Author Topic: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?  (Read 10887 times)

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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2016, 07:28:55 AM »
I also don't see why JLB should be questioned also for his effort just because he chose to record in Canada. Do people honestly think MP really made James sing better with his "coaching"? I don't buy into it. Any lack of high moments for JLB in the post-MP albums are more of a function of vocal melody compositions that recently do not seem to push him to his limits. And I think the songs are intentionally composed to stay on a safer range vocally. Why?

Because JLB is 50. They are writing the vocal melodies to suit what he can do at his age.

Spot on, totally agree.

Offline Peter Mc

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2016, 07:37:04 AM »
They did credit the music to Dream Theater on every album up to SDOIT, when it changed to just the four people playing the instruments. Seem to remember this was a public admonishment to JLB as Portnoy felt he was lying to fans about his involvement in the songwriting process.

I know it's not the way most bands do it, I just like it when they do. It just gives an impression of unity like "we're all in this together" and no one is trying to take individual credit. They have always credited the lyrics individually though so I guess why not the music, which they have been doing a little more since ADTOE anyway. Even on BC&SL, I'm pretty sure Wither was credited solely to Petrucci.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2016, 07:44:46 AM »
FYI, JR also mentions song writing in this interview around the 13:00 minute mark...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0cZAuV4gvQ

Offline pantsofeternity

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2016, 07:48:08 AM »
I also don't see why JLB should be questioned also for his effort just because he chose to record in Canada. Do people honestly think MP really made James sing better with his "coaching"? I don't buy into it. Any lack of high moments for JLB in the post-MP albums are more of a function of vocal melody compositions that recently do not seem to push him to his limits. And I think the songs are intentionally composed to stay on a safer range vocally. Why?

Because JLB is 50. They are writing the vocal melodies to suit what he can do at his age.
Spot on, totally agree.
Also, is the studio where JLB tracked the vocals near where he lives?  That would be a factor; getting to spend more time with his family instead of traveling.
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Offline pantsofeternity

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2016, 07:49:59 AM »
The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".
DTF really needs to stop with this speculative nonsense.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2016, 07:59:06 AM »
I also don't see why JLB should be questioned also for his effort just because he chose to record in Canada. Do people honestly think MP really made James sing better with his "coaching"? I don't buy into it. Any lack of high moments for JLB in the post-MP albums are more of a function of vocal melody compositions that recently do not seem to push him to his limits. And I think the songs are intentionally composed to stay on a safer range vocally. Why?

Because JLB is 50. They are writing the vocal melodies to suit what he can do at his age.

I think to better portray the emotions behind a certain set of lyrics, coaching and guidance is really helpful, and I'd like to think a necessity.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2016, 08:20:31 AM »
I also don't see why JLB should be questioned also for his effort just because he chose to record in Canada. Do people honestly think MP really made James sing better with his "coaching"? I don't buy into it. Any lack of high moments for JLB in the post-MP albums are more of a function of vocal melody compositions that recently do not seem to push him to his limits. And I think the songs are intentionally composed to stay on a safer range vocally. Why?

Because JLB is 50. They are writing the vocal melodies to suit what he can do at his age.

I think to better portray the emotions behind a certain set of lyrics, coaching and guidance is really helpful, and I'd like to think a necessity.

Once again though, it just comes down to your personal opinion of James' performance on albums he recorded in the same studio as everyone else and albums he didn't.  Personally, I prefer James' vocal performances on the last couple albums, especially on TA. Actually, TA might be one of his best studio performances ever, so I'd say Canada recording is just fine with me.  :lol

Offline RAIN

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2016, 08:23:49 AM »
The biggest problem I have with JP and JR taking charge in writing most of the time is twofold.  With no other outside influence (and yes, MP was HUGE on that side of things), they are just writing in circles, hence why every song typically sounds like other songs we've heard.  I'm not talking about style but the actual use of many many many sections repeating over albums for far too long.  And they taking the producing role (yes it's saves money) also means one less outside influence to give some perspective.
Second, as people get older, and make no mistake, DT are getting older, JP and JR are going to become more introverted in their writing with what they are comfortable with.

If only we could get something along the lines of the perfect DT song of all time "Nightmare", and mix it with the TOT album....prog/metal...oooooohhhh...but I think those days are way over.

Offline RAIN

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2016, 08:28:01 AM »
I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It seems to me that James has been very uncomfortable to sing around his own band members since forever.  I mean, just watch the making of Systematic Chaos (he seems pissed at MPs suggestions)...and ever since he's recorded away from the band.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2016, 08:30:06 AM »
Second, as people get older, and make no mistake, DT are getting older, JP and JR are going to become more introverted in their writing with what they are comfortable with.

Yeah I wish this band would do something different, that might force them out of their comfort zones... Oh wait....

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2016, 08:33:58 AM »
I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It seems to me that James has been very uncomfortable to sing around his own band members since forever.  I mean, just watch the making of Systematic Chaos (he seems pissed at MPs suggestions)...and ever since he's recorded away from the band.

I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from a drummer, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate. I'll put it this way, imagine the band working on a song in the studio and after MP does a drum take, James comes in and gives input on how he should be playing the part differently. How do you think MP would react?

Offline pantsofeternity

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2016, 08:34:56 AM »
If only we could get something along the lines of the perfect DT song of all time "Nightmare"
Which song are you talking about?
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Offline RAIN

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2016, 08:41:51 AM »
My big problem is the "James recording in Toronto on his own".   I feel like as much as James bitched about Mike being on his ass and telling him how to sing parts, that maybe that's what was needed.   I feel like - and I am not including TA here, but if rumors are true, it would apply here as well - that to some degree James is phoning it in.  Yeah, there are moments - This Is The Life; The Bigger Picture - but honestly, should a guy of his caliber and his talent and his standing be using autotune in the studio?  Put in the effort, sing it live and make it happen.  I feel like that is lazy, and I feel like that wouldn't happen if James was in a studio facing John and John and Jordan and Mike while he sang.

Totally agree and what I was trying to say....

Offline Gromit1710

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2016, 08:44:22 AM »
I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from a drummer, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate. I'll put it this way, imagine the band working on a song in the studio and after MP does a drum take, James comes in and gives input on how he should be playing the part differently. How do you think MP would react?
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Offline RAIN

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2016, 08:47:18 AM »
If only we could get something along the lines of the perfect DT song of all time "Nightmare"
Which song are you talking about?

A Nightmare To Remember :metal

Offline pantsofeternity

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2016, 08:50:29 AM »
If only we could get something along the lines of the perfect DT song of all time "Nightmare"
Which song are you talking about?
A Nightmare To Remember :metal
Oh, DUH, haha.  Yeah, that explains why I didn't think of it as "the perfect DT song"... I hate that song. (Just my opinion! You do you!) ;)
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2016, 08:51:27 AM »
I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from one of the producers of the album, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate.

FTFY. Nothing wrong with the situation from either side. People like to take that snippet out of context and extrapolate this whole imaginary scenario, as if being mildly frustrated and worn after a long day in the studio is a sign of the apocalypse. Mountain out of a molehill.

And I'm pretty sure JLB didn't start recording his vocals in Canada until ADTOE, so I see no connection there anyway. I think it was simply a matter of convenience and comfort for JLB to record on his home turf.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 08:56:58 AM by BlobVanDam »
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Offline Gromit1710

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2016, 08:56:43 AM »
I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from one of the producers of the album, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate.

FTFY. Nothing wrong with the situation from either side. People like to take that snippet out of context and extrapolate this whole imaginary scenario, as if being mildly frustrated and worn after a long day in the studio is a sign of the apocalypse. Mountain out of a molehill.

And I'm pretty sure JLB didn't start recording his vocals in Canada until ADTOE, so I see no connection there anyway. I think it was simply a matter of convenience and comfort for JLB to record on his home turf.
... and with advancements in technology/the internet, why wouldn't this be alright or more prevalent anyways? JP and JR both talked about how most of their collaboration with David Campbell was done via skype on AT.
 

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2016, 09:01:39 AM »
I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from one of the producers of the album, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate.

FTFY. Nothing wrong with the situation from either side. People like to take that snippet out of context and extrapolate this whole imaginary scenario, as if being mildly frustrated and worn after a long day in the studio is a sign of the apocalypse. Mountain out of a molehill.

And I'm pretty sure JLB didn't start recording his vocals in Canada until ADTOE, so I see no connection there anyway. I think it was simply a matter of convenience and comfort for JLB to record on his home turf.
... and with advancements in technology/the internet, why wouldn't this be alright or more prevalent anyways? JP and JR both talked about how most of their collaboration with David Campbell was done via skype on AT.
 

For sure. A lot of bands work entirely over the internet, because it's easy to share files these days, and it's easy to find somewhere with studio equipment and the software. JLB lives in Canada, and is able to record his vocals in Canada closer to his family. There's a logical answer here without the need for conspiracy theories. :P
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Offline LCArenas

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2016, 09:03:44 AM »
Well I see no problem with it as long as the next album features more input by MM, JM, and even JLB, even if it's in the lyrics department.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2016, 09:11:29 AM »
I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It seems to me that James has been very uncomfortable to sing around his own band members since forever.  I mean, just watch the making of Systematic Chaos (he seems pissed at MPs suggestions)...and ever since he's recorded away from the band.

Yeah, you could not be more incorrect about that. 

But anyway, to go back to the writing process as it has functioned in the band for quite some time, it really isn't that hard to understand for the most part.  Some of the details of this may be a little bit off, but in terms of the big picture, I am confident this is pretty close:

In the beginning, the four musicians minus the singer, would jam out songs together, work them and re-word them, do demos, etc.  This is the model JM commented on in the WDADRU commentary.

Eventually, they shifted away from this and were not really doing demos anymore.  They would write mostly in the studio, with JP (and sometimes others, but mostly JP) maybe bringing in some partial ideas that were worked up beforehand.  In terms of the "writing process," JP and Jordan would come up with most of the chord progressions and melodies.  MP's "writing" did not consist nearly as much of writing chord progressions and melodies, but was more on contributing to song arranging and writing his drum and percussion parts, and making suggestions for individual parts of songs.  Same with Myung.  And, again, most of that writing process took place in the studio together (with exceptions every now and then, such as Wither). 

Where this album is different is that John and Jordan got together in studio without MM and JM and wrote the finished songs.  I suspect that as to bass and drum parts, JP wrote basic parts to go with the music, but MM and JM used that as a baseline to either follow or deviate as they saw fit.  But the songs were basically brought to the band as "finished songs" rather than all four writing the songs together.  In terms of JP's and JR's influence on the songs, at the end of the day, it probably isn't all that different since JP and JR would have come up with most of the chord progressions and melodies in the past anyway.  The only thing that is missing is that JM and MM would not have had the opportunity to offer input, if any, while the songs were being assembled.  Their input would have come only afterward as they were writing their own parts and during the recording process. 

All in all, I would say that in terms of writing credit, it is a big distinction in how it is done in the music industry.  But in terms of what we as the audience are hearing as the final product, there isn't nearly as big a difference as some in this thread have presumed.  Given how the band has written in the past, even if JM and MM would have been together with JP and JR to offer input, I doubt we would have heard drastically different songs at the end of the day.  In the grand scheme of things, changes would have been relatively minor.  But having the writing process go the way it did on this album allowed JP to keep a certain feel and focus that he wanted for this project.  He had a specific vision for this album, and to make sure that he was able to keep that vision focused and keep the feel that he wanted in the final product, he felt this was the best way to achieve that, and it seems to have accomplished that.  So to answer the question in the original post, no, I do not think there is any need for concern.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2016, 09:20:01 AM »

Also, DT using the blanket statement that credited all the music to "Dream Theater" rather than individuals is not the way a lot of bands do it. Typically if the drummer of a band or the bass player of the band get handed a song written by another member and they create a part on their respective instruments, they might not be credited with writing the song. They would be credited for playing bass and/or drums on the song. This is a completely normal thing in the music industry, once again I don't see a problem with it.

This, actually, is at the heart of the current disagreement between Bill Ward and Black Sabbath.  This was also an issue with the reformed Deep Purple (excluding Ian Paice, and to a lesser degree Jon Lord), and latter day Van Halen as well (particularly excluding Michael Anthony).

Quote
I think when MP was in the band, this sort of thing was off the table for a couple reasons, (1) MP is a self-admitted control freak, so he would definitely want to be involved with the songs from the get go, (2) I'm sure money had something to do with it as well.

I don't know, I wasn't there, so I hesitate to speculate beyond what facts I do know (or can reasonably infer) but several of the documentaries HAVE Mike involved in the writing and arranging of the works.  For the same reason that "hanging a bass line" on an established piece of music is not a writing credit, being involved in the initial structuring of that piece probably is, and there is audio and video evidence of Mike doing exactly that.

Quote
As far as James recording separate in Canada, I think this one comes down to opinion of his performance on the last couple albums he recorded with the guys (before MP left) and the MM era albums he recorded away from the boys. Personally, I think James has sounded fantastic on the MM albums, so I'm okay with him recording in Canada.

I understand this is a matter of taste and perception, but for those American football fans out there, I always point to the New York Giants under Bill Parcells.  He let Lawrence Taylor cavort with hookers and do cocaine (sometimes the night before a game) because LT always delivered, and is to this day STILL considered one of the greatest linebackers of all time (Belichick - a strict disciplinarian - says "best").  But he rode Phil Simms like a cheap farm mule, and while Phil didn't like it at the time and considered it unfair, in hindsight he has gone on record as saying that he was a far better player under Parcells because of it, and is now grateful.  I feel that fits with James a bit; he doesn't like being ridden, but that doesn't mean it doesn't produce better (arguably) results.

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2016, 09:20:55 AM »
Sometimes I read about concerns from the DT community that I don't personally think matter because they don't matter with any other bands, and this is one of them. :lol

Most bands have one or two drivers who handle most of the writing. It's actually very rare for every member of a band to contribute significantly, at least based on what I know, and there's no guaranty that having more writers will mean better music. Also, while DT may have started with four or five creative voices, it seems to me like that number has been much lower for the past decade or so.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2016, 09:51:55 AM »

Also, DT using the blanket statement that credited all the music to "Dream Theater" rather than individuals is not the way a lot of bands do it. Typically if the drummer of a band or the bass player of the band get handed a song written by another member and they create a part on their respective instruments, they might not be credited with writing the song. They would be credited for playing bass and/or drums on the song. This is a completely normal thing in the music industry, once again I don't see a problem with it.

This, actually, is at the heart of the current disagreement between Bill Ward and Black Sabbath.  This was also an issue with the reformed Deep Purple (excluding Ian Paice, and to a lesser degree Jon Lord), and latter day Van Halen as well (particularly excluding Michael Anthony).

Quote
I think when MP was in the band, this sort of thing was off the table for a couple reasons, (1) MP is a self-admitted control freak, so he would definitely want to be involved with the songs from the get go, (2) I'm sure money had something to do with it as well.

I don't know, I wasn't there, so I hesitate to speculate beyond what facts I do know (or can reasonably infer) but several of the documentaries HAVE Mike involved in the writing and arranging of the works.  For the same reason that "hanging a bass line" on an established piece of music is not a writing credit, being involved in the initial structuring of that piece probably is, and there is audio and video evidence of Mike doing exactly that.

Quote
As far as James recording separate in Canada, I think this one comes down to opinion of his performance on the last couple albums he recorded with the guys (before MP left) and the MM era albums he recorded away from the boys. Personally, I think James has sounded fantastic on the MM albums, so I'm okay with him recording in Canada.

I understand this is a matter of taste and perception, but for those American football fans out there, I always point to the New York Giants under Bill Parcells.  He let Lawrence Taylor cavort with hookers and do cocaine (sometimes the night before a game) because LT always delivered, and is to this day STILL considered one of the greatest linebackers of all time (Belichick - a strict disciplinarian - says "best").  But he rode Phil Simms like a cheap farm mule, and while Phil didn't like it at the time and considered it unfair, in hindsight he has gone on record as saying that he was a far better player under Parcells because of it, and is now grateful.  I feel that fits with James a bit; he doesn't like being ridden, but that doesn't mean it doesn't produce better (arguably) results.

Good post, I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you said. This discussion has occurred here a lot especially since MP left DT, basically trying to define exactly how much "writing" MP did with the band. The one thing I'd say is that it seems like you lumped "writing" and "arranging" together. There's a pretty big difference, writers of songs usually get credited as writers. Arrangers can be pretty broad, if the producer (not a band member) makes a suggestion to play a chord progression twice instead of once, is he/she a writer?

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2016, 11:13:24 AM »
JLB is happy with the current arrangement, as are the other band members.

JLB sounds fantastic on the new album, the best he has sounded in a long time.

There is no issue here.
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Offline pantsofeternity

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2016, 11:22:22 AM »
^^^^^Well said.
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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2016, 12:34:38 PM »
It seems to me that James has been very uncomfortable to sing around his own band members since forever.  I mean, just watch the making of Systematic Chaos (he seems pissed at MPs suggestions)...and ever since he's recorded away from the band.

So you're basing James' comfort level on one video?

I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from a drummer, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate. I'll put it this way, imagine the band working on a song in the studio and after MP does a drum take, James comes in and gives input on how he should be playing the part differently. How do you think MP would react?

Actually if the drummer is responsible for the lyrics, then he should be the one giving James input in regards to the tone of the song. He's not teaching James how to sing. He's guiding James' emotions for the benefit of the lyrics.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2016, 12:36:23 PM »
I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from a drummer, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate. I'll put it this way, imagine the band working on a song in the studio and after MP does a drum take, James comes in and gives input on how he should be playing the part differently. How do you think MP would react?

Actually if the drummer is responsible for the lyrics, then he should be the one giving James input in regards to the tone of the song. He's not teaching James how to sing. He's guiding James' emotions for the benefit of the lyrics.

Great point.  And not only lyrics, but he likely had a vocal melody and delivery in mind when writing the lyrics as well.  It isn't like James wrote the lyrics and vocal melody, and Mike stepped in and said, "No, no, no--I don't want you to sing it like that.  I don't care if you wrote it."  As far as we know, nothing even remotely like that ever happened at any point in the band's history.
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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2016, 12:43:08 PM »
I really hope this conversation doesn't turn into MP vs JLB... But I'd say this, first off James is a professional vocalist taking comment from a drummer, I think if you keep that in mind James' reactions are pretty appropriate. I'll put it this way, imagine the band working on a song in the studio and after MP does a drum take, James comes in and gives input on how he should be playing the part differently. How do you think MP would react?

Actually if the drummer is responsible for the lyrics, then he should be the one giving James input in regards to the tone of the song. He's not teaching James how to sing. He's guiding James' emotions for the benefit of the lyrics.

Great point.  And not only lyrics, but he likely had a vocal melody and delivery in mind when writing the lyrics as well.  It isn't like James wrote the lyrics and vocal melody, and Mike stepped in and said, "No, no, no--I don't want you to sing it like that.  I don't care if you wrote it."  As far as we know, nothing even remotely like that ever happened at any point in the band's history.

I don't think it happened either. I also think there's a video somewhere with JP guiding MP with some of JP's lyrics, so this isn't anything new or unusual. It's the way it should be.

Offline Zydar

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2016, 12:46:24 PM »
Or the way it used to be.



:neverusethis:
Zydar is my new hero.  I just laughed so hard I nearly shat.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2016, 12:48:09 PM »
:footloose:

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2016, 01:01:52 PM »
I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It seems to me that James has been very uncomfortable to sing around his own band members since forever.  I mean, just watch the making of Systematic Chaos (he seems pissed at MPs suggestions)...and ever since he's recorded away from the band.

Oh, the same making of where he says "This is the most fun I've had in the studio since Awake?"
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2016, 01:15:35 PM »
I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It seems to me that James has been very uncomfortable to sing around his own band members since forever.  I mean, just watch the making of Systematic Chaos (he seems pissed at MPs suggestions)...and ever since he's recorded away from the band.

Oh, the same making of where he says "This is the most fun I've had in the studio since Awake?"

You're right! He did say that.  :metal

Offline Peter Mc

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2016, 01:52:20 PM »
I know this is a matter of taste but all of my favourite JLB vocal performances have been without MP being involved. I&W, Awake, ACOS, SFAM, DT12 and TA have all been really been with outside producers. I know MP produced Scenes but vocals were recorded separately by Terry Brown. Do people really think James sounded great under Portnoy doing the really metal stuff like Dark Eternal Night, ITPOE. I think he was pushed out of his comfort zone and it sounded like that, uncomfortable.

I think away from the band JLB can try things out without being self-conscious about it. When he feels that he has something then he can contact JP and say "what do you think" and JP, as the producer (not just the guitarist) can say "awesome" or do you mind trying something a bit different. The difference is that JP is giving him lots of credit for that, saying he hardly had to change things and how great of a singer James is whereas Portnoy was openly critical of his voice saying "yeah there's stuff we don't like about him and he doesn't have a commercial sound but he's the voice of the band" basically "we're stuck with him". Don't get me wrong it wasn't all bad and MP did compliment him at times but calling him out in public like that was pretty off, honest or not. Notice how he couldn't wait to proclaim the AMOB guy as the best metal singer out there as soon as that band was formed and he has not in the same class in my opinion. Powerful singer but little or no subtlety and totally generic Dio imitator.

TA for me is James best performance since Scenes so I say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Offline IdoSC

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Re: Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2016, 01:53:23 PM »
I also don't see why JLB should be questioned also for his effort just because he chose to record in Canada. Do people honestly think MP really made James sing better with his "coaching"? I don't buy into it. Any lack of high moments for JLB in the post-MP albums are more of a function of vocal melody compositions that recently do not seem to push him to his limits. And I think the songs are intentionally composed to stay on a safer range vocally. Why?

Because JLB is 50. They are writing the vocal melodies to suit what he can do at his age.
The Astonishing is the best JLB record since Awake arguably, so all of your points about Portnoy's directions, "safer range" and JLB's age affecting his in-studio singing are moot.

Seriously, SC and BCSL rarely had any vocal dynamic in general, and any truly high register in particular ("Fly now be freeee" only comes to mind). ADTOE, DT12 and TA have some of the highest studio register in Build Me Up, Break Me Down, Illumination Theory, a plethora of random high register on TA and more. He has never been more dynamic in style and range than he is in TA.

I know people like to rag on about post-MP, but saying JLB's vocals in the studio turned for the worse since then is preposterous IMO. He rarely "pushed his limits" from SDOIT until MP left or until he started recording his vocals alone, don't know what the trigger was for that. But his vocal performances are only becoming increasingly awesome since 2010. Octavarium had, like, a few moments for James besides the title track, but SC and BCSL were giant snoozefests vocal-wise and that's one of the reason I dislike to hate these albums. I have absolutely no idea how anyone could write that post after hearing The Astonishing for the first time this week, an album where the vocals are universally considered to be the highlight.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 02:06:43 PM by IdoSC »