

Quote
That's true, but legally, how can you draw a line? Limit the law to companies of different sizes? You're absolutely right that it's not cut and dry, but unfortunately, laws have to draw a line somewhere. Might as well do what you think will yield the best result for the people under said laws. (Which is probably where we disagree).

Well, you CAN, interstate commerce, contracts with the government over a certain size, certain number of employees... we do that with the SBA and Obamacare, why not here?  I get it that it's not ENTIRELY the same, but this is not the insurmountable problem here. That is....

Quote
I don't disagree with this, but my answer is similar to my first point. Legality doesn't condone the behavior, but without the laws, the behavior can more easily run rampant and become heavily institutionalized. History has shown that to be the case.

...this.   I think this is where you and I have our most fundamental disagreement.  I think the notion of "institutionalized" is grossly over-stated.  Competition is good.  In almost every case where the argument goes against competition, there is something else at play that actively undermines the mechanism.  I'm thinking of healthcare; yes, competition is great, and we should strive for it, but as long as there are the state-by-state regulations of the industry, you will NEVER have "true" competition.  Same with utilities. At the end of the day, I find it implausible that one cake store is going to throw the entire free market into a conniption.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2016, 02:53:33 PM »
So, there is an actual business reason for ladies night at the bar or strip club, and for a free drink with a kid's meal, and for senior discounts.  There's no actual business reason for discriminating against gay people as a business owner except that you dislike gay people.  Regardless of whether you think that should be illegal, I hope we're able to see the difference between the two.

Prove it.   Maybe the "actual business reason" is there is a group of people that will not shop there as long as the store serves gay people.  Implausible, maybe, odious, without question, but that's for that business owner to decide, not you.   

This can't be argued in a vacuum.  Of course we're talking about unpleasant ideas, but the system is bigger than that.   I don't at all go in for shaming or Twatter campaigns or boycotts or any of that bullying, but each and every person in the process does get their own say.   We're talking about a point of sale between the owner and a customer.  That owner should be able to decide for any reason - or no reason at all - whether to sell to that person or not, and at what price.  At his peril.   When word gets out that Store X will not sell to my friend @theseoafs, it is now on me to decide if I want to shop there.   It is now on the supplier, @el barto, to decide if he wants to sell supplies to a store that doesn't offer the same service at the same price to @theseoafs. 

No, it's not instant.  No it's not always perfect.  But it will get to the end game soon enough.  I think that laws might have helped in some instances in the past doesn't mean that they are the only or even the best solution to this problem.  Most of us didn't (and don't) need laws.   

Remember, we're not talking about our government here, we're talking about individual actors.

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2016, 03:01:40 PM »
Out of interest, when would you say is the right time for the government to get involved? For example, let's say there's a small town in the middle of nowhere, and the only bakery in town refuses to serve gay people. Should gay people just say "well, okay, that's too bad, I guess we won't be eating bread anytime soon"?
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2016, 03:03:24 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:18:19 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2016, 07:56:15 PM »
So, there is an actual business reason for ladies night at the bar or strip club, and for a free drink with a kid's meal, and for senior discounts.  There's no actual business reason for discriminating against gay people as a business owner except that you dislike gay people.  Regardless of whether you think that should be illegal, I hope we're able to see the difference between the two.

Prove it.   Maybe the "actual business reason" is there is a group of people that will not shop there as long as the store serves gay people.  Implausible, maybe, odious, without question, but that's for that business owner to decide, not you.   

This can't be argued in a vacuum.

Okay, I'd love to argue it outside of a vacuum. But are we actually putting it in context when the arguments center around hypothetical fictional worlds where poor shop owners can't get any business because they don't refuse to serve gays?

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2016, 07:59:13 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:18:31 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2016, 09:11:57 PM »
Okay, I'd love to argue it outside of a vacuum. But are we actually putting it in context when the arguments center around hypothetical fictional worlds where poor shop owners can't get any business because they don't refuse to serve gays?

Interesting.  Are you implying that homophobia has lost its power?

I'm not 100% sure I understand the question.  I think what you're getting at is that things have changed: back in the day, in certain places, upstanding citzens could be ostracized for being too chummy with a gay person, or a black person, or whatever.  In America in 2016, I don't think there is a town so ass-backwards that serving a gay dude a plate of eggs would ruin your livelihood.

Anyway, I don't mean to belabor the point that much, because it doesn't actually matter that much, nor does it really affect my views on this issue at all.  But I don't think the conversation is actually happening in the right context at all when you're arguing that a "black man fee" is in essence the same thing as "ladies night".

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2016, 09:25:46 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:18:48 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2016, 06:54:03 AM »
Out of interest, when would you say is the right time for the government to get involved? For example, let's say there's a small town in the middle of nowhere, and the only bakery in town refuses to serve gay people. Should gay people just say "well, okay, that's too bad, I guess we won't be eating bread anytime soon"?

I'm not sure there is a mathematically precise answer for that, but there is no "right" to have baked goods that have your pet slogan on there.    If I walked in to a bakery and said "I need a cake.  It needs to say "Laura, your nether regions taste like the finest wine, and I can't wait to join our demon seeds this evening."  and the baker says "NO!" I don't have any recourse, really.  That's not subject to any right I may have; it's not religious, it's not obscene, it's not racially defamatory... he can just say no.   So to FORCE a baker to put "Hey, Steve! Happy Birthday, and I love you will all my soul! Love Adam!" is actually providing MORE rights to homosexuals than the general population might have.   So the "lonely bakery in a small town" (which seems like the go-to example) is a red herring.   If I, as a straight white male is determined to not give my business to anyone I feel are bigoted, I am in the same boat as the gay man.  It's a red herring. 

This notion that we should all be able to have everything we want, when and where we want it has wrecked havoc with the idea of what is a "right" and what is Constitutionally protected. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2016, 06:59:47 AM »
So, there is an actual business reason for ladies night at the bar or strip club, and for a free drink with a kid's meal, and for senior discounts.  There's no actual business reason for discriminating against gay people as a business owner except that you dislike gay people.  Regardless of whether you think that should be illegal, I hope we're able to see the difference between the two.

Prove it.   Maybe the "actual business reason" is there is a group of people that will not shop there as long as the store serves gay people.  Implausible, maybe, odious, without question, but that's for that business owner to decide, not you.   

This can't be argued in a vacuum.

Okay, I'd love to argue it outside of a vacuum. But are we actually putting it in context when the arguments center around hypothetical fictional worlds where poor shop owners can't get any business because they don't refuse to serve gays?

I'm not putting it in ANY context.  That's the point.  Once you do, it becomes so situational as to precipitate or preclude the answer (as in Scorpion's scenario).   We cannot and should not just assume that all assumptions are the same here.  They're not. 

The point of the story is that it is that person's business.  He gets to limit his market, he gets to reduce his income and margin, to whatever extent he feels it's right.  There is no difference, from a business perspective, between refusing to put certain slogans on a birthday cake and closing your restaurant at 3:00 pm and not choosing to cater to the dinner crowd.  That it offends you or your sensibilities is not an assumption that should feed into the discussion. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2016, 07:02:51 AM »
Separate but equal should be a failure in general application.


No, it depends on the reason for the "separate but equal".  If there is a compelling reason for it, then it should be allowed.  "Race" is not a compelling reason at this point, absent some additional facts.

The problem is, as I have alluded to in my two previous posts, is that there are too many assumptions being made that color (no pun intended) the answer, and we cannot therefore accept those assumptions without further scrutiny.  Scrutiny, I might add, that is not being given, in my humble opinion.    For example, no one has the "right" to a cake with their pet slogan on it. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2016, 08:50:58 AM »
*cancels order for Stadler's birthday cake*
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 09:22:01 AM »
*cancels order for Stadler's birthday cake*

Did it mention anyone's nether regions?

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Re: Sale price deteremined by race, gender and sexual preference
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 09:45:49 AM »
Perhaps you should, if you want to get back in our good graces.
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