Petrucci & Rudess sole writers; concern?

[Cable]

This may have been talked about before or presently, but I didn't see it.

And I'll probably get flogged for mentioning this, but whatever. Should we be worried about JP&JR writing everything for TA? I know the remaining members have never been chief writers. Concept albums also generally need a unified direction, so less cooks in the kitchen make sense. But I cannot think to wonder if it was a reoccurrence of BC&SL, with JLB also not recording at the same studio.

[fischermasamune]

What do you mean? That JP&JR and JM&MM&JLB will split?

[Rodni Demental]

Jordan has mentioned that himself and JP have actually been the primary song writers since he joined the band, so I don't think it's any cause for concern unless you haven't liked them since pre SFAM.

[pdurbin22]

No concern here. I think JP really needed to see this particular project through as it was his baby, and needed to be more or less left alone to accomplish that. He brought in Jordan to assist for his composition expertise, I'm sure.

The other members did plenty of writing on DT12 and I imagine we'll see that happen again for the next release. I think we'll also get a lot more drums n' bass for the next release! DT is pretty good about not doing the same thing two times in a row.

[Darkstarshades]

The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".

With TA, i don't get that vibe at all.
I feel they were like "Hey guys, we had been working on this and we got this, and I was wondering if you had any ideas, opinions or whathever, what do you say? let's work on it"

[BelichickFan]

I thought it was well known that JP and Jordan wrote pretty much all the music in the past although it wasn't credited that way. I  could possibly see some annoyance from the others but they aren't playing in front of thousands without JP & JR so they'll get over it if there's anything to get over - which there probably isn't.

[BlobVanDam]

Jordan has mentioned that himself and JP have actually been the primary song writers since he joined the band, so I don't think it's any cause for concern unless you haven't liked them since pre SFAM.

Do you mean post-SFAM?

The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".

With TA, i don't get that vibe at all.
I feel they were like "Hey guys, we had been working on this and we got this, and I was wondering if you had any ideas, opinions or whathever, what do you say? let's work on it"

DTF really needs to stop with this speculative nonsense.

[Bertie_Wooster]

I liked how Mangini inspired a lot of rythm stuff on DT12 so I hope he is involved on a few songs and then let Jp and Jr do their thing on others.

[Darkstarshades]

Never, at any point did I say that's how things were, Blob.
Obviously not.

But there wasn't that much Myung stuff there compared to ANY of their previous albums.
James himself stated that they weren't really that involved.

[erwinrafael]

I think it is about time that they credit who should really be credited. In the recent interview with JR, he said something that implies that he felt a bit unacknowledged for his contributions before.

[BlobVanDam]

Never, at any point did I say that's how things were, Blob.
Obviously not.

I know, man. That's what speculative means.

I think it is about time that they credit who should really be credited. In the recent interview with JR, he said something that implies that he felt a bit unacknowledged for his contributions before.

I think it would be cool for the next album if they jammed it out as a band ToT style (I don't mean that it should be anything like the album itself, just the approach), including JLB too. Write a fully finished song, including basic solos and basic vocal melodies before recording anything. I recall that approach wasn't JM's sort of thing, but they could always bring in their ideas from home too.
I know it's not as practical for them given their every day lives, but TA showed that they're open to doing things differently, so I think it would be an interesting idea to try for an album.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Never, at any point did I say that's how things were, Blob.
Obviously not.

I know, man. That's what speculative means.

I think it is about time that they credit who should really be credited. In the recent interview with JR, he said something that implies that he felt a bit unacknowledged for his contributions before.

I think it would be cool for the next album if they jammed it out as a band ToT style (I don't mean that it should be anything like the album itself, just the approach), including JLB too. Write a fully finished song, including basic solos and basic vocal melodies before recording anything. I recall that approach wasn't JM's sort of thing, but they could always bring in their ideas from home too.
I know it's not as practical for them given their every day lives, but TA showed that they're open to doing things differently, so I think it would be an interesting idea to try for an album.

I think you have it backward with JM. On the WDADRU commentary he explicitly says he likes the jamming it out method and gets shot down by MP.

[BlobVanDam]

I think you have it backward with JM. On the WDADRU commentary he explicitly says he likes the jamming it out method and gets shot down by MP.

I recall that, but I also recall something about him not liking or doing as well in the environment of being put on the spot for ideas, and moving along so quickly with the entire process in the studio as they do, instead of having time to let ideas develop over a longer period of time like with WDADU, IaW and probably FII, without the immediacy of a schedule. He wasn't shot down, it's just the way the band works now. TA seems to confirm that, with the album being written primarily by JP/JR. Obviously JM writes his own parts to the music (as with MM with drums), but I don't think he gets the opportunity to be a major contributor to composition on recent albums with this approach.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Right, but on ToT they weren't jamming in the studio--they had rehearsal space for the jamming and actually did demos. That's what JM said he liked. Whereas the jam-and-record in studio thing was what moved too fast (even though the jams are more spaced out in the latter scenario, there's less time to actually sit on the music and feel/change things).

[BlobVanDam]

But WDADRU/commentary was done on the ToT tour wasn't it? It's been a while since I've listened to it, but wasn't he saying he wanted to try the old approach, and it was said why they didn't do it anymore, therefore ToT wouldn't fit with that?

I don't know, I think I'm just confusing myself here.

[V_R11]

Well,the story is Petrucci's

Also correct me if I'm wrong,but haven't Petrucci and Rudess composed most of DT's music? Not counting early albums

[shredd]

I'm glad somebody started this thread.
I'm pretty concerned about this for a number of reasons...

Yes it's true that JP and JR have been the primary songwriters for a while, but even if they were the ones to come up with each song JM would always write his own bass-lines and MP/MM would write their own drum parts. Lyrics and vocal melodies we know were also divided by whoever wanted to them.

Now, with The Astonishing, we know that only JP and JR were credited as songwriters. It isn't too much of shock if JLB contributed nothing but this implies that John or Jordan wrote all the bass-lines, which is very concerning.

AND, on top of all this, MM has stated in numerous interviews that he was given demos of the music to write his drum parts.
Yes....WRITE his drum parts, and this has been acknowledged by either JP or JR (I forget which)

Now I would class writing all the drum parts as writing music on the album but no MM did not get a credit.

So yes major concerns... I really wish now more than ever that JM would speak up in his infinite wisdom to tell us how it really is 

[BlobVanDam]

Now I would class writing all the drum parts as writing music o the album but no MM did not get a credit.

But music copyright does not class writing drum parts as writing the music, nor usually the bass part (of course both with exceptions where they're a critical part of the composition). Writing credit goes to who wrote the foundation of the song, chord structure, main melody / lyrics etc.
So crediting only JP/JR doesn't mean MM and JM didn't write all of their own parts. I don't know what state the songs were presented to the rest of the band in, but it would have only been a guide for JM and MM at most. I wouldn't be concerned about how it's credited.

[ariich]

Now I would class writing all the drum parts as writing music o the album but no MM did not get a credit.

But music copyright does not class writing drum parts as writing the music, nor usually the bass part (of course both with exceptions where they're a critical part of the composition). Writing credit goes to who wrote the foundation of the song, chord structure, main melody / lyrics etc.
So crediting only JP/JR doesn't mean MM and JM didn't write all of their own parts. I don't know what state the songs were presented to the rest of the band in, but it would have only been a guide for JM and MM at most. I wouldn't be concerned about how it's credited.

This.

And yeah, this is not a concern because it's basically how it's been for years.

[erwinrafael]

I actually prefer it this way because I love seeing who bring what influences. And it also gives credit to the one who really carried the birden for composing the song.

In the case of TA, I remember reading somewhere that Mangini was given the demos with NO drums at all. He had to come up with the drum parts, so it is not as if JP and JR wrote the drum parts for him. Same goes to JM.

[shredd]

Now I would class writing all the drum parts as writing music o the album but no MM did not get a credit.

But music copyright does not class writing drum parts as writing the music, nor usually the bass part (of course both with exceptions where they're a critical part of the composition). Writing credit goes to who wrote the foundation of the song, chord structure, main melody / lyrics etc.
So crediting only JP/JR doesn't mean MM and JM didn't write all of their own parts. I don't know what state the songs were presented to the rest of the band in, but it would have only been a guide for JM and MM at most. I wouldn't be concerned about how it's credited.

This.

And yeah, this is not a concern because it's basically how it's been for years.

Yeah I get what you're both saying but I thought JP and JR would be more fair to the others by giving them credit where due, rather than adhering to what copyright laws state is or isn't composing music. And why couldn't they just continue to credit the music as "Written by Dream Theater" I don't something seems off to me but I hope all is well in DT-land so they can keep bringing up incredible music

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah I get what you're both saying but I thought JP and JR would be more fair to the others by giving them credit where due, rather than adhering to what copyright laws state is or isn't composing music. And why couldn't they just continue to credit the music as "Written by Dream Theater" I don't something seems off to me but I hope all is well in DT-land so they can keep bringing up incredible music

I think it comes down to how large an undertaking this album was compared to usual, and the process of JP and JR writing this album between themselves before the rest of the band put their mark on it. This album is a special circumstance, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah John Petrucci wrote the entire story and lyrics himself.

It's his baby. He was working on it for 2 years or more.

If Mangini LaBrie and Myung all sat down with him and said " I think this should happen or this or this "... It might get diluted from Petrucci's vision.

[Prog Snob]

Obviously they were given some leeway as to putting their own stamp on it. It wasn't JP/JR sitting in the studio with the guys zapping someone every time they played a wrong note. It was probably the same situation as when MM first joined. JP gave them a foundation on which to base their playing.

[Stadler]

The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".

With TA, i don't get that vibe at all.
I feel they were like "Hey guys, we had been working on this and we got this, and I was wondering if you had any ideas, opinions or whathever, what do you say? let's work on it"

DTF really needs to stop with this speculative nonsense.

Blob gets my vote for post of the millennium with that shit right there.   Bull's eye.  That kind of speculation serves NO ONE.   

[BelichickFan]

I'm glad somebody started this thread.
I'm pretty concerned about this for a number of reasons...

Yes it's true that JP and JR have been the primary songwriters for a while, but even if they were the ones to come up with each song JM would always write his own bass-lines and MP/MM would write their own drum parts. Lyrics and vocal melodies we know were also divided by whoever wanted to them.

Now, with The Astonishing, we know that only JP and JR were credited as songwriters. It isn't too much of shock if JLB contributed nothing but this implies that John or Jordan wrote all the bass-lines, which is very concerning.

AND, on top of all this, MM has stated in numerous interviews that he was given demos of the music to write his drum parts.
Yes....WRITE his drum parts, and this has been acknowledged by either JP or JR (I forget which)

Now I would class writing all the drum parts as writing music on the album but no MM did not get a credit.

So yes major concerns... I really wish now more than ever that JM would speak up in his infinite wisdom to tell us how it really is 

I think that could go either way.  While writing a drum part or base line is "music", obviously, in many cases the writer of the "music" is considered to be the one writing the melodies, the structure, etc, not the parts of all instruments.  Using a solo writer, Elton John, as an example, he always gets 100% credit for writing the music.  But he doesn't do the drums lines or the bass lines.  Melodies, structure, etc.  The bass & drums are supporting instruments around the music that was written.  I think it's likely that's the case here, that Petrucci/Ruddess wrote the "music" and MM and JM did their own parts to that music.  Of course, I don't know but that's my guess.

[Stadler]

I don't have any problem with the writing credits, as long as the five members don't have a problem with the writing credits.  That's their thing to hash through.

As for "writing your drum part/bass part", I sort of go along with the idea that it's not really "songwriting".  When I was in my band in Philly, there were two main songwriters.  And they would get the theme, the skeleton of the structure, and the melodies, but there were a lot of times when the string players (guitars and banjo) would have the opportunity to sketch in our parts; pick voicings, pick rhythms, etc. but in the structure and context of the entire work, it wasn't really "songwriting" as much as it was "performance contribution".   There are parts and pieces of things that I came up with and got incorporated, but I don't for a second think I should have any "writing credit". 

My big problem is the "James recording in Toronto on his own".   I feel like as much as James bitched about Mike being on his ass and telling him how to sing parts, that maybe that's what was needed.   I feel like - and I am not including TA here, but if rumors are true, it would apply here as well - that to some degree James is phoning it in.  Yeah, there are moments - This Is The Life; The Bigger Picture - but honestly, should a guy of his caliber and his talent and his standing be using autotune in the studio?  Put in the effort, sing it live and make it happen.  I feel like that is lazy, and I feel like that wouldn't happen if James was in a studio facing John and John and Jordan and Mike while he sang.   

[Prog Snob]

I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

[Peter Mc]

I think, from what Jordan is saying, from SFAM onwards that he and JP really composed the music for all of the albums, that's not to say MP didn't come up with his own drum parts and MM is not coming up with drum parts, I doubt JP/JR are writing all the crazy fills and stuff.

The way they have written in the past though is that everyone is in the room (aside from JLB for the most part) and therefore, whilst JP/JR are still the main composers, others are throwing ideas into the melting pot, either in terms of arrangements or maybe adding little bits here and there and therefore everyone was contributing, if only in some small way, so they all got a credit.  I also understand from previous that the guy who wrote lyrics also wrote the vocal melodies and these are more shared out on other albums.

For this album the other musicians were not in the room, JP and JR went off on their own and composed the whole thing and therefore take the credit for the music and lyrics.  That's not to say that they didn't then pass the music to JM and MM and say "these are the songs, now you come up with drums and bass to put on top of that to compliment the song"  but they did not contribute to the orginal composition or arrangements.

I actually did prefer it when it just said "music by Dream Theater", I sometimes get concerned when individual members start worrying about getting credit for themselves but most bands do it this way so it probably shouldn't be a concern.

[erwinrafael]

I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It doesn't come off as a group effort? It worked fine for the Beatles with Lennon and Mccartney being the main songwriters. If somebody writes a song, then he should be credited for it.

[noxon]

But it didnt just say "Music by Dream Theater". James was left out on most of the instrumentals - and on SDOIT and TOT he was left out altogether. ADTOE was particularly "splitting" where most tracks were just composed by JP, JR and JM.

I remember it actually being a sore subject when SDOIT came out, because it did appear at the same time as rumors started happening that James had gotten the final notice...

[mikeyd23]

Couple things -

JR himself said recently that is was nice to see the music credited to himself and JP since they worked so hard on it, and I agree.

Also, DT using the blanket statement that credited all the music to "Dream Theater" rather than individuals is not the way a lot of bands do it. Typically if the drummer of a band or the bass player of the band get handed a song written by another member and they create a part on their respective instruments, they might not be credited with writing the song. They would be credited for playing bass and/or drums on the song. This is a completely normal thing in the music industry, once again I don't see a problem with it.

I think when MP was in the band, this sort of thing was off the table for a couple reasons, (1) MP is a self-admitted control freak, so he would definitely want to be involved with the songs from the get go, (2) I'm sure money had something to do with it as well.

As far as James recording separate in Canada, I think this one comes down to opinion of his performance on the last couple albums he recorded with the guys (before MP left) and the MM era albums he recorded away from the boys. Personally, I think James has sounded fantastic on the MM albums, so I'm okay with him recording in Canada.

[Prog Snob]

I agree. I wish James was at the studio and having everything happen more naturally. With James not being there, it doesn't come off as a group effort. I feel like the band needs to sit in the studio and work on everything together.

It doesn't come off as a group effort? It worked fine for the Beatles with Lennon and Mccartney being the main songwriters. If somebody writes a song, then he should be credited for it.

To me, no it doesn't. Not if James is not actually in the studio working on the CD with the rest of the band.

[erwinrafael]

I also don't see why JLB should be questioned also for his effort just because he chose to record in Canada. Do people honestly think MP really made James sing better with his "coaching"? I don't buy into it. Any lack of high moments for JLB in the post-MP albums are more of a function of vocal melody compositions that recently do not seem to push him to his limits. And I think the songs are intentionally composed to stay on a safer range vocally. Why?

Because JLB is 50. They are writing the vocal melodies to suit what he can do at his age.

[JMSE]

The way it seems to me, during BC&SL, JM one day arrived at the studio and was like "Hey guys, what's up? I got this crazy idea like..."

And then he was interrupted by MP, JR and JP

"Sorry man! But we're done with the songs! Bass is missing, do anything you want, altho JP has already programmed most of it, you might want to stick with that"

and then JM "But... I didn't... and James...?"

And then someone of the other 3 "Oh he doesn't even know we're making something, but I'll send him the stuff soon".

With TA, i don't get that vibe at all.
I feel they were like "Hey guys, we had been working on this and we got this, and I was wondering if you had any ideas, opinions or whathever, what do you say? let's work on it"

EDIT: Didn't read the entire post initially. disregard.