The Official Yes Thread

[Stadler]

I am sure both factions can still play the old songs good enough, but in regards to newer good music, it's telling that neither faction played anything from the last 25 years recently.  Granted, the last two Yes albums were both pretty blah (and that is putting it nicely), so not playing anything from those albums is probably a good thing, unless they played Into the Storm, which is a good tune.

I don't think that's as meaningful with the ARW lineup; what would they play? 

Into the Storm is an EXCELLENT tune.  I don't think that album is as band as that which came before and after, though.

[Mladen]

I actually really like that album. Like I said, it wasn't much of a success objectively, but it did it for me. The entire title track is filled to the brim with highlights, The Man you always wanted me to be is very beautiful and features some wonderful vocals by Chris and great bits from Steve, and yeah, Into the storm might be Yes-by-numbers, but it's still pretty rad.

[KevShmev]

Funny thing, I actually remember that from the Yes discography thread you ran a while ago. There was also a great Yes documentary on YouTube that dedicated enough time to all various line up shifts and I remember seeing that there as well. But Yes has been so inconsistent with their line ups that it's truly impossible to memorize everything. The hilarious thing is, if I recall correctly, Yes actually reunited with Steve and Rick to do the Keys albums only two years later. 

It's a shame Talk didn't receive enough attention back when it was released. In perspective, many fans would agree it was probably the best record of the Rabin era.

Talk is not only my favorite Rabin-era album (just a little better than 90125), but it's a top 5 Yes album in my book.  I played the shit out of that CD for a long time.

As for the Keys songs, I think the studio songs from them have held up as their best collection of new material post-1994.  Mind Drive always gets the most attention, and it is a really good tune, but Bring Me to the Power, Children of Light, Foot Prints and Be the One are all quite nice as well.  That, That is has some odd melodies, but has some great stuff, too.  That acoustic intro by Howe is fantastic.

I am sure both factions can still play the old songs good enough, but in regards to newer good music, it's telling that neither faction played anything from the last 25 years recently.  Granted, the last two Yes albums were both pretty blah (and that is putting it nicely), so not playing anything from those albums is probably a good thing, unless they played Into the Storm, which is a good tune.

I don't think that's as meaningful with the ARW lineup; what would they play?

True, but I was merely illustrating how both factions are playing nothing but old stuff, thereby making them nostalgic acts.  I'll be curious to see what new stuff ARW might come up with.

[The Letter M]

Regarding Post-Talk material, I agree with Kev - the Keys material is probably their best in the last 20 years, though I would put Fly From Here and The Ladder right behind it. If they had released all 7 of those songs on an album called Know (as I recall reading, was Jon's or Rick's idea), I think it might have been better received, and perhaps that line up may have stayed together for another 90's album, but instead, we got Open Your Eyes...

It's weird to think that the Keys songs are now 20 years old, though, and that Fly From Here is turning 6 this summer. Tempus fugit, indeed...

As for ARW vs Yes (Official), I would be more than happy if they just ironed out their differences and did a Final Union tour or something, with members from both bands, and maybe bring back other members for the tour (or select shows), and just go out with a band. Do a year-long 50th Anniversary tour, promote the hell out of it, and then retire the Yes banner once and for all instead of dragging it out with slow tempos. Hell, even if all they do is play their greatest hits for 2 hours, it would still sell a TON of seats every show. Both factions are practically in cover-band status right now, but a combined effort would probably look good for all of them, and it would be a treat ot see Rick and Jon play with Steve and Alan again.

-Marc.

[Architeuthis]

I would like to see them go out of their comfort zone with the staples. Play the masterpieces from the Rabin era too, like Shoot High Aim Low, Hearts, and especially Endless Dream! I guess that would only happen if Rick Wakeman was willing to learn Endless Dream, lol, which he very well could but would he?
 I saw the ARW tour in Seattle and the set list was very conservative. They even omitted "Changes" from the set list that night. I heard Trevor was sick with a cold or something, still a great show.

[Mosh]

I like the Rabin era of Yes. Big Generator is pretty bad but the other two albums are really solid.

[KevShmev]

Regarding Post-Talk material, I agree with Kev - the Keys material is probably their best in the last 20 years, though I would put Fly From Here and The Ladder right behind it. If they had released all 7 of those songs on an album called Know (as I recall reading, was Jon's or Rick's idea), I think it might have been better received, and perhaps that line up may have stayed together for another 90's album, but instead, we got Open Your Eyes...

Open Your Eyes is kind of an odd record, but I still like it.  The majority of the songs are quite good.

Re: Keys, amazing how things can change. I was big of Be the One at first, but over time, it kind of grew off of me.  However, I turned it on the other day and it was like, "Wait, this song is really good."  Again.  Weird.

I would like to see them go out of their comfort zone with the staples. Play the masterpieces from the Rabin era too, like Shoot High Aim Low, Hearts, and especially Endless Dream! I guess that would only happen if Rick Wakeman was willing to learn Endless Dream, lol, which he very well could but would he?
 I saw the ARW tour in Seattle and the set list was very conservative. They even omitted "Changes" from the set list that night. I heard Trevor was sick with a cold or something, still a great show.

That would be cool, but they probably can't afford to do that.  Their audience is already depleted, and not playing most or all of the staples would likely be too big of a turnoff for many who still go.

I like the Rabin era of Yes. Big Generator is pretty bad but the other two albums are really solid.

I still like Big Generator a lot.  The two hits, I'm Running, Final Eyes and Shoot High, Aim Low are all still great.

[King Postwhore]

Final Eyes is amazing.

[KevShmev]

Definitely.  I had BG on cassette back in '87 and listened to it like crazy.  I rarely listen to the title track or Almost Like Love on their own, but they are fine within the flow of the record. 

[King Postwhore]

My first CD purchased before I got my cd player for Christmas.

[KevShmev]

Nice.  90125 and BG were the first two Yes albums I owned on CD (I got my first CD player in late '90 and did not get into classic Yes until '92/'93.

[King Postwhore]

Christmas 87 was,my first CD player.

Big Generator was my younger brother's first concert. 

[Zydar]

If anyone's missed it, here's a pro-shot video of Roundabout from Hall of Fame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1-NsnlPc54

[hefdaddy42]

I watched the RnR HoF ceremony.  Very entertaining.

[Architeuthis]

I thought Yes had the best performance at the RNRHOF, Jon Anderson killed it and seeing Geddy Lee jam with them was the perfect tribute to Chris Squire. The only awkward thing was that Steve Howe and Trevor Rabin completely ignored each other on stage.
 Journey was good but it would have been way more appropriate to have Steve Perry sing at least one song.
 ELO sounded great as always, and to my surprise (I've never been much of a fan) Pearl Jam rocked it and made a statement!

[King Postwhore]

The Howe/Rabin thing did not surprise me at all.

Perry was asked but declined to sing with them live.

Pearl Jam was fantastic live!

[Stadler]

Pearl Jam's "statement" was the one part that I cringed at, but I recognize that is a very real reason they are first ballot entrants (if anyone doesn't think that "synergy with Jann Wenner's radical left-wing politics" is not a criteria for entrance into the Hall, well, ask Kiss, Nugent, and most metal bands).  The only "statement" I got behind was Jeff Ament's, with a reasoned, logical lobby for a ton of bands that aren't in the Hall, whereas second-tier artists who toe the political and aesthetic line are in (Laura Nyro/Talking Heads/Blondie/The Animals/Bob Seger/Tom Petty/The Dells/ELO/The Famous Flames/Green Day/Jackson Browne/Paul Butterfield Blues Band).


Why are Pearl Jam and Nirvana in, but the bands that made it possible for them - Jane's Addiction and Soundgarden - are not?   Popularity?  Okay, then, why are Maiden and Priest then not in?   Why did it take 15 years for Cheap Trick to get in (FIND ME a metal band or grunge band that doesn't cite Cheap Trick as an influence; I just heard an early demo from Motley Crue called... I forget what it was called, but it was as blatant a CT knockoff as you could get without having either Rick or Robin performing on the track).     

I get it, I really do (and though I'm not nearly as strident, I tend to agree with them) but the above makes me kind of want to tell Ed to shove his "statement" up his ass. 

[hefdaddy42]

I get some of those, but Jackson Browne and Bob Seger both deserve to be there.

And frankly, I understand Jane's Addiction not being there, as well as Soundgarden. 

[Stadler]

I get some of those, but Jackson Browne and Bob Seger both deserve to be there.

And frankly, I understand Jane's Addiction not being there, as well as Soundgarden.

Yeah, I'll give you Bob Seger.  I hate Jackson Browne, though, and I don't get why his nonsense is in, but Kiss's isn't.   Or why Red Hot Chili Peppers are in first ballot and Iron Maiden - who fill stadiums without an album - are not.   

But as for the other, do you believe RHCP, Nirvana and Pearl Jam deserve to be?  Because neither exist without JA and Soundgarden.   Nirvana arguably never gets a record deal without Jane's Addiction or Soundgarden.   

[Architeuthis]

I was just saying Pearl Jam made a statement with a good performance, even though I'm not a big fan. I get what you are saying about the political thing though.
 In a perfect world, Dream Theater should be in there by now. They are one of the hardest working bands out there and have never compromised their music or tried to make a political statement. Iron Maiden should have been in a long time ago!

[hefdaddy42]

I hate Jackson Browne, though, and I don't get why his nonsense is in, but Kiss's isn't.

Because Jackson Browne is an incredibly gifted singer/songwriter who has proved he belongs there both by hits, influence, and longevity, and popularity among the general public.  Whereas KISS has always been seen by a lot of people as a gimmick.  I know that you don't think they are, and I'm not saying they are, but that's the impression.  Also, they fall in that hard rock/metal genre that is never taken quite as seriously as it should be - kind of like sci-fi/fantasy in film.
 

Or why Red Hot Chili Peppers are in first ballot and Iron Maiden - who fill stadiums without an album - are not. 

Can't help you on the Chili Peppers, but Maiden - see the answer for KISS.

But as for the other, do you believe RHCP, Nirvana and Pearl Jam deserve to be?  Because neither exist without JA and Soundgarden.   Nirvana arguably never gets a record deal without Jane's Addiction or Soundgarden.

Yeah, but I'm not sure that the fact that Nirvana and Pearl Jam were influenced by Jane's Addiction or Soundgarden matters.  That's not enough of a reason to get in, they have to get in on their own merits. And Jane's Addiction was always too much on the outskirts to have a huge, HOF-worthy impact.  Soundgarden was probably big enough, but they didn't have the longevity.

I mean, I get that you disagree, but that doesn't mean that it's unreasonable.  To me, it's perfectly understandable.

[Stadler]

I mean, I get that you disagree, but that doesn't mean that it's unreasonable.  To me, it's perfectly understandable.

COUPLED WITH...

Because Jackson Browne is an incredibly gifted singer/songwriter who has proved he belongs there both by hits, influence, and longevity, and popularity among the general public. 

Okay, and while I'm the very first person to say - even about myself - that "that I disagree has no relevance whatsoever" we have to look at the difference.   For every Kiss and Maiden, I can put in a Cheap Trick or Journey, and we have to ask "what made Jackson Browne - or better yet, Laura Nyro - any more relevant than them?"   Or better yet, a Phil Collins.   And I'm sorry, but politics has a factor here.  Why is Peter Gabriel in as a solo guy but Phil is not?     Name the three people that have sold 100 million records as part of a group and solo.   Paul Fucking McCartney.   Michael Jackson.  Phil Collins.   Phil has the hits.  More than JB.  He has the influence (his drum sound circa 195 was ALL OVER THE PLACE, including on Peter's records).    He has the longevity; over 40 years in the bidniss.   Why?  Because Phil didn't toe the line the right way.  He had his statement records (the demo for "Another Day In Paradise" was called "Homeless", and he drummed for just about every Prince's Trust concert that wasn't a standalone band).   

I think my big beef is, 'hits' and 'longevity' and 'influence' seem to apply when it needs to, and doesn't when the cognoscenti say it shouldn't.   

[hefdaddy42]

I don't even know who Laura Nyro is.

And I'm not sure that politics has as much to do with it as you seem to think.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

[King Postwhore]

I would say it does.  Until the fan vote came into prominence, 70's bands like Yes, Rush, Journey were not getting a chance. 

Look at Jann Wenner, owner of the Rolling Stone Magazine.  He said decades ago Rush would make it into the hall over his dead body.  He despised that style of music.  Yet over pressure they let the fan vote have a say and now all these bands are getting in.  His magazine had a prejudice over certain styles of music.

[hefdaddy42]

OK, I see how that could be a problem.

But isn't that the same problem when Fan X complains about someone else getting in instead of their favorite band?  Especially if the one that got in is from a certain style of music that Fan X doesn't like?

[King Postwhore]

Oh yeah I got that.  It was the powers that ran the RnRHOF (The Rolling Stone Mag group) that used their prejudices to stop certain bands from getting in.  That is now a thing of the past.

BTW, the roar and duration when Rush was inducted was glorious and said it all.  I will never forget that moment.

[Architeuthis]

Oh yeah I got that.  It was the powers that ran the RnRHOF (The Rolling Stone Mag group) that used their prejudices to stop certain bands from getting in.  That is now a thing of the past.

BTW, the roar and duration when Rush was inducted was glorious and said it all.  I will never forget that moment.

That was awesome!

[Kwyjibo]

But as for the other, do you believe RHCP, Nirvana and Pearl Jam deserve to be?  Because neither exist without JA and Soundgarden.   Nirvana arguably never gets a record deal without Jane's Addiction or Soundgarden.

Not gonna argue with you about who's worthy to be in or not, mainly because I always thought that the RoRHOf was more of a joke right from the beginning and not to be taken seriously.

But just to add my 2 cents, RHCP are founded in '83, Soundgarden in '84 and Jane's Addiction in '85. So RHCP did exist without Soundgarden and Jane's Addiction.

And now please back to the YES thread. 

[romdrums]

I was listening to Going for the One on my way to drop my 2 year old son off at day care this morning, and Wondrous Stories was playing as I pulled into the parking lot.  I turned off my car, and I can hear my son say, "the end."  It wasn't the end of the song when I turned off my car, but I asked him, "do you like that song, bud?"  and he replied, "yeah!"  I was happy!  Between that and his new found love of Star Wars, I feel like I'm doing a good job as a parent. 

[hefdaddy42]

I was listening to Going for the One on my way to drop my 2 year old son off at day care this morning, and Wondrous Stories was playing as I pulled into the parking lot.  I turned off my car, and I can hear my son say, "the end."  It wasn't the end of the song when I turned off my car, but I asked him, "do you like that song, bud?"  and he replied, "yeah!"  I was happy!  Between that and his new found love of Star Wars, I feel like I'm doing a good job as a parent. 

[Stadler]

I would say it does.  Until the fan vote came into prominence, 70's bands like Yes, Rush, Journey were not getting a chance. 

Look at Jann Wenner, owner of the Rolling Stone Magazine.  He said decades ago Rush would make it into the hall over his dead body.  He despised that style of music.  Yet over pressure they let the fan vote have a say and now all these bands are getting in.  His magazine had a prejudice over certain styles of music.

Dave Marsh said the same thing about Kiss.  Multiple times.  "They would get in over my dead body".  Fuck you, Dave Marsh.  Write another meaningless book about Bruce Springsteen.   

Part of Wenner's prejudice is political.  He absolutely believes in his politics (activist leftist) and believes that artists are required to have a voice, and he feels it makes their music better.   Read the liner notes to John Mellencamp's "Words & Music: Greatest Hits" compilation (by Jann Wenner).    Wenner talks a lot about being "important", and with RS celebrating their 50th this year, EVERY ISSUE is about how they've made a difference politically (well, in their own minds; they forget things like the UVA fiasco).   

Granted most artists lean left, but after 2000 look at all the "first ballot" entries.  Almost every single one has an activist left approach to their music. 

[hefdaddy42]

I realize that you find that prejudicial.  However, we are talking about something called the Hall of Fame.  Some of those "artists with a message" that we are talking about, their music has depth.  Yes, you can just listen to it and like it, or you can get a message from it, or whatever - there are multiple layers to it, not just something to listen to in the car.

I love KISS, but there is no depth there.  It is surface level enjoyment.  And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that.  But are they just as deserving for inclusion in a Hall of Fame that ought to recognize real achievement in the art form as, say, U2 or Bruce Springsteen (just to throw some names out)?  I would think not, if I were ranking them.  And I like KISS.

Same thing with Maiden.  Are they a great metal band?  Yes, I would say so (although personally, I don't care for them).  But that alone doesn't make them Hall-worthy, IMO.

The Oscars are kind of like the Hall of Fame, in a way.  Is the biggest and loudest movie going to win an Oscar?  No, not normally; it will normally go to a film that emphasizes nuance and craft over bombast.  But it will make its fans happy and the actors and director will make a shit ton of money.

That's kind of how I see this.  It's not a perfect analogy, but it works for me.  And I'm not saying that's the case with all of the people that are late getting in (for example, Journey, Rush, Yes, etc), but that is one part of it.

TBH, I am shocked that KISS got in.

[Stadler]

I realize that you find that prejudicial.  However, we are talking about something called the Hall of Fame.  Some of those "artists with a message" that we are talking about, their music has depth.  Yes, you can just listen to it and like it, or you can get a message from it, or whatever - there are multiple layers to it, not just something to listen to in the car.

I love KISS, but there is no depth there.  It is surface level enjoyment.  And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that.  But are they just as deserving for inclusion in a Hall of Fame that ought to recognize real achievement in the art form as, say, U2 or Bruce Springsteen (just to throw some names out)?  I would think not, if I were ranking them.  And I like KISS.

Same thing with Maiden.  Are they a great metal band?  Yes, I would say so (although personally, I don't care for them).  But that alone doesn't make them Hall-worthy, IMO.

The Oscars are kind of like the Hall of Fame, in a way.  Is the biggest and loudest movie going to win an Oscar?  No, not normally; it will normally go to a film that emphasizes nuance and craft over bombast.  But it will make its fans happy and the actors and director will make a shit ton of money.

That's kind of how I see this.  It's not a perfect analogy, but it works for me.  And I'm not saying that's the case with all of the people that are late getting in (for example, Journey, Rush, Yes, etc), but that is one part of it.

TBH, I am shocked that KISS got in.

But, and I mean this respectfully, in the spirit of the discussion, and not at all personally, you're proving my point.  You just happen to agree with Wenner's bias.    "Political activism" is just one criteria, and Wenner is PREJUDICIALLY weighing that criterion.  There are countless criteria: 
- records sold
- longevity
- creative advancement (I'm thinking something that created a new genre)
- influence
- political activism
- subjective "talent" (I'm thinking someone that was just supernatural in what they did; McCartney)
- instrumental advancement (I'm thinking someone like a Van Halen who did something no one else really did before)
- industry advancement (I'm thinking like Zeppelin, who revolutionized the business)

Kiss loses out on ONE CATEGORY.  Maybe two (instrumental; they're not exactly Van Halen).  Kiss has the most gold records of any American band EVER.  They're on their 43rd year of active touring/recording.  Creatively, there is no one out there even close to them in terms of showmanship and whatnot.  They, specifically Ace, have influenced multiple generations of players; ask Coz! (But also McReady of Pearl Jam, Cobain, Dime, Motley, Anthrax, Portnoy, etc.).   I wouldn't call them "supernatural" in their talent, but they are way underrated as songwriters.   Look at the Kiss thread here; there are top 20 lists that only have a handful of overlapping songs.  And as for the business, they changed touring, they changed how bands look, they changed how bands market and sell their records, they changed how bands make money, they changed how shows are staged; it's a little known fact, but their road crew(s) are legendary for how they handled the early years, pushing back against the old-school "hard ass opening acts".  They staged their own shows when others wouldn't have them on the bill.  And they were notoriously kind to THEIR opening acts (Rush for one). 

What did Jackson Browne do?  Wrote a couple hits (quick: name one besides "Running On Empty", "Tender Is The Night", and that song about the roadies that no one knows the title to ("The Load Out") and that ends with the squeally annoying Frankie Valli impression ("Stay")).  Hey!  Did you see that shredding guitar solo he laid down at that RnRHoF ceremony?  No?  No.  Because it didn't happen.   

There are PLENTY of acts in there that are deficient in easily half of them, but they have the all-important "political activism" side down, and so they get in.   And I think that emphasis, that trump card, is wrong. Dimebag Darrell had a full face of Ace Frehley tattooed on his leg and he was buried in a Kiss Kasket.    How many people have Jackson Browne tattooed on their leg?   Not even Jackson Browne's mom would do that.   

[IDontNotDoThings]

Back on topic, I just listened to Heart Of The Sunrise again earlier today. It's even more emotionally powerful than I ever remembered it being. My opinion of the song had been gradually increasing over time, but now I think it's a Top 5 Yes song, maybe even rivaling Close To The Edge (& that's not a statement I use lightly).

[hefdaddy42]

Stadler, respectfully (and because I don't care that much one way or the other, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate), your prejudices here, and what you look for in a "Hall" worthy act, aren't superior to Jan Wenner's.  They are just different.

I could turn around your KISS vs. Jackson Browne argument, but it would do no good.  These things are largely subjective, and the items that you (or I) may think are most important would be deemed irrelevant by others.

BTW, I didn't say that KISS didn't belong.  I just said I was shocked that they actually got in.

Hell, Iron Maiden probably belongs in there as well.  As do Bon Jovi.  I mean, I could list acts that belong all day.  And most of them will probably get there eventually.  And if they don't, well, I'm torn on whether it actually matters or not.  Their fans will certainly love them no less.  But it's certainly a nice feather to put in your hat.