Author Topic: Suicide  (Read 835 times)

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Offline kaos2900

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Suicide
« on: February 05, 2016, 08:24:19 AM »
There have been several stories lately of celebrities and sports stars (Dave Mirra) killing them selves. I've begun to form a very negative opinion towards suicide and those who go through with it. I think it is selfish and I think that the people who do it are weak.  This is a harsh view and honestly I feel a little bad for thinking this way. I don't like to speak ill of the dead but I think that when society jumps to blame a certain situation for the persons suicide rather than the person them self that we're helping others considering suicde. I get that mental illness is a huge issue but the person who kills them self needs to be held accountable for their actions. I just don't get it.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2016, 08:42:44 AM »
My experience has been that it is like most sensitive subjects:  the perspective is wide-ranged.
It ranges from deeply troubled individuals who are so overwhelmed with life that they see no other way out and give up to those who selflessly take the "easy" way out.
In either case, it is very troubling for those who are left behind.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2016, 08:45:22 AM »
Sometimes it's selfish. Sometimes it's gracious.
Sometimes it's cowardly. Sometimes it's brave.
Sometimes it's foolish. Sometimes it's ingenious.

No idea what was going on with that Mirra guy, but it's a shame he left a family behind. Not my place to judge, though, for a variety of reasons. I'll also throw out there that also selfish is expecting people to continue being miserable just because you find the ramifications of their suicide troubling.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2016, 08:55:51 AM »
The only thing selfish about suicide is if you blow your brains out and force your family to walk in on the result. I'm in favor of assisted suicide (not just for the elderly) for this reason.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2016, 12:06:12 PM »
Sometimes it's selfish. Sometimes it's gracious.
Sometimes it's cowardly. Sometimes it's brave.
Sometimes it's foolish. Sometimes it's ingenious.

No idea what was going on with that Mirra guy, but it's a shame he left a family behind. Not my place to judge, though, for a variety of reasons. I'll also throw out there that also selfish is expecting people to continue being miserable just because you find the ramifications of their suicide troubling.
This is where I land.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2016, 01:14:48 PM »
Sometimes it's selfish. Sometimes it's gracious.
Sometimes it's cowardly. Sometimes it's brave.
Sometimes it's foolish. Sometimes it's ingenious.

No idea what was going on with that Mirra guy, but it's a shame he left a family behind. Not my place to judge, though, for a variety of reasons. I'll also throw out there that also selfish is expecting people to continue being miserable just because you find the ramifications of their suicide troubling.
This is where I land.

I'm closer to this line of thinking now that I used to be. I used to be flat out....it's selfish and ignorant, and still lean towards that direction...But, the longer I live I realize that living life is tough....and, if you throw any type of mental illness into it....depression...loneliness, it becomes tougher. It's sad to think that a human can get to the point where ending your life seems like the best solution.

 A few years back a buddy took his own life....blew his brains out. Father of two girls, married...but he had some physical issues with his back and was on medication for that and depression due to him being out of work and unable to support his family. He went out one night with his wife drinking....mixed his meds with alcohol and somewhere in the night they got in a fight....he left the room and a few minutes later.....boom.....

At the funeral his wife  walked up to me and said "I just need to know if he's ok"....and, although I hadn't planned on speaking at his funeral I felt compelled to speak when it was requested that if anyone had anything to say. My message was really to her and her kids...I don't remember verbatim what I said but the point was that the person who killed himself was not the same person she fell in love with, that we all knew as a friend and that the girls knew as 'dad'. Which, I believe(d)....other than perhaps the elderly or situations where terminally ill choose to do it.....I think you have to have something gone wrong in your mind to believe that is the only option to improve things. When he made that choice to kill himself I don't think that he was the guy everyone loved and knew.

I'll spare the bulk of the religious/spiritual section of my beliefs on suicide....but nonetheless I believe that there is an aspect to suicide that involves the enemy of man and one's relationship or lack thereof with God. But that's probably a discussion for a different thread.

My point being.....if someone chooses to revolt against the survival at all costs instinct that humans have.....there's something 'not right' going on in the noggan'.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2016, 06:09:50 PM »
I used to take the "anyone who commits suicide is a selfish jerk" stance, but not anymore. Mental illness is a major problem in this country, and even those who don't have one can have moments of incredible weakness.  I don't think any of us really know how we would react to hitting rock bottom.  Not saying a lot of us would resort to it in that situation, but just imagine how messed up someone's head has to be, even if it is just temporary, to commit such an act.

Heck, I even made a comment to my parents a month ago that made them pause.  I have recurring sleep issues, and it was a day where I was tired as hell (imagine sleeping non-stop for eight hours and then waking up and feeling like you slept for two), and I just spouted, "This is the kind of shit that drives some people crazy, for real, feeling tired every day and like you never have energy."  It was just a moment where I just had to let it out. I would never take what some call the easy way out, but that particular day did make me think about how so many people have it waaaaay worse than me, with much worse issues, not nearly as good a support system and/or the feeling that there is no other way out. 

Offline Cable

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2016, 08:01:32 PM »
3:30 in, please watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qAY1My00fk

Also http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katie-hurley/theres-nothing-selfish-about-suicide_b_5672519.html

As a mental health worker, it is NOT selfish. Might look that way from family and friends perspective. Which is what this article says. But then the person who committed suicide's perspective is not looked at. Has anyone every *really* talked to someone with depression? Or ever *really* experienced it way beyond trigging stimuli?

Depression has been produced in animal studies, creating the "arrested flight" response. So those with depression do not have the survival instinct in the same way, as gmillerdrake mentioned.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 08:15:58 PM by CableX »
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Calvin6s

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2016, 09:04:10 PM »
,
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 04:58:24 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2016, 11:00:13 AM »
This won't be a popular point, but I think a lot of "perception" of suicide - on BOTH sides - is couched in language that deals more with the survivors than the suicide.  Even the mantra "that's not the person you married" falls into that; that absolutely IS the person you married, it's just a part of him you didn't know.   

I think terms like "selfish" and what not are too subjective to use in this area.  What one feels is subjective ("he LEFT US when the going got tough!" versus "I'M THE PROBLEM here, and I will remove the problem from the people I love") and so can never be ascertained with any certainly.

I know two people personally who have done this.  Neither one can I honestly say "I saw that coming!" or "the signs were there!".  Both were what outsiders would consider to be well-liked and well-loved, and I can only say that the only explanation that makes any sense is that the chemicals in their brain added up in such a way that to them, this made perfect sense.   I think it is futile, except in the academic and psychological sense, to try to suss out "why" unless and until we as survivors are willing to let go of useless labels like "selfish".   It's too rationalizing to be truthful, in my humble opinion. 

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2016, 02:09:56 PM »
Judging mentally ill people on their illogical actions is nonsensical.

Offline Adami

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2016, 02:11:36 PM »
Here's a potentially controversial opinion. Not everyone who commit suicide is mentally ill.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2016, 02:16:11 PM »
Dave Mirra was suffering from extreme depression and had a long concussion history. He was.

I don't mean to absolve everyone, but when dealing with absolutes like "all people who kill themselves are weak," and using him as the one example, it must be pointed out that really isn't a rational line of thought.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2016, 02:17:45 PM »
Here's a potentially controversial opinion. Not everyone who commit suicide is mentally ill.
:tup       :tup
One for the post and one for showing back up after however many years.
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Offline Cable

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2016, 03:11:35 PM »
Here's a potentially controversial opinion. Not everyone who commit suicide is mentally ill.
:tup       :tup
One for the post and one for showing back up after however many years.


It shouldn't be controversial, because it is correct in technical aspects.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 08:34:23 PM by CableX »
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2016, 01:17:29 AM »
whoa, an Adami sighting....nice!

I thought of this thread this evening when I learned that last night (just a few miles from our home) someone jumped off a bridge onto a freeway and was killed by the passing vehicles.

Aside from the fact that I know nothing of this person's state of mind (ie. mentally ill, etc), I did find it troubling that the drivers will now be devastated for life with the trauma of being a part of it.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2016, 12:23:29 PM »
whoa, an Adami sighting....nice!

I thought of this thread this evening when I learned that last night (just a few miles from our home) someone jumped off a bridge onto a freeway and was killed by the passing vehicles.

Aside from the fact that I know nothing of this person's state of mind (ie. mentally ill, etc), I did find it troubling that the drivers will now be devastated for life with the trauma of being a part of it.

In my opinion, the portion in bold is the very definition of selfish; whether intentional or not, the way this person choose to commit the act involved other non-voluntary participants... participants that now have to face the fact that they took a life unintentionally.  Which may then push them to those thoughts.

My uncle, who was a decorated pilot in the Vietnam conflict, took his own life shortly after I was born in 1980.  My mother doesn't speak about it much, but from what I understand he must have had a very hard time adjusting back to civilian life after what he saw (he was a Medevac pilot and flew many missions, including Hamburger Hill).  I would think he suffered from PTSD.  My point is that the family members tried all they could to support him, and I haven't heard it said amongst the family that anyone knew he even had an issue adjusting (I don't think they knew what to look for); a family member came home and found him shot.  Perhaps he could not remedy the what he continued to see in his mind.  I still feel it selfish in a way (though different from the situation I sighted above); if he had reached the point of death being the only way out and he had nothing to lose... and he had a very supporting family who stood by him... why not make the attempt to speak to a family member about what's happening... even if you think they won't understand.  Maybe getting it out in the open would assuage the thoughts of taking one's own life.

Fast forward to present day; my nephew is 14 and is having a great amount of difficulty mentally.  He's been diagnosed with Asperger's and is now medicated; however his medication has been changed many, many times and he's gone from threatening bodily harm to his mother and father (whom he hates) to threatening harm to himself, to not speaking at all to anyone, to being timid and withdrawn... basically the whole spectrum.  He's currently doing better (Praise God), but the problem I have with the situation is that he was by all accounts a normal child until the age of 12 when his father denied him access to the internet one night (I don't know why and I honestly don't want to), he then started down the path I just gave to you... first threatening his father with physical harm armed with a kitchen knife and then progressing down through the spectrum.  Could one event (like removing internet access) be the catalyst that begins to show the signs of a chronic condition?

My point in saying that is that my family has experience these types of scenarios and that I still do not know how to approach it... maybe a better phrase would be how I should approach it. 
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter; Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."  Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Offline Cable

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Re: Suicide
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2016, 05:39:22 PM »

I did find it troubling that the drivers will now be devastated for life with the trauma of being a part of it.

 I did find it troubling that the drivers will now be devastated for life with the trauma of being a part of it.

In my opinion, the portion in bold is the very definition of selfish; whether intentional or not, the way this person choose to commit the act involved other non-voluntary participants... participants that now have to face the fact that they took a life unintentionally.  Which may then push them to those thoughts.



So a person with epilepsy has a seizure in the middle of the store, falls and dies as a result of the physical trauma. Same for a massive heart attack in a store. Or a bunch of items crushing someone to death from a high rack in a warehouse store, because that happened and happens. We should be mad at them too, because we saw death happen. I cannot think of more gruesome things at this time, but they exist.

These neurological and physiological diseases get sympathy from us. So why not a neurologically scanned and proven disorder? Because that person had a choice apparently...



My uncle, who was a decorated pilot in the Vietnam conflict, took his own life shortly after I was born in 1980.  My mother doesn't speak about it much, but from what I understand he must have had a very hard time adjusting back to civilian life after what he saw (he was a Medevac pilot and flew many missions, including Hamburger Hill). I would think he suffered from PTSD.  My point is that the family members tried all they could to support him, and I haven't heard it said amongst the family that anyone knew he even had an issue adjusting (I don't think they knew what to look for); a family member came home and found him shot.  Perhaps he could not remedy the what he continued to see in his mind.  I still feel it selfish in a way (though different from the situation I sighted above); if he had reached the point of death being the only way out and he had nothing to lose... and he had a very supporting family who stood by him... why not make the attempt to speak to a family member about what's happening... even if you think they won't understand.  Maybe getting it out in the open would assuage the thoughts of taking one's own life.

Let's look it at from his perspective. He probably did have PTSD. That diagnoses just got more involved, so I cannot recall it off the top of my head. But the basic thing about PTSD is a constant feeling of Fight, Flight or Freeze. So any little stimuli could have made him feel like he is back in war. Or an analogy I use- his emotional "car" was redlined at 8000 rpms constantly. Is that anyway to live? Can you imagine feeling like that? You yourself said he couldn't remedy what was in his head.

If he was major depressive disorder, imagine months of feeling sad. Sad meaning low energy, poor sleep hygiene, poor motivation, low appetite, withdrawing from others. The very nature of depression often makes people withdraw, so it makes it hard to talk to others about it. And what if he did? "Cheer up man." "Think about your family." Do you think people don't think to try these things, or think about these things? Do you think he didn't try at all? Do we know he didn't try at all? Just getting it out in the open would have solved the months to years of mental trauma? And do you think pulling out of suicide is a quick fix, remedied by an anti-depressant or mood stabilizer?


Fast forward to present day; my nephew is 14 and is having a great amount of difficulty mentally. He's been diagnosed with Asperger's and is now medicated; however his medication has been changed many, many times and he's gone from threatening bodily harm to his mother and father (whom he hates) to threatening harm to himself, to not speaking at all to anyone, to being timid and withdrawn... basically the whole spectrum.  He's currently doing better (Praise God), but the problem I have with the situation is that he was by all accounts a normal child until the age of 12 when his father denied him access to the internet one night (I don't know why and I honestly don't want to), he then started down the path I just gave to you... first threatening his father with physical harm armed with a kitchen knife and then progressing down through the spectrum.  Could one event (like removing internet access) be the catalyst that begins to show the signs of a chronic condition?

My point in saying that is that my family has experience these types of scenarios and that I still do not know how to approach it... maybe a better phrase would be how I should approach it.



I'm confused. The timelines I bolded do not match up. Is your cousin your uncle's son, or did you aunt remarry and that is his father?

I will sound harsh here- your cousin's problems are his problems with regard to Autism. High level autism is a condition that most likely had nothing to do with your uncle's suicide. I'm not 100% because a) autism is not my bag, and b) there is no 100% consensus on causes. But autism *is* seen in early development, so the only thing your uncle could have contributed realistically is genetics if it is his kid.

You also mention two different things: para-suicidal (self-harm)/threatening behavior and Autism. These are dealt with separately, and basically completely different, outside of both sharing faults in the brain. With regard to para-suicide, without going into the big diagnosis related to it, is ultimately at the extreme end of suicidal warning signs. It sounds like to me the threats here are to gain something.

There are countless of single parents in the world. Do they blame their absent parents for their issues? Let's twist this on its head. A child is molested by a parent for many years. The child grows up, and starts having suicidal thoughts, but manages them from time to time. They get married, has or adopts kids. They lose a job, see their parent at some point. The triggers are overpowering, and leads to suicide. They must be selfish too? What about an only child single person, divorced with no kids, in their 70s, retired and both parents deceased. This person commits suicide. How can that person be selfish? Their immediate family is deceased or nonexistent.

People cannot choose to NOT have these thoughts. We are stuck on this being a choice. We tend to fall into these traps of "well just choose to not do it." But we then ignore what the person is going through. The video I referred to went on deaf ears. It does say it better than I can.
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