Author Topic: Justice Scalia Dead at 79  (Read 3774 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2016, 06:29:26 AM »

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2016, 08:11:54 AM »
The man was elderly, fat and smoked. He also had several chronic health conditions according to his physician, who's quite respectably refusing to divulge them. Also, it was the family that didn't want the autopsy.

Furthermore, we all know the president only gets three free murders per term. There are far more worthy candidates than that guy.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2016, 12:59:46 PM »
Brian Sandoval would be a hysterical nominee. He's a very moderate republican governor. Was proposed by Harry Reid but nominated by Dumbass and approved unanimously by the senate. He's also pro-choice, favors immigration reform, doesn't seem to have much of a problem with gay marriage and he's Hispanic. He's also very well qualified for the gig. I really can't think of anybody it would be more foolish for the GOP to oppose, but they still would, and they'd look like whiny children for doing it.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline TL

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2016, 02:34:29 PM »
First, I'll completely agree that anyone celebrating his death or being gleeful about it needs to cut it out. While I had a lot of strong disagreements with his politics, cheering the death of someone because of political differences is disgusting.

Having looked at the situation, and at precedent, it seems like Obama is well within common practice to nominate a new justice. The senate will then be well within their jurisdiction to give the nominee a thorough yet fair examination and vetting. One would certainly hope that they wouldn't be obstructionist for political reasons, but that probably will happen.

The democrats are certainly guilty of putting partisanship over proper procedure sometimes too; during the Bush years, they tried some similar tactics to what the GOP are attempting now, to try and block one of Bush's court appointments. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

Interestingly enough, Scalia tended to favor the letter of the law vis a vis the constitution, and by that measure, likely would have agreed that the current president has full authority to nominate a new justice.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2016, 05:22:09 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:05:35 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2016, 11:03:56 AM »
That's not from this administration.  That's from when he was on the Senate Judiciary Committee, before he became VP.

But saying that the judicial philosophy of the nominee matters is one thing.  Saying before the process starts that no nominee will be approved is entirely another.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2016, 11:08:49 AM »
Yeah, and maybe I am missing the point, but I don't really have a problem with what he said.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2016, 11:14:41 AM »
Yeah, and maybe I am missing the point, but I don't really have a problem with what he said.
Me either.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2016, 11:16:15 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:05:45 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2016, 11:23:13 AM »
Moreover, after Bork things were considerably less contentious. Kennedy had no trouble being confirmed in his stead. Hell, Roberts was confirmed 78-22, and that was at a time of similar partisan rancor.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2016, 11:52:15 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:05:55 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2016, 01:47:00 PM »
Look, I'm a huge fan of Scalia (not for the outcome of his rulings but his adherence to process) and as a lawyer, his intellect is to be admired.  But it's not really up for debate: Obama HAS to nominate someone. He'd be derelict in his duties if he didn't.  I don't like it any more than the next guy, but fair is fair, and this is how the process works.

It's likely, in that regard, that the NEXT President is going to have his/her say anyway, so while it makes a difference in principle, it's not the end of the world if a moderate liberal gets nominated and confirmed.

Yes, I typed that of my own volition and with no alcohol in my system (maybe that's the problem). 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2016, 02:31:41 PM »
You're exactly right.

Have a beer.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2016, 02:32:29 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:06:15 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline jsbru

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2016, 06:23:11 PM »
Let's all be honest here, though.  Robert Bork was an ideological extremist that, while skilled in some areas, was more of a political hack than a judge.  He clearly wasn't going to hop on the court and interpret cases based on existing law.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2016, 12:14:02 AM »
Most judges get to the court and come to the realization that the institution is bigger than they are. I suspect some of your ideology gets washed away once the gravity of the gig sinks in. That's how we wind up with justices that disappoint some of the core group that counted on them. Bork wasn't going to be one of those guys. I think it was pretty clear by the way he conducted himself that he was wanting to go in and change things. That's not the job he was offered.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2016, 03:11:27 PM »
Most judges get to the court and come to the realization that the institution is bigger than they are. I suspect some of your ideology gets washed away once the gravity of the gig sinks in. That's how we wind up with justices that disappoint some of the core group that counted on them. Bork wasn't going to be one of those guys. I think it was pretty clear by the way he conducted himself that he was wanting to go in and change things. That's not the job he was offered.

I think you are right on the mark here.   

Having said that, I think Robert Bork is having far more than the fifteen minutes he is entitled to.  His nomination has taken on mythical proportions, and it's not really a legitimate thing.  For one thing, most people - at least those that ARE making it more than it is - is that his nomination was (a form of) a quid pro quo.   Now, you can debate whether the highest court in the land is an appropriate place for that, but still.   This was not an ideological battle to the death that ended with the Democrats somehow snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.  I don't think there were any illusions by anyone other than Bork himself that this was a realistic shot at filling an open Court seat.  It is not inconsequential that the seat was filled by Justice Kennedy, who passed the confirmation hearings with flying colors even though he was unequivocally a conservative in ideology (of course, famously, he became the token "swing vote" after O'Connor retired, though that is more reflective of his libertarianism than his liberalism.  He's still a staunch conservative in that regard). 

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2016, 12:04:29 PM »
I just read about 1960 Dems proposal of blocking nominations during a recess.   It was nonbinding.  Eisenhower had appointed a justice during a recess in October '56, a month before the elections.

Too often in our history, state rights have interfered with personal freedoms.  The list is too long, so I hedge depending on the particular case of what too small of a group of 'power brokers' deem correct.  That's just my opinion.

As to justices......regardless of who they are, I wish their terms were no longer than, oh, say twenty years.  In which case, Bush would have replaced Kennedy in 2008, Ginsberg and Breyer by Obama in '13 and '14.  Stevens was on the bench for 35 years, and was 90 years old when stepping down in 2010.  It's too much of a 'king (queen) for life' position.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2016, 07:41:32 AM »
Too often in our history, state rights have interfered with personal freedoms.  The list is too long, so I hedge depending on the particular case of what too small of a group of 'power brokers' deem correct.  That's just my opinion.

Except that some would say that it is the other way around.   The goal is, of course, to have both, have state sovereignty be used as the vehicle for the provision and administration of personal freedoms.   I think the emphasis on the Federal government as the avenue to chisel away at these concepts has been to our detriment.  I get it; it's the Twitter age, and we want everything NOW, and we're all entitled to everything at every moment, but that's not the way it works.  And the states - read, local(er) levels - are the way to do that.   If your argument is so good (whatever the argument is) you should be able to win it in California, Alabama, Illinois, and New York, not just California and New York (or Texas and Illinois) and push it through.

Quote
As to justices......regardless of who they are, I wish their terms were no longer than, oh, say twenty years.  In which case, Bush would have replaced Kennedy in 2008, Ginsberg and Breyer by Obama in '13 and '14.  Stevens was on the bench for 35 years, and was 90 years old when stepping down in 2010.  It's too much of a 'king (queen) for life' position.

I think someone here said this already, but the life-expectancy when the parameters of that post were created were much different.  My one beef with that is, the unpredictability of the situation helps.  If you change it to "25 Years" I think the system is more ripe for gaming, and unless you are willing to put it to a vote - which I don't think any side is - the uncertainty of term keeps it "a-political".

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2016, 02:04:08 PM »
So the first case out of the gate was one where Nino would probably have been a swing vote, and strangely he might have lent it to the liberal bloc. He was the one conservative with a real fondness for the 4th amendment, and this might have bugged him.

Quote
The case heard Monday began when a police officer in south Salt Lake City was watching a house where illegal drug sales were suspected, based on an anonymous tip. After some time, he saw Edward Strieff exit the house and walk toward a convenience store. The officer stopped him in a parking lot.

The officer asked for Strieff's identification, and after making a call, learned that Strieff had an outstanding warrant for a minor traffic fine. The officer then searched Strieff, found methamphetamine in his pocket and arrested him.

A Utah judge refused to suppress the evidence because the officer's search was triggered by the news of the outstanding warrant. But the Utah Supreme Court threw out the case against Strieff on the grounds the officer had no legal basis for stopping him in the first instance.

The liberal justices said they would be troubled by a ruling that encouraged the police to stop people routinely, hoping they might have an outstanding warrant that would justify searching them or their cars.

The conservative justices said only a tiny percentage of people in most communities have outstanding warrants, so police would not be inclined to make stops for that reason in most of the nation.

As luck would have it his conviction was vacated by the lower court, so a tie goes to the crank dealer.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2016, 02:13:39 PM »

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2016, 03:34:01 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:06:33 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2016, 03:36:55 PM »
Yikes.  I'll throw my vote in with the latter.
Latter? Of what?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2016, 03:49:54 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:06:44 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2016, 04:58:43 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:06:55 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2016, 05:25:18 PM »
He's wrong.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2016, 07:38:13 PM »
Hardly the first time Biden has been dead wrong about something.

Offline Chino

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2016, 10:53:25 AM »

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2016, 11:57:16 AM »
I'm wondering when republicans think the cutoff point should be. One year before the election? Frankly, they never want a democratic president to nominate someone, so you're certainly going to see some creep there. "Well, the campaign starts in 2 months, so we'd better wait." Add to that, the dead time would happen once per term, so that's 2 years out of a presidency that nominations can't happen. And what other things should a president not be allowed to do in a campaign year? Federal budgets can have long-term ramifications, so should that happen during a campaign? What about bombing brown people? Vetoing legislation?

This really is an untenable position the GOP is putting itself in, and one so patently silly that it's going to hurt them with anybody that isn't drinking the right wing soma.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2016, 12:09:12 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:07:10 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2016, 12:13:47 PM »
It wasn't a caricaturization, and it's undeniably correct. Nobody wants the other part to get to nominate a justice. And the average time for the nomination process doesn't much matter here. The GOP doesn't take 300 days to approve somebody, and even if they did they're not willing to start on the process anyway.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Calvin6s

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2016, 12:20:37 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:07:21 PM by Calvin6s »
I wish death upon Mitch McConnell and Pat Robertson in comment sections all the time. I'll admit that I'd be thrilled if either one of them died of a stroke tonight.

Online El Barto

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2016, 12:30:46 PM »
It wasn't a caricaturization, and it's undeniably correct. Nobody wants the other part to get to nominate a justice. And the average time for the nomination process doesn't much matter here. The GOP doesn't take 300 days to approve somebody, and even if they did they're not willing to start on the process anyway.

The Democrats have put their foot down on multiple Supreme Court nominee occasions.  Sometimes there isn't even an opening and they put their foot down.  The first time the GOP may do it (totally discounting the fact that they might just be trying to play hardball to get a polar-Kennedy type nominee), suddenly it is unprecedented.

And the Dems did it in 2007 the minute they regained power in the Legislative Branch.  Did it hurt them in 2008?

Where's all the outrage when Obama wouldn't even commit to a moderate choice?  Especially when his choice will be guaranteed to be framed as moderate as long as he doesn't nominate Fidel Castro.
All unrelated to the point you quoted from me. Nobody wants the other side to get to pick a justice.

But regardless, my preference would be to stop treating US politics like a 3rd grade playground. "But he did it first" becomes a dipshit argument once you you turn 13 years old.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2016, 12:46:23 PM »
Even if there were a timeframe in place (which there isn't), Obama is going to be President for almost another year. 

If the Senate gets his nomination pick and doesn't confirm him or her, that's their right and their role and responsibility in this process.  Their role is not (and never has been) to dictate to the President when he should or shouldn't fulfill one of his Constitutional responsibilities.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Justice Scalia Dead at 79
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2016, 12:48:04 PM »
Pretty sure you aren't getting any disagree on that from anyone here.
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