Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?

[IdoSC]

I understand this is a matter of taste and perception, but for those American football fans out there, I always point to the New York Giants under Bill Parcells.  He let Lawrence Taylor cavort with hookers and do cocaine (sometimes the night before a game) because LT always delivered, and is to this day STILL considered one of the greatest linebackers of all time (Belichick - a strict disciplinarian - says "best").  But he rode Phil Simms like a cheap farm mule, and while Phil didn't like it at the time and considered it unfair, in hindsight he has gone on record as saying that he was a far better player under Parcells because of it, and is now grateful.  I feel that fits with James a bit; he doesn't like being ridden, but that doesn't mean it doesn't produce better (arguably) results.

It's a matter of taste and all, but...here are some of the "notable" vocal parts from working with JP and MP as producers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRBP1rpE5y8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpMDEQSwXjw

And now with Rich/remote JP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2VrK1IpauA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-BO6s03acM

I always felt like they were just writing whatever would go along with the music, and on the last couple of albums it finally sounds like the songs truly play to JLB's strengths and nature, and have so much more oomph. Maybe it's just me, though.

[bosk1]

I know this is a matter of taste but all of my favourite JLB vocal performances have been without MP being involved. I&W, Awake, ACOS, SFAM, ...

Um...if you think MP was not involved in the vocal performances on those recordings, you are mistaken. 

[Prog Snob]

I know this is a matter of taste but all of my favourite JLB vocal performances have been without MP being involved. I&W, Awake, ACOS, SFAM, ...

Um...if you think MP was not involved in the vocal performances on those recordings, you are mistaken. 

Yeah, what the hell is that all about?

[Madman Shepherd]

There is a whole shitload of topics in this thread but I will say this.

I am fine with the writing duo as an experiment and for a special thing but I will be very disappointed if they do not go back to more input from JM and JLB for the next one.  Not equal, just more...

Also, aside from writing the vocal melodies on the songs he wrote lyrics on, MP did not have anything to do with the vocals until FII.  James has stated he recorded the vocals with just him and the producer up until that point. 

[Peter Mc]

I know this is a matter of taste but all of my favourite JLB vocal performances have been without MP being involved. I&W, Awake, ACOS, SFAM, ...

Um...if you think MP was not involved in the vocal performances on those recordings, you are mistaken. 

Not involved as the producer though, he wouldn't have been telling JLB how to sing? Certainly got the impression with Prater that he very much took control of those recordings.

[bosk1]

I know this is a matter of taste but all of my favourite JLB vocal performances have been without MP being involved. I&W, Awake, ACOS, SFAM, ...

Um...if you think MP was not involved in the vocal performances on those recordings, you are mistaken. 

Not involved as the producer though, he wouldn't have been telling JLB how to sing? Certainly got the impression with Prater that he very much took control of those recordings.

Doesn't matter whether he was the producer.  If he wrote lyrics and vocal melody, he would often tell James how to sing them.

[Peter Mc]

I know this is a matter of taste but all of my favourite JLB vocal performances have been without MP being involved. I&W, Awake, ACOS, SFAM, ...

Um...if you think MP was not involved in the vocal performances on those recordings, you are mistaken. 

Not involved as the producer though, he wouldn't have been telling JLB how to sing? Certainly got the impression with Prater that he very much took control of those recordings.

Doesn't matter whether he was the producer.  If he wrote lyrics and vocal melody, he would often tell James how to sing them.

I bow to your greater knowledge, I always got the impression that the producer would be making those types of choices. This is not to bash MP by the way, I loved him in DT/LTE and continue to love him in NMB and TA. It was just that those albums feature my favourite vocals and I thought maybe his absence as a producer may have had an impact on that. Maybe just a coincidence after all.

[MirrorMask]

I think away from the band JLB can try things out without being self-conscious about it. When he feels that he has something then he can contact JP and say "what do you think" and JP, as the producer (not just the guitarist) can say "awesome" or do you mind trying something a bit different. The difference is that JP is giving him lots of credit for that, saying he hardly had to change things and how great of a singer James is whereas Portnoy was openly critical of his voice saying "yeah there's stuff we don't like about him and he doesn't have a commercial sound but he's the voice of the band" basically "we're stuck with him". Don't get me wrong it wasn't all bad and MP did compliment him at times but calling him out in public like that was pretty off, honest or not.

Yeah, that's what always bugged me. You have one of the most talented vocalists in the genre, someone with an amazing voice, someone that a lot of bands would envy you (Do you know that James sang on the first Frameshift album? the second had Sebastian Bach, he had a falling out with the writer and I remember a post from the Frameshift dude comparing the two and basically saying how Bach was a diva that needed a lot of takes while James was a cool, down to earth and professional singer who delivered anything he was asked of), and you feel you're "stuck with him" because he hasn't the best voice to sing on Metallica inspired songs? geez.

I know James isn't everyone's cup of tea, and that he wouldn't win in a "best frontman" poll, but ask any band who has a reasonable style and sound fit for him if they would want him, I'd doubt anyone would just say "James LaBrie? no way, give me an average screamer that can do Hetfield and whatever young guys are into these days instead".

[Darkstarshades]

The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".

With TA, i don't get that vibe at all.
I feel they were like "Hey guys, we had been working on this and we got this, and I was wondering if you had any ideas, opinions or whathever, what do you say? let's work on it"

DTF really needs to stop with this speculative nonsense.

Blob gets my vote for post of the millennium with that shit right there.   Bull's eye.  That kind of speculation serves NO ONE.

It looks like you just went through the point of the post.
Nobody is speculating anything. The point of that is JM and JLB's lack of involvement and even said by JLb himself that they had little influence on the album itself. They obviously don't have JM just because there has to be a bass, it was just a funny way I thought of putting things because of the situation in which it is a fact that they were in: they had little involvement.

I thought it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek... I laughed.

Yes, this.

[Madman Shepherd]

The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".

With TA, i don't get that vibe at all.
I feel they were like "Hey guys, we had been working on this and we got this, and I was wondering if you had any ideas, opinions or whathever, what do you say? let's work on it"

DTF really needs to stop with this speculative nonsense.

Blob gets my vote for post of the millennium with that shit right there.   Bull's eye.  That kind of speculation serves NO ONE.

It looks like you just went through the point of the post.
Nobody is speculating anything. The point of that is JM and JLB's lack of involvement and even said by JLb himself that they had little influence on the album itself. They obviously don't have JM just because there has to be a bass, it was just a funny way I thought of putting things because of the situation in which it is a fact that they were in: they had little involvement.

I thought it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek... I laughed.

Yes, this.

Wouldn't be the first time someone on this forum overreacted to a silly post. 

Also, they moved JM's name to the end of the writing credits rather than in alphabetical order.  Another odd move on the band's part. 

[hefdaddy42]

Wouldn't be the first time someone on this forum overreacted to a silly post. 

No one at DTF overreacts!

Do you hear me?  NO ONE!

[FlashCE]

Do people like TC not understand how music is written? Obviously the rest of the band had input into the music and arrangement too. Just because JP and JR are the composers doesn't mean that they wrote every drum beat and bass line.

[BlobVanDam]

Wouldn't be the first time someone on this forum overreacted to a silly post. 

No one at DTF overreacts!

Do you hear me?  NO ONE!

There are two things we never do at DTF. 1) Disrespect Egypt, and 2) Overreact.

[fischermasamune]

I would like to know who decided to make the "You're acting very strange" part in Moment Of Betrayal drum-heavy. Was it a request of JP to MM because of the lyrics he wanted for that part? MM after knowing the lyrics?

[SebastianPratesi]

I've been thinking about this issue since the album was released. Obviously it bugs me that it was not a collective-writing album. One of the reasons I think Dream Theater is my favourite band is the democratic aspect of the writing. Same with The Cure (well, Robert Smith does all the lyrics, but their liner notes credit all of the musicians for the music).

However, I had this reasoning the other day (speculating here): if -when presented the idea of the album- James, JM and Mike didn't think it was a good project to work on or felt they were being rejected, I guess they would have said so to John and Jordan. Or at least it sounds likely to me, when considering the "MP's hiatus plan" situation (the other members had their say about it).

So, all things considered, I think there should be no reason to worry about bad blood between the band members.

[erwinrafael]

Given that JR in a recent interview seems very happy to finally be credited for his contributions, I have a feeling that the picture that the writing was a real collective or "democratic" effort may actually be the more inaccurate description.

[SebastianPratesi]

Given that JR in a recent interview seems very happy to finally be credited for his contributions, I have a feeling that the picture that the writing was a real collective or "democratic" effort may actually be the more inaccurate description.

Yeah, I heard his comment in the interview. You're probably right. Maybe the writing was more collective in their earlier albums?

[erwinrafael]

Given that JR in a recent interview seems very happy to finally be credited for his contributions, I have a feeling that the picture that the writing was a real collective or "democratic" effort may actually be the more inaccurate description.

Yeah, I heard his comment in the interview. You're probably right. Maybe the writing was more collective in their earlier albums?

Could be. Or it could be a business decision to settle possible copyright issues when a band member leaves. Or it could be a decision to keep group cohesiveness. I think their decision to finally give due writing credit may actually be indicative of...trust?

[SebastianPratesi]

[quote author=erwinrafael link=topic=45844.msg2097363#msg2097363 date=1454990789
Could be. Or it could be a business decision to settle possible copyright issues when a band member leaves. Or it could be a decision to keep group cohesiveness. I think their decision to finally give due writing credit may actually be indicative of...trust?
[/quote]

Yeah, many possibilities. I also think that maybe the credits go to whoever took part in the writing of the foundation of the piece; so, for instance:

• The Astonishing, "Along For The Ride": main ideas brought by Jordan & JP to the rest at the beginning - eventhough its possible JM and Mike made contributions later on their respective instrument's parts
• "Vacant": main ideas by Jordan & JM, eventhough maybe the others had a few comments
• "Wither", "Beneath The Surface": main ideas by John, although I think it's likely Jordan made contributions later

I'm intrigued: what do you mean by that last "trust" possibility?

[erwinrafael]

They trust each other enough to give credit to who deserves credit, rather than making it a generic credit to Dream Theater to avoid copyright claims or to have band members make a fuss about it.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think it has anything to do with trust (you could actually make the argument the other way in that regard, but I don't think there's ever been a trust issue there). I think it's just a matter of this album being a unique case with JR/JP investing so much time alone putting together the album that they felt it deserved sole credit this time.

[wolfking]

I was a little surprised when I read only John and Jordan were the writers, but I don't think there's too much to read into.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

DT has operated that way for many years, and I don't see them changing dynamics soon. It works for them, and they all seem happy.

[Darkstarshades]

No matter how much I insult DT, get disappointed and/or angry with them (this album is not the case), who am I kidding I'll continue to give them my money.

[Rodni Demental]

Do people really think James sounded great under Portnoy doing the really metal stuff like Dark Eternal Night, ITPOE. I think he was pushed out of his comfort zone and it sounded like that, uncomfortable.

TA for me is James best performance since Scenes so I say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

TDEN may have been out of James' confort zone, otherwise they probably wouldn't have needed to distort the voice to make it sound 'harsher', I don't think it's worth sounding like something you're not. But as for ITPOE, I think it's a fantastic vocal performance and I haven't seen stuff reminiscence of some of those vocal subtleties? (for lack of a better word) until TA. Eg. Lord Nafaryus, some parts of that songs sound like they came straight from Systematic Chaos recording sessions. Which that is by no means a bad thing by the way. 

[erwinrafael]

I don't think it has anything to do with trust (you could actually make the argument the other way in that regard, but I don't think there's ever been a trust issue there). I think it's just a matter of this album being a unique case with JR/JP investing so much time alone putting together the album that they felt it deserved sole credit this time.

Yeah, it could be. I may be one of the few, though, who finds the practice...peculiar? I'm just used to seeing bands giving songwriting credit to who deserves to be credited, and the way JR reacted in that interview is telling, but this more recent interview is even more telling:

https://drownedinsound.com/in_depth/4149776-jordan-rudess-of-dream-theater-on-working-with-david-bowie-and-new-album-the-astonishing

Important part:

"Q: Things are quite different now in the band, with [former drummer and founding member] Mike Portnoy seemingly leading Dream Theater until his departure in 2010. Is there more of a democracy now?

JR: Things are so different. John Petrucci is kind of the leader if you will, but he does it in a very different way than Mike did. There were a lot of good things to say about Mike Portnoy, certainly in the day, but after he left, a lot of things changed.

From a personal point of view, I’m really happy with the way it feels, and the new album. It was a pleasure to make, and it was just John and I writing the music. That felt right; I joined the band 16 years ago and although it’s maybe a little bit hard to decipher in the Portnoy days, it’s kind of been that way that it’s been since I joined. I feel like it’s a little bit more real in some ways for me - I’m not kind of put in the background even though I’m writing so much music."

[BlobVanDam]

So basically he confirms it's more or less been JP/JR writing the music since he joined anyway, but this time it was strictly just JP/JR, so his contribution gets to shine through more than usual. Does that sound about right?
This is why I'm not at all concerned about it being credited differently. The album approach obviously had differences this time, but it's not as major a shift as it might first appear. Personally, I think the album ended up better for it in many ways, it was largely the choice of the double disc concept that brought it down for me. If they keep this approach for a more typical next album, I expect I'll love it.

[ariich]

TDEN may have been out of James' confort zone, otherwise they probably wouldn't have needed to distort the voice to make it sound 'harsher', I don't think it's worth sounding like something you're not.

Not sure I follow this logic - surely the idea is to have a different sound? Otherwise on that basis, they constantly write music out of JP's comfort zone as they need to keep distorting his guitar all the time.

[BlobVanDam]

TDEN may have been out of James' confort zone, otherwise they probably wouldn't have needed to distort the voice to make it sound 'harsher', I don't think it's worth sounding like something you're not.

Not sure I follow this logic - surely the idea is to have a different sound? Otherwise on that basis, they constantly write music out of JP's comfort zone as they need to keep distorting his guitar all the time.

And JLB has used a lot of different effects over the years to sound different to his natural voice, even on TA.  It's just a way to achieve a particular sound, not that different to guitar effects like you've mentioned. He used distortion and some kind of phasery effect in the first verse of Behind the Veil too.

[erwinrafael]

So basically he confirms it's more or less been JP/JR writing the music since he joined anyway, but this time it was strictly just JP/JR, so his contribution gets to shine through more than usual. Does that sound about right?
This is why I'm not at all concerned about it being credited differently. The album approach obviously had differences this time, but it's not as major a shift as it might first appear. Personally, I think the album ended up better for it in many ways, it was largely the choice of the double disc concept that brought it down for me. If they keep this approach for a more typical next album, I expect I'll love it.

My reading of what he said is that it's really just JP/JR writing a lot of the songs before. "being put in the background" I think is a comment on crediting writing to the whole band before, when crediting to JP/JR is more real.

[BlobVanDam]

So basically he confirms it's more or less been JP/JR writing the music since he joined anyway, but this time it was strictly just JP/JR, so his contribution gets to shine through more than usual. Does that sound about right?
This is why I'm not at all concerned about it being credited differently. The album approach obviously had differences this time, but it's not as major a shift as it might first appear. Personally, I think the album ended up better for it in many ways, it was largely the choice of the double disc concept that brought it down for me. If they keep this approach for a more typical next album, I expect I'll love it.

My reading of what he said is that it's really just JP/JR writing a lot of the songs before. "being put in the background" I think is a comment on crediting writing to the whole band before, when crediting to JP/JR is more real.

I wasn't sure whether he meant in terms of being audible, or being credited. Both are true enough.

[Rodni Demental]

Haha... Yeah, fair play. Nothing against trying something new, I was just agreeing that particular example seems to be out of his comfort zone to the point that it can't be replicated live unless those filters are used on his voice again. I do think comparing it to an external instrument is different in this case though, but if we're going to say it's basically the same thing then I'll make a double standard for it. 

If I could articulate more (now you're gonna make me overanalyse an off the cuff thought ), I guess it'd be more like saying, JP shouldn't try make his guitar sound like a piano, it wouldn't sit right as a listener. (Not that I can talk, I love making keyboard sound like a guitar so if you have a means to make a certain sound, go for it I guess). But it feels like it's using effects to go beyond the boundaries of the player (or singer in this case), into a range or style that they can't normally pull off (performance quality would be subjective of course). Chorus effects, subtle pitch correction, minor enhancements and whatnot I have no problem with so I guess what I'm almost trying to say is singers that can't scream shouldn't try unless they can do it 'good' (or not come across contrived) because it's just not what they do well - which I concede is a bit unfair and if it were a rule would probably have many exceptions. Maybe JLB is one of these exceptions because I find the screams impressive in TWS, BMUBMD and even the live Octavarium screams, although less impressed with some attempts in other songs eg ACOS and TGP have moments that I'll call 'half arsed almost screams' that slightly miss the mark.
But I see it as a similar complaint as: This piano sounds like a casio, these string samples sound flat and lifeless, these drums tones sound dry. - All legitimate sounds and styles on their own but it still sounds unnatural for whatever reason to the listener, possibly related to the preconceptions of what they expect to hear when a certain instrument is playing.

[erwinrafael]

So JLB should try more evilmlaughs because he apparently can do it well.

[Rodni Demental]

Definitely! 

[Peter Mc]

ITPOE was probably not the best example of JLB being out of his comfort zone as most of that is quite melodic, thinking more of the Dark Master stuff in there which I didn't like.

I just think JLB is a melodic singer, he's not good doing James Hetfield tough guy vocals and not a screamer so I am happier when he is not pushed into doing that stuff.